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Possible new IPS

ClarenceMage said:
Then what if counter hits had a more distinct sound from regular hits? That's what most other games do, and sound is easier to react to than visuals.

That would certainly take care of the reaction problems but it still makes for balancing issues via character to character and combo to combo... Ie an optimized "filia" combo that can be done to chain 5 on non counterhit, versus her counterhit combo that simply adds 2 chains to the ender... Or say bella who might have to change her second chain into something else in order to get the 2 extra chains at the end of the combo.

That imho would be a decent issue. There are already problems with val being able to convert assist hits more than other characters... Putting execution based balance design decisions tends to skew things as far as balance is concerned.

This is why i was saying that the zero sum of making the combo have lower scaling or a boost to the first hit would be a good thing because it definitely would affect every character mostly the same, with the exception being for characters that have decent neutral game pokes and non metered reversals... Which is kinda negligible but also begs consideration.


Just imho.
 
Zidiane - s.MP, HP LnL wouldn't count as 2 chains if you cancelled it, duder.

Dime - er...yeah, I can't do 1-hit confirms in 3s either. This isn't remotely similar. :^P

People about counterhits - again, experiment. But the flash is now longer. UNfortunately we do not easily have the ability to put an extra word on the screen, believe it or not, or I'd do that. :^(

Ready yourselves for the nexperiment!
 
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I don't program at all, so I have no idea.

How long would it take or how expensive would it be to code an unused voice clip into the game when counterhits happened?
 
I still think when a combo exceeds a certain damage threshhold, that undizzy should increase to avoid TOD scenarios.

It's artificial as hell, but to me the two big issues are boring loops (which are being addressed) and TOD for low resources (partially addressed)
tikwid said:
Didn't get to try out the other experiments, but this version in particular sucks hard. Any sort of fun or out of the box links get punished for adding a chain. Combos are definitely shorter, but combos and burst baits will eventually all look and feel the same, which is just as boring as a long combo.

No matter what Mike Z, combos and burst baits are going to end up going towards whatever is optimal.

The point of this to me is to make the game more fun and closer in line to the original vision which was reset-based. The other big question (which I don't think anyone's asked) is what should be the reward for doing an optimal combo over a standard combo.

Personally, I liked how it was in VF- where in most cases, a open/closed stance combo gave you around 10 more points of damage (about 5%), in some cases 10-15%. That's about where I'd like it see it in SG.

If you are going to make things Counter-based, the counter confirmation needs to be very easy. Maybe as easy as it was in MOTW or like it is in VF where you get huge audio and visual confirms.
 
iLoli said:
I don't program at all, so I have no idea.

How long would it take or how expensive would it be to code an unused voice clip into the game when counterhits happened?
I think that the extra sound clip isn't possible because he can't add more assets whenever he wants or something? If the game doesn't have any text system then he wouldn't be able to add that without adding assets either, but I dunno what Steam's restrictions are.
 
The new system is just about the same as the old from my perspective, except its a little more flexible in what you can do, which is nice.

Only problem is, resets and throw combos seem to allow them to burst really fast now because undizzy starts to pile up starting in stage 3.

iLoli said:
I don't program at all, so I have no idea.

How long would it take or how expensive would it be to code an unused voice clip into the game when counterhits happened?

Please no. We don't need another game where the announcer is doing almost nothing but screaming "COUNTER!" every 5 seconds.
 
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Not the announcer, the characters themselves. Maybe an extra high pitched squeal from the one who got countered or something.
 
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I think the undizzy tracks/adds on too early in this even with CH. As soon as you take them to the air it starts tracking and builds up to 200 pretty quick.
Not a fan of damage and meter loss as usual or the limited combo paths when going for something optimal, but presumably the opponent won't get much meter either since the system was initially geared toward more hits = more meter for the opponent over the attacker.

