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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Dreamepitaph said:
the point midiman was trying to make is that the character's TOOLS should be taken into consideration.


Kinda goes without saying, doesn't It?

But also, this being a "balanced" game, and every character is supposed to be around the same damage give or take some... Damage does become a point of reference. Like I think BB and bella tbqh do a bit to much damage for their toolsets.
 
iLoli said:
Worldjem post mine.

I'll post any new ones weekly when I go to update the results. I already posted this week's update, so anything new from that will get posted next week. I update on weekends.

Also, as Midiman said, 7,750 is half health now. It used to be 7,150. Most combos that start from a light go to max undizzy for 1 meter is about 7k. This means you generally need to kill them in 3 full combos, but they get a better chance to get out of pressure than if you were doing several resets in a row. Doing solid resets that are hard to block can rack up damage faster than a full combo while also keeping pressure, preventing them from escaping easily, and limiting their meter gain.
 
it kinda goes without saying but all midiman and the others are seeing is a huge dickwagging contest. a good portion of you never even intensively USE squigly. i heavily advise thinking about the character than damage.
 
Dime_x said:
But also, this being a "balanced" game, and every character is supposed to be around the same damage give or take some....
They are? Since... When?

A balanced game generally means (or at least, means to me) everyone has a fair shot of winning and has no shortage of tools to deal with a situation, not that their damage output is normalized and everyone does the same deal of damage?

*shrug*
 
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Dime_x said:
Kinda goes without saying, doesn't It?

But also, this being a "balanced" game, and every character is supposed to be around the same damage give or take some... Damage does become a point of reference. Like I think BB and bella tbqh do a bit to much damage for their toolsets.
Why?

Some characters have better tools at neutral, some have better tools to stay in, some have better damage.
 
Everyone talking numbers when it's still 2 combos to kill 1.0 ratio. If a character needs 3 combos, then you have a low damage argument but it can be offset by their tools; powerful reset options, high chip damage where that last bit of life you might have lost from blocking junk flying. IMO damage is a red herring, the conversation should be who oppresses who, who can stop the most characters from doing what they want to do with their tools.

That's how some of us build our teams right? What combo of characters can I use that would oppress my opponent or get in the way of them from doing what they want to do?
 
Midiman said:
They are? Since... When?

A balanced game generally means (or at least, means to me) everyone has a fair shot of winning and has no shortage of tools to deal with a situation, not that their damage output is normalized and everyone does the same deal of damage?

*shrug*


I worded it wrong. Every character is balanced around a set amount of damage, some have more according to their toolsets, some have less.

The median point in my eyes seems to be around 7-7.5k

Higher that that for a character suggests to me that the character suffers at neutral a bit, or "somewhere" and therefor have a slight damage buff to off set this. Some have lower than average damage and this suggests that those characters have better than average neutral, or "something"


It isn't black and white. It doesn't necessarily mean better or worse neutral it could simply be an oversight in some cases and in others it could be as insignificant as bad reversals..
Or something else.
 
This damage talk is pointless in the first place

Much more important than "I deal X damage off cLK in a full combo ending with super" would be things like
- Meterless damage (as one isn't going to spend a meter after every hit)
- Frontload damage (allowing you to deal high damage with early resets / at high Ud levels)
- Single vs Multihit damage (7.5k with all single hits is worth 1600% more than 7.7k with all multihits which give the opponent 2 bars in the process)
- Conversions (whether you can land serious damage out of your good neutral tools, whether Throw followups need a meter, ..)
- Reliability of high damage starters (Filia is far more likely to land IAD jHP-jHK than Parasoul is gonna hit with a jHP jumpin)

Looking at everything from a 2v2 life/damage ratio also strikes me as sorta weird, due to most matches being one of 3v3/2v3/3v2 -
which greatly changes a lot of the interplay (whether combo - reset - combo super DHC can kill or not, what half life damage is, etc)

Dime_x said:
as insignificant as bad reversals..
How is that insignificant
 
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IsaVulpes said:
How is that insignificant

Maybe it isn't... MYSTERIES!!!


