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General Gameplay Discussion

Age said:
Well I ran a set with ledd with slide assist (breaks armor) and it did work sometimes, but I still have a lot of problems against brass knuckle.


about 7:30ish when you actually hit BB with a j.HP and still got punched was kind of sad to watch. :(
 
I hate encore edition beta. That is all/sigh.
 
Having said that, I love love love the new frame data display... Shows me my exact advantage advantage on many different types of links which lets me know if they are possible and how hard they should be.

Which is an awesome, awesome thing. Cause it shows that certain advantages aren't static and have to do with your button presses before the link... Such as in painwheels flight cancel combos... This was already known... But now knowing what exactly my advantage is after something like fly df +j.lp is really good especially since it can fluctuate versus certain characters.

So if anyone isn't using the frame calculator yet... I suggest you do, it's awesome and might keep me playing this game.
 
gonna start playing again. what people sayin about the big man?
 
So, besides DP assists are there any reliable grounded AA options for dealing with the non-stop jumping from most players? I have most of my characters options in play, just wondering if there's some general tactic that all characters can use. I'm not a fan of stuff like going for a normal AA and having it blocked, only to have the opponent come down mashing jabs anyway from normal jump height, or risking the AA DP since characters can just chicken block it and punish anyway.

Feeling like there could have been some type of nerf to chicken blocks, like being unable to act until landing (still able to PBGC and Alpha Counter) or something since we're not going the guard break route, but oh well.
 
Other than characters like Ms Fortune or Fillia who have anti air special moves, then aren't many good grounded anti-air options. Not alot of real anti-air normals (there's not a lot of good ground normals at all). That might change as more new characters show up.
That's just my opinion anyway.
 
PS jab is ok against IAD. CB st.lk is also an ok AA. PW st.mk is not as ok but it is a thing.
 
...well, I think most characters have at least one AA normal as per z balancing, he wanted a kind of homogeneity in that every characer would have a way to deal with everything. I don't know all of the moves but some are:


Peacock cr.lk and George at the airshow and held item drop

Painwheel st.mk and hk buer

Bella st.lk, and cr.hp, does excelebella count as a dp assist? battletoads headbutt as well. Cerecopter if done early and destroys crossups

Double... I don't know what her AA normal is or if she even has one... But hk shot serves the purpose pretty well against certain approaches.

Val st.hk and st.mk to a lesser extent... But st.mk does rather well against flying painwheel.

Squigly, don't know.

BB, don't know.

Fortune cr.mk?... I've AA'd people with it on accident once or twice


Filia, st.hk destroys just about every iad attack in the game from what I know, there's also st.hp for huge hitbox cheese.


Parasoul has preemptive st.hp which works rather well when used as an os to start pressure while covering the jumpin angle at the same time... Problem is wiffing it cause its slow and has crap range, or getting it hit by an assist.... Also cr.hp




So.... There are options, your mileage will vary from attack to attack depending on matchup, range and timing. Ie painwheels st.mk is a fantastic normal AA that afaik will beat just about every jump attack in the game. The problem is throwing it out when the opponent is NOT attacking with an assist as cover. Also, it generally leads to no damage... But meh on that. If you look at painwheels st.mk hit box... It's completely stupid... In a good way. But because it leads to no damage and gets taken out by assists... It's kinda useless on point.
 
Yeah they do exist its just that most of them aren't that impressive. Especially if you compare it to some characters in other airdash games.

As much as I hate MVC3, I do like how good some of the normals are and how projectile heavy some characters were in it. I didn't feel this way when SG first came out, but now I really wish there was more projectile action in this game.
 
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@asteriskblue

Yeah me to.

But not like double or parasoul projectile pressure which, to me, is boring, but more like peacock projectile pressure... God she's great.

That's why I wanted dahlia so bad... Another projectile character to toss in the mix.
 
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Yeah, Bella has some good AA normals on her, Peacock's s.lk is really preemptive vs IAD or you get hit. PW s.mp and s.mk should be better, especially when armored but they don't work too well either; trying to absorb the jump-in with armour then release it isn't too consistent. The specials would be better, except that the opponent has the option to block it and then you get punished. Overall, the grounded AA options aren't the best when compared to other games, imo.

Honestly, I'm disappointed that Squiggly is as rush-down focused as she is. With only two characters who you can really call zoning focused, we really could have used another.
 
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Dime_x said:
Painwheel st.mk and hk buer

Also add s.hk. It is limited, but it has amazing reach. Slow as fuck though.

