Damage in SG: Vol.2 - Stuff other than Combos

[IsaVulpes]

PREEMPTIVE DISCLAIMERS:

- Since this thread is actually "Chapter 2", it may sorta reference "Chapter 1" (though not in any relevant way, just wanted to note this so you don't get confused)
- While this thread is called Chapter 2, it doesn't really have much to do with the other thread. Or anything. The other thread were 'facts', this is 100% opinion.
- While this post could go into the newly created "Game Design Discussion" Topic, it's a bit big for that, so I put it up as a separate thread.
- I'm aware that things like Assist scaling and damage on CHs are currently tested. I wrote this before said changes got implemented on the Beta; just didn't post it for a good while.

The thread is basically about a bunch of gripes I have with overall damage in Skullgirls; in Neutral, on Punishes, for Mixups and after Assists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

♠♠♠♠♠ #2 ♠♠♠♠♠​

Lemme assbump everything I said in Vol.1 and go with - "WE NEED DAMAGE BUFFS, BITCH!"
But - you know, not damage buffs on combos because combos are garbage.

I'm going to look at the current damage values for this, which may very well change -more or less drastically- due to the IPS/Undizzy thingies, but since we don't know how much dmg exactly the new stuff is going to do -let alone whether said new stuff will actually ever appear in the game-, I'll go with the old values. Note that every point I'm going to make will become 'weaker' if combos get shorter.

I know this game is vastly different to SF4 and SF4 is not a blazing example of being the best FG of all time in the first place,
I'm just going to use it as a reference because it's the only game other than SG which I know some stuff about.

NOTE ONE! - Neutral
THERE ARE TOO MANY NEUTRAL TOOLS WHICH ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY REWARDED

This is a very basic issue stemming from every single shit leading to full combos on hit. Every single shit? Naw, one small group of moves still holds out against drowning in the cutscene madness..
.. which makes them rather difficult to utilize properly.

- I'll just let raw numbers speak for themselves:
Juri SF4 standard meterless combo: 204 damage
Juri SF4 standard longrange pokes she can't combo after: s.f.MP(80) / s.f.MK(70) / s.f.HK(110), let's say "Around 100".
Juri SF4 raw projectile at a distance (Fuhajin): 50 damage
Juri SF4 sweep (actually leading to setups): 90 damage
→ Good normals she can't combo after deal around ~50% of a full combo in raw damage, a projectile hit deals ~25%, raw sweeps get ~45%.

Cerebella standard meterless combo: 8500 damage
Cerebella standard longrange poke she can't combo after: 6HP(1600)
→ Good normal she can't combo after deals around ~19% of a full combo in raw damage.

Parasoul standard meterless combo: 7400 damage
Parasoul raw projectile at a distance (Tear Shot): 375-400 damage
→ A projectile hit deals ~5%(!!) of a combo's damage

Painwheel standard meterless combo: 7700 damage (?)
Painwheel sweep (leads to 'not-much' due to techroll, but breaks armor): 900 dmg
→ Raw sweep clocks in at a stellar 12%

I'm pretty sure it's not too hard to see where I'm going with this. In a game where 95% of stray hits lead to 7.5k+ combos, the few tools which lead to nothing become comparably weak.

I am honestly not sure how to fix this, as you can use all of these tools in combos, too - arbitrarily give them extra hitting power if they don't hit as part of a combo (similar to Bella's s.MP only staggering if you didn't chain into it)?
IMO this needs to get handled by some means - I'm not too much of a fan of my opponent being allowed to stupidly dash into 20(!!) fireballs, then land a stray hit and be on equal life (..or better, as he got access to pressure, resets etc afterwards). I'm aware that 'ease of landing' as talked about in Vol.1 applies here too; a projectile is easier to hit with than a standard poke, which makes it natural for it to deal less damage, but TO THIS AMOUNT is .. ugh?

NOTE TWO! - Punishes
THERE IS A SEVERE LACK OF REWARD FOR PUNISHING

Even if I ignore sorta-related stuff which I deem plain stupid (your reversal being blocked meaning you're +25 and get run a free mixup via DHC to Cats/Install) because it doesn't *directly* have something to do with this, Reversals in this game are *way* too fucking strong.
Why is that so? Because they beat *MOST* options, are sprinkled with high reward, and punishes add a meager damage bonus. Let's look at things!