Going on though, as the great Z would love to say:

"Storm and magneto had no reversals in mvc2 and were the best characters in the game" (or some such)

I play a character with a bad reversal and ttytt, I don't miss good reversals at all. Then again I usually don't play characters with good reversals in most fighting games. But I used to play parasoul and and now I play BB.

I feel like I need reversals with para and BB more than I do with pw.

So I mean, it CAN be insignificant, or it might be very significant. It depends on the character and game how significant it is and in SG I don't find that characters that have bad reversals suffer for it that much when on the right spot on a team and when they have a gameplay tailored to accept that they don't have great reversals.
 
Current list with 41 votes.
  1. Peacock
  2. Eliza
  3. Cerebella
  4. Filia
  5. Fukua
  6. Parasoul
  7. Valentine
  8. Ms. Fortune
  9. Beowulf
  10. Painwheel
  11. Big Band
  12. Robo-Fortune
  13. Double +1
  14. Squigly -1

Peacock 1
Eliza 2
Cerebella 3
Painwheel 4
Valentine 5
Fukua 6
Ms. Fortune 7
Parasoul 8
Squigly 9
Double 10
Big Band 11
Filia 12
Beowulf N/A
Robo-Fortune N/A

Skullgirls, while of course being a reset heavy game, while of course a damage heavy game, is first and foremost a game of neutral. I feel as if the characters listed 1-5 have the best ways to engage/disengage their opposition in neutral, to the exception of Cerebella, who just kind of brute forces her way through alot of options with her hitboxes and armor. Either by having the best of their options(Peacock), a fantastic combination of almost every neutral tool(Eliza), or having options that other characters simply do not have(Val and Painwheel) these characters can harass in neutral like no other. Characters 6-10 I had a much harder time thinking about their placement, while being all fantastic characters, some of these characters have specific defects, like taking 150% damage, or not having a double jump, or being baby's first fuzzy training dummy, or having to charge for your better moves. The top part of mid tier is there for their ability to gain meter while the lower part kind of grasps for air in that department. Filia is ringing out last on this tier list for the reason I stated above, neutral. While she has gained some more abilities at neutral with the Ringlet Spike changes, I do feel that the rest of the cast still does better at neutral than she does, and with more and more defensive options piling up and Filia losing some of her offensive options, it's in my humble opinion that she is currently the worst in the game.

DISCLAIMER: I do not a PC good enough to reliably run the beta so I may not be as familiar with the changes as other players. My opinion is useless.

Peacock 1
Valentine 2
Beowulf 3
Painwheel 4
Big Band 5
Eliza 6
Filia 7
Cerebella 8
Ms. Fortune 9
Fukua 10
Double 11
Squigly 12
Parasoul 13
Robo-Fortune N/A

1. Peacock

Incredibly dangerous neutral with bombs and Level 2 M Item drop. Zoning patterns result in going in, getting a left-right or post-block mixup of some kind, call assist to lock down a bit more and back off to zone more. Least risky offensive gameplan of any character in the game, with extremely high reward anyway. Level 2 Item drop damage should probably be scaled to 70% considering how safe and easy it is to land.

2. Valentine

She is a fair character. This is in the sense, that with enough skill, thought, matchup experience and adaptation she can make any matchup in the game even or advantaged for herself, and combined with optimal assists results in a monster that doesn't dominate neutral in the way Peacock does with safe high reward pressure, but with movement, spacing and the ability to dictate the pace of the match.

Will not be seen as bad by bad players in about 5 years time when these players find out what skill is.

3. Beowulf

Incredibly easy and straightforward neutral with j.HP and beast cannon movement, has ways to bypass zoners (Bionic Arm, chairless c.HK) to mitigate bad matchups against them. Fastest high in the game, jump-in j.MP dash j.MP can't be pushblocked. Hard knockdowns off of everything if he wants. Honestly, the biggest thing keeping him here is j.HP and beast cannon. Those make neutral completely easymode for him,

4. Painwheel

Ridiculous character, prevented from becoming top 3 due to bad matchups against zoners. Peacock & Fukua make her cry at neutral, unless she has H Brass assist.

