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PBGC Flash

Mwisk

Wholehearted supporter! (Aka Mhardle)
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I would like to see a visual effect on a successful PBGC'ed move, like a blue version of the push block effect. That way it would be good to practice it in training mode and also to hype up viewers. I think I've suggested this before to Mike but there was some problem regarding it that I can't recall right now (old forum stuff), I wonder if it's still hard to do?
 
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Oh yeah, that'd be cool. I could imagine a colored flash like the counter hit red flash.
 
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I would like to see a visual effect on a successful PBGC'ed move, like a blue version of the push block effect. That way it would be good to practice it in training mode and also to hype up viewers. I think I've suggested this before to Mike but there was some problem regarding it that I can't recall right now (old forum stuff), I wonder if it's still hard to do?
The problem was how to tell when it is a PBGC aside from the actual real reversal ones. Within 4f of the end of a pushblock?
 
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The problem was how to tell when it is a PBGC aside from the actual real reversal ones. Within 4f of the end of a pushblock?

Seems reasonable, like an optimal range. I'd say give it a try in the future and see what people think. In pretty sure even if it can't be super precise, people would appreciate at least recognizing they're on the right track with their pbgc attempts.
 
I dunno, it seems like it would occur an awful lot of times when you weren't intending to do a pbgc.

Basically any time you pushblock and then hit a button after it.
 
Make it so that it only shows up on specials, supers and tags maybe? Since these are much more common, intentional pbgc moves.
 
Im sorry but what exactly is a PBGC?
 
Im sorry but what exactly is a PBGC?
Basically, when the animation for a pushblock ends you are put in a neutral state, meaning you can do anything you would normally be able to do if you were just standing around and not doing anything. This means you can use a fast move (s.LP or c.LK does well for most characters) or an invulnerable move to interrupt your opponent's blockstring. These are especially useful if your opponent uses a multi-hitting move (where pushblocking won't move them back far) or starts their pressure with an assist (as the assist will be pushed back instead of the player). Most people just use invulnerable reversals at the moment, but since very few, if any, players really baits PBGCs this will be successful most of the time anyway.
 
Moved PBGC posts to a new thread.
 
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The problem was how to tell when it is a PBGC aside from the actual real reversal ones. Within 4f of the end of a pushblock?
Is there any bad about just having a reversal flash / message? I never know when I truly reversaled and when my opponent's attack just wasn't meaty etc, so that'd help?
PBGC is just "Reversal after a pushblock", so a reversal flash after Pushblocking = you PBGCd, that seems fine to me?

E: I guess it's annoying to have reversal flashes for everything, while something like PBGC Jab would still be worth showing. Meh~ Reversal Flash/Message just for Specials/Supers, but for PBGC into anything?
 
I'd be okay with the effect showing up for PBGCed specials, supers, tags and throws, basically commands that the point can do. Mostly as an indicator of the mechanic, like it's easier to explain why that reversal was more effective (mid blockstring) than a post blockstring one if a newcomer can see it.

I think reversal/counter-hit messages were on the list, but they require new assets so they might be added probably later. But don't quote me on that.

@DeathArcana PBGC stands for PushBlock Guard Cancel.


Moved PBGC posts to a new thread.

Thanks for making the thread, I wasn't sure if it was okay to open one so I just posted there. Thanks again!

Again, if it's too hard don't bother, but if it's possible to test it in the future, could be a nice thing.
 
A message is likely not going to happen, it would require messing with the HUD which we'd reaaaaaaaaaaally like to not do.
 
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visual effect on a successful PBGC'ed move

It's like you guys are trying to expose me for the gimmicky fraud that I am.
 
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A subtle spark or flash for pushblock animation ~ reversal anything would be very cool if it's easy to implement.
 
What about some kind of recovery spark for when you get out of blockstun?
 
A recovery spark every time you get out of blockstun? I feel that would become a bit of a visual overload after a while.

Instead of a spark or extra effect, I kind of want to see a character flicker for PBGCs, if anything.
 
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I think a flash for a successful pbgc *anything* would be good. Even silly stuff like pbgc jump or jab, not just specials and supers.
 
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oh i'm sorry but PBGC? i thought we mashed around for teh pbgc Kappa.

but seriously i don't know when i do pbgc. i know i can do it on bella's DD easy as pie but other moves like some hairball or some filia j mp into iad jmp i'm not sure if i truly did it or not.
 
If this gets added can we add PBGC to the tutorial or is that too advanced to teach
 
Wouldn't the tell be when the PB animation is shorter than normal and not the command after a PBGC?

I feel like we'd see it more frequently than most would assume.
 
PGBC is not really a game-side thing like a special move input or something, it's a player-side tactical thing that emerges from the fact that you are free to do stuff just like being at neutral at the end of a pushblock animation (which is unlike the situation where you are in a normal blockstun string and you're never in neutral until the end). That aspect of a Skullgirls pushblock happens every single time you pushblock.
 
If this gets added can we add PBGC to the tutorial or is that too advanced to teach
Its not that the concept behind PBGC is complex, its the fact that its gated by a strict timing with unique variations in its timing. Personally i dont agree that such an important defensive tool is being gated by an unnessesary complexity barrier, specially considering how heavy momentum based this game can be.
 
What would you propose replacing PBGC with?
 
I dont believe its nessesary to replace PBGC, more about making it more lenient, perhaps giving it a buffer window (kinda how squiglys divekicks works) to allow it to be a more consistent tool for a wider variety of the player base.
 
Doesn't that just make the game more mash friendly? Given the value you get out of a successful PBGC, I'm perfectly ok having the difficulty on it fairly high.

