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Question of the Week #2: How do you deal with mashing?

Zidiane

Zidiane

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Cerebella
Well, I think @keninblack has a lot of stuff going on, and so I'll be making the question this week. Hope we can keep this question-a-week thing going for a while!

Alright, so, let's start. How do you deal with mashing? There's mashing grab, mashing reversal, mashing supers, and mashing assists. What do you do about it? So many people seem to have trouble with it that this seems sadly relevant. You can answer more than one.

1) get hit: So, you don't really know what to do and you just hope they don't mash. Please answer honestly if you get hit more often than you bait.

2) bait and block: you stop hitting or jump or something to try and catch them mashing.

3) burst bait: if they're hitting buttons, yeah. Any special kind of setup you do to make it advantageous even if they don't burst?

4) setup to avoid: like, crossing them up or going over them in the air to avoid what they did (ex. going over Valentine's scalpels). You could also have another setup that in some other way avoids what they mashed.

5) setup to punish: do you have a setup punishes them if they mashed?

Which one do you prefer? Do you have other options? Go into detail, if you please.
 
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I mostly don't use precautions unless I KNOW that said player mashes a lot and in those cases I do the bait and block thing.
 
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1, 2, and 3 for me, mostly 1 though. I'll try going for a wakeup mixup and oh whoops 0-frame wakeup Diamond Dynamo in your face! If I know that they're mashing, or have eaten a reversal like that before, I'll usually go for a burst bait setup, especially in a weird part of my combo, like a midscreen ringlet psyche bait.
 
Knockdown burst baits are the way to go for dumb mashing.
 
I've personally been experimenting with option 5. As Cerebella, on the ground, s.lp, s.lp, s.hp, MGR beats just about everything Filia can mash. The s.hp needs to be canceled right away. This keeps you safe during Fenrir and lvl 3, and can be cancelled into showstopper to grab her out of Gregor, as well as keeps you safe from updo. It's also a normal reset if they don't mash. I can also use this setup on other characters, to pretty much the same effect.
 
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2 and 3, regarding the point character. Try to do small things to see if they are mashing, then exploit that.
5 for assists. Jumping just close enough to make the person call updo, jump away, then hopefully punish during the downtime.
 
can't talk, baitin'
 
Call assist and block. Works against everybody that's not Cerebella mashing 360.
 
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I usually setup my future baits, like I go into a full long combo in my first hit so people can be condition to mash in future combos so that's when I start with the baits or burst baits.

Today I usually go for burst baits when I notice they're mashing. Seems like a safer option also to identify a solider player.
 
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burst baits, delayed inputs, mash-safe resets
 
#1. I get hit. Against Filia and Fortune, I frequently don't go for resets at all, just for this reason.

I have a few burst baits, but I'm not smart enough about using them. Made worse by the fact that one of them is an undizzy bait in the corner, so if the bar isn't quite where I think it is, I either just drop the combo or give them a free burst.
 
#1, #3, or #4 depending on how good my guessing game is.

I know which ones of my resets beat a mashed throw, which ones beat which mashed reversals, and what the risk/reward for those resets are, and I'll try to vary them up depending upon how my opponent is playing and how much meter they currently have. Hell, sometimes I'll try to condition the other player by using the same reset two or three times, then suddenly using one that punishes the correct response to the previous one.

I'm never going to just block and not try to reset out of fear of getting reversal'd though. If I'm going to take a hit, I'm going to force a bar of super out in exchange.
 
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I do get hit quite a bit. Partly from drops that they mash out of. Though I do try 2 and 3 when I understand that the player truly mashes. I have a few punish set ups, but I haven't really tried them out on people yet.
 
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Zidiane said:
1) get hit: So, you don't really know what to do and you just hope they don't mash. Please answer honestly if you get hit more often than you bait.

2) bait and block: you stop hitting or jump or something to try and catch them mashing.

3) burst bait: if they're hitting buttons, yeah. Any special kind of setup you do to make it advantageous even if they don't burst?

4) setup to avoid: like, crossing them up or going over them in the air to avoid what they did (ex. going over Valentine's scalpels). You could also have another setup that in some other way avoids what they mashed.

