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vs valentine neutral advice/help

TheOneTrueScrub

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Valentine Cerebella
Sorry if there is already a thread about this. Like the title says, I need some help vs Valentine during the neutral game. It seems like Val can pretty much dominate the air and ground with her huge aerial normals and quick ground normals. Air Dead Cross goes at just the right angle to avoid Napalm shot MP and counter hit Para. So, I'm wondering if I need to to just rush in and try to pressure her since she has no real reversal?
 
Val's vertical reach is really bad. Just super jump forward and block. When you're near her j.lp, j.lk, and j.mp stuff or trade with anything Val can do. Parasoul doesn't have the tools to zone Val, you just have to get in and pistol whip some heads
 
Basically, what AlexPi said. Tear shots kinda suck against Val anywhere other than as a good way to end a blockstring (and even that can be punished in a lot of scenarios with pushblock -> IAD j.mp), but j.lp and j.lk beat basically every normal Val has, so use them a lot. If you're grounded and Val is in the air moving towards you, c.HP is a decent anti-air with a good reward, although it's a touch risky on block.
 
Unfortunately i got nothing much from watching that sev set against duck. Val generally murdered parasoul in the neutral and the on,y conversions i saw parasoul get were off val offensive mistakes (val crossing herself up and stuff like that) or parasoul getting an updo to hit and confirming off that.


But other than that it was mostly parasoul dying and filia coming and and having to try and save the day.

Val is really feeling unfair to me lately. Out here in au, our local val, the only one we've got and we've only had him since pc release, has leveled up in the extreme, his val is basically a take on ducks val, complete with nice mixup burst baits full corner carries, j.lk crossup and non crossup, low/throw reset mixups for days and even reset highs against parasoul. So... Hes a solid val.


Anyways, all that stuff doesnt matter to me... Its the neutral that seems unfair. Seriously... though it isnt as bad, a well played neutral val feels like mvc2 storm. Our val basically just jumps in the air backwards, then double jump forward, then airdashes and call assist (mk bomber) then does airdash j.mk (and he has many versions of this pattern but this one seems to be his overall favorite)

I cant find a way to stop this. Every way i try i get stopped either on reaction or by the damn bomber or val lands somewhere behind or in front of me... Outside of my normals range in general and then he just does iad j.hp or something and it randomly crosses up.

This is if i make it out of the bomber crossing up or if he didnt just come straight down on top of me with a j.hp that randomly crosses up or not.



This is very frustrating to play against because it doesnt feel... Skilled? its literally the same thing over and over again with really small changes. I know he's going to jump back to create space and i cant do anything about it 90% of the time.

If i super jump towards him im just going to land into vals sweet spot and allow a low/throw/crossup mixup as im landing. If i try to make space, he can just chase me down via double jump j.mk airdash j.hp or whatever... I cant contest it though because of the combination of vals ludicrous height, and her stupid updo/mk bomber busting me out of stuff. And once i get combod... Val has stupid reset options that i already mentioned.


So basically, he can run away for free and i cant catch him, and he can chase me down for free and i cant stop him... I have no idea what in the hell to do... Any answers? As ive said i have tried super jumps and stuff like that... It usually just ends up me opening myself up. I have no answers for this. No assist really affects the area that val runs away and turtles at nor the area where she launches her offensive from. It just really feels like playing against storm.

I'm trying to find answers... But ive found none so far and vids of people playing against duck dont help at all.
 
Unfortunately i got nothing much from watching that sev set against duck. Val generally murdered parasoul in the neutral and the on,y conversions i saw parasoul get were off val offensive mistakes (val crossing herself up and stuff like that) or parasoul getting an updo to hit and confirming off that.


But other than that it was mostly parasoul dying and filia coming and and having to try and save the day.

Val is really feeling unfair to me lately. Out here in au, our local val, the only one we've got and we've only had him since pc release, has leveled up in the extreme, his val is basically a take on ducks val, complete with nice mixup burst baits full corner carries, j.lk crossup and non crossup, low/throw reset mixups for days and even reset highs against parasoul. So... Hes a solid val.


Anyways, all that stuff doesnt matter to me... Its the neutral that seems unfair. Seriously... though it isnt as bad, a well played neutral val feels like mvc2 storm. Our val basically just jumps in the air backwards, then double jump forward, then airdashes and call assist (mk bomber) then does airdash j.mk (and he has many versions of this pattern but this one seems to be his overall favorite)

I cant find a way to stop this. Every way i try i get stopped either on reaction or by the damn bomber or val lands somewhere behind or in front of me... Outside of my normals range in general and then he just does iad j.hp or something and it randomly crosses up.