Slightly off topic: I witnessed something strange twice in both builds and I don't know how to reproduce it, but normally Valentine can't do standing HP xx Lvl 5 super (usually have to do a special move to get enough hitstun to combo into Lvl 5), but at some point after being in training for a while she's somehow able to combo that.
I don't know if that strange phenomenon means the S.HP somehow got more hitstun or if the super somehow got faster startup but I was confused because it's not normal (and apparently wasn't character specific).
All I remember is that I was messing with the meter settings both times before it occurred.
 
Can't wait to try out the next experiment. I like the looks of it a lot. 100 extra undizzy is a pretty big deal.

Perhaps instead of text on screen for CH, would it be easier to have a white flash + make the hit sound beefier?
 
Meter gain and damage are things that can be messed with, without changing the length of combos.
 
I'm not noticing any major differences on Bella. She can do the same things she could last version. She can get a little more, but I don't think it's very different.
 
I don't like that idea. Sounds like giving people lvl 1 X-factor for free and making them a threat with baby's first combo type stuff.
 
Zidiane said:
I'm not noticing any major differences on Bella. She can do the same things she could last version. She can get a little more, but I don't think it's very different.

Her combo paths are more or less the same but throw-resets don't seem to do much now unless you reset during your second chain or something.
 
Jason said:
Her combo paths are more or less the same but throw-resets don't seem to do much now unless you reset during your second chain or something.
I'll have to see what she can get off a grab now. Probably not much.
 
So far i like this new ips, it truncates my combos but i like it more. I like the ch properties taking away undizzy and i like the counter hit now because its actually seeable. Though i dont see any problem with lengthening the ch spark another 5 frames or so.

The way im doing it is, no ch spark equals quick reset, but a ch spark measn i get to do my old combo... I havent yet figured out a go to short combo besides just canceling into super early.
 
By the way, there's a new glitch. Silver Chord does not trigger bursts at all. May extend to other staggering moves.

New Squigly BnBs will probably range around the 7.5k damage range, which is not bad at all. Counterhit stuff probably 1k~1.5k more.
 
Hm, so it's basically Undizzy limit to 200 and on CH you get an extra 200 to use it, right? Do you get more undizzy after DHCs or Tags? I forgot to test that, and I can't check it right now, work.

Combos are shorter and less damaging than before, I'll try to see if I can optimize them a little bit better later tonight. One thing for sure, since the chain build, regular throws are doing no damage for 1 meter. Almost to the point I don't feel that people will fear throws as much, it's like a big "a reset is going to happen, mash stuff now" warning. But I'm not also sure, but regular throws do seem weaker for some of the cast now. Maybe adjust the throw scaling on stuff like this.
 
@Mwisk Not only was undizzy limited to 200, but it also starts adding on at combo stage 3 instead of stage 5. Counter hit only grants an extra 100 undizzy. DHC doesn't give anything extra, but apparently green vials do.
 
Icky said:
Personally I hate counter hit mechanics determining if certain combos are possible or not. Not liking the new experiment

Just as a personal thing?
 
What I like about SG adding allowing a longer combo for CH as opposed to, say, Fatal Counters, is that the extra stuff you do in a CH combo is possible anywhere else. Anything you can do in a CH combo is possible in a regular combo, just not altogether. No specific chain of a combo in a CH combo is CH-only, where as other games you have to learn specific combos for those situations.
 
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With the latest beta IPS thingy, I'm having the hardest time getting 7k damage with Filia, even in the corner. I can do it with herpderp j.HP j.HK but I do all my damage calculations from a c.LK starter.

I'm also pretty sure Cerebella's midscreen damage will be more potent than her corner combos with this.


After testing all this stuff, the game feels really weird with how free form combos are, yet how restrictive they are at the same time. Having 200 stun limit and having it start at stage 3 is kind of too much. Try it at stage 5 maybe?

I'm still in favor of keeping MDE with assist starter scaling. (I still think 50% scaling is too much and would rather it be at somewhere like 70%)

On a side note, the 1v1 change is cool but its weird not having the announcer say something like the "FIGHT" thing from vsav.
 
