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Painwheel tricks and resets

Krackatoa said:
It's in like... every combo video I've ever done. lol

It was really important when throws became Stage 2. When combos got nerfed, it actually jacked up PW's damage a lot relatively to the rest of the cast.

I've always just thrown > j.mp to combo. How much damage am I missing out on here?
 
Spencer said:
I've always just thrown > j.mp to combo. How much damage am I missing out on here?

Probably losing the OTG and definitely losing some carry. Scaling probably isn't too hot either.

If you can't do the buer cancel thing comfortably, I'd recommend using throw > fly > j.mk to preserve OTG and get some carry.
 
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Spencer said:
I've always just thrown > j.mp to combo. How much damage am I missing out on here?

Not bad, but throw puts you to 8 hits. j.MP puts you to near full scaling, and you burn your carry and miss out on a half-scaled, no-Undizzy cr.MK,s.HP xx Buer string, which is more valuable at the start of a combo than a j.MP, which is more useful at the end of a combo (j.MP actually does more damage relative to it's Undizzy value compared to almost every single move at max scaling in PW's arsenal... save for Buer).

You also burn OTG...
 
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hlvn said:
Probably losing the OTG and definitely losing some carry. Scaling probably isn't too hot either.

If you can't do the buer cancel thing comfortably, I'd recommend using throw > fly > j.mk to preserve OTG and get some carry.

AH shit, I said mp, I do j.mk. My bad.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
How do you get up close to characters like Parasoul without getting into the air?

You make her think you're going to jump, then you approach or capitalize on her misplaced anti-air option.

If you don't take to the air, occasionally, you'll never get in. Parasoul needs to have some prediction to shut down Painwheel. She can't play a reactionary game exclusively. Some of your options require preemptive action to shut down. I highly recommend flying and unflying a lot, to keep her guessing. If a player gets a bead on your movements, you're going to be stopped cold.

Make sure you're trying to intercept her options, as opposed to throwing stuff out and hoping it hits.

Are you solo-wheel? If so, you're going to have some issues approaching a team. You have to approach, bait the assist, and approach again. That's what you get for solo.
 
I never really see it mentioned because it's pretty straightforward, but any time you get a hit and confirm into cMK stHP fly jLK and just fly jLK again because you expect them to be holding downback for the next ground chain seems pretty reliable.

When do you guys like to go for this in terms of match/set pacing? Are there other early resets that you like to use for keeping undizzy low and going ham? stLP fly crossup still seems reasonable as well.

With the recent changes that kind of lowered Painwheel's max damage, I'm really feeling like this sort of low undizzy reset is going to be the way to go moving forward.
 
hlvn said:
I never really see it mentioned because it's pretty straightforward, but any time you get a hit and confirm into cMK stHP fly jLK and just fly jLK again because you expect them to be holding downback for the next ground chain seems pretty reliable.
Better to just Throw them. The refly is really really slow.
 
hlvn said:
I never really see it mentioned because it's pretty straightforward, but any time you get a hit and confirm into cMK stHP fly jLK and just fly jLK again because you expect them to be holding downback for the next ground chain seems pretty reliable.

You have to delay, wait for the refly cooldown to finish, and fly cancel the j.LK, not land and fly again, as it's reactable (22 Frames vs. 17 Frames).
 
Depending on how seasoned your foe is, going for uncombo>low is a better bet, since so many people think of PW as having only highs.
 
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What uncombo? I'm not familiar with that term.

I felt like c.LP>c.LK didn't get me anywhere with Parasoul.
It's usually the seasoned players I have trouble with since they are really solid on their offense.
 
uncombo = stop comboing, aka wait.
 
I'm a huge fan of uncombo into throw as well... especially when you've got HI going.
 
konkrete said:
Depending on how seasoned your foe is, going for uncombo>low is a better bet, since so many people think of PW as having only highs.
Right now, outside of Beta, LK.Buer xx Fly > (Delay)9.j.LK xx Fly > 3j.LK is invisible and works if they're switching their block to Low by default.
 
konkrete said:
Depending on how seasoned your foe is, going for uncombo>low is a better bet, since so many people think of PW as having only highs.

Kind of had the opposite experience where people default to blocking whatever they feel the next chain will be. i.e., if flying block high if grounded, low.

Then they get popped by ankle checks like airthrow/jMP whiff > low, jLK > uncombo fly jLK, or just low > uncombo low. If they're not just mashing anyways.

I guess all three can work, just recognize whether they can react to flies or not?
 