This is if i make it out of the bomber crossing up or if he didnt just come straight down on top of me with a j.hp that randomly crosses up or not.



This is very frustrating to play against because it doesnt feel... Skilled? its literally the same thing over and over again with really small changes. I know he's going to jump back to create space and i cant do anything about it 90% of the time.

If i super jump towards him im just going to land into vals sweet spot and allow a low/throw/crossup mixup as im landing. If i try to make space, he can just chase me down via double jump j.mk airdash j.hp or whatever... I cant contest it though because of the combination of vals ludicrous height, and her stupid updo/mk bomber busting me out of stuff. And once i get combod... Val has stupid reset options that i already mentioned.


So basically, he can run away for free and i cant catch him, and he can chase me down for free and i cant stop him... I have no idea what in the hell to do... Any answers? As ive said i have tried super jumps and stuff like that... It usually just ends up me opening myself up. I have no answers for this. No assist really affects the area that val runs away and turtles at nor the area where she launches her offensive from. It just really feels like playing against storm.

I'm trying to find answers... But ive found none so far and vids of people playing against duck dont help at all.

I feel the exact same way and I'm running into the same problems. Even if you try to super jump your usually put in to preblock because of her shurikens or val's air normals just beat yours because of her height. Also super jumping into her leaves you in a very bad position when you fall to the ground.

The only think i've found against val is just general stuff every one does which is put val in block stun with j.hk+assists so you can try to do mixups, if you miss your chance good luck catching her again.

The other being to stop her approach with an anti air assist.

1 v 1 parasoul doesn't seem to have any reliable tools and val can just do what ever she wants.
 
@akindhobo

Who is the val that you play against? Any video?
 
@Dime_x the one that gives me most trouble is Outlaw_spike's cuz he plays a solo val and for some reason i play solo against him to try to get an understanding of a para val match up. But even so most good val's have no trouble just avoiding parasoul and going in when ever they want. The only thing i can rely on is an anti air assist
 
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I personally find that the matchup is in Parasoul's favor.

It's rough because ending a string in Naplam Shot just gets you PBGC EKG'ed, so you have to be very wary of that.

I feel like Parasoul's best tools in this matchup are her versatile tear throws, jump jab, jump back fierce and standing jab.

My opinion is that Parasoul does her best when she's dashing around the screen with her tears up, making in unfavorable for Val to do the things she wants in the air, held Mk tear/j.strong is good for this. When the Val tries to mix it up, carefully spaced back/forward dashes into standing jab starts to make her second guess her angle of approach.

Now getting out of blockstun vs. Val with an assist is a different story.

If she has an assist I hope to all that is good that you have one as well, get the hell out of there, throw a tear down to cover your assist call and the area you're about to cover, and jump with j.jab. My success with that seems to be pretty steady, depending on how the val adapts.

Also after a successfully pushblocked J.hp, I never try meeting her in the air for the second round, because it's almost always j.mp, which from that angle is going so squash whatever you'll try to do, better off backdashing to maintain a sense of space.
 
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If i super jump towards him im just going to land into vals sweet spot and allow a low/throw/crossup mixup as im landing. If i try to make space, he can just chase me down via double jump j.mk airdash j.hp or whatever...

Yeah, normal Superjump Forward isn't the best method of approach since val's good air buttons will beat out Para's at that range. Only if you had the early read before they are hanging in the air and you can come in with a predictive air grab, after which you can then play a "air grab or not" game with val, but it won't work if they are already significantly above you. What I like to try instead is neutral/back Superjump float forward. Technically, it could (and should) lose to reaction air bypass or air EKG, but most of the time I see vals either stop in their jumping tracks (which gives you a little more space to get in, and if you know they will jump back again when they land, you can catch them with an airgrab) or they can try to airdash and/or MP/HP/HK in response which you can handle at that full height with a xxjHP. The key is that if they are looking at only the air space for their way to get in, you use the float to occupy a good height to challenge that space and make them think a little more on their air spacing.

If you want an actual crazy experimental option, I've been playing with Superjump forward jHK lately. It's pretty silly since it doesn't actually confirm into anything, but it's surprisingly fast and a good hitbox at that speed and area coverage, Para's own hurtbox is smaller so you can avoid a couple of things, and it's floaty enough so that on block or hit it gives you enough time to think about the next move. On whiff it covers roughly the same distance as Superjump float forward but might be faster? Not getting hit by DP assists is more of a timing/spacing thing so use at own discretion.