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Spencer said:
Just as a personal thing?
Isn't this all personal stuff, what we believe is best for the game? Why would we like a change that we think is a bad decision or going in the wrong direction? And it's all opinions, absolutely none of these experiments are objectively better than the other

EDIT:
RemiKz said:
I'm also pretty sure Cerebella's midscreen damage will be more potent than her corner combos with this.
That's how it's been for a while...
 
Icky said:
Isn't this all personal stuff, what we believe is best for the game? Why would we like a change that we think is a bad decision or going in the wrong direction? And it's all opinions, absolutely none of these experiments are objectively better than the other

EDIT:

That's how it's been for a while...

I meant, do you have cause for hating it or is it merely aesthetic. Yes, your hatred for it is obviously an opinion, but some opinions have backing while others are merely a matter of taste
 
Icky said:
That's how it's been for a while...

That seems to be the case with these IPS tests, but I can currently get just about as much if not more in the corner with the official retail build.
 
Spencer said:
I meant, do you have cause for hating it or is it merely aesthetic. Yes, your hatred for it is obviously an opinion, but some opinions have backing while others are merely a matter of taste
I hate them since I can never react in time to know if I got a counter hit or not and change my combo, and with a game like this where it doesn't have "COUNTER!" pop up or have an announcer yell it, then I'm even less likely to ever react properly. I also very much dislike situational combos off of a certain starter.

Also I can't figure out how disliking counter hit combos could even possibly have anything due to aesthetics, care to explain why you would think that was my reason?

EDIT: Also, to quote Mike Z about these initial IPS experiements (or at the least the one that made ips get triggered by enders):

"The goal of this experiment is to see whether this changes combos to be less loop-related. It is not to reduce damage, though it will affect optimized combos because that's the point."

Is that not simply based off of disliking the aesthetics for current combos? Does it make his opinion on not liking current combos any less valid?


RemiKz said:
That seems to be the case with these IPS tests, but I can currently get just about as much if not more in the corner with the official retail build.

And I'm talking about optimal stuff
 
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After playing around with the ips more... I like it less. i cant keep track of all the counter hit stuff and undizzy and characters coming in... Meaning that i cant keep myself from going burst at the worst of times. This takes away from any sense of control and just starts to feel random... The first 2 combos of any series seem to be more or less accurate, but the third combo on seems to give burst in the weirdest places and especially on incoming characters.

i find this to be a major fault. Also, though i can see the counter hits when I'm looking for them, i still miss a decent amount especially when im in a reset series 3rd combo in...and i have no idea where in undizzy i be at, at many points.
 
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After playing a bit, 200 and stage 3 tracking undizzy seems a bit much, but im still playing the old way. Perhaps something like 250 undizzy, same ch bonus but doing the "more undizzy for using same enders" thing?
 
Dime_x said:
So far i like this new ips, it truncates my combos but i like it more.
I'm very surprised that you of all people like the current system, as it gimps throws quite a lot

If you do a full combo into an air reset point (in the current version, so some ~5 strings), there are basically three possible things you can do:
#1 Standard slow reset (eg a crossunder, or waiting for him to fall then a crossup, or reversal bait, or stuff)
#2 Airthrow Bait (jump j.LP and if they tried to tech, they get hit)
#3 Airthrow

#1: This gives you 2-4 chains on hit, as either they deplete a bit of undizzy and thus allow you to connect your starter+one airchain, or you get to do more stuff as you CHd them
#2: This gives you 3 chains on hit, as you CH them out of their tech and kick off 100 Undizzy
#3: This gives you 1 chain on hit, as you'll neither CH them (if you throw them, they were blocking and not doing anything) nor do they have time to deplete Undizzy

Eg after my Parasoul standard string [c.HP > j.MK j.HP xx L.Toss, j.HP > s.MP 4HK xx M.Toss > Jump j.LK j.HP],
If I go for an Airthrow, I can do [Airthrow > c.LK c.HP] and any button in the air triggers burst.