Spoiler

If I sit in front of you with say Filia, I have 5 main basic options: Low/High/Crossup-High/Throw + I can just block
We'll ignore trixx defensive mechanics (such as calling Updo assist, delayblocking multiple dirs, chickenblock, neutral jumping to punish throws, ..),
And just look at the most basic blocks (holding any of 1/4/6), throwtech and reversal.

Sameside Low
- Beats: 4, 6, Tech
- Loses To: 1, Reversal
Sameside High
- Beats: 1, 6, Tech
- Loses To: 4, Reversal
Crossup High
- Beats: 1, 4, Tech
- Loses To: 6, Reversal
Throwing
- Beats: 1, 4, 6
- Loses To: Tech, Reversal
Blocking
- Beats: Reversal
- Loses To: 1, 4, 6, Tech

("Loses To" meaning that the defender is not getting hit)

This is quite the statement, yes? Both the attacker and the defender have 5 options,
and ONE of the defender's options - DP/Super - beats FOUR of the offender's,
with the one 'attack' that doesn't get wrecked by this uber option losing against *everything else*.

To top this off, the *REWARDS* are skewed horrendously - Blocking correctly means you're generally still fucked due to getting locked down by an assist afterwards - and even if we ignore assists, you're at best going to be +2 or something, often on frame disadvantage either way due to blocking a deep jumpin. Teching means you're back in the neutral game.
.. Landing a reversal is *AT THE VERY WORST* a bunch of damage and going back to neutral - often it's going to be a full combo (after Fiber/Gregor/DHC/etc).

Now, *this isn't unique to SkullGirls*. DPs are strong, invincible reversals beat most options. How do other games handle this? Again, SF4 references -
Juri sits in front of a Ryu, has a bit of frame advantage, the following options are in her book: Overhead, Low, Throw, Block.
Ryu can hold 1, or 2, or Tech, or DP (again, we'll ignore stuff like Backdash, Crouchtech, DP FADC for Ryu, and TK Dive etc for Juri, to keep it as simple as possible).
This time, I'll list the expected Damage from an option.

Spoiler

Low
- Beats: 2, Tech - leads to BnB (204 Damage)
- Loses to: 1, DP
Overhead:
- Beats: 1, Tech - Doesn't combo into anything (70 Damage)
- Loses to: 2, DP
Throw:
- Beats: 1, 2 - Can't combo after (130 Damage)
- Loses to: Tech, DP
Block:
- Beats: DP - Punish combo (242 Damage meterless / Can go up *very* high [eg for 1 Bar + U2 you'll get 520])
- Loses to: 1, 2, Tech

Things are making sense now!
- Go-To option is to use the Low, as it deals the most damage out of the 'beats 2 things'-options
- Overhead and Throw are there to keep the opponent from just holding downback the entire time. They are more likely to hit (Go-To option for the offender is Low = Go-To option for the defender is downback) and deal less damage to accommodate for that fact.
- Blocking only defeats one option, but it defeats the strongest one and gives better reward for doing so (+38 Damage is a 19% increase compared to choosing the Go-To option; for 1 Meter+Ultra you'll get +155% Damage)

Now, back to SkullGirls. How do the damage values look for that? Generally, something along these lines:
- Low: 7.5k
- Overhead: 8k
- Throw: 7k
- Block, Punish: 8k

I'll ignore the SG Overhead/Throw vs SF4 OH/Throw thing for now, and just point at the glaring, glaring issue we're seeing here.
Low - 7.500 ; Punish - 8000. That's a 7% damage increase for punishing a reversal compared to doing the Low into hitconfirm.
This is about 1/3rd of the Street Fighter Punish increment, and top players in that game already complain about too low damage on punishes.
P.S. If we were to call the Overhead the actual SG "Go-To" option (as it deals more damage), we'd sit at 0%.

So the defender has an option which beats 80% of what the attacker does, leads to full combos, can protect you from damage even when your opponent read you correctly (via safe DHCs which sometimes even are frame positive), and if it gets sniffed out gets hurt for little more (or even the same) damage as 'trying to block' - a defense that beats 40%(-half as many-) of the aggressor's options, leads to going back to neutral (at best!) and has you fucked if you guessed wrong.

I'll just assume that this makes rather clear why SG players are obscenely mash-happy. Basically, it reduces the nominal 5-way-mixup to a 2-way one ("Do I reversal or not?").