Different game analogy. In starcraft, the mutalisk is a fairly powerful flying unit in high numbers. They have splash damage and are quite mobile. However, their range is very short and are very weak in small numbers. The starcraft engine, being what it was, caused idle flying units to naturally spread from one another. The best players could keep the mutalisks in tight packs to get the most out of them while inferior players could reliably just point their flocks in the right direction.

It's like that with push blocks. The really good players get the most out of push blocks because guard cancelling is an option for them while slightly less good players can just use push blocks to get into a neutral state.
 
Mash friendlyness is not a problem with PBGC itself, but with the overwhelming amount of invincible moves/supers in the game. Regardless of that, opening up PBGC to a wider player base would "unlock" its set of mind games sooner, "Will he atempt a PBGC reversal here? Time to bait it out".

As for your other statement, its a matter of mechanical complexity locking out depth to the game, id go further on about this but id rather talk with you personally to prevent derailing the thread, feel free to add me on steam.
 
Please, this is just to discuss the possibility of an indicator of a successful one. And simply that.

PBGC is fine the way it is. We need stuff that has risk based on technique, practice and proper input time, rewards dedication to understanding the game. My two cents on the subject, but that's it, this game is too young, things need to grow a little.
 
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I dont believe its nessesary to replace PBGC, more about making it more lenient, perhaps giving it a buffer window (kinda how squiglys divekicks works) to allow it to be a more consistent tool for a wider variety of the player base.

It has a pretty lenient buffer window. You just have to know when the end of your pushblock animation is up or make an effort to see it. Getting a frame-perfect PBGC reversal with some moves may be harder than others, but it's not like it's some one or two frame window.

It's not hard because of a tight mechanical check, it's just not commonly used and poorly understood. Most people that read and make an effort to learn about pushblock properties and practice it in earnest would probably have it within a day or two of practice, if that.

Doesn't that just make the game more mash friendly? Given the value you get out of a successful PBGC, I'm perfectly ok having the difficulty on it fairly high.

Different game analogy. In starcraft, the mutalisk is a fairly powerful flying unit in high numbers. They have splash damage and are quite mobile. However, their range is very short and are very weak in small numbers. The starcraft engine, being what it was, caused idle flying units to naturally spread from one another. The best players could keep the mutalisks in tight packs to get the most out of them while inferior players could reliably just point their flocks in the right direction.

It's like that with push blocks. The really good players get the most out of push blocks because guard cancelling is an option for them while slightly less good players can just use push blocks to get into a neutral state.

A) I would disagree with PBGCs being a particularly difficult technique.

B) Even if it were a difficult technique, Mike doesn't balance the game by/around execution barriers. He's done a lot to make the game accessible (look at command throws, the leniency of buffered inputs, etc.) and he's gone on record multiple times saying that if something is difficult, it doesn't have any bearing on the balance implications of that something's place in the game because he assumes players will find ways to do it consistently as they get better.

The people I've talked to that dislike it hate it because it seems somewhat random or mashy. At this point in Skullgirls' metagame we've been conditioned to appraise a pushblock on the first or second hit of a guard string or multi-hit normal as a bad thing. It doesn't push them away which people feel is the primary/sole function of a pushblock. And that makes sense. But few have paid any attention to the actual guard stun reduction properties (or hang time advantages for air pushblocks) so they get surprised by a reversal for going back in on what looked like a bad pushblock, but in reality, was a great pushblock for reasons they don't understand or care to try and understand.

This is kind of why I'm not crazy about adding a visual indicator; you had a a 25f+ visual indicator with a bright yellow flash that lets you know a pushblock took place. In my opinion good players should know what someone's options are after that, both offensively and defensively, just like wake up.

To use your analogy, throwing an overlord in your control group and move-spamming a bit wasn't the hard part, you just had to have the prior knowledge of how the heterogenous control group pathing/clumping works. From there the only thing that mattered was either how to squeeze them between mid-game turrets, or why Irradiate would be the "we late game now; you don't get to use mutas anymore" button if you were on defense. In the same vein, PBGCs (or fighting someone that PBGCs often) just take prior knowledge of pushblock mechanics.
 
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This is kind of why I'm not crazy about adding a visual indicator; you had a a 25f+ visual indicator with a bright yellow flash that lets you know a pushblock took place. In my opinion good players should know what someone's options are after that, both offensively and defensively, just like wake up.
You can't react to whatever they do anyways. This isn't about "I want to see the opponent flash purple so I can block their PBGC'd Super", this is about
1) Commentator Thoughts: "He just pushblocked and then a bit later he did a DP, was that a PBGC or did it just look like one?"
2) Beginner Thoughts: "I just got DPd in the middle of my Dynamo WTF??? Game is glitched??? Owait the opponent flashed when he did it, maybe it's some special technique? Let me google that"
3) Player Thoughts: "I think PBGC is cool and I want some flash and sparkle when doing it to feel even manlier"
 
You can't react to whatever they do anyways. This isn't about "I want to see the opponent flash purple so I can block their PBGC'd Super", this is about
1) Commentator Thoughts: "He just pushblocked and then a bit later he did a DP, was that a PBGC or did it just look like one?"
2) Beginner Thoughts: "I just got DPd in the middle of my Dynamo WTF??? Game is glitched??? Owait the opponent flashed when he did it, maybe it's some special technique? Let me google that"
3) Player Thoughts: "I think PBGC is cool and I want some flash and sparkle when doing it to feel even manlier"
Quoting this and liking it because I so agree
 
Purple teacup would be pretty hype for sure.
 
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Isa with the thinking. I like the idea of helping commentators. Good commentators can go a long way towards making the game better. See also: Blizzard's changes for Starcraft 2
 
What if the character flashed a colour if he did a move after pushblocking to signify a successful PBGC?

I think a blue flash right before the end of your PB animation would be a good training mode tool to help with timing.
 
I'm a fan of a training mode option to help learn PBGC