Val's lvl2 super and you

[Fedora_Ninja]

Val's lvl2 is an under-utilized tool. Granted its is situational, but don't forget that it's there.


Basic Info

• 0 frame startup
• Val takes a step forward, and stands straight at full height (taller hitbox). She stands taller than Parasoul, shorter than Double.

Spoiler: lvl2 counter hitboxes

• • Notice that Val's collision hit box (blue) does not expand from her normal height. So trying to counter a Filia IAD j.hp before the move comes out will lead into a whiffed counter and Filia dashes through you.
  • Spoiler
• Active frames end when Val exits her pose.
• Can only DHC from counter super if it connects.
• Cannot be DHC'd into since there is no super flash.
• Can beat out mashed out supers (esp. Double's Car)
• Works on assists (as long as it counts as a physical hit)
• Can cancel from any ground normal and ground special.
  • Cancelling HK savage bypass isn't useful. On block, the cancel period is short and the entirety of the lvl2's active frames is shorter than bypass's blockstun. It is also punishable during recovery.
  • Mortuary Drop can be cancelled on whiff up to the point where Val tosses the body bag. Careful, it can be cancelled after it hits too.
    EDIT: Mortuary drop has been patched so that it starts up faster, but cannot be super canceled unless on hit.
• Cannot counter projectiles, or throws.
  • Includes Double lvl2 catheads and Fortune's lvl3 and detached head attacks, Squigly's silver chord and Daisy Pusher super, as well as Big Band's hk giant step shockwave.
• CAN counter bursts

Countering Without Vial Loaded

• Opponent gets frozen with an Rx prescription drawn on her/him
  • The Rx is palletized! Silent Hill nurse pallet is blood red!
• gives an opportunity for a guaranteed counterhit combo
  • Remember 350 drama MDE Val combos? now you can kinda do them if you want. (found at the first few pages of the Val combo thread)
• opponent is in a throwable state (useful for armored attacks section)

• only one opponent character on the screen can be frozen from the counter. If opponent's point character is frozen (countered without vial loaded) and the opponent called an assist before the counter, and the assist was countered, then point character will be unfrozen. The unfrozen point character will continue its attacking animation.
• The counter works in that it absorbs a hit for no damage. If countering a single hitting normal/special, the attack won't have a hurt box after the frozen effect wears off. If countering a super/multi-hitting move, the attack will continue after the frozen effect wears off.
• Any backwards movement (with the exception of backdash) is sealed off and translates into Val's blocking animation. So if you want to adjusting for jump-in j.hp xx air dash j.hp, you have to backdash, air jump forward j.hp xx airdash j.hp.
• Gives enough time to load up a vial, and then s.hp/c.hp. SO DO IT! (unless the vial load's hitbox will overlap with the frozen opponent's hitbox)

EDIT: Vial Load hitbox removed. JUST DO IT! LOAD A VIAL!​

• Opponent can be pushed to the corner in frozen state if that's your fancy. So you could run for a few sec -> grab -> run more to the corner -> combo/free oki.

Spoiler

​

Countering With Vial Loaded

• Val injects the opponent with the vial, the opponent gets stunned in place for short period, and flies backwards half screen in a juggle state.
• Causes 3375 Damage by itself (2250 + counter hit bonus), an additional 2364 damage with poison vial loaded (given 1.0 damage ratio)
• Is invulnerable all the way through the animation.
• Causes instant lvl3 vial effects
  
• Doesn't give drama/undizzy counter hit benefits
  
• instant stage 3 combo state, so watch those buttons and try to avoid triggering ips.
  
• Is a legit punish of predictable dp assist calls. If countering a called assist and point is around the same location as assist, both point and assist get hit by the needle and are injected with the lvl3 effects.
  • If opponent's point character is blocking, is +45 on block. Causes slight pushback on opponent's point character, but still plenty of time to do a mix-up. (They could of course pushblock, but people would probably be mashing buttons to punish the first time.)
  • Opponent's assist will suffer counterhit + assist damage bonuses, and with a purple vial loaded, will bleed every time the assist is called.
  • DAT HITBOX DOE
    Spoiler: Seriously, DAT HITBOX

    
• with purple vial loaded, the simplest bnb can reach 9k with ease
  • is a tide changer and only needs 1 reset to kill a character.

Spoiler

• Successfully countering extended hitboxes (squig's j.hp, titan knuckle) from a distance leads to a teleport directly in front of opponent.