How to solve this? Again, I'm not entirely sure. Plain increasing scaling or making heavy starters stronger (to make slow hitconfirms lose out on damage) has a lot of issues due to several characters' hitconfirms being no different from their max damage punishes (eg Filia getting in with [IAD j.HP j.HK, s.HP] would drown in profits).
The most basic idea I got would be to use the fresh counterhit stuff (which currently doesn't serve a purpose) and eg give a counterhit +100% damage - Punishing a DP with c.HP would be +900 Damage, punishing a less negative normal with a c.LK would be just +250 and as such not completely screwing that over, etc. Problem here is that, again, several chars utilize heavies in all the places, and this makes them a bigger threat - for example using stand Jabs against Filia IAD j.HP approaches is /sorta doable/ but very risky right now; with this change this turns further in her favour (Giving you +200dmg if you hit it right, while she gains +900 if you miss).

NOTE THREE! - Differences between mixup options

This is a far less important thing than the notes before, but as I'm already writing a Book, I may as well continue.

Remember how I said I'd ignore the OH/Throw differences? Well you probably don't because nobody is actually reading this, but let's say you did! Well, ignoring ends.

IMO having a Go-To option that deals (significantly) more damage than the others gives access to actual mindgames/reading.

Look at the SF4 example from above:
Go-To option (Low, 204) and two others, one which sits at 1/3 of that (Overhead, 70), the other sitting at 2/3 (Throw, 130).
This means, the attacker will always want to go for the Low. This means, the defender will always want to go for the downback.
This means, the attacker can get free damage via the other options - *EASE OF LANDING*, once more, dictates that these options deal notably less damage.
Next layer, the defender knows that the attacker wants to get 'free damage' and thus doesn't block low and instead goes for one of the other two defenses.
Last layer, the attacker knows that the defender knows, .. and goes for the Low anyways; we've come full circle.

In SG, everything leads to 1:1 the same combo for 1:1 the same damage.
There is no Go-To option. You have 4 choices, all which clock in at ~7.5k and just roll the dice, with the opponent doing the same.
There is, of course, still an inherent mindgame, but it feels far, far less pronounced due to the complete lack of any indicator what the opponent wants to go for.

How to solve? Up scaling and/or put forcescaling on more things (currently all grabs force scaling to 50% instantly, we could eg get something similar for c.LK - which would make overheads the go-to option and low starters the 'free damage' option)? This would spell damage problems for characters with a worse high/low game (eg Parasoul who uses 6LP/4HK for that vs. Filia IAD j.LK - though some people believe that the former is the faster one, this is not exaaaaactly the caase~).. I'm not suuuure~

NOTE FOUR! - Assists

Assists are honestly way too big a topic to ALSO be put into this already fullbloated thread. I'll just do a quick drop.

Once more this fancy 'ease of landing' shit, toppled with, uh, /function/.
What is a DP for? To reversal against pressure, to have a high risk/reward option that outprioritizes every other thing in the game
What is a DP assist for? To start a round with jumpback assistcall, see the assist hit, land, run forward across half the screen and derp out a full combo
WHAT.

Something is amiss here. We have an assist that outprioritizes every other assist, that serves as a combo extender, that makes the opponent wary of moving both in the neutral and when they're on the offense, and you can confirm hits of this thing into full combos from half+ screen distance? WHY?
An assist DP is a *WAY* safer option than a point DP as the point can protect its assist, making it hardly punishable - in fact, if you're at closerange and block it, you're -15 rather than +68 (and no, the 2f vulnerability and possibility of Doublesnaps do not outweigh this)
To balance this blatant safety difference, I'd think that it should be nigh impossible to continue a combo .. instead, it is EASIER.
Assists should *ASSIST* in the neutral game, not *BE* it.

If you really think that it is necessary to have invincible assists that cover half the screen and are braindead easy to confirm into combos from anywhere on the screen, at least force damage scaling on them, or have them hit the opponent straight into IPS stage 5 or ANYTHING~

Why are not more assists working like, say, Peacock H.Bomb? That controls space, but you have to call it in the right spots; it synergizes nicely with some characters (eg fills a gap in Parasoul's zoning, as MP Shot hits the ground where H.Bomb controls the airspace - then they intersect and then the Bomb hits the ground where M.Shot flies into the ceiling) while being far less useful for others; it gives you a reward for cornering the opponent and is garbage when you got yourself cornered; on hit/block you are able to move forwards but it's not enough time to just derp into a combo; .. ;_;

But as stated, this is just a very quick drop and I don't plan to go into detail on this. If someone wants me to write my extended views on assists, push the gameplay thread or open 'Assist discussion' or something.

