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Painwheel tricks and resets

theDMAGS said:
Do you guys ever use the unfly to bait out reversals? I've had pretty good success with it, especially since it's instant and I think a lot of people that don't play PW autopilot reversal when they see cancelling into fly off of blocked normals. So if the opponent blocks a j.mk, cancel into fly xx unfly and just airblock for example.

Unfly into block is pretty much always safe. I think it is probably pretty unnecessary most times as charged j.hp > thresher also baits reversals. Charged s.hp too. If the reversal isn't invulnerable, you're better off going for a j.lp/lk as you'll beat out even mashed jabs.
 
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Yo guys. If you plink s.HP with your corresponding assist button (HP,LK for Assist 1 or HP,MK for Assist 2) during your cr.MK,s.HP gatling with Painwheel, it sets up a perfect timing for Eliza's Carpenter's Axe (It's a fairly large window during or before cr.MK active frames). This will catch Up+Back, despite being an overhead (Meaning they have to stand block). I'm looking into Option-selects/set plays, because I think you can use it to body a lot of reversal supers/DPs. It looks like it can stop certain characters from advancing forward during their animations, allowing Painwheel to punish.

It looks like it also generates hitstop for both characters (More on Eliza). This opens the door for a lot of setups/confirms in a variety of situations... maybe.

If you call assist, then cancel your s.HP into Fly, then unfly, and block until after the Overhead connects, you get a nice High then Low that should win out against 1st frame reversals fairly universally that's easy to confirm off of. Mix this with other stuff to keep them guessing.

Carpenter's Axe might also be pretty sweet for the Peacock matchup. Look at that range, and all that armor. *drool*

I'm ogling Painwheel/Eliza/Double with a return to Bomber. My experiments with Cilia Slide helped a lot.
 
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Here's a gimmick Painwheel/Cerecopter reset. The timing on Valentine is easy (plink s.MP into your assist button) but I haven't put much time into testing it on other characters because I didn't have time to learn Painwheel for Evo.

 
Krackatoa said:
I'm ogling Painwheel/Eliza/Double with a return to Bomber. My experiments with Cilia Slide helped a lot.

You should let me know how that team works out for you. I imagine you'll be begging for meter half way through a match, no?
 
Is it possible to jump out of that cerecopter reset?
 
LaowPing said:
Is it possible to jump out of that cerecopter reset?
It beats anyone holding up or upback if you time it properly (there's a chance that I didn't quite do it fast enough in the video). If valentine still has has double jump I guess she might have enough time to double jump out of it if she times it right.
 
Here's a fast and easy crossup/reset that might be a "no shit" to a lot of you.

c.lk > c.mk > s.hp x fly > 3j.lk > 6j.lp uncombo 5j.hk (may have to tweak the direction some depending on the character).

It works on the entire cast except Double and Fortune. Depending on how quickly you go into the j.hk it will either uncombo and reset as an overhead (if you do it quickly) or crossup and reset if you do it slightly less quickly.

Best part is, it beats most mashes: Death Crawl, Cat Scratch Fever, Gregor, Scalpels, Bypass.

It does not beat: DPs (though I imagine it would beat out DP assists... I'll check later) or Diamond Dynamo (I probably wouldn't use it vs Bella often to be honest).
 
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Are you supposed to jump after 3j.lp? Also, this just gave me an idea for a burst bait set up. You could probably use j.lp, j.lk and jump into a j.lp. Though I'm sure sure someone has thought of that before
 
Yeah, you'll jump. Not really sure how to note that, to be honest.
 
Does it work against crouchers?
 
Buer forces the opponent into a standing position, so, yes.
 
Yeah I didn't practice against crouchers, and I didn't use buer... but I imagine it isn't much more difficult. Instead of 3j.lk do 6j.lk. I'll have to fuck around with it some. I've not had a ton of hands-on with it short of seeing if it beat mashes.

I found it while looking for a burst bait which is the same thing but 6j.lk x fly. It is hard to tell if it will work against a person. It definitely gets caught in the burst for a masher, but people without the instant reflexes of the training dummy... maybe?
 
