This again? Blocking Supers Post Flash [Poll]

[skull person]

It's very simple.
Vote yes or no if you would like to see this in the beta again.

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If you do not understand what this means and you are here for the fan art
or a you are a new player...
Do NOT vote.
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You can discuss it if you like here.
Please keep on topic and keep the shit posting elsewhere.
The poll is all I care about.

If you need a brief refresher so we're all on the same page:

Spoiler

After the cinematic flash for a super goes off, the other character currently cannot input block or anything until the first active hitbox of the super.
You must be holding block before the super goes off.

The proposed question would allow you to press block during the cinematic flash to make your character block the super but only if your character was allowed to block on that frame.

Current:
> Filia resets you, you don't want to block the invisible mix up, you input Diamond Dynamo. Filia is counter hit. You DHC into Catheads and now you're doing your own resets/pressure/corner carries etc.
> Filia fakes a reset then just blocks instead, you input Diamond Dynamo and she blocks the reversal.
> Filia just jumps and then Cerebella does Diamond Dynamo. Filia is hit because she can't block since she wasn't holding back beforehand.

Proposed:
> Filia resets you, you don't want to block the invisible mix up, you input Diamond Dynamo, DHC into Catheads and since she was in the middle of JLK/JHK/2LK/Throw she cannot input block so she is counter hit. You DHC into Catheads and now you're doing your own resets/pressure/corner carries etc.
> Filia fakes a reset then blocks instead, you input Diamond Dynamo and she blocks the reversal.
> Filia thinks Cerebella is going to use Showstopper against her after a stare off, she inputs jump. Cerebella uses Diamond Dynamo and because Filia was able to block during her frames in the air, she is allowed to input block to block the 'reversal' super.

All hitstop on supers is the same, you are just allowed to input block during a super if you were in able to block on that frame.

TL;DR:
IF THIS CHANGE IS IN BETA, SUPERS SHOULD BE HITTING AS COUNTER HITS UNLESS ITS PART OF A COMBO. THEY ARE 'REVERSALS' NOW.

Other potential ideas

- PBGC loses unblockable post flash
- If you attack someone during there invincibility frames but recover and revert to neutral before the flash goes off, prevents blocking post flash.
- Anyone want any other exceptions? Obviously shit like Showstopper you can't jump and stuff.

'Please keep on topic and keep the shit posting elsewhere.'

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Voted yes.

How I see it: If you did a super and caught me pressing a button, you got me. It's my fault. I deserve to get hit.

But getting hit by a super for being in a neutral state does not feel like I was punished for making a mistake or overextending myself.

 

[zeknife]

I think it's fine as it is at the moment, with the smaller initial hitboxes and most air supers made blockable post-flash anyway
Though I've been speculating over the idea of being able to input your block during the first few frames of the super flash, which would eliminate those situations where you intend to block something (Like after a crossup or jumping forward or whatever) and then you get hit instantly because you didn't change direction quite fast enough against that massive super hitbox, while not quite being blockable on "reaction"
Not sure if that would have undesirable side-effects

 

[CaioLugon]

Mashed supers are still too strong, I think we should at least try it on beta.

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

I think it's fine as it is at the moment, with the smaller initial hitboxes and most air supers made blockable post-flash anyway
Though I've been speculating over the idea of being able to input your block during the first few frames of the super flash, which would eliminate those situations where you intend to block something (Like after a crossup or jumping forward or whatever) and then you get hit instantly because you didn't change direction quite fast enough against that massive super hitbox, while not quite being blockable on "reaction"
Not sure if that would have undesirable side-effects

Maybe i'm missing something but isn't the change that skarmand proposing exactly what you described?

 

[zeknife]

Maybe i'm missing something but isn't the change that skarmand proposing exactly what you described?

His suggestion is that you should have the entire duration of the super flash to react and block accordingly, while my suggestion is that only the first few frames should be checking your inputs, so you can't very well block all surprise supers on reaction, but you would have a few more frames for the block input if it's what you were already going to do. This happens often enough, to me at least, that it seems reasonable.


Edit: And of course it has precedence in non-super reversals: A lot of those aren't blockable on reaction and can very well catch you off guard if you're jumping forward or dashing or whatever, whereas supers would never be able to do that if they were always blockable post-flash. My suggestion is a compromise that would allow for stuff like forward dash + pre-emptive block, with fewer instances of "I totally blocked that!" while watching your character cinematically get destroyed

 

[Hilary]

That was SG 1.0. Get bent, how 'bout? I have been through this MANY TIMES, I don't ... forget it. Too dumb to understand why that's bad, too dumb to argue with. :^)

Man fuck trying to bring this up ever again.