I won't say that I think this is bad for now :~ But you're the guy that always wants super strong throws,
and I just don't see those in the current version. Another change of heart, or something you didn't notice?

Icky said:
I'm also pretty sure Cerebella's midscreen damage will be more potent than her corner combos with this.
That's how it's been for a while...
Not sure what you mean with 'for a while', in multiple of the Beta Experiments? Because it most certainly isn't the case in the Main Build.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure about that yet. We thought for a long time that SQG Parasoul deals more damage midscreen due to Toss interactions that don't work in the corner,
But you know, you find stuff that you previously didn't think of at some point, and corner just has more things possible.

konkrete said:
After playing a bit, 200 and stage 3 tracking undizzy seems a bit much, but im still playing the old way. Perhaps something like 250 undizzy, same ch bonus but doing the "more undizzy for using same enders" thing?
I'd rather just put 250 Undizzy (~one more chain for an Ender, which I feel would be better anyways - also fixes /part of/ the Throw problem noted above) and have CH reduction not go below 0 (so you never get longer combos than standard, should also be more fun for @Icky this way // ).

Reasoning for the latter (Undizzy not <0):
- Most of the time when you Reset, the opponent will have accumulated Undizzy (especially now that it tracks from Stage3 on), so no change there
- Doesn't get you completely screwed from getting CHd in neutral (espec important because that again weakens neutral tools which don't lead to combos - if I time my MP.Tearshot correctly against Filia, she gets CHd out of her j.HP but I can rarely convert that into anything (= I don't have a use for the Undizzy Bonus); if I time it incorrectly, I get CHd by the j.HP which she converts easily from (= I die due to the Undizzy Bonus)
- Forces a Combo max length, and doesn't force you to learn two different combos (You'll at best always sit on 0 Undizzy, so no bonus chains compared to CH, no more effective combos due to CH, no "okay, we do movie'game' with 20 second combos after all" on CH, etc)

I don't think that Ender thing is necessary, there are no actual loops @ 250 Undizzy from Stage3 on anyways.
I guess Parasoul can do 3 Tear shot links in the corner, but that's not efficient in the first place.
 
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RemiKz said:
That seems to be the case with these IPS tests, but I can currently get just about as much if not more in the corner with the official retail build.
But does that really make sense game design wise?

Does it make sense for a character with sick mobility, a zoning tool, and amazing mixups to get near/as much damage as one of the "loaded" characters?
 
iLoli said:
But does that really make sense game design wise?

Does it make sense for a character with sick mobility, a zoning tool, and amazing mixups to get near/as much damage as one of the "loaded" characters?
I have no idea what you just asked. He was talking about Bella damage midscreen being higher than in the corner, .. .. ..what's your question about?

E: WAIT, Did I misunderstand this and he's referring to Bellas midscreen being higher than FILIAS corner?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Not sure what you mean with 'for a while', in multiple of the Beta Experiments? Because it most certainly isn't the case in the Main Build.
It is the case in the main build, check out what Dekillsage and Zidiane have been doing. I don't know about the beta builds.

EDIT: My mistake, Sage just confirmed with me that they are currently doing the roughly same damage.
 
Maybe just increasing the Undizzy a little bit will be the sweet spot. As far as CH combos goes, I do believe once we get more assets, CH message, effects etc. it'll be easier to identify.

@IsaVulpes regarding your CH comment. So, your CH shot will work if your opponent is doing stuff in your zoning range. You get a CH j.hp in a "really bad, I shouldn't have used a projectile at all" range which will result in a full CH combo. At that point you should've done a j.lp/j.hp which would net you, your full CH combo.
 
@Icky yeh they do the same for 1 meter but the midscreen lets you use two. I think

man idk wut im doing
 
Icky said:
Also I can't figure out how disliking counter hit combos could even possibly have anything due to aesthetics, care to explain why you would think that was my reason?