Spoiler

Countering Armored Moves

• Countervenom breaks armor
• Freezing armored moves with a prescription
  • Armor doesn't get broken unless you throw the enemy or use a multi-hitting attack that rips through all the hits of armor.
  • Frozen effect disappears once opponent is hit
  • Counter Hit bonuses don't occur until you get through all hits of armor
  • When countering moves with up to 2 hits of limited armor (Big Band's Super Sonic Jazz w/o taunt and Brass Knuckles, Bella's H/M Lock n Load, NOT Bella's lvl3) Val can use c.mp to rip through the armor and keep a combo going.
    • If you can time it right, you can cancel the first two hits of c.mp into c.hp for +100 drama/undizzy and 1425 counter hit damage.

Spoiler

​

 

[Camail]

I would agree that no one uses it and that I'm sure it has its uses, but counters are not part of my playstyle. Making reads for two meters and the risk of getting hit is not worth it for me personally.

 

[Mike_Z]

You can totally cancel into counter from syringe toss/shuriken toss, btw. There aren't any "can only cancel to these moves", it's just based on move classes (specials or supers).

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

I see. Either my execution is off or I couldn't get the cancel period after throwing the vial/shuriken. Will adjust the note.
Good to know that was the only thing called wrong.

 

[Mike_Z]

Well, she can cancel for waaaay too long out of Mortuary Drop, but I'm not gonna fix that cuz it's dope. :^)

 

[ashxu]

Being able to cancel Mortuary Drop into her lvl2 might make it useful actually.

Or at least useful the first two times you do it.

The only problem with it is that it costs 2 meters which could be used somewhere else. Maybe people would use it more if it refunded 1 meter if it fails or something.

 

[WaterMystic277]

I never knew my old main was this cool.

 

[CaioLugon]

the video is sick

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Edited in minor things, plus a new find(last bullet). Changes the neutral game and gives squigly players something to think about when you have 2 meters and a vial.

 

[Pikmario]

It's possible for the vial version to whiff on Filia when being hit with a very high up j.HK. The disjointed Samson hitbox reaches very low and the counter hitbox juuuust barely reaches Filia's butt.

Frame data says it's -132 on whiff, which seems like just the duration of the super + hitstop. Says the same with or without super flashes being skipped. Looking at it recorded it looks more like -16 or so on whiff.

 

[Nuuance]

Wow thanks for this....tech hoooo!

 

[Izzmo]

Something fun but not really useful I found messing around with the counter: If you hit with a grounded H bypass from almost anywhere on the screen and cancel into a lvl 2 without changing sides, you'll whiff it and recover in time to get an OTG combo. Not a very smart use of 2 bars, but fun.

 

[Zidiane]

 

[Choose Goose]

Dat daisy pusher

 

[Karr]

Counter is something I always enjoy pulling off as Val. Its result is satisfying, generally because just getting the move to land is tricky. the reason its rarely used, is because its unreliable for the cost, even if the damage output is great. Some of the best val players even say it sucks and not worth it. just whiffing it alone costs 2 meter, and if an opponent knows you, and knows you will try to sneak it in situationally if they are pressuring you, they can easily throw to avoid it and lay down even more punishment.

Just the fact that it will not register against a throw is awful imo. I feel it really should.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

In fighting games, counters were always vulnerable to grabs. Normally they're good for dealing with predictable pokes and telegraphed moves. However, hitstop prevents you from reacting to supers and SG overall is too fast to try and predict when to successfully counter a quick poke.

Personally, I think it's great in the Squigly match up. Divekick pressure is serious business. Without a dp assist, it's hard to shut down. However, Squigly players have to commit to their divekicks, and that makes them predictable and vulnerable to counters. There's also using it to deal with Filia's high/low mix-ups, but that's essentially mashing out a super.

 

[Karr]

in other fighting games, counters don't cost 2 meters to execute either

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Not sure how that's an argument related to giving players ways around the risk of getting countered. Thought we were talking about grabs and not what other games don't do but whatever. There's a lot of things that other games don't do that SG does so it's not a valid arguement.

Games have their own methods of balance. Dudley still takes damage from the cross counter, counters in UMvC3 suffer from damage scaling and aside from Amaterasu (whose counter is dumb and can be held indefinitely), have gigantic super flashes. Given the amount of benefits and damage that counters usually DON'T give, 2 meters seems appropriate. Besides, having it cost 1 meter really wouldn't make it any less risky to use. Lots Val players blow off meter on air scalpels that get blocked anyway and it's a lot less rewarding and just as punishable.

TLDR; We all know that it's a big gamble seldom used. The opponent will never know when it is coming because it's 2 meters spent that we don't even know will pay off. We're better off discussing when we like to use Val's lvl2 than try and bitch for change when none is coming. I made this thread cuz counters are hype as shit and I want to see more.

 

[Karr]

its not so much bitching as it is, pegging justification to why most Val players dont use counters in the first place. I agree SG does alot of things differently than most fighters, but the game also takes the best from most fighters as well. its the reason im so attracted to this game, that and its pure eye candy, and inspirational for an animator.