Krackatoa said:
Right now, outside of Beta, LK.Buer xx Fly > (Delay)9.j.LK xx Fly > 3j.LK is invisible and works if they're switching their block to Low by default.
All the beta changes are in retail now (For almost two weeks now), so you can't do another flight cancel after canceling a buer
 
I found in the event they block the low you can go into a grab right after their first block some of the time.
In theory since it's the corner if they push-blocked the grab would still work. Hasn't worked on Bella, though.

I do enjoy fighting Cerebella for some reason; it's very challenging but I can manage to get away from her.
It allows me to pace myself a little bit with each new idea that comes to mind.

Parasoul has gotten to be less difficult for me, but I'm not quite where I need to be yet.
I found the "uncombo" suggestion I got works well with her.
Sometimes blocking low when she smacks you to the ground seems to work, too.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
I found in the event they block the low you can go into a grab right after their first block some of the time.
In theory since it's the corner if they push-blocked the grab would still work. Hasn't worked on Bella, though.

I do enjoy fighting Cerebella for some reason; it's very challenging but I can manage to get away from her.
It allows me to pace myself a little bit with each new idea that comes to mind.

Parasoul has gotten to be less difficult for me, but I'm not quite where I need to be yet.
I found the "uncombo" suggestion I got works well with her.
Sometimes blocking low when she smacks you to the ground seems to work, too.

Yeah it's a classic tick throw. They can't be in blockstun or your throw will whiff.

It does work on Bella (same as any of the cast), but she has a pretty strong ground reversal game and so resets while she's on her feet are risky.

Vs Parasoul you want to really watch your j.mp. I've had some decent success by jumping into her with j.lp/lk. You can also HG through her tears and even her sniper shot (and get a full combo from huge range since it has pretty rough recovery). There seems to be potential with unfly vs her as well.

Blocking low is generally a decent habit to get into, but vs Parasoul be cautious. She has some (two?) pretty solid overheads.
 
Oh believe me, I noticed. I fought a few today and practiced in the corner.
Seems like j.MP+j.MK work pretty well as you said.

I'm pretty sad though; I beat this dude who played Bella+Filia once. Then I lost 11 to 1 later. lol it was pretty bad.
Any time I almostt escaped the corner, Filia came in and shut me down.

With Parasoul he combo is just sooo crazy to handle when she has an assist.
I could not get out at all.

Peacock with Squigly as I learned today makes a pretty good team. Got zoned hardcore.
Went for ground dash+block->ground dash+block to get to her this time. Same result as before; got past the shenanigans.
Then I tried to go for the HG s.HP.
She was all over that; had Lenny hit me as well as the bear trap and some other thing that came from below her.
I would have told him/her how good they were, but they didn't accept my friend request. :/
I really would like to play like 5 rounds with them to figure things out more. It made other peacock's child'splay.
 
PW vs. Squigly.

sHK, jump forward.

Yay character specific crossup reset for no reason.

You can choose whether to combo or uncombo.

 
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hlvn said:
put squigly in the corner, cMP(1-3 hits) sHK, jump forward.

yay character specific crossup reset for no reason.

If you ahve a Double/BB/Huge character one, I'll kiss you square on the mouth.
 
8uzaS.jpg


QCB+MK, Macro(LK+MP), Release Macro, Press HP

Trying to call assist and charge j.HP as a setup. What I got was Fly > Unfly > j.LK

This kinda makes the timing for Armor setups tricky, Macro is registering as an attack button and buffering Unfly(Edit: A normal, it seems).

Oh well, deez Cilia Slide setups are gdlk.

s.HP xx Fly > j.HP(Charge) + Call Low Assist.

Catches Up+Back, catches Down+Back. Catches Jump. Catches Supers. Make them block. O:

(And just shy of an hour and a half later, it's fixed by Mike. gdlk.)
 
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So..... Perhaps a decent way of cataloguing painwheels vast reset options is to simply list the move directly preceding the reset and then listing the reset options after said move? Could be redundant, but could be a good way to catalogue things cause i might list 3 different resets after oh say, cr.mk, and then someone might say.... Hey there's a couple more resets you could there... Like this...


Just to see if there's actual interest here ill list primary reset points, but not the resets themselves. The point being to see if there are any other rest points worth knowing and also to gauge interest in perhaps getting all this information in one post or perhaps a new thread so we dont have to scour a whole bunch of pages of stuff to find something new...