All of her options are a bit niche though in my opinion.

hk buer is amazing for stupid Squigly's that throw out j.hp predictably, at the start of certain matches, or vs Parasoul. Can't confirm off of it though which is a huge bummer. I think if it were confirmable, it would be the go-to AA for PW.

That said, I like s.mp the best out of all of her options. It can be tough to use on reaction, and I am usually so surprised to land it that I forget to j.mp to confirm... but that is largely a skill issue, no doubt. It can also be charged just to be eaten through by the multitude of multihit air options... I kid... kind of.

@View619

I would say only one true zoner. Parasoul has the kit to zone, but I see her used as aggressive more often than not... it's that goddamn priority.
 
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who can tell me startup/recovery frames of a snapback?
 
I think they're a little different for every character. Bella is 15 frame startup. Recovery looks like maybe 66 frames?
 
View619 said:
So, besides DP assists are there any reliable grounded AA options for dealing with the non-stop jumping from most players?

If they're throwing out moves, you could try to stick a normal out or air normal. If they're blocking, you can try hitting them out of jump startup.

Otherwise, I'd try airthrow even though that's not grounded, it's a universal anti-chicken block tactic.
 
worldjem said:
If they're throwing out moves, you could try to stick a normal out or air normal. If they're blocking, you can try hitting them out of jump startup.

Otherwise, I'd try airthrow even though that's not grounded, it's a universal anti-chicken block tactic.

Moves with receded hurtboxes are good too. Double's cr.HP is an amazing normal.
 
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Dont know where else to put this... It doesnt seem right in the filia thread.
A little piece of anti filia tech (which i feel we are all in sore need of) that has been saving my ass very consistently is that her cr.mk is extreme pbgc bait... Like everytime i block that move i pbgc it.

This is good because it finally gives us a way to punish filia on block... Cause none of the stuff that good filia players use is punishable on block, yet is so safe that she generally gets even more pressure even on block. Filia can still be played as a high/throw character... But that kills much of her damage and forces resets and blown meter.

So yeah, practice pbgcing through her cr.mk, its awesome and with hitstop she doesnt have the greatest defense against pbgcing that move.

-edit, i of course mean for y'all to practice it if you havent already. Not trying to act like i found out about it first, just saying that it is very viable to consistently punish via pbgc for those that didnt already know.
 
Can't she just cancel it to stuff?
 
Age said:
Can't she just cancel it to stuff?


I havent tested it but, yes and no, in theory:

Hitstop supers mean that once your super is out she CANT cancel into anything if your super hits in less than 8 frames (DD, deathcrawl, ferserker barrage etc etc etc) however she can cancel her cr.mk early into well, any of her specials or supers. But if you were blocking... That wont do much good, and if its a special or st.hk or whatever... Well shes still fucked cause those arent invincible.


So yeah in certain cases rarely she'll be able to protect herself. I think the most applicable one is her st.hk against deathcrawl... Deathcrawl hits low profile (or at least it did) and filias st.hk will make it wiff (it did in past versions, dont know if it still does)

So naw in most instances its a near guaranteed punish. The primary way for her to beat it would be to cancel the cr.mk early on in its animation so theres less hitstop to pbgc with... But then shes not getting the proper vacuum effect on her cr.mk nor is she getting the multiple hits with which to easily confirm.

ive been using it against ledd with great results.
 
So, also, specials get more meter when done while the opponent character is in hitstun.

Dont believe me? Pick bella and do an uncombod st.hp and cerecopter. Look at the cerecopter meter gain. That is normal.

Now do st.hp xx cerecopter as a combo. See the meter go up twice for cerecopter? Thats the meter exploit im talking about. And the funny thing is that it doesnt have to combo. All that has to happen is that a special is started while the opponent character is in hitstun. Case in point:


Painwheel:

Do mp stinger from max screen distance, then just as the stinger hits, do another stinger (any version even lp from full screen) you'll notice that the second stinger makes nearly double the amount of meter that the first stinger made. You will also notice that the meter goes up twice very noticeably.

Other ways to check this are to do a launcher and cancel it into a special move that wiffs... Etc etc etc.


I dont know if this is a bug or intended. But it has practical applications:


To maximize meter gain, obviously one would want to throw in as many specials as possible. One way to do this is to use 2 hit chains instead of 3. The 2 hit chains theoretically will allow for less undizzy to accumulate over the course of the combo and that allows for more specials.