Best of luck though, hitstop bopping you for being at neutral is obnoxious.

 

[skull person]

Man fuck trying to bring this up ever again.

With the amount of higher level players showing interest in this change far before I brought it up again I'm fine with Mike calling lots dumb and stupid at this point.

I only care about the poll though.
Even if it never goes through I just want to see the numbers.

 

[dekillsage]

It's not even getting hit by super at neutral that's obnoxious, because that almost never happens. What SUCKS is when you try to push your advantage but you get hit by gregor when you were pressing NOTHING.
Then you go man I should just block and then you do that and get grabbed or IAD'd j.hk'd. A 50/50 you have to deal with on your "advantage" is pretty dumb. It's the same vs cerebella and big band, but they can't combo off their level 1 reversals.
afk

 

[Dime]

This is the change that i proposed months ago. I was shot down because:


"Have you seen supers without the flash? Yeah they are unblockable on reaction"


Or some such. Mike doesnt want this change, or at least was 200% against it when it was last brought up.

Having said that, the original version of the unblockable super was stupid, half screen unblockable supers all day. Now its much more fair because the range is toned down. There is still stupidity such as the DD example, but it isnt as bad as it once was (and i raged hard about it before and got called all sorts of names as per usual for skullheart) but as i see it it us mostly fine as it is. It COULD use a change for things such as DD which is the biggest culprit because of neutral jumping anticipated USS, but it is no longer a deal breaker that makes the game unfun.


Im voting yes, but with the caveat that it be designed per move... Like it is currently.


Personally i like brass ssj autocorrect resets and stuff like that, but the proposed change were it to go through would kill stuff like that if it were administered homogenously to the entire cast.

 

[Stuff]

Is this just to see how many people actually play and understand skullgirls? or at least how many feel that way.

 

[Midiman]

I vote yes, as a test to see how much this changes the game. It's been a long long while since this was changed and I'm sure plenty of habits and strategies were modified to make this work.

I personally kind of like the superfreeze, but I would actually like to see it applied to heftier supers as opposed to lv1's globally, just as a test. Perhaps LV3+'s and all Installs.

tl;dr I don't mind either implementation, but I want to see how this changes the things and see if it really does discourage super as thoughtless reversal.

 

[iLoli]

As far as I know, the current superflash works like :If you were THIS close to the opponent while doing the super, you get caught. Or most supers have THIS many frames of hitstop on it, outside of those frames, you can do whatever during the cinematic."

I don't think the idea as a whole is a bad one, maybe implemented badly for a couple of supers, but as the whole? No.

I'd give things like Gregor less hitstop, kind of like SBO, but meh I'm a scrub.

 

[skull person]

As far as I know, the current superflash works like :If you were THIS close to the opponent while doing the super, you get caught.
I'd give things like Gregor less hitstop, kind of like SBO, but meh I'm a scrub.

You can't act until it attacks.
If you get hit with the first hitbox you can't block.

With this change, everything would be like SBO besides things like Showstopper.

 

[Uzu]

At very least i would like my idea of reduced/no hitstop but hitstop on PBGC be tested on the beta, sounds like it could be pretty good or really bad.

If "defensive" options are nerfed to the ground then this game will have a beyond ridiculous offense, we gotta keep that in mind.

 

[skull person]

If "defensive" options are nerfed to the ground then this game will have a beyond ridiculous offense, we gotta keep that in mind.

Yeah, but this won't effect defense vs [unreactable resets] or [bait] risks
Still functions the same way.

Rather if you're going to reversal against offense it's a counter hit and you successful reversal-ed, always.

 

[Dime]

If everything becomes like sbo then i will quickly be changing my vote to no.


What i want is people that were attacking to get hit and people that werent attacking to be able to block. What i DONT WANT is people supering supers even though they were currently in the middle of an attack like in vanilla, which was a huge point of contention for me.

 

[skull person]

What i want is people that were attacking to get hit and people that werent attacking to be able to block. What i DONT WANT is people supering supers even though they were currently in the middle of an attack like in vanilla, which was a huge point of contention for me.

Fuck I forgot that was a propriety of SBO.
Nevermind.