♠♠♠♠♠ #3 ♠♠♠♠♠​

HOMPA LOMPA! - Other Things

TL;DR:
- Increase damage on neutral tools (To make them worthwhile, as currently combos are ~everything)
- Increase damage on punishes (Reversals are way too strong due to beating mixups + getting rewarded with full combos)
- Differentiate damage between multiple mixup options (Turn mixup situations into reading the opponent rather than dicerolls)
- Stop DP-Assist confirm into full combo (way2derp)

- TL;DR and Stuff

Thanks to:
- People reading Vol.1, which means they know what I'm posting here, as the thanks stay the same
- MikeZ for reading the PM where I sent him this

P.S. In case all the references made it sound like I'm calling SF4 a good game, I deeply apologize and promise that this was not my intention

 

[iLoli]

Damn, dem cohesive thoughts doe.


I think since you've given people so much to think about, it's only fair to reply back in earnest.

When it comes to the street fighter comparison, I like it, but there ARE holes within the opinion, such as the use of focus, FADC's, and OKI, all which enhance the punishing in it's own way, talking about one without the others are kind of weird.

I mean, in Marvel 2, your punishes weren't that much harder than your bnbs at the lower tiers, but then again, most combos didn't kill, and most characters neutral game were interesting but lacking, unlike this game where most characters have various tools that would be deemed outright amazing in other games.


I don't even think that the assist IS neutral at this point.

I just think we need to accentuate when certain actions are happening, Mike has put in "hey you've been hit" and "hey, you've recovered from an action", but the "hey, an assist has been called" UI is still pretty shit.

Maybe have the character's portrait slide very quickly a la Persona 4's awakening, just wayyyy smaller, and only under your life bar whenever you use an assist, and it would flash during your input of the assist, not when the assist is actually out.

I think your idea of having certain buttons scale to certain levels and do certain things is also a great idea, but it once again goes against what Mike wanted to do in the first place.

I think the reason we're even here in the first place is because we all wanted a game to kind of exist off this one system, so now that we're all here trying to better it with these (weird at first glance) implements, it feels strange.

 

[Dime]

The thing that really fucking confuses me about this thread is that you've been fighting me on 3/4 of my opinions for the longest time... Yet you make this thread that basically parrots everything ive said save for anti pbgc.

Ive stated that dp assists giving full combo are to strong for the longest time... Always heckled down by you and the crowd.

Ive stated that neutral game tools need to be buffed up open damage (cough painwheel stinger does 350 damage cough)


Ive stated that reversal supers were to strong ( i think they are about right now since most of the bad culprits have been slowed down or had their range reduced)


As far as everything else, i dont know about making damage depend on what starter you use...i dont like that at all.. What i do like is damage being very state dependent, ie a big chunk of extra damage on counter hit... Which is why i suggested all damage being done to characters that are coming out of hit/blockstun get scaled, but damage that doesnt come from a character being in one of those states gets full damage.

This means that RAW moves like projectiles will more than likely hit for full damage most of the time as well as longer range pokes and random assists (but assists still give scaling so its a give and take) and it means that reset moves will do less damage since the opponent is recovering from blockstun. And it will give a nerf to trios and duos but give a slight buff to solos since solos play off assist all the time. It makes sense to me and fixes a lot of problems.

So raw moves give full damage and moves that start combos quickly after the opponent comes out of block or hit stun give scaled damage. No need to say this starter does this or that starter does that... Its all about how you attack.

I just dont know if that type of thing could be balanced across the duo trio solo teams but it would be pretty awesome when combined with the counterhit multiplier at least for duos and trios versus each other.

And agreed with most of the points in this thread... Cause ive brought up most of these points over and over again to just fall on deaf ears.

Also, i dont think combos need to get that much shorter... This isnt sf4.

 

[iLoli]

Yours and others (even my own) fall on deaf ears because we are anus at typing down cohesive thoughts.

Having them and displaying them on the internet are two different things.

 

[IsaVulpes]

I don't even think that the assist IS neutral at this point.