LaowPing said:
Buer forces the opponent into a standing position, so, yes.


There is no buer in his notation... Which is why i asked the question.

Anyways @Spencer, it does look like a good option for yet another different type of crossup reset. Right now I'm trying to run as many resets against my opponents as possible and so this will be a welcome addition if it works against crouchers... Might be a little annoying for me personally to do if it doesnt work against the majority of crouchers though.
 
I just assumed you were using buer in your combo (why wouldn't you after all?)
 
LaowPing said:
I just assumed you were using buer in your combo (why wouldn't you after all?)
Because it looks like the first string. Why WOULD you use buer in the first string of a midscreen combo?
 
Didn't look like the first strong to me (why reset in the first string?) Also, buer always does great damage, especially early on. Notice how every combo posted on the combo forums is cr.lk, cr.mk, s.hp, lk BUER
 
That is a bad hitconfirm imo. IT lowers the range of it and hardly adds any damage at all (buer scales 2 hits). It makes sense from the second string onwards or in the corner where you can go into much heavier hitting strings off a HK Buer.

EDIT: 2LK 2MK 5HP xx fly 3j.LK is the normal hitconfirm. ie. the first string.
 
Of course its the first string... Also, buer starter combos are wack for a number of reasons. Biggest one being shit range, smallest one being that they dont do more damage than the other combos since buer scales damage down to 50%.
 
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The first string, you don't need buer. It scales better late.

Ignoring for a second that using buer in the first string causes green sparks.

My bnb:
w/ buer: 7332
w/o buer: 7335
 
Tomo009 said:
That is a bad hitconfirm imo. IT lowers the range of it and hardly adds any damage at all (buer scales 2 hits). It makes sense from the second string onwards or in the corner where you can go into much heavier hitting strings off a HK Buer.

EDIT: 2LK 2MK 5HP xx fly 3j.LK is the normal hitconfirm. ie. the first string.

I don't think I've every seen a painwheel player actually start of that way. I know it's possible, but not normal. Buer gives more time to confirm if anything. And the damage it gives makes up for the scaling.
 
And first string resets are great for when your opponent doesnt expect them (they arent mashing yet) especially when painwheel has such good damage up front on her combos, plus first string reset are very low undizzy and allow a full combo afterwards. So it can basically pump up your combo damage by 3k or so.
 
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The thing is... you kind of have to do it early. You're going to eat up your lp and lk fast as far as IPS is concerned.

It works best after a throw since you're already scaled, you should generally reset early.

Plus, if you start with a j.mp (or j.hp and j.hk), you should definitely reset early... so chain 1 resets aren't a terrible thing. It is going to scale you so hard that your damage becomes shit (6.6 for full bnb), and you're going to be feeding meter like you're paid to... not to mention you don't build undizzy, so after that early reset... do a full combo, get your big damage, and take happiness in the fact that they won't be quite so meter-full.

Edit: well ignore that last bit as you still scale with j.hp... but you know what I mean!
 
LaowPing said:
I don't think I've every seen a painwheel player actually start of that way. I know it's possible, but not normal. Buer gives more time to confirm if anything. And the damage it gives makes up for the scaling.
From memory the Buer adds like 10 damage... yeah all of 10. To shorten the range you can confirm from when her confirm range is already nerfed over vanilla PW and make the followup slightly harder for no reason.
 
I posted my bnb damage above. I actually get more without buer in the first string... and it doesn't give me green sparks.
 
LaowPing said:
I don't think I've every seen a painwheel player actually start of that way. I know it's possible, but not normal. Buer gives more time to confirm if anything. And the damage it gives makes up for the scaling.


Then you havent been watching enough painwheels or enough matches of painwheels. Negus and elda and even mmds all use buer starters... But it doesnt do them any good. Also, they have to switch up their combo if it happy birthdays since buer doesnt combo 2 characters...

So buer openers:

Have less range
Cant happy birthday
Dont do any more damage than non buer starters



There's little reason to use buer starters.