5) setup to punish: do you have a setup punishes them if they mashed?

Which one do you prefer? Do you have other options? Go into detail, if you please.

1. No, i dont really get hit by them too often since with most characters, you can leave them in a position to not mash (i.e Air resets on bella/double/parasoul, ground reset on pw/fortune)

2. I do that a lot, if I think they are waiting to reversal at the right time and won't get hit by a burst bait. I'll just do something like empty jump + DP assist.

3. I do them against people who are mindlessly mashing. Good players rarely get hit by burst baits i find. At least not the 1-hit burst baits i use :p

4. I should probably try that but meh, kinda hard to do against Dynamo/Gregor.
 
Hmmm... Well, I guess everyone does about what I thought they did. Don't know why, but I thought someone would be doing something interesting. No one mentioned what they do against someone who mashes into a safe DHC either.
 
Zidiane said:
Hmmm... Well, I guess everyone does about what I thought they did. Don't know why, but I thought someone would be doing something interesting. No one mentioned what they do against someone who mashes into a safe DHC either.

I get bodied by that stuff on a regular basis... damn Bandwagon Rushdown->Hatred Install

My best solution so far is to snap painwheel in. Works pretty good
 
Dagwood said:
I get bodied by that stuff on a regular basis... damn Bandwagon Rushdown->Hatred Install

My best solution so far is to snap painwheel in. Works pretty good
Yeah, Double car into install sucks. What do you do about Gregor into Cat Heads?
 
Zidiane said:
Alright, so, let's start. How do you deal with mashing? There's mashing grab, mashing reversal, mashing supers, and mashing assists. What do you do about it? So many people seem to have trouble with it that this seems sadly relevant. You can answer more than one.

1) get hit

I assume 100% that this will happen when I drop combos. After I found fairly universal combos and got better execution with the character/situation specific combos, this happens far less.

I like to think that if someone is mashing through my whole combo, they're slowly wearing down their wrists/thumbs over the course of a match. Hand fatigue and confidence, hilarious as it is, counts as a resource to me. If I'm 100% certain they're mashing, I'll reset as late in the combo as possible to ensure they mashed for as long as possible.

For people mashing airthrow (fortunes and bellas mostly) PW and Double are pretty tough to airthrow given flight and weight respectively.

For people mashing pillar/DP, there's some pretty heavy punishes. Unless it's Fortune.

2) bait and block: you stop hitting or jump or something to try and catch them mashing.

All the time. Generally just stop combo + block. Bella's a weird one in that if you try to block you may end up eating a showstopper, so maybe less with her.

3) burst bait: if they're hitting buttons, yeah. Any special kind of setup you do to make it advantageous even if they don't burst?

I don't really have creative burst baits. They're just kind of "oh, undizzy's about to trigger, let's try to do something disjointed while they're in the air and fastfall." that way if they burst, I get the followup hits, and if they don't, it makes them leary of pushing buttons to tech the airthrow that's about to come get them.

I think Parasoul and Double probably get the most out of this with their air-string carry combos since they can drop so fast at the end of each string and have great air throws.

4) setup to avoid: like, crossing them up or going over them in the air to avoid what they did (ex. going over Valentine's scalpels). You could also have another setup that in some other way avoids what they mashed.

Off the top of my head, Squigly's the one I do this to the most, since painwheel flight cancel crossups will stay off the ground. Daisy Pusher seems to have really bad autocorrection and the hitstop will eat my j.HK input mid flight cancel effectively preventing me from running into it. If they do it slower, j.HK still tends to hit them air-to-ground before I land, canceling the Daisy Pusher hitbox.

5) setup to punish: do you have a setup punishes them if they mashed?

Not especially. Most of the mashes I defend are just empty jump + assist or forward dash + assist and block with my point. I'm a big fan of PBGC LK Bomber > Car > Install to ensure counterhit and reduce the chip damage I take while blocking, or maximizing the damage where possible with painwheel armor (i.e., block first hit of fortune's level 3, st.HP hatred-armor the second). The last hit of Dynamo is also a good one to armor as well.