As for trying to make space, I do think Superjump Back Float Back is safe enough and I don't feel like I've been caught by any val's by doing that, though I dunno if you are looking for a desperate escape option or for a more neutral one, because my method will lock you out of assist which would be bad for your neutral.

I feel the exact same way and I'm running into the same problems. Even if you try to super jump your usually put in to preblock because of her shurikens or val's air normals just beat yours because of her height.

the one that gives me most trouble is Outlaw_spike's cuz he plays a solo val and for some reason i play solo against him to try to get an understanding of a para val match up.

Months ago when I played Outlaw_spike fairly infrequently (before we started playing a little more), he would definitely do this thing in neutral that I think you are talking about: he'd get into jump/double jump height a little outside of (Para) jHP range, throw air shuriken and then airdash forward jMP, right? It was something that gave me a lot of trouble at first too, since getting into that space is easy enough (too far to jump in air grab or other Para Anti-Airs, too close for MP Shot) and it locks down a lot of what para can do. What I started doing was what I described above, where I would pre-emptively try to occupy a high air space with Superjump Float to make some way in that way. If he wasn't in range for me, then at worst I wouldn't get locked down by that approach, and if at best he approached when I was floating in range then it's prime time for airgrab/jLP/etc. I think you can react to a reaction air bypass by canceling float, though I dunno if that'd work for reaction EKG.

Also, Outlaw_Spike upbacks a lot (or used to), in neutral and out of combos. Hopes this helps :v (<3 you outlaw)

I personally find that the matchup is in Parasoul's favor.

I feel like Parasoul's best tools in this matchup are her versatile tear throws, jump jab, jump back fierce and standing jab.

My opinion is that Parasoul does her best when she's dashing around the screen with her tears up, making in unfavorable for Val to do the things she wants in the air, held Mk tear/j.strong is good for this. When the Val tries to mix it up, carefully spaced back/forward dashes into standing jab starts to make her second guess her angle of approach.

I don't think any of these things you mentioned actually work in the Val MU. Jump Jab doesn't work at a lot of spaces, and won't work at all at an Air-Happy Val since usually they are already in the air and once they are above you they can beat jLP with almost any of their buttons. Jump back fierce isn't great I find either, since any val that's running in can use several of their options (sHK mostly) to react and deal with it, and doing back jump fierce more than once is just an invitation for the val to carefully change their air trajectory (which is easy thanks to her many options) which will give them a way to move in when you whiff, putting you into the corner where Jump Fierce is really poor. Standing jab isn't really consistent I find at all as an anti-air even out of a backdash as you describe; it doesn't cover val's heights at all and has quite the recovery to deal with on whiff that you can't throw it out. Having tears up is okay but largely specific on when you actually set up the tears/where they are/how you detonate them so its hard to comment on that. And I have no idea why you'd ever use Jump Strong in neutral from parasoul even as a way to detonate air tears.

I do think, though, that Val is one of the better MU's to practice superjump floating against. She's not filia fast, no weird things to worry about like against fortune, and you can generally react to what she does.
 
What I've found is that super jumping up/back then holding an air tear toss so that its still in the air instead of it falling to the ground, then jumping up and using it to float gets you a lot of height. It even gets you above val which is useful in the match up. It takes a while to set up which is its main draw.

Its especially useful against fuku since she has the horizontal air fire balls and you can't jump over her heavy punch clone, its literally a wall that you cant super jump over. Thanks mike.
 
If you can space them correctly, I think j.lp and j.lk will stop val in her tracks. You generally want to jump before she does though. If she is above, para souls grab is really good because of its range and the awkwardness of vals hitboxes. Also j.lk just destroys alot of val options in the air, and even deters jumping because of its horizontal range. It's not perfect, but it's a great tool against val
 
Is j.mp worth using if the Val gets above you somehow, or should you just block and pray at that point?

(I've been struggling as Para vs. Val and PW recently, for the exact same reason. Probably time to actually learn how to use the float well from the sounds of things).
 
I use the "block and pray" strategy trying to set up an air throw. Once you land a hit on Val, PS is in god shape, but that first hit is a bear.
 
Is j.mp worth using if the Val gets above you somehow, or should you just block and pray at that point?