The prime thing they give is more damage on 1 and 2 string combos and leave the opponent standing.

Thats pretty much it.
 
Dime_x said:
Then you havent been watching enough painwheels or enough matches of painwheels. Negus and elda and even mmds all use buer starters... But it doesnt do them any good. Also, they have to switch up their combo if it happy birthdays since buer doesnt combo 2 characters...

So buer openers:

Have less range
Cant happy birthday
Dont do any more damage than non buer starters



There's little reason to use buer starters.

The prime thing they give is more damage on 1 and 2 string combos and leave the opponent standing.

Thats pretty much it.

I still don't see the point. In a game so based on resets, why not use your scaling early and get the damage? I can react to happy birthdays and adjust, and the damage only seems to apply to very legnthy combos (which, realistically, you won't always get the chance to do because you'll need to reset or you're oppenent wont need to be killed with a full combo. And even then, it's ten points of damage. Incredibly low chances of making a difference.

@Spencer as far as resetting early goes, I can understand if it's after a grab but j.mp doesn't scale down that much for me. I only lose 300 or so on my 8.5k bnb.
 
I'd be curious what your combo is? A corner carry is my guess?
 
8.5 k midscreen bnb... I want to see the notation on this
 
It the one krak posted on the combo forums. And it is corner carry. Spencer, is your combo the one you did on Valentine that you posted on YouTube?
 
LaowPing said:
It the one krak posted on the combo forums. And it is corner carry. Spencer, is your combo the one you did on Valentine that you posted on YouTube?
Oh ok... Yeah corner carries arent midscreen combos seeing as to how they require the corner at some point.

I still dont see how "more range" means nothing to you, but i guess. "More range" is the reason why i dont use buer starters. And... It actually comes up quite a bit... At least 1 in 10 neutral confirms require me to change my combo to a more ranged one on reaction, and if i used buer starters it would probably be 1 in 5.

But hey... As the saying goes "if it works for you"

Just dont assume that you are optimized as far as confirms go... Cause you arent.
 
The range is usually not a problem for me. And for optimization, it realy depends on the player. I've been trying to learn to reset early, around the time that my combo is maxed scaled (or just when i reach the corner). So for me, buer comfirms are better. Or as you like to put it, "optimized"
 
If you're catching your opponent airborn, and they're not heavies, you should probably omit Buer. When you land a hit and they're grounded, it doesn't matter.


Here's some stuff.
 
Lol, loved the grab reset loop at the end. I forgot you could do that since i usually flight cancel into an overheard instead if I'm going to reset that soon. Still, nice stuff
 
Add HI to any grab resets and it becomes super sexy. Those lovely jump combos got nothin' on three back to back enhanced throws.
 
Lol... I need to record a video of my stuff...

But i cant edit... Bah. Notation should be good enough.
 
Been thinking about something. Spencer, how are you getting green sparks with early buer? IPS shouldn't be tracking.
 
IPS starts tracking the buer, I believe, as the buer is the start of the next chain (so an extra +20), not the end of the first chain.

I'll check when I get home to be thorough.
 
when you guys say "buer starters" , do you simply mean ending your first loop in lk buer ( c.lk, c.mk, s.hp xx lk.buer for example ) or rather, beginning a combo with buer?

If you're talking about the former, then the "more range" is huge for me. I can't tell you how many time's I've landed a hit midscreen only to have the lk.buer whiff because I'm just a tad too far out.

I didn't realize how similar the damage output is when using ( or not using ) buer in your opening loop for midscreen combos, this is great to know.

Carry on :-)
 
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stack on damage as fast as possible guys, this is skullgirls

edit: also
Spencer said:
IPS starts tracking the buer, I believe, as the buer is the start of the next chain (so an extra +20), not the end of the first chain.
that makes no sense whatsoever
 
CaioLugon said:
stack on damage as fast as possible guys, this is skullgirls

THANK YOU!!!

Also, buer is the end of the first string for me. You must be doing a weird combo.
 
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