I've seen Taluda and Konkrete use PW armor to eat super hits before super cancelling themselves, as well as Sev and Zidiane with Bella. I'd like to be able to do that, but haven't put the lab time in yet.
 
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Zidiane said:
Yeah, Double car into install sucks. What do you do about Gregor into Cat Heads?

I guess i'd do the same thing, snap double in. At least then she has to spend 2 meter on cats and doesn't have a safe dhc for car. But idk, I don't really play that many filia/doubles.
 
hlvn said:
I don't really have creative burst baits. They're just kind of "oh, undizzy's about to trigger, let's try to do something disjointed while they're in the air and fastfall." that way if they burst, I get the followup hits, and if they don't, it makes them leary of pushing buttons to tech the airthrow that's about to come get them.
That's a good strategy. Activate sparks, then grab. I can do it much, cause bella's air grab is absolute garbage (she also doesn't have many setups like this), but it's cool. I think if they burst late you may still get hit in the face if you jump back up at them, maybe.

I've seen Taluda and Konkrete use PW armor to eat super hits before super cancelling themselves, as well as Sev and Zidiane with Bella. I'd like to be able to do that, but haven't put the lab time in yet.
You don't have to always use armor to setup and avoid stuff. Another strat I'm trying to use is do a combo on Squigly and end with hk run churning for a 360. If she does daisy, I can instantly stop churning and go into Pummel Horse. If she has a seria charge and tries to sing into daisy, let loose the showstopper (I got about 15 frames to react, and she flashes purple).

Dagwood said:
I guess i'd do the same thing, snap double in. At least then she has to spend 2 meter on cats and doesn't have a safe dhc for car. But idk, I don't really play that many filia/doubles.
It's not Filia/Double specific. Any character with Double backing it has a safe DHC. Parasoul has bikes, Painwheel has install, Squigly has sing, Peacock has Lenny. Preparing for what to do in the event of a safe dhc is important. What do you do when both characters can safely DHC into each other? Snapping one in isn't going to on that front.
 
The option that's missing is to set up situations where you can't really mash out (easily). Setting up knockdown and then locking down with things like copter, butt, pw cr.mp, or whatever. Force them to block and set up the mixup.
 
Zidiane said:
That's a good strategy. Activate sparks, then grab. I can do it much, cause bella's air grab is absolute garbage (she also doesn't have many setups like this), but it's cool. I think if they burst late you may still get hit in the face if you jump back up at them, maybe.

Grab Bag maybe?

Yeah, it's not the greatest ruse in the world by any means. 99% of the time I do it, it's because I had a sloppy conversion leading into the combo to begin with.
 
If someone is mashing, usually I just try and bait out moves to punish it with. Those are my level 1 scrub tactics.
 
Most of my experience with mashers are either people who mash LP or LK on wakeup/resets, or people who mash supers.

If it's someone that mashes normals I just do meaty resets that beat mashing.

If they're mashing super I question why I'm playing Skullgirls and then proceed to get angry and complain
 
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There's only a few things that work against mashing. Thanks to Frame 0 goodness, safe jumps aren't a thing. You're left with a few options outside of baiting it completely (Sacrifcing Pressure), or sacrificing your assist up to the Hitbox Gods (Leaving you vulnerable to a DHC, and in a bad state if they have Instaaaall! :D ).

1. Use Burst Bait windows that hit common locations where someone is likely to input reversal super. This can be done with a number of Air Throw/Air Frame Trap setups. If the defender is looking to get out of the mixup with a DHC instead of taking the mixup, you can get them to activate everytime. The problem is that some characters may not even have this option. Parasoul is the best for it, from my experience.

2. Armor Option-Selects. When used with an Assist Call... I'm going to use Double's Slide... PW can call Slide, then fly/jump up and immediately charge j.HP. This catches Up+Back, because the charge causes the opponent to block cancel. Double comes in and smacks them with the Low. You can do this off any s.HP, due to the long hitstun/blockstun.

The beauty is that if they mashed, PW is in the middle of Armor, gets the absorption, and cancels into Thresher (Or let's the j.HP rip in some cases, landing sweet CH destruction). If they Up+Back, they get tagged. If they block low, you can get a High/Low mixup alongside the assist if your timing is right (Still haven't finished the labwork, though).