However, if you're not against zoners, Painwheel becomes a character much like Valentine in the neutral with far tighter/closer spacing, but with far more extreme pressure and sustained mixup potential than Valentine. She is the only character in the game that can get a guaranteed safejump on all of the cast incredibly easy (s.HP fly j.6MK) which means GUARANTEED pressure.

Her suite of air normals all complement each other when used in a very sf footsie-ish manner, to cover the holes that each one leaves and fake the threats of them in neutral.

Her armour allows her to bypass lots of shit in situations that no other character can bypass safely, like her charged s.LP/c.LP effectively becomigng a 3f normal due to the armour startup. j.HP armour lets her react to being hit on the armour with air thresher.

Unfly makes her pressure amongst the safest in the game, second only to Peacock, due to the ability to avoid PBGC reversals and DP assists (almost) at will.

5. Big Band

Most important assist character in the game. L Extend is a ridiculous assist and is every single top tier MVC2 assist COMBINED. It hits twice so it contributes to breaking armour, it has the highest vertical reach in the game to catch super jumpers, it has the longest horizontal range of any DP assist making it extremely useful for post-pushblock frametraps, pressure sequences, and fucking up long normals at neutral. Oh, and it's incredibly easy for every single character in the game to convert off of. MIke Z is on crack if he thinks this isn't -that- good.

HOWEVER it is a good thing that this assist IS -that- good, since it means that every character now has a universal option to deal with lots of the BS the game can throw at them, and mitigate the effects of huge hitboxes (like beowulf j.HP) by calling L Extend to snap them up. It would be nice if the other DP assists (except for chair toss) were buffed in some way to give them a reason to be chosen other than you just like the character on point better.

H Brass fucks up anyone who wants to zone, great for counterpicking.

On point, he has some HORRIBLE matchups (rofort, parasoul, cerebella), which prevent him from being top tier but other matchups are mostly okay.

Will be ridiculous in 10 years time when every Big Band player knows how to parry everything.

13. Parasoul

Apart from just using her EXCELLENT normals smartly, and optimising shot/tear zoning(which take a lot of prep time) I have no idea what she's supposed to do in order to beat high tier characters consistently.

Her post-block game is terrible, with the worst frame advantage in the game due to high recovery on every normal. This makes her incredibly easy to not only PBGC but just waiting for her advantage to run out and putting a super in her ground string. I have no idea what she's supposed to do against Cerebella on pressure. PBAG into PPGC 360 punishes about everything on block, and parasoul can't afford to do stagger strings since 360 will punish every single stagger string on block. She can use shots, but using a shot is even more startup and recovery and just asking to be PBGC'd.

In order to play parasoul well, you must NOT do on-block pressure, and instead play neutral extremely well. since her risk for catching an opponent blocking at neutral is significantly higher than other characters.

Her total lack of extra air movement options are NOT made up for with the Float or with her extremely good ground dashes. She lacks an entire vector for avoiding things at neutral by lacking a doublejump, and has an incredibly hard time capitalising on post-jump spacing further than her j.HP range due to her inability to change her trajectory mid-air quickly.

Peacock 1
Cerebella 2
Ms. Fortune 3
Valentine 4
Squigly 5
Painwheel 6
Filia 7
Parasoul 8
Beowulf 9
Fukua 10
Eliza 11
Big Band 12
Double 13
Robo-Fortune N/A

No matter how I cut it double just did not seem to compare to the others. By no means is anyone bad but in terms of overall character strength bella is far above the rest imo. She can play any spot on the map very well and hurts doing it. The strength of ms fortune's mix up is phenomenal. Why more people don't use it is beyond me. She can play all spots pretty well and can pressure with the best of them.
 