Is that not simply based off of disliking the aesthetics for current combos? Does it make his opinion on not liking current combos any less valid?

So I'd like to start by saying that your response seems to indicate that I'm attacking you. I wasn't. I was legitimately just trying to look at the side of "boo, counterhit combos".

I am pretty loosely using aesthetics here, but it would be something like "boo counterhit combos are stupid". What I meant to say is do you hate them for a gameplay reason, or do you just intrinsically hate them.

And yes and no. Your opinion is no less valid, but as to whether it matters to me is.

For example, I hate Filia's big dumb face for no other reason than she is dumb. That hardly constitutes a reason to make gameplay decisions around it. As opposed to say, I hate Filia's j.hp spam because it is incredibly hard to counter (which is almost certainly a situation that the devs have had to consider even if they don't change it).
 
Spencer said:
And yes and no. Your opinion is no less valid, but as to whether it matters to me is.
I never wrote my initial post on disliking counter hits specific combos for you. And it did feel like you were attacking me because I couldn't think of any good reason as to why you'd be replying to my post otherwise.
 
Mwisk said:
@IsaVulpes regarding your CH comment. So, your CH shot will work if your opponent is doing stuff in your zoning range. You get a CH j.hp in a "really bad, I shouldn't have used a projectile at all" range which will result in a full CH combo. At that point you should've done a j.lp/j.hp which would net you, your full CH combo.
Uuuuuh
Uuuuh
Uh..
 
My thing is, with 200 undizzy why do we need decay?

From what i was lead to believe, undizzy decay was put in specifically to stop "long" combo>reset>long combo.. And that doesnt seem to be in anymore, so there is no reason for decay in my mind. And certainly not for it to carry on, on tag in.

@IsaVulpes
Read the first 2 words of that sentence you quoted.. Wait, I'll make it easy. The words are:

"SO FAR"

Also, that was my second to last post in this thread before this one, and is outdated. Look at my second post.

As far as gimping throws goes, it gimps throw resets certainly. Which i do have a problem with, but is a problem that i have voiced many times to mostly deaf ears. I dont like decay. Ive stated this many times. If by some chance i start to like some form of decay in the future, it will not be in its current form. It will have a meter or something to tell me what the hell is going on.

As far as regular throws being gimped... I see it but i see regular combos gimped as well so i kinda see them as being one in the same. As far as resets go... Yeah ive stated how i feel many many times.

And going on in general, with the damage being so low for now it brings up undizzy decay quite a lot cause there are more resets which i think is a problem that will have to be addressed.


As far as all these ips changes are concerned, i like the philosophy but i personally think that when ips gets changed that certain things should also be looked at... In other words many of these changes dont seem particularly well thought through as far as HOW THEY AFFECT EACH OTHER.

200 undizzy seems fine. 200 undizzy with ch modifiers seems even better, 200 undizzy with varying decay and low damage seems really really bad.
 
Dime_x said:
As far as all these ips changes are concerned, i like the philosophy but i personally think that when ips gets changed that certain things should also be looked at... In other words many of these changes dont seem particularly well thought through as far as HOW THEY AFFECT EACH OTHER.
Remember that all of these are experiments. If you change too much at a time, people get lost and don't know what to direct their (dis-)approval at, and the designer gets lost because he doesn't know which change did what.

If general consensus of people is that this combo length feels good, we let it sit here for a while and continue testing.
If we then notice that Undizzy decay is not actually necessary at this length, we remove it, and continue testing.
If we then notice that the Damage is a bit too low, we increase it across the board, and continue testing.
If we then notice that Bella didn't actually need that damage increase, we lower her stuff again, and continue testing.
Tbc.

This gives much more precise feedback than you'll get after a "Shortened Combos, Increased Damage except for Bella, removed Undizzy Decay, plus some more stuff, oh and there's this Fortune nerf" huge batch.
 
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