Primary reset points:

St.lp
St.mp
St.hp
St.hk
Lk buer
J.mp
Fly df +j.lp
Fly df +j.lk
Lp stinger


And a different section for burst bait setups:

J.mp (this is the only real burst bait/mixup that i know of)


So, any other good reset points im missing or good burst bait points?
If there's any interest i will list the reset points and burst baits from what i just wrote out, but there's little reason to do all that writing if no one is interested.
 
Because of fly every normal besides sweep can be a point at which to reset.
 
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So, something I've been thinking about as a mix-up option. I was fooling around with fuzzy guard caused by the re-stand state and noticed that you can instant over-head every character in the game if they attempt to crouch after recovering from re-stand...however before I could get too excited I realized that blocking low forces the opponent's hitbox/hurtbox to recede immediately due to the block animation.

Even though this doesn't work, isn't it possible that PW can still instant over-head every character off of a blocked Flight -> 3 j.lk alone? I'll put a demo video up later, but I was using j.lp with Flight cancels to convert.
 
Yes, as long as they don't pb you away you can jump-in normal (maybe not j.lp), instant oh j.lp/lk on everyone. This is easiest to convert from if you do this while they block something like bomber or copter, but pw can convert on her own with instant oh j.lk > fly > df j.lk > land > w/e. I've been doing this for a while
 
Needs to be edited, but this is what I'm talking about.

 
blah-blah-blah cr.hp lp nails can let you cross-under Val and PW with a dash. It also works on Peacock and Squigly, but the timing on nails is different to get them at the right height to cross under. You can continue it, or just use it as a mind-fuck reset.

Basic mid-screen ground rep (buer first rep to make them stand if you need to) lp nails dash-jump j.lk j.hk will let you cross-up tall characters and CONTINUE the combo during the side switch. On other characters it will uncombo and give you the reset. You will have to substitute j.lk with j.lp on Bella to get the hit into the reset. Doesn't work on PW.

Alternatively a ground series that keeps you close (usually no buers) light cr.mk lp nails walk forward jump light delayed j.mk sets up a very simple cross-up
vs Peacock: j.lp reset j.mk is reliable
vs. Filia: j.lk is reliable
vs. Para: both can be used, mess with the timing, j.mk is done a little earlier on her
vs Val: j.lp but it's an unreliable setup
vs. Squigly: j.mk won't work, but you can j.lp into another j.lp. Kind of tricky.
vs. Fortune: Same deal as Squigly
vs. BB/PW/Double: Not applicable

Someone smarter and with better hands try and use these some time D: .
 
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AIGHT PAINPEEPS!!!!!

Ya boy dime who half of you hate and the other half cant stand and the next half have on ignore (heh)... Has made an awesome find for once. (I better get some likes for this... Grumble grumble)

This is the best burst bait mixup that ive been able to find and I'm straight up calling it painwheels best burst bait. However that isnt the magic in itself... The magic is that this burst bait comes from a place where painwheel has mixups a plenty and where the opponent WILL WANT TO MASH. This is no reactive stupid far away no one will bait here cause there are no possible mixups burst bait. This is no armor burst bait... This is no super low jumpin burst bait that can be blocked... This is a true in your face wiff burst bait mixup that you can easily turn into a counterhit st.hp full combo in the corner or into a fly j.mk counterhit combo anywhere. This works and is character specific and is execution intensive midscreen. But in the corner there are 2 versions... One that is character specific and takes a bit of execution, the other that isnt character specific and is totally easy as shit... Pick wisely...anywho the burst baits themselves first and then the mixups that you can put into play once they respect the burst bait:


Burst baits (only the actual combo, how you get the the actual burst move to be ips blocked is on you)


Corner only, universal as far as i can tell:
[ ] indicates the burst point.

Cr.hp xx lp stinger, [jump back j.lp]


Character specific, and can be tough timing, corner only:

Lk buer xx fly [jump back j.lp or j.lk]


Midscreen, extremely hard to setup perfectly unless with an assist probably:

Cr.hp xx lp stinger, dash [jump back j.lp] (see the pattern?)

And i just thought of another as i sit and write this which means that this type of burst bait might actually be available all over the place for painwheel:


St.mp,j.mp(1),j.hp (3-4), j.hk, [jump back j.lp or j.lk]


So anyways those are the burst baits. They are easy to convert off of because you just cancel into fly after hitting with the air burst move. So... No more easy mode reversals for these clowns. If they press buttons and you guessed right... They die to a optimised full counterhit combo...