This is the currently unarguably best SG player:

I'll just look at the first two matches:

Spoiler

0:08 - Jumpback j.HK
0:11 - Some Shurikens, a random Updo call
0:12 - Random BypassKnives ← Wow, no assist!
0:16 - Doublejump Jumpback Updo
0:20 - Runinblock Updo, convert into combo
0:38 - Tries to punish a whiffed assistcall with something other than a counter assist, gets supered
0:41 - Jumpback Updo
0:48 - Some Shurikens and Butt
0:55 - Jumpin Butt
1:00 - Dashin Block Updo
1:05 - Downback Updo
1:10 - Jumpin without assist, gets Lugercatheaded
1:27 - Runin Butt
1:30 - Butt (gets thrown)
1:38 - Updo
1:45 - Block Butt

2:08 - Butt Runin, convert to combo
2:20 - Block Updo (get thrown)
2:25 - Jumpin Airthrow ← Wow, no assist!
2:28 - Jumpin Updo, convert to combo
2:45 - Runin Block Updo
2:55 - Butt
2:58 - Random Bypass Knives ← Wow, no assist!
3:00 - Block Updo
3:07 - Block Butt
3:20 - Block Updo
3:24 - Random Bypass Knives ← Wow, no assist!
3:35 - Jumpin Updo
3:45 - Random Bypass Knives ← Wow, no assist!

His entire neutral game is
- Jumpback j.HK to put out a hitbox that beats everything
- Fullscreen Shurikens as the opponent can't do much about these
- Random Bypass Knives which is too fast to react to
- (Jumpin/Runin) Block Updo/Butt, convert on hit; stay fullscreen if it didn't
The entire supposedly 'risky' part of the neutral (going in, trying to land a hit, trying to avoid opponents options at closer ranges) is handled by Updo/Butt.
Assistless game only happens at fullscreen where you don't have a use for the support, if you have an otherwise unavoidable approach (Bypassknives),
or when you're forced to (assist locked out) - which generally means jumpback doublejumpback j.HK to gain space and kill the lockout timer so you can continue with the assists.
At some point the opponent gets touched from Assist>Convert and dies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yet you make this thread that basically parrots everything ive said

Okay I'll admit, everything in this thread was not actually thought up, but rather meticulously pieced together by following your posts and copying everything you said.

Am I supposed to feel insulted?

Ive stated that dp assists giving full combo are to strong for the longest time... Always heckled down by you

Find me the posts where I state that

Ive stated that reversal supers were to strong

This here is a good example as to why your shit falls to deaf ears. Asking for the same changes for different reasons.
Or even asking for different things, but thinking you ask for the same. Or asking for the opposite and thinking you 'said this from the start'.

In the hitstop thread, you complain about supers:

I was never talking about combo situations. Getting a super mashed on me because I dropped a combo is extremely viable to me... It's my fault for dropping the combo. As I said before, getting my normal/special moves supered through isn't the problem. It's getting dashes, prejump frames, forward dash inputs before the dash comes out... Basically everything that isn't low or high block, beaten, that bothers me and really shouldn't be in the game.

This has nothing to do at all with anything I say in this thread. It's still "Supers are too strong", but it's not about Reversal Supers (actually it's explicitly NOT about reversal supers). It's also a really stupid opinion to have, because -as noted 523598349573475 times- there's very little difference between you dashing into a Fenrir and being unable to block it postflash vs you dashing into an Updo and being unable to block it at all (but that's a different topic, don't go on here about this).

Or, let me give you a better example WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU HOW DARE YOU EVEN:
The alpha version of this thread is to be found here: 9th September.
You respond to my post with

I don't think there should be any further punishment for mashing. [..]
reversal mashes are already super risky. Like literally if you have good burst baits it puts the fear of god into you for mashing... YOU WILL GET OWNED. especially offline if you are a stick player cause everyone can hear you mashing.

But even online, good burst baits destroy defenses considerably ESPECIALLY against all the mashy reversal characters...

YEAH, THIS CLEARLY READS LIKE "REVERSALS ARE TOO STRONG".

Funnily enough, you later (as in, recently) started spouting that Burstbaits are 'whack'.

And agreed with most of the points in this thread... Cause ive brought up most of these points over and over again to just fall on deaf ears.

If you contradict yourself on every topic within a few month, it's pretty easy to claim that you said everything from the start -
If you just have multiple, contradicting opinions on every topic, you're sure to have said something I agree with at some point.