But yes it's just
"What i want is people that were attacking to get hit and people that werent attacking to be able to block."
entirely.

 

[zeknife]

While we're on this topic, why does lenny make dhc supers unblockable/unjumpable/uncounterable
Does anything else do this?

 

[alexpi]

I just like testing stuff in the beta. That's what it's there for. If it's shit, it can always be dumped.

 

[dekillsage]

At very least i would like my idea of reduced/no hitstop but hitstop on PBGC be tested on the beta, sounds like it could be pretty good or really bad.

If "defensive" options are nerfed to the ground then this game will have a beyond ridiculous offense, we gotta keep that in mind.

When people tell me things like hitstop supers are dumb, I tell them its there because offense and mix ups are too good and too fast so you need a good way to stop them.

If I were to compare skullgirls to any other game, how about I try it with batgirl in Injustice. She does the exact same vortex as any other character in this game, difference being you can't reversal out of her stuff, you had to make a read to block her and then go for a punish (from what I've seen). I don't want that.

The idea is to not remove hitstop, but to make it so that it's only usable as a reversal. Meaning, offense and mix ups still take risk, and can get blown up all the same.

I don't mind getting hit super for dropping a combo, getting hit by super for going for a reset, or getting hit by super airdashing at my opponent. But when I'm just standing there, or I'm in already in the air (after prejump) and I press nothing, getting hit by a super because I could have let go of block for a split second is still out of control and silly.

 

[dekillsage]

While we're on this topic, why does lenny make dhc supers unblockable/unjumpable/uncounterable
Does anything else do this?

L M A O this happened to me at evo I was like whaaaaaat. Please patch

 

[Dhoppler]

I also hate jumping at opponents and getting reversal supered despite pushing nothing.

 

[POS Industries]

Sage pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter so that's a yes from me.

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

stuff

Understood, thanks zeknife!

 

[WhiteFury]

I was shot down because: "Have you seen supers without the flash? Yeah they are unblockable on reaction"

Everyone understands this part of it right? If you jumped intending to block and didn't get back fast enough or went neutral instead of holding block you still fucked up. You didn't fuck up as obviously as if it was an air dash or move but it's still a fuck up. The gregor post flash block is in retail right now isn't it? Gregor is like the only thing that gets way too much out of this since it leads to filia nonsense. Everything else has to be a dhc so its at least 2 meters and requires characters alive and in the right order.

I like zeknife's idea for some of the crazy crossup stuff that happens with hitstop on occasion but how can you say you should't be getting punished for being at neutral when a hitbox runs into you?

 

[Zidiane]

L M A O this happened to me at evo I was like whaaaaaat. Please patch

I brought this up to Mike at Evo 2013. Lenny Showstopper being unjumpable, for example, was brought up very early. Good luck getting it patched.

 

[Hilary]

If "defensive" options are nerfed to the ground then this game will have a beyond ridiculous offense, we gotta keep that in mind.

They can still be invulnerable, they can still have hitstop.

 

[Hilary]

If everything becomes like sbo then i will quickly be changing my vote to no.


What i want is people that were attacking to get hit and people that werent attacking to be able to block. What i DONT WANT is people supering supers even though they were currently in the middle of an attack like in vanilla, which was a huge point of contention for me.

I doubt that would happen.

When Mike tried the experiment before in Beta, you were only able to block after the super freeze.

 

[Jason]

Nah supers are literally only unblockable post flash if youre right up at point blank range.

Why should a reversal super give my opponent more chance to block it on reaction than a reversal dp? I cant think of a good reason. Especially since most DPs in the game lead into as good or better damage than a reversal super.

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Especially since most DPs in the game lead into as good or better damage than a reversal super.

No, they don't. DPs in this game generally only lead to full combos if you also burn the meter to convert off of it (The only exception off the top of my head is fiber) or if they're in the corner. Supers like Gregor, Feral Edge, Catscratch Fever (with the right head position), Whatever fukua's clone super is called, Bella Level 3, Cat heads, SBO/daisy pusher (these don't have proper hitstop without using charged CS first though), Big bands air super, and scalpels all get you full combos from midscreen.

 

[Colossi]

scalpels all get you full combos from midscreen.

Only air scalpels, and sometimes the height is kinda messed and you can't convert it right.
Ground scalpels can only lead to combos if you are cornering someone.