Anyways, these mixups go without saying, but ill list some here just you know... To show that there are actually viable mixups off of these.... First the weakest mixups:

Cr.hp xx lp stinger, st.lp into a plethora of mixups such as chain into throw, or low, or cancel into fly and and go overhead. This is "weak" because the actual mixup point (after the st.lp) is decently far removed from the timing that the burst bait hits....in which case you can just omit the st.lp and let them recover from the stagger naturally and fall into your low/throw mixup which will keep the timing between burst and mixup very tight.

Ok moving on.


Lk buer xx fly:


Then delay up forward fly j.lp,j.lk for a high, or immediate fly j.mk for a high, or immediate fly j.hp for a staggered high that also keeps them honest about blocking low quickly, after having already blocked high... Which would normally kill painwheels low option here, but the threat of the delayed highs actually opens up her low options. And continuing on the last option is: wiff airthrow or anything, land and throw (this is very quick and is THE PRIME option for resetting from here and hits with near the same timing as the jump back burst bait.

This is timing techable i think, but it is really close and if we are mixing up our resets any kind of decently i dont think the timing issue will become... An issue. Anyways, lots of mixup potential here and this kills any of that button reversal stuff. Best of all these can be used at the end of the combos at full undizzy.


So experiment and have fun :)
 
Why not just a burst bait/air throw 50/50? Achieves the same thing easily with no character specifics anywhere, doesn't it?
 
Tomo009 said:
Why not just a burst bait/air throw 50/50? Achieves the same thing easily with no character specifics anywhere, doesn't it?


Its character specific as far as execution as far as i know and double/BB arent susceptible to the airthrow at all afaik... Or if they are its some near one frame execution afaik.

Also, the only airthrow/burst bait 50/50 that i know of that is somewhat standard is j.mp (4) xx fly airthrow or xx fly down forward j.lp. There are ones that seem a bit easier against others in the cast involving neutral jump and backwards jump j.mp... But they are very character specific. Also, the j.mp reset is usually in the middle of combos and therefor isnt at full scaling/undizzy which is where a burst bait would theoretically be most effective, and finally because throw resets are super low damage so the opponent can simply opt to be thrown and gain mass meter versus being burst baited and killed out right, plus afaik the confirms from that high up are... Harder and are also character or timing specific.


That is unless you know of a different airthrow burst bait 50/50 than the j.mp one? Id love to hear it if you do.

As i it is right now, the ones i outlined are much more streamlined as far as universality, timing for mixup/burst and functionality from confirmation because instead of getting a burst bait and confirming with... An airthrow which is wack.. Or a j.mp.... Which is wack and scales... These lead to full one hit jumpin counter hits or in the case of the buer starter, a st.hp counter..
Which is quite a lot of damage and they also allow unscaled low/high mixups.

So overall im thinking that the damage over the course of 10 resets will be MUCH higher on average.



Correct me if I'm wrong or have missed something.


-edit


Found another one: this may be timing intensive to make work proficiently but at least its another place to throw in a burst bait.

Lp stinger, [max range st.hp xx fly]

The mixup is dashing and raw throwing them after they recover from the lp stinger... Yeah... Thats kinda tough and would probably need to be grinded hard to get the timing good... But if practiced, this could be an incredible burst bait as far as timing is concerned and non character specificness. The opponent would only have painwheels dash as a telegraph as to what might be coming. Unless the hp also requires a slight dash to get in... Hint hint.

Hmmmm.....
 
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@Tomo009

Do you mean her j.mp burst bait? It could be because I play a ton of PW, but that shit looks silly obvious to me. I'm sure I have, but I can't think of a single time it has worked vs me. She's jumping up toward you, it's a throw. She jumps away from you, it's j.mp.

I'm actually usually unimpressed by most of PWs burst bait options (I do like charged moves to "absorb" the burst, but that obviously lets them block, so you usually have to go for a crossup or something) as they seem obvious to me though admittedly, I don't look for them actively.

@Dime_x

I'll try them tomorrow. The only thing I'm hesitant about, is they look like they deviate from normal combos quite a bit (c.hp > stinger) meaning once someone learns them, they become useless. Admittedly, I only skimmed your post as I'm off to bed, so I could be wrong. In any case, I'll give it more time tomorrow.
 
@Spencer

No, if they work the way i think they do (and they do) they arent the kind of thing that gets worse as time goes on...they get better.

These arent "anti random mash" burst baits. These are burst baits that threaten throw (which requires buttons to tech) and punish the defender for guessing tech wrongly.