3. Shackle the opponent's options. Obviously, doing air resets, or resets that stuff all reversals is really good. Finding setups that do this is on a character-by-character basis, because you don't want to outright give up pressure. People will normally do this by sacrificing an assist and doing a move with a highly receded hurtbox.

4. Parasoul Napalm Shot Assist. I am convinced that this move is the juice. You ARE sacrificing Pillar, but once the projectile is out, and Parasoul is away, the Shot sits for 2 seconds before exploding. This allows you to set up all kinds of option-selects.
 
I just figure out what they like to mash and i bait it out:

Uss means i will bait via some form of jump while calling assist. Its always an empty jump though in case they mashed DD... Option selects yo... Something that beats both things..


Versus filia it depends on where i want to purposefully drop my combo, and where i expect the gregor mash... But its always some sort of block, or a burst bait

Generally speaking i try not to reset filia/val/fortune with frontal resets to much. I try to cross them up to try and mess up their inputs. Or just do MAX DAMAGE and reset to neutral. Taking damage during my own mixup is one of the things that i hate the most so i will tone down my resets to be more tame in order to have less of a chance of taking reversal damage.
 
I get hit a lot still

As peacock I don't mind getting hit back to full screen, so I can just do infinites until they burst if I don't want to finish my combo.

Against fortune/filia I need specific setups to avoid/armor their supers

Against pw I need to reset more on the ground and burst bait in the air.

Against everyone else resetting in the air is pretty good.
 
HP LNL
Absorb one hit of anything mashed, super them for it. done
 
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Bait and punish, put them into situations where the only option is to block/tech (air resets, hard knock-down with a lock-down assist), burst baits, resets that cross-up inputs. Getting hit is also there since you can't guess correctly all the time, but yeah.

I also like to Alpha Counter into Show Stopper to ruin any plans of a safe DHC. Two bars down and still under pressure. I guess you could PBGC these too, but usually it's a fast DHC out so not enough time.
 
Krackatoa said:
4. Parasoul Napalm Shot Assist. I am convinced that this move is the juice. You ARE sacrificing Pillar, but once the projectile is out, and Parasoul is away, the Shot sits for 2 seconds before exploding. This allows you to set up all kinds of option-selects.
If you want to rely on this at all, moreso than sacrificing Pillar this means you are running Parasoul 2nd/3rd. Not sure how much I dig that..
 
IsaVulpes said:
If you want to rely on this at all, moreso than sacrificing Pillar this means you are running Parasoul 2nd/3rd. Not sure how much I dig that..

May become more viable as more characters are added to the roster.
 
IsaVulpes said:
If you want to rely on this at all, moreso than sacrificing Pillar this means you are running Parasoul 2nd/3rd. Not sure how much I dig that..

I'm toying with running Squigly/Parasoul (Shot)/Big Band (MP Beat Extend)

but I suspect going Pillar/Rush Punch is stronger.
 
I deal with mashing predominantly in category 1. I'm usually so far behind I feel I need to go for the reset and play right into a guessing game that vastly favors the opponent. On the bright side, this only ever happens once a set~ish. Usually I learn after the first time and go for baits, but for some reason the opponent never seems to feel like mashing the second time and I end up just ending my offense for nothing *sad face*. Don't have any setups to burst bait or punish at the moment either.
 
Burst Baits, resets with an invul assist, burst baits with an assist to hit them if they block, and mid-air uncombos vs characters with no air super. Hell, even vs characters with air super, going for an uncombo isn't the stupidest thing since if they're mashing it, they're not timing it, so you might hit them during the mashing that doesn't count as the super input.
 
its wise to condition mashing in some cases in a way that doesn't have immediate consequence.

for example if i know they mash, and i want to bait it, depending on the player i won't do it in a way that leads to damage for me (i.e. burst bait, punish bait).

in this way, they still waste a meter, i still probably have positional advantage, and i have learned something about my opponent.

i can save my bait that leads to damage for a more critical point in the match because it may condition them to thinking that they can do it without being punished via damage. its always good to have setups that just initially see how your opponent is going to respond to a situation rather then always going for something that leads to damage.
 
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