The other practical application is, if going for meter gain, is to use special move assists in combos as much as possible.

NOT AS THE STARTER, obviously, since the opponent character wont be in hitstun before the starter hits, then you wont get that hitstun meter bonus that applies to specials.




If this meter gain application is common knowledge, then i apologize for not knowing. But if it isnt... Well then you combo masters have something else to throw your time into if you want.
 
Dime_x said:
Dont know where else to put this... It doesnt seem right in the filia thread.
A little piece of anti filia tech (which i feel we are all in sore need of) that has been saving my ass very consistently is that her cr.mk is extreme pbgc bait... Like everytime i block that move i pbgc it.

This is good because it finally gives us a way to punish filia on block... Cause none of the stuff that good filia players use is punishable on block, yet is so safe that she generally gets even more pressure even on block. Filia can still be played as a high/throw character... But that kills much of her damage and forces resets and blown meter.

So yeah, practice pbgcing through her cr.mk, its awesome and with hitstop she doesnt have the greatest defense against pbgcing that move.

-edit, i of course mean for y'all to practice it if you havent already. Not trying to act like i found out about it first, just saying that it is very viable to consistently punish via pbgc for those that didnt already know.
This is true, but it is also prime pushblock BAIT material FOR Fillia, just like most multi hit normals in the game.
 
Tomo009 said:
This is true, but it is also prime pushblock BAIT material FOR Fillia, just like most multi hit normals in the game.


By canceling into hairball as a frame trap? Yeah that might work. Dont know if id call a frame trap into an unsafe move to be prime bait, but yeah point taken. Though ill still stand by pbgcing her cr.mk if you can read the need for a hitconfirm.

But yeah, thats why i didnt mention it for other characters. Ie painwheel could be done with this against her j.mp or her j.hk... But she can easily cancel either move into safe stuff... So it becomes much more murky to pbgc her (narrower read) but yeah agreed in general about what you say (all pushblocks can be baited and destroyed) still think its a great bit of tech against filia.
 
Dime_x said:
By canceling into hairball as a frame trap? Yeah that might work. Dont know if id call a frame trap into an unsafe move to be prime bait, but yeah point taken. Though ill still stand by pbgcing her cr.mk if you can read the need for a hitconfirm.

But yeah, thats why i didnt mention it for other characters. Ie painwheel could be done with this against her j.mp or her j.hk... But she can easily cancel either move into safe stuff... So it becomes much more murky to pbgc her (narrower read) but yeah agreed in general about what you say (all pushblocks can be baited and destroyed) still think its a great bit of tech against filia.

or anything, really, you can cancel any hit into 236K and then use a light again to catch them. Same way Painwheel/Squiggly/Parasoul can bait pushblock. You don't need to use hairball specifically, in fact I would advise against that.

Really just depends who gets the correct read.
 
Tomo009 said:
or anything, really, you can cancel any hit into 236K and then use a light again to catch them. Same way Painwheel/Squiggly/Parasoul can bait pushblock. You don't need to use hairball specifically, in fact I would advise against that.

Really just depends who gets the correct read.
Lol, yes the pushblock can be baited. So dont get baited. However, if the pushblock is successful, then the pbgc as long as you pbgc correctly, is about as guaranteed as they come. So dont know what you are trying to tell me?



Pushblock is baitable? Yes we all know that. Dont get baited. Also, you should take note that i said pbgc always works. If you get your pushblock baited, then you didnt pushblock, hence it wont work... But if you get off the pushblock... You are golden. The only thing that will really f you over realistically is if fili is hitting an assist when you do this and she cancels the cr.mk into st.hp and gets to jump cancel because of that and you wiff your super. Other than that even if filia cancels into.. Anything that actually hits, your pbgc will still go through. Ive pushblocked her cr.mk and had her cancel into st.hp or hairball and my pbgc still cleaned her out cause i was still in blockstun.

-edit and as far as canceling into fake... I doubt that is going to work. It will just speed up the time i go for my super since you cut hitstop short.

Remember that you dont have blockstun helping out your fake to be safe. I'm already in pushblock so i have no blockstun i have the mandatory pushblock waiting time plus hitpause.

If you cancel into fake you just shorten the hitpause.

If you fake at the moment that i try to pushblock.... Well if im in blockstun nothing will happen. If im in hitpause i will still pushblock, and if im no longer in blockstun i will get out either a cr.lp, or cr.mp and probably end up hitting your fake since the fake has active frames and isnt instant recovery.