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I really like person 7's reasoning. Not so much their Filia placement, though. While neutral is very important, it's also important to look at how easily a character can get their game started, and how hard it is to stop their momentum. While Filia may have a bit of trouble with the former at times, she's really good with the latter.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I really like person 7's reasoning. Not so much their Filia placement, though. While neutral is very important, it's also important to look at how easily a character can get their game started, and how hard it is to stop their momentum. While Filia may have a bit of trouble with the former at times, she's really good with the latter.
When I think of neutral, the last person I can think of is Filia, and that's why I put her last. If Double has 2 meters, and Lueger Shot can give her those two meters while letting also controlling space, she can catheads, neutralizing the opponent's neutral.

Also with j.hk no longer being an overhead, she lost a very strong, high damage combo starter and a lot of her left right shenanigans.

Granted, the whole having a toaster for a laptop thing doesn't help me.
 
iLoli said:
When I think of neutral, the last person I can think of is Filia, and that's why I put her last.
Also with j.hk no longer being an overhead, she lost a very strong, high damage combo starter and a lot of her left right shenanigans.

Granted, the whole having a toaster for a laptop thing doesn't help me.

Filia can control lots of space with her air normals and has great ground normals. she has great anti air buttons and great mobility. she still has left right mix ups with j.hk even though its not an over head you still have to change your blocking direction. j.hk even gives you ambiguous left right resets in the air. Point blank instant air dash j.lk is a 7 frame overhead. This character is amazing i tell ya.
 
I don't think her air to air is that good. Para, Squigly, Eliza, Bella, and Painwheel all feel significantly better. Big Band, Double, and Fortune feel marginally better. I'm not sure on Val, Robo, or Beo yet. She mostly has good air mobility, but has trouble winning straight air to air engagements.
 
Filia j.HP is solid air-to-air, but you can't convert that into damage mid-screen without an assist.
 
Filia jhp can be airdash canceled into another jhp for pressure on block, or damage on hit and depending on character and distance she can cancel into airball or Gregor as a confirm.

Her jhk didn't lose her a valuable crossup tool, it still crosses up.
 
"L Extend is a ridiculous assist and is every single top tier MVC2 assist COMBINED."
Just some factual corrections here because hyperbole in objective analysis is pretty much the worst thing you can do:
- All assists in MvC2 had no vulnerable frames before startup. All assists in SG have 3f of vulnerable time before startup. It was impossible to stuff Psylocke before she came out...you could call her or Cyke to beat beam supers in the middle!
- Beat Extend has a further 1f of vulnerable startup past that.
- Beat Extend is in no way similar to Sentinel drones or Doom rocks, and doesn't reach as high as Captain Corridor.
- Knockdown hits in MvC2 beat armor immediately, so Psylocke also beat armor immediately. Beat Extend does not.
- Psylocke gave the same knockdown on trade, Beat Extend does not.
- Psylocke gave you an unrollable OTG even if you had already used up your OTG in that combo. Beat Extend does not.
- Psylocke and CapCom cover more of the horizontal screen area than Beat Extend does, even accounting for widescreen vs 4:3.
- When you were forced to block Psylocke in a normal jump or incoming, it set you up for a guard break. Since she MUST be blocked, this was a very common use for her. SG doesn't have guard breaks.

"Beat Extend is probably one of the top assists in SG because it has large range, is easy to combo after, and pulls them in from far away" is a fair statement, but that comparison is so off it's funny. You COULD NOT BAIT OR STUFF Psylocke, period. You'll notice that here, the only answer for Psylocke is not being there.
 
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This is a large thread. I have not read any of it.

Is Painwheel still B tier (lol)? Can I talk about how awesome Cilia Slide assist is for Painwheel? Covering reversal windows with Cilia Slide + Armor have been a favourite pastime of mine. I live a stress free life not worrying about Raw Tag, Up+Back, Down+Back, Armor, Buttons, Reversals, DP xx Super...