I'll start doing this too, what a foolproof solution!
Question: "Is 5, 6, or 7 the bigger number"?
Answer of candidate A: "7!"
Answer of candidate A, a day later: "5!"
Answer of candidate A, another day later: "6!"
Answer of candidate B on the fourth day: "7, because lalala reasons and shit"
Quizmaster: "7 is the correct solution! Good job, Candidate B!"
Candidate A: "What? I said this from the start! Why did I fall to deaf ears?"

Just, .. Wow.

There is a reason for people flat refusing to read your posts properly, which I told you 2 Months Ago.
If you don't want to improve the readability of your posts because "you're not here to win a beauty contest", you'll have to live with people skipping them.

 

[iLoli]

@IsaVulpes:

There are two problems with that.

1:The matchup is Val V Bella, where Val is supposed to chill out in the air with her huge hitbox normals.

2:This is online, offline, air bypasses get air grabbed, air normaled, or supered.

Fullscreen Shurikens should be Reflected, just because we don't see Deskillsage do it doesn't mean it's not an option.

I do admit that Val going in is protected AMAZINGLY by assists, but that's not the assist, that's Val's dumbass jump forward airdash back idea which always seemed damn dumb.

Filia/Pea/Fortune can also do it, but not to the same degree.

Also, just because we watch Deskillsage not try to really adapt to Duck but try to beat Duck at his own game doesn't mean it doesn't work.

I mean, are people complaining about assists in general, or Double Butt/Updo, because to me, I haven't seen anyone go 'man squigs dp assist too stronk' or "man fuck napalm pillar" or "man diamond drop assist is too dumb".


Also, we can ask Deskillsage why he got tagged by so many assists, was it because of the speed of the assist, or him just not knowing when they were coming?

 

[IsaVulpes]

Assist scaling on 50%, paired with shorter combos in general (so it actually matters, rather than reducing combo damage from 7k to 6k as most of your hits happen on full scaling in the first place) looks alright 'in general' to me, with further fixes necessary to the prime offenders (Butt being the #1 - Reversal, Get in, Zone Out, Lockdown on block and full combos on hit; all in one package .. WHY.) being necessary.

But as said, I'd rather move the Assist Discussion into Gameplay / GameDesign / a new thread, as it's too big a topic to not drown out my three other points. Choose one and @mention me there, I guess.

 

[Dime]

Lol... Well you can certainly take things out of context. As far as refuting your shit... I aint got time to sit here and look all over sh to dig up your posts and meticulously re-read that shit.

I will just say that some of my posts were made at different times IN A GAME THAT IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING. i dont think i have to go any further into it than that. However ive never said that assists giving full combo was a good thing, and when i say that reversal supers were to good i wasnt specifically at that time talking about supers used coming out of hitstun to beat moves.. I was simply talking about supers that are invincible on the first frame of flash and that are unblockable post flash.

And YES, that post is now outdated. Because many of these offending supers have had the unblockable range on them nerfed. Sooo... Yeah it turns out that i wasnt so crazy... Because what i was complaining about DID INDEED GET CHANGED.

But pls continue to go back months and bring back posts that have little bearing on what is currently happening in the game (actually since i have to spell things out to you, no dont do that it is redundant to bring up shit from different versions of the game that no longer apply)

As far as burst baits being wack and good.. I already stated the reasons:

Offline when one can hear the opponent mashing, they are GOOD.
Online when an opponent relies upon mashing super predictably to get out of resets they are good.
Online using the same burst bait to try and beat out mashing is bad, once an anti mash burst bait has been used it probably wont be very effective again UNLESS there is an actual mixup that FORCES the other player to press buttons. The only mixup that FORCES button presses are throw mixups cause they have to be teched or invincible moved through... Both require buttons. And they are hard to come by because in order to be able to throw the opponent you have to be very close, but being very close opens one up to a burst hitting them which negates the mixup.

SO, those kinds of good burst baits arent actually burst baits, they are burst mixups... Burst baits are just people with random burst gimmicks trying to get lucky while there opponent is mashing the first time. Chairman got me with a new one today in one of our matches... We played 35 games, he tried it a second time... It didnt work because the burst bait was a gimmick, it didnt force buttons.

When i said burst baits are wack i was referring to that type of burst bait which is literally 98% of all the burst baits ive seen used against me or even on video... Ie the type designed to discourage super mashing but having absolutely no bite in the form of a mixup when the opponent doesnt mash.

Long story short? Burst baits are wack and are good. It depends on which type you are using and they certainly didnt apply to the cases i was making because the supers werent being mashed out of resets.