(I've been struggling as Para vs. Val and PW recently, for the exact same reason. Probably time to actually learn how to use the float well from the sounds of things).
If she's above you and she's already committed to a move, use piller. Vals ad will not escape it. And she can't block mid dash (obviously). So val is very counterable, if she is predictable. However, val para is a very mind game heavy matchup, so be prepared for baiting
 
What I've found is that super jumping up/back then holding an air tear toss so that its still in the air instead of it falling to the ground, then jumping up and using it to float gets you a lot of height. It even gets you above val which is useful in the match up. It takes a while to set up which is its main draw.

I pretty much exclusively do this but with grounded tosses: L toss placed close for immediate bomb jump (which admittedly is the same height as a Superjump), M Toss if I want to set up a higher/longer jump like you describe. However, I think it's too risky when Val is nearer than MP Napalm Shot range since it puts you right in val's face if you aren't ready to immediately come down with a button.

If she's above you and she's already committed to a move, use piller. Vals ad will not escape it.

This is height dependent, but in general I don't like going for actual "save down-charge and prepare to pillar" as an anti-air in almost any MU at all for para. A lot of jump-ins are too fast and a lot of the time will land on the ground to block before the active part of pillar. At that point, you are risking getting overheaded just for the slight chance for a slow anti-air that's super unsafe. You can maybe do it once, but once it's been established as an option, any character with a double jump can easily bait it out. Yeah, if the val is just mindlessly going in for AD jMP/jHP pressure and you're cornered and you got the read on it, yeah Napalm Pillar works well, but as you said later it's a very mind-game heavy MU I feel and this is part of it.

Is j.mp worth using if the Val gets above you somehow, or should you just block and pray at that point?

If she's right above you, point blank? If so, then honestly, I think the only good option is blocking, pusblocking and running away, and becomes not really a MU thing but just pure defensive experience. If midscreen, pushblock and backdash to immediate safety (this is vulnerable to air scalpels so its not perfect), and if in corner pushblock and either predictive airgrab (fairly risky) or dash under and get ready for more blocking.

Or invincible/armored assists or w/e, I dunno anything about those. :(
 
@fenster what I meant overall with my comment is that vals generally will resort to brain dead pressure when they see a lack of reaction. That's why pillar being a good to great reversal will make them second guess their pressure. Which will slow down vals momentum, and give parasoul an easier approach. My point is: val has an easier time if her approaches and pressure strings are not reacted to. If you vary your reaction you make them think and possibly make them second guess, making errors more frequent. And not just pillar, if that was what was gathered from my comment
 
Is j.mp worth using if the Val gets above you somehow, or should you just block and pray at that point?

(I've been struggling as Para vs. Val and PW recently, for the exact same reason. Probably time to actually learn how to use the float well from the sounds of things).
If that Val is trying to J.mp while she's above you the same time you do J.mp from below, you win.

If people are struggling with this matchup, cools.

If anyone actually thinks this matchup is in Val's favor, you either need to play Val or play the matchup more to see how Val is actually limited.

We're talking 1 to 1 matchups here? Correct?

Why is Val ever JUST ABOVE YOU? It's your job to not let her get there, and you have ALL the tools to stop her.

When Val gets her hands on Parasoul, it gets a little dicey because of Parasoul being so easy to reset in the air, but at least Parasoul has her Pillar, her level 1, and her level 3 to kind of slow things down.

When Para gets her hands on Val, it's even worse. It's hell. What does Val actually have other than "dear god hope I guess correctly with this backdash or level 2"?

Para fairs better in the reset game than Val and controls the neutral.

There's not really much a Val is going to do by herself versus a competent Para.

Fullscreen, hail mary bypass? Midscreen, for for a lucky crossup J.Hp or go in with an obvious J.mp? Close up, gets handled completely?
 
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For what it's worth, I don't feel limited in the Val vs Parasoul matchup unless there's an anti-air assist in the mix. Without something extra to swat Val out of her air approach, Valentine does not have many problems playing outside of Parasoul's effective ranges and threatening with doublejump to bait Pillar when on offense. With a DP assist evening the playing field, it feels more about reads and baits rather than abusing matchup specifics... that is, until updo gets baited or locked out, then it's Val advantage again.

If Parasoul DOES get in on Val, then yeah it's painful, but every matchup in the game is painful once you're on the recieving end of pressure+mixups. Proper pushblocking can alleviate the pressure, but this is just a stacked situation no matter which way you cut it, no matter what characters are involved.