I should test the fake stuff out.. But i dont see it being that important. My mind could change. But bottom line is this is good tech. Dont use it if you dont want to. I will continue to use it and continue to blow up filia cr.mk. In all the matches ive played i dont think ive gotten blown up/baited once and yet all of my pbgcs (that i didnt mess up the execution on) got through and hit her... FREE. And tbqh i havent messed up on pbgcs that much.


This ISNT TOOTING MY OWN HORN. It really is just that easy. Shit doesnt take mad execution by any means and is doable pretty much on reaction. Basically i see cr.mk being blocked, i pushblock it on reaction (it lasts forever) then after that it dont matter what the opponent does... My pbgc deathcrawl (easy as shit)/pillar (hard) /lk bomber (hard) /swag wagon (easy) is more or less guaranteed.


I dont think fake will work very well cause you have to go through the entire fakes animation, get the pushblock timing right in order to bait it, then after the fake recovers, add in the startup of the next move that you do... Fake into perhaps Fenrir or gregor... Now we're talking.. But those are unsafe and unsafe frametraps are folly... (Not to mention how hard they would be to get off, in the first place)
 
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Couldn't think of a better place to discuss this so I guess I'll put it here.

Am I the only one that thinks the scaling change to Filia's Fenrir is too heavy-handed? I understand reducing it because 1.5k damage after max scaling is a bit much, but dropping it to what it is now seems a bit much.

Beta Fenrir after max scaling: 854
Current Fenrir after max scaling: 1522

For comparison's sake
Gregor after max scaling: ~780


Kind of sucks that it only does 70 more than Gregor would, even if it keeps them cornered. I understand that Filia is a good character with a lot of tools that shouldn't have high damage, but this seems just a tad bit too low for the meter you are putting up. Having it do 1k after max scaling seems like a fair compromise. Filia isn't even hitting 7k midscreen without a jump-in or assist for 1 meter in the beta. This is more or less the damage Filia was doing in SG1.0 without the ringlet loops.
 
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Seems slightly heavy handed... Perhaps. But at least it puts the pixie fast character on par with a heavy hitter instead of hitting... Harder than the heavy hitter:

With pw getting deathcrawl nerfed to around 1100 damage at max scaling... Filias Fenrir doesnt make sense adding on 1500.


950 seems about right to her Fenrir to me. Next up should be ferserker and possibly dd... Shit does waaaaay way to much damage right now... But i guess thats a discussion for game design? Idk, but yeah i was seriously irked by fenrirs damage when dc got nerfed the way it did so im all for this.

Also, even painwheel struggles to get 7k midscreen from universal stuff... She tops out at like 7.5k for hard non universal stuff iirc and my current bnb does around 6.8-7k midscreen with a super ender.


So filias numbers not looking to bad to me at all.
 
I don't even use Painwheel and I can do something like 7.5k midscreen even with the deathcrawl nerf, which I'm pretty sure is mostly universal.
 
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Can you do more?

And what's the combo?

I'm getting 7.2 universal midscreen.

-edit 7483
 
iirc it's something like

c.LK, c.MK, HP, fly,
j.LK,
c.MK, HP, 236LP, MP,
j.MP, j.HP, fly, j.MK, j.HP, j.HK,
c.LP, c.LK, c.MP, HP, LK Buer, Death Crawl

That might not be the exact combo but it's something along those lines.
 
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Sounds about right... Is been awhile and i was off about 500. Damage... Either way, filia looking fine with 6.5k universal damage. This is the character with updo assist and gregor dhc and a universal mash to get out of attacking resets that doesnt matter for ground or air.

But like i said... 850 seems slightly heavy handed. 950 is better.
 
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I don't know about heavy handed. It doesn't sound like it will change much of anything. People might finish characters off by dhcing into gregor instead since you can set up an updo for the last bit of damage or go for a bait/mixup off it.
 
RemiKz said:
Current Fenrir after max scaling: 1522
Since when? It used to be 1476

E: Also I give my thumbs up to any change that brings the super reset char to being actually that, rather than also a super heavy hitter.
Fenrir will always have a purpose as AA, so even if damage is low it's good.

For the record: Parasouls Lv1s deal ~400 damage at max scaling. Squigly's 400-600. I don't see why 850 would be "Kinda low for the meter you're putting up".
 
significant random nerf out of nowhere between major revisions is hard on morale but whatever
 
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