This entire post will probably be made to say something it doesnt... Whatever. Point is, yeah all that shit you said up there ive been saying for awhile and I've never gone back on any of those things, with the exception of supers since they have been recently fixed.

-edit

And also, even though it may seem so, I'm not like, mad at you for this thread/post, it agrees with much of what ive said. What im mad at is the near 180 you are making in it after acting like ive been stupid for all these months for wanting these things... THATS what pisses me off and i think i have a right to be pissed when someone says im being stupid for wanting imbalanced supers to be balanced and that assist confirms need to be nerfed somehow and that neutral game moves could use more damage... Only to have that person turn around and make a thread and say.... "After considerable contemplation... I think" and have everything being said, be shit that ive been saying.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

After reading this with all it's examples that I assume I can have faith in, considering Isa's prestigious level of statistical memorization and/or research speed, I'm starting to think that Vivit's suggestion for altered scaling that he made in the Game Design Discussion thread may be considerably more applicable that I had given it credit for.

 

[IsaVulpes]

when i say that reversal supers were to good i wasnt specifically at that time talking about supers used coming out of hitstun to beat moves.. I was simply talking about supers that are invincible on the first frame of flash and that are unblockable post flash.

And YES, that post is now outdated. Because many of these offending supers have had the unblockable range on them nerfed. Sooo... Yeah it turns out that i wasnt so crazy... Because what i was complaining about DID INDEED GET CHANGED.

Can you not decipher your own posts?

I quoted two posts by you.
The first is "Reversal Supers are fine, it's my own fault when I get hit by those. I really hate how you can do Super in Neutral though, eg as a Dashin-Dynamo (hard to react to), or just seeing the opponent dash at you and supering him in the face (it's hard to instantly block after a dash)". As I noted, this has nothing to do with this thread at all, aside from the first part being the opposite of what you claim to have said (Reversal Supers are fine != Reversal Supers should get nerfed).
The second is "I don't think Reversals should get any nerfing - they're already weak enough, they're very susceptible to burstbaits, there shouldn't be any further punishment for mashing". As noted, this is the OPPOSITE of what you claim to have said (that one should nerf Reversals supers) once more, and NO, NOTHING ABOUT THIS GOT CHANGED.

I AM SAYING: "REVERSALS ARE TOO GOOD."
YOU HAVE TWO POSTS, ONE FROM LAST WEEK, ONE FROM TWO MONTHS AGO, WHERE YOU SAY: "REVERSALS ARE FINE AS-IS."
AND REVERSALS ONLY GOT *WORSE* SINCE THEN (with the Hitstop only applying at very close range, and the potential CH damage)

NO, YOU DIDN'T ASK FOR REVERSAL NERFS. NOWHERE.

~~~

IN THIS VERY POST I SAY:
- Lower Damage from Combos
- Increase Damage on Neutral tools
- Make mashing worse via increased punish damage
AND TWO POSTS LATER YOU AGREE ON THE NEUTRAL THING, THEN CLEARLY STATE THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE -
SO YOU DO NOT NOT NOT NOT ASK FOR WORSENING MASHES VIA INCREASED PUNISH DAMAGE, NO. YOU BLATANTLY DISAGREE WITH IT.

~~~

And you even disagree in this very thread with me on the "Different damage on Starters" thing, as you also did HERE,
So how can you claim that you "said all that shit up there for a while"?

As far as refuting your shit... I aint got time to sit here and look all over sh to dig up your posts and meticulously re-read that shit.

You have enough time to write unreadable essays in every single thread on this forum,
But not enough time to find any proof for your laughable backhanded insults? What's up with your priorities?

Either don't take a piss at me, or find ANY post. If you have a decently functioning head, it's not too hard to remember single words of said posts, then search for them.
I'm not aware of ever stating that Updo assist wasn't too strong, and if I did, you'll have to go search for posts from 2011.
Well, given the way you communicate, I'll plain assume that you see "Updo is broken" and read it as "Updo is too weak", which would explain this mystery.

 

[Dime]

@IsaVulpes

I dont think i can respond to that post... It makes little sense. You will no doubt blame that on me because you were quoting me.. But i honestly cant tell where you are speaking in "my" words and when you are speaking in yours.

But that portion of my post that you quoted, that is perfect just re-read that till you get it.

Oh i see where the point of contention is...semantics once again.... Sigh.