However, up-close defense is less important than neutral game defense since that's what prevents you from getting in close-pressure situations in the first place, and Val excels at neutral game defense due to her ability to escape the ideal ranges of characters completely (Jump upback->Doublejump->Airdash->j.MK, Superjump upback, etc), which lets her reset the situation to neutral when she doesn't like it to try again, as well as be able to put j.HK on screen as well to deny airspace as well as alter her trajectories after with airbackdash doublejump, airdash j.MK, etc. Parasoul's j.HP does contest j.HK, but Val has more ways to put j.HK on the screen than Parasoul has ways to put j.HP on the screen.

Parasoul's j.MP is underutilised in the matchup imo, since it does cover some important angles Val likes to approach at, with an appropriate jump. Its best feature isn't just as a standalone poke that covers the specific angle, but that it can chain into j.HP to bring Val down on block, or to convert.
 
Actually, yes, let's get some Vals in here to talk about this.

I don't think this matchup is free for Parasoul, but I feel like Val has to make some stupid hard reads while Parasoul just has to react correctly.

Remember, we're talking Val alone, because my answer with "Val with assist" is "Get an assist".
 
If solo vs solo, then it's cat(soul) & mouse(val) game, with Val's runaway helping facilitate dropping down directly ontop of Parasoul, and Parasoul(most characters, even) has issues with directly vertical anti-airs. She has pillar(unsafe on blocK) and c.HP(no-one uses this as an anti-air, is unsafe on block and probably still negative when egret cancelled vs air/chicken guard? Requires testing) which is negative on block, and maybe air throw to beat blocking both options. At that point, it's a bunch of reads where the risk reward is in Val's favour-

Pillar anti-air: Blockable, double jumpable, can cancel into bikes on block/whiff/hit but still punishable when cancelled with chicken guard or pushblock. Reward is Val gets off you, Risk is full counter hit combo and Pillar possibly even whiffing due to dead zone.

c.HP anti-air- Blockable, double jumpable, can egret cancel or cancel into pillar. Reward is potentially a full combo depending on angle if c.HP hits, or just a gtfo. Reward is maybe a full combo, more likely just her getting off you, risk is being put in mixup negatives or even punishable negatives even if egret cancelled(maybe, requires test), put into "do I dp or not dp" mixup situation if you choose to dp instead. Its hitbox also isn't amazing and if Val is jumping in at crossup j.HP angle then Val will probably avoid the hitbox of c.HP anyway.

Air throw anti-air- Must be air teched, but can be hit on the way up. One of Parasoul's best tools against Val is air throw, and dash air throw is fantastic neutral. Its reward is a heavily scaled combo into resets, its risk is being counter hit out of it or Val not being in the place you expect when you air throw.

Chicken block is not an enticing option vs descending Val since that is essentially an invitation to be put into more pressure due to Val's air mobility options canceling her air normals.

In a directly horizontal footsie battle, Parasoul does have strong advantages but Val can steer the game in a direction where the advantage is irrelevant.
 
I personally feel that it's Cat(val) and Mouse(Para).

Para doesn't really have to approach nor does I think she wins this match by approaching.

Start of the round mp tear into jab tear means that Parasoul starts off doing what she wants.

She could even mp tear into bike and now Val has to deal with it, she can't take to the skies because Parasoul's covering that if she wanted, and the ground has Bike.

I don't feel that jump mk is a real threat to Parasoul.

The buttons to look out for are mp and hp.

If the Val wants to be direct with it she'll probably mp, which takes commitment, a proper reaction of any kind beats that. If she's trying to read something or bait something she'll hp, which is a risk because of it's startup, it can and will be stuffed before it actually starts with an airthrow or jump jab into a combo.

I don't feel like there's ever a reason for Val to be directly above Parasoul unless he makes the read and bypasses a shot or bike or tear, but why would Parasoul be full screen doing that anyways?
 
Val can get directly above Para with a jump back -> jump forward or something similar. She'll be too high for a j.hp to hit a grounded Para, but Dead Cross will do well enough to at least give her an in, possibly a conversion depending on height.
 
I was going to post this as a general question, but since I was using Val mostly I'll post it here. I'm wondering what you can do about the j. lp/hp/air throw mixup from Parasoul. I was told you're supposed to upback to beat those buttons but that gets eaten up by air throw which is the same range practically. I guess I need to play much more defensively and only stick to things like jump back HK against aggressive Parasouls because it really doesn't feel like Val's buttons beat Parasoul's in the air at all.
 