 

[Jason]

No, they don't. DPs in this game generally only lead to full combos if you also burn the meter to convert off of it

but if you're doing a reversal super that also costs you a meter, no matter if it works or not.

At least if you do a reversal DP and it gets blocked you can save your meter.

 

[Zidiane]

DPs in this game generally only lead to full combos if you also burn the meter to convert off of it (The only exception off the top of my head is fiber) or if they're in the corner.

Devil Horns (It's a shitty reversal, but still). And i guess Fukua's armor grab, too. And Peacock's anti-grab reversal. Eliza's DP. Oh, and Big Band's DP. I think that's it.

Still. I played when you could counter super all day long. I don't think making supers blockable on reaction will hurt, all it'll do is make players less frustrated for getting hit as if they were hitting buttons despite not hitting buttons. People decide whether or not they will play the game regardless of how things are put together, so I personally feel like the game should avoid frustrating the player as often as possible.

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Only air scalpels, and sometimes the height is kinda messed and you can't convert it right.
Ground scalpels can only lead to combos if you are cornering someone.

Yeah I meant air scalpels. I haven't seen them used on the ground in so long I forgot you could use them there. I've rarely seen players fail to convert off of scalpels.

Devil Horns (It's a shitty reversal, but still). And i guess Fukua's armor grab, too. And Peacock's anti-grab reversal. Eliza's DP. Oh, and Big Band's DP. I think that's it.

Completely forgot about Big Band and Devil Horns. I dunno if I would classify fukua armor grab and lp bang as reversals, but yeah you have a point there.

Still. I played when you could counter super all day long. I don't think making supers blockable on reaction will hurt, all it'll do is make players less frustrated for getting hit as if they were hitting buttons despite not hitting buttons. People decide whether or not they will play the game regardless of how things are put together, so I personally feel like the game should avoid frustrating the player as often as possible.

I have a more detailed response I want to give to this (and Jason's earlier post) that i'll do when I get home from work.

 

[Krackatoa]

I was content with Frame 0 being reserved for point-blank on the initial hitbox. It also validates all these sick armor setups.

 

[Dagwood]

I liked it more when people couldn't reversal super out of anything. You could just counter-super. Now the whole metagame is all about reversals and baiting reversals, it's gotten more boring imo. I feel like im punished for playing correctly. I land a hit or a block string and i cant do anything besides bait reversals.

 

[Flotilla]

Can we go more than a few months without changing a fundamental game mechanic, or more specifically without regressing said mechanic to a point in time where people wanted it changed to how it is now?

I don't understand the rationale behind "I wasn't blocking at neutral against their pointblank super, why should I have gotten hit", as if the superflash is supposed to be part of its startup instead of mostly cosmetic fluff. Why is it okay to get hit by a 7f DP in this manner, but not an 8f super? You would have to preemptively block against the DP and that's fine, but it's not okay with the super because ???

And as Dime pointed out above, this change would kill stuff like SSJ autocorrect mixups.

 

[dead]

This idea doesn't sound great. It makes the false assumption that fighting games are entirely based on reactions rather than prediction (granted there's a lot of both.)

It also assumes that human error isn't a factor. Maybe next we should make it so you just auto block whenever you're in a neutral position.

 

[Dime]

The prime difference is these things:


1. Supers have waaaay more range than most non metered reversals.
2. Supers are dhc'able to make safe whereas non metered reversals depending on what they are cant be made safe (bella armor headbutt), or have to be preemptively without a confirm, canceled into super and then into safe dhc (devil horns to a certain extent and painwheel thresher)
3. The range that supers are unblockable makes no sense to the "have you seen how fast these are without super flash" thing. Mike in his wisdom made us able to see how fast these are with no super freeze... LOTS are unblockable at fullscreen... Peacock argus... Unblockable. Parasoul scope... Unblockable. Parasoul level 3... Unblockable. Most are reactively unblockable for the full extend of their range. Yet on the game for obvious reasons they are toned down. But it makes no sense since these things are unblockable fullscreen, yet dont reflect that in game play.


But yes the biggest difference is the RANGE the unblockable metered moves have. It is waaay more than normal reversals and the normal reversals that have actual range cant be made safe in block.... Supers kil that noise.

4. Qcf is infinitely easier to mash than dp.

5. Its a lot easier to make regular reversals like updo or pillar wiff because of the terrible range.


But I'm completely not a fan of reversing supers with supers. I generally like it how it currently is because the range on unblockable supers has been toned down since the first implementations.