Scalpels are still used as a means of moderate chip damage, or keeping opponents at bay. It's not the best reason to burn a meter but its better than a huge window to whiff and leave yourself wide open.

in my personal opinion, something simple as a meter cost change would probably lead more val players to rely on counter attempts more. keep the initial cost for the super at 2 meters, but only spend 1 meter if it whiffs, and of course keep it so they cant attempt it until they at least have 2 meters built up. something moderate like this, wouldn't make the move attempt seem like such a brutal form of masochism, but still retain a risk for trying to abuse it.

 

[alexpi]

Does a non-vialed counter count as a throw for combo purposes or is it just a raw hit?

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Without a vial the frozen effect is a state of it's own. The opponent is in a grab-able state, and the combo counter doesn't start until you hit them.

 

[Camail]

One of the biggest problems for this super is facing anyone who uses a lockdown assist, you won't even get a chance to counter through that.

This is an exclusively swag move to me, I honestly suggest that every val forget it exists and work on the other parts of her game that are more useful for her and her team. Trying to utilize this move will just create bad panic habits and distract you during neutral and defense.

 

[alexpi]

PBGC exists.

 

[Karr]

agreed Camail

 

[hellohello123123]

a good thing to do is going into level 2 after a medium/light bypass on block, people mostly try to punish the bypass and thus hit the counter

 

[Camail]

PBGC exists.

Which will most likely hit the assist, otherwise you would have to have perfect timing as to when exactly they are goig to attak and pushblock ~half a second beforethat. Again, it is put into the realm of sever impracticality and is not worth putting in the mind of a val player right now. Honestly the only reason I didnt mention pbgc in my previous post was because I thought it was obvious that it wasn't a solution.

 

[Dagwood]

I have a bad habit of always going for her counter... It just looks so damn cool..

 

[gllt]

Hi.

 

[Karr]

that third video....why would anyone whiff like that? hahaha

 

[gllt]

For a legitimate answer to that, the best guess I have is;

• Style
• You really don't want to side switch with bypass knives and that's all you know
• lmao

 

[Karr]

my vote is on your third answer xD

 

[Camail]

Ok so you guys know I don't like counter, but last night during duck's stream he did a blockstring that ended in launcher and let that shit ride, then in the very last moments when khaos went to punish the launcher (making sure he wasnt going to cancel into deadlycross or use an assist) duck did the most perfectly timed counter I have ever seen. It was beautiful.

 

[gllt]

It's okay Camail, cause we like you. And duck's sick counters.

IMO working counter into your playstyle is less about baiting for it and more about knowing when to capitalize on your or the opponents fuck ups.

I know never to jump mindlessly over a Filia that has one meter.

Counter may not be as great as fenrir for yolo reversal, and you can bait both of them, but my good God do people love to attack Val doing a raw vial load or a command grab reset, and I think they need to be taught to be wary of that and learn to go for the throw or command grab instead in turn.

If they want to risk the raw counter hit, and you have two meters, they should risk eating 9k damage.

And there are more bait methods than doing raw moves and counter punishing. You could catch people mashing push block by canceling a multi hit move in a block string early and get them to clp/slp you.

Also, training your opponent has advantages. Does Cerebella really want to titan knuckle your raw vial loads from a distance when you have two meters if you consistently counter venom it? Eventually, you could train them to let you load all the vials you want as long as you're standing on two meters.

Zoners don't have to put up with this of course.

Eventually Cerebella would also dash in for MGR, I HOPE.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

Updated the hitbox picture to include the collision boxes. Interestingly, Val's collision box doesn't expand while the counter is active. You'll see that Filia can just IAD right through her.

Also added some stuff I missed that were in the Encore patch notes.

 

[gllt]

[PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT]

 

[hellohello123123]

#swag

 

[ashxu]

I've been trying to use this move more and it's sorta working, although I would LOVE for the input to be changed to something easier like qcf/b. I can't be the only one that has trouble doing RDP in a tight situation.

 

[hellohello123123]

im fine with the move inputs, the only problem that it has is that its really, really hard to peanut butter guard cancel into it, as it ends with a back motion, but then again, if it were QCF id spam that shit everywhere

 

[Hilary]

If you have the vial loaded and the meter, this super is phenomenal against parasoul left/right/high/low resets and wonderful for punishing less-than-subtle spiral flares.

 

[gllt]

If you have the vial loaded and the meter, this super is phenomenal against parasoul left/right/high/low resets and wonderful for punishing less-than-subtle spiral flares.

Thanks for the heads up, now when we fight I will be doing as many empty hops back and forth over you as possible every time you have 2 meters :^)