Because i said reversal super you assume that i mean supers used as reversals... Well, no i dont specifically mean supers that are used as reversals, i mean supers that COULD BE used as reversals (in other words, invincible) the same way mike talks about them. Do you remember months ago when he said that even though lk hornet bomber has invincible frames that it doesnt have startup invulnerability and i quote "it isnt a reversal"

Well i was using it the same way for supers. I can see the confusion that might have caused, im sorry.

End conversation.

 

[Number 13]

Edited/Nuked posts in this thread to keep thread in track. I was being lenient too with the post modifications because despite things escalating quickly, arguments is a natural thing when conflicting views crash (Even if one can do well without the plethora of Caps Locks/Snide remarks) that can promote wholesome discussion, however that being said...

Pretty sure you can debate your arguments without the necessity of personal insults towards the opposing arguing party to magnify on why your argument is correct. Thanks, now lets keep this thread somewhat stable now otherwise take it to the PM conversations.

 

[keninblack]

So mad I showed up too late, but even now what the fuck haha

 

[View619]

Vulpes and Dime in the same thread will always blow up. Just gotta live with it.

 

[iLoli]

So mad I showed up too late, but even now what the fuck haha

Next time I'll call you.

 

[Dime]

So mad I showed up too late, but even now what the fuck haha

Lol you should have seen it before all the mod edits coming in and ruining perfectly good insults. Shit was cray.

 

[Jason]

Point 1 - About Neutral tools I agree. Stray hits that don't lead into a combo should be more damaging, IMO. Its pretty easy to fix.
- Reduce the undizzy limit to make combos shorter
- Increase the base damage on every move in the game to keep combo damage the same

However this is kind of a game-design choice. If MikeZ wants the game to emphasize converting stray hits into full damage combos (which is a pretty damn important skill in Marvel 2 and Marvel 3) then that's how the game will play.

Point 2 - I don't really think the game needs anything to make offense easier, since the game already heavily favors the attacker. If you make reversals even more risky, the game will further slide towards "one touch and you're probably going to lose" gameplay, and its already pretty close to that now.

Point 3 - Comes back to point 2, really. Mixups in air-dasher style games are much stronger then they are in Streetfigther style games. That's a deliberate design choice to favor offense and good movement (to avoid mixup situations entirely rather then trying to block) over blocking.

Point 4 - Assist conversions could use to be less rewarding since they're so safe. Increased damage scaling on assists is a good way to achieve that (particularly if combos get shorter as in point 1, it will become more significant)

With that said, attacking from behind the safety of your assist is not going to go away. This is another style choice for the game. Marvel 2 was heavily defined by strong defensive assists like Captain Commando, Cyclops and Psylock. They were a bit harder to convert into a combo but they were no less dominant for dictating the pace of the neutral game. Justin Wong pretty much made his entire MvC2 career off of good assist calls and a lot of evasive movement with Storm and I think its cool that SG supports that kind of playstyle even if I don't find it particularly fun to play against.

One thing SG lacks that MvC2 does have though, are a variety of safe projectile supers to punish whiffed assist calls. In MvC2, many many matches can be decided by who's Assist gets tagged with a Hailstorm/Hyper Sentinel Force DHC, Shockwave/Hailstorm DHC or whatever. It is one of the things that kept MvC2 assists in check. In SG, Valentine is really the only rushdown character who can safely take a big chunk out of your assist if you make a bad assist call (with Scalpels), she can also use Scalpels to protect her own assists if you try to attack them.

I think that's why Valentine emphasizes the 'play behind your assist' metagame so much.
- She has the most evasive movement options in the game, which lets her call her assist anywhere she wants while staying safely out of reach
- She has the most reliable ways to convert into damage from an assist hit (probably tied with Painwheel)
- She has an easy way to stop you from punishing her bad assist calls
- She has an easy way to punish her opponent's bad assist calls

Other characters simply don't have the right tools to play the assist game against her.

 

[Broken Loose]

I think that's why Valentine emphasizes the 'play behind your assist' metagame so much.
- She has the most evasive movement options in the game, which lets her call her assist anywhere she wants while staying safely out of reach
- She has the most reliable ways to convert into damage from an assist hit (probably tied with Painwheel)
- She has an easy way to stop you from punishing her bad assist calls
- She has an easy way to punish her opponent's bad assist calls

Other characters simply don't have the right tools to play the assist game against her.

Also, her throw is an incredibly valuable tool for evading assists at point-blank while still enabling a full punish in any situation.