They also punish the defender for mashing tag at the reset spot, they also punish mashing any reversal at the reset spot. This FORCES the defender to guess perfectly correctly what your reset will be whereas normally, if they know your reset spot all they have to do is mash super or whatever invincible thing they have to beat whatever your reset is.

Case in point:

i do lp stinger then st.lp and either chain low or throw or i guess airthrow or cancel my st.lp into a high or a crossup... Lots of options right? Well mashed tag beats all of them, and if its just about any character such as oh say bella, mashed DD also beats all of them.


So.... We come to the burst bait. This bella knows my reset spot and they mash expecting a low/throw mixup.... But wait..
I did burst bait instead. The bella blows her load and i get a fatty counterhit combo off. This teaches bella not to mash, or suffer the consequences. Which means she, in the future is extremely susceptible to this mixup with a whole lot less fear from me of getting reversaled. Believe me, this makes resets like 10 times more brutal. Its basicalla super high powered bait that when works does shitloads and when it doesnt... Does nothing.
 
So after some prompting from @ClarenceMage, i was informed that not all burst boxes are the same size (which i stupidly did not know) and that i should test out more characters... Which my lazy no time ass is loathe to do... Anyways long story short Clarence is right. The burst boxes are different for every character and while I'm certainly not going to test every character to see what burst baits work on which characters (there are like 4 different burst baits i outlined here that can all be used in a reset mixup vortex)


I will leave it to anyone that wants to to take this info and compile it for there own reasons. I certainly will. I can also say that though the cr.hp xx stinger bait doesnt work against bella or filia, the j.hk one works against bella (but not filia) and the j.mp xx fly down forward j.lp works on filia (but the airthrow is hard to make work against bella) so in my mind all that really needs to be done is find out which burst baits work on who and apply them there... Which will be pretty easy as none of the execution is all that hard, its primarily memory that will be difficult.

When i do compile this when i have time i will probably make a chart as to what works on who like for instance:


Filia:

1. J.mp
2. Lk Buer xx fly b+j.lk

Bella:

1. J.hk

Eliza:

Lk buer xx fly up back+j.lp


I'm pretty sure that lp stinger st.hp xx fly is universal... But i could be wrong and dont exactly have time to test everything right now



Etc etc
 
I'm new to this part of the forums. Has anyone posted about painwheel's j.lp restand? I accidentally found it a few minutes ago while practicing combos. Basically, after H buer in the corner, you can use falling j.lp and either throw, delay low, or flight cancel j.mk. The timing is tight on heavier characters and flight canceling and using j.mk makes it easier but u lose the over head option (unless u learn to instant overhead but that makes you lose damage).
 
For a fun gimmick, you can cancel the second of s.hk into m or h buer to get a cross-under. With cerecopter this lets you do go from the assist into s.hp xx l buer into whatever. It seems pretty character specific though, I only got it to work consistently with Fillia and I didn't play with any fly cancels.

I might make a more detailed post on this later but it's like 3:30 AM and I just wanted to post something actually useful instead of jack tech all day.
 
Anyone ever try wiffing j.hp? It lets you land so quickly. A j.mp or j.mk low to the ground into a wiffed j.hp sets up so many resets. I'm about to see how it works against push block. I don't have much actually play experience so can sometime tell me how people usually go about push blocking j.mp? If this somehow manages to beat pushblock we might have to rethink the tier list.

Edit, just did a quick test in the lab, if the pushblock the first hit they cant push block the rest and you can cancel into j.hp and land if you're low to the ground. If they delay the pushblock you can j.hp early or fly cancel for a counter hit. At least in theory. I won't have the ability to play online until college starts up again.
 
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to beat pushblock:

j.mp(1), kara j.mk, c.lk or fly > j.mk
 
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Wow, didn't know that. Ty, I'll still use the j.hp set up for when I use j.mk first (like in most of my corner combos. It just looks so damn cool).

Edit: just realized it also works as a burst bait option select in the corner. If they burst from j.mp, charged j.hp will absorb it. If they don't, low/throw when you land.
 
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I always go for the j.mp(1) x fly into air throw/another overhead.

You'll eat the shit out of reversals though if you don't start blocking after you get pushblocked.
 
Do you guys ever use the unfly to bait out reversals? I've had pretty good success with it, especially since it's instant and I think a lot of people that don't play PW autopilot reversal when they see cancelling into fly off of blocked normals. So if the opponent blocks a j.mk, cancel into fly xx unfly and just airblock for example.
 
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