I was going to post this as a general question, but since I was using Val mostly I'll post it here. I'm wondering what you can do about the j. lp/hp/air throw mixup from Parasoul. I was told you're supposed to upback to beat those buttons but that gets eaten up by air throw which is the same range practically. I guess I need to play much more defensively and only stick to things like jump back HK against aggressive Parasouls because it really doesn't feel like Val's buttons beat Parasoul's in the air at all.


You have to stay out of range of those buttons. You can induce fear to stay out of range by using an updo or pillar assist.

Parasouls air buttons shit all over vals, but val has the mobility advantage. Parasoul wants to get in in this matchup because zoning vals mobility is quite hard. So, knowing this, just use an anti air assist.
 
Hmm yeah I didn't have an anti air(My team symbols are out of date if you're wondering...). Looks like the only thing to do is wait for Eliza.

For what it's worth I think this matchup is even at best for Val 1 on 1. The Shuriken nerf hurt her zoning and she can't match Parasoul up close.
 
Parasouls air buttons shit all over vals, but val has the mobility advantage. Parasoul wants to get in in this matchup because zoning vals mobility is quite hard. So, knowing this, just use an anti air assist.

Ok for real? Any time i try to air to air val my buttons get beat by all of hers, if she presses mp, hp, or hk heck all 6 of her buttons it feels like i loose to any of them. Even if i try to air grab it just loses to her buttons or she's not in range. No matter who the val is. Its conditioned me to not challenge her in the air or on the ground. I fell like i have no tools for this match up because everything i do is avoided or beaten.

All i feel i can do is run away and hope that val screws up.
 
Ok for real?
Yeah, for real. Coming from someone who plays this matchup from both sides, Parasoul's air buttons beat Val's horribly. The tricky part is moving yourself into a position where it matters. Super jump and float help.
 
Yeah, for real. Coming from someone who plays this matchup from both sides, Parasoul's air buttons beat Val's horribly. The tricky part is moving yourself into a position where it matters. Super jump and float help.
but val can stay above val's super jump/float height.
 
but val can stay above val's super jump/float height.
If she's doing that, the only way she can hit you is Dead Cross, which is easy to evade since it covers so little area. And she can't stay up there forever.

Yeah, she can stall the match for a few seconds, but unless the timer is about to run out, who cares? Just don't do anything rash.
 
I was going to post this as a general question, but since I was using Val mostly I'll post it here. I'm wondering what you can do about the j. lp/hp/air throw mixup from Parasoul. I was told you're supposed to upback to beat those buttons but that gets eaten up by air throw which is the same range practically. I guess I need to play much more defensively and only stick to things like jump back HK against aggressive Parasouls because it really doesn't feel like Val's buttons beat Parasoul's in the air at all.
Don't jump with Parasoul.
Either be already above her, or don't jump.
 
Yeah, she can stall the match for a few seconds, but unless the timer is about to run out, who cares? Just don't do anything rash.

True, that's good advice. I just psyche out myself if Val is just jumping all over the place and i can't do anything about. That's when i try to attack her and put myself in a bad position. Though if she hits you with dead cross she can combo off it and if you end up blocking dead cross your open to mix ups. This is the other thing that gets me uneasy in the match up and I lose the focus to stay my ground.
 
I dead up think that a ton of characters beat Val 1-1, and even with assists, it isn't so bad unless you block the assist about 3-4 times, allowing the Val to get a beat on you and your tendencies.

People just don't want to play footsies.

Val was probably built from the ground up with heavy consideration for footsies, she just does it in an unconventional way.
 
True, that's good advice. I just psyche out myself if Val is just jumping all over the place and i can't do anything about. That's when i try to attack her and put myself in a bad position. Though if she hits you with dead cross she can combo off it and if you end up blocking dead cross your open to mix ups. This is the other thing that gets me uneasy in the match up and I lose the focus to stay my ground.
If she's sitting at the top of the screen then she's already used her air dash, so if you block Dead Cross, she really doesn't get any mixup at all unless you decided to sit right under her for some unfathomable reason and then decided not to pushblock whatever normal as she comes down.
 
I think a good way to train yourself into fighting both Fortune and Val is to just count their air options, play a bunch of matches against good players, and count their movements.

"Okay so Val already backdashed into air dash, she has x and x and x left".

Okay, so Fortune has already double jumped, she has x and x left"

The less movement options those characters have, the less they're going to convert from their scramble hits.
 
If she's sitting at the top of the screen then she's already used her air dash, so if you block Dead Cross, she really doesn't get any mixup at all unless you decided to sit right under her for some unfathomable reason and then decided not to pushblock whatever normal as she comes down.

Derp that's me I'm bad at video games.