Also, do people talk about parry OSs with Big Band? Does anyone actually do that in setups yet? Cover reversal and PBGC windows with Parry before continuing pressure? Those seem like they're really good.

Does anyone want to talk about feelings?
 
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akindhobo said:
Filia can control lots of space with her air normals and has great ground normals. she has great anti air buttons and great mobility. she still has left right mix ups with j.hk even though its not an over head you still have to change your blocking direction. j.hk even gives you ambiguous left right resets in the air. Point blank instant air dash j.lk is a 7 frame overhead. This character is amazing i tell ya.
Filia almost never wins because she out buttoned you, or because she used this amazing thing at neutral which got her the hit, when she wins, it's usually because the opponent feel asleep at the stick and forgot when to pushblock cr.forward into assist call, or threw a bad fireball, or watched Filia call an assist without challenging it.
 
iLoli said:
Filia almost never wins because she out buttoned you, or because she used this amazing thing at neutral which got her the hit, when she wins, it's usually because the opponent feel asleep at the stick and forgot when to pushblock cr.forward into assist call, or threw a bad fireball, or watched Filia call an assist without challenging it.


So sonic fox is beating people because they are asleep?


Filias a damn good character, has suspect neutral if you don't use all her tools, but still is super oppressive once in, the most oppressive character once in, in the game imho.
 
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Dime_x said:
So sonic fox is beating people because they are asleep?


Filias a damn good character, has suspect neutral if you don't use all her tools, but still is super oppressive once in, the most oppressive character once in, in the game imho.
He beats people, myself included because we dealt with LNL incorrectly and fell asleep afterwards, he also just makes sure to kill someone when he CAN kill someone, and you know, he's just good at video games?

The most oppressive once she gets in? I think that title goes to Painwheel or Squigly now.
 
This character has good neutral != this character has good neutral with lock and load.
 
I think if you aren't solo and aren't using an assist that increases your neutral, whatever character you are using, you are doing it wrong, but that's just me.

If filia goes from having shit neutral with x assists, but great neutral with y assist then filia is on teams as always having y assist.

You don't rank strider without doom, dr.strange without someone that can use bolts effectively and setup stranges otg tag combos etc etc
 
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From my understanding that's the only way to effectively rank any character without starting to rank specific shells. Then you move into filia + H brass != filia + H theonite.
 
iLoli said:
He beats people, myself included because we dealt with LNL incorrectly and fell asleep afterwards, he also just makes sure to kill someone when he CAN kill someone, and you know, he's just good at video games?

The most oppressive once she gets in? I think that title goes to Painwheel or Squigly now.

No. Sonic beats people because he was the only Filia who understood the concept of whiff punishing and making smart reads. We didn't deal with LNL incorrectly, if he called it and did a move you could not move, you had to block and take the next mix up. That's not the case anymore, but to say we fell asleep when you couldn't react to the next mix up after blocking is incorrect.

Squigly is not oppressive
 
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dekillsage said:
No. Sonic beats people because he was the only Filia who understood the concept of whiff punishing and making smart reads. We didn't deal with LNL incorrectly, if he called it and did a move you could not move, you had to block and take the next mix up. That's not the case anymore, but to say we fell asleep when you couldn't react to the next mix up after blocking is incorrect.

Squigly is not oppressive
Is there anything Filia has now that is not reactable?

Because if there is a reactable mixup that you didn't block, you fell asleep.

Want to clarify on your opinions on why Squigs isn't oppressive?

Also if there is a LNL in your face and the opponent isn't waiting until your pushblock animation is over, what stops the person who is blocking from pbgc'ing something?
 
Dime_x said:
I think if you aren't solo and aren't using an assist that increases your neutral, whatever character you are using, you are doing it wrong, but that's just me.

If filia goes from having shit neutral with x assists, but great neutral with y assist then filia is on teams as always having y assist.

You don't rank strider without doom, dr.strange without someone that can use bolts effectively and setup stranges otg tag combos etc etc
Could be wrong, but I thought the whole point of this poll was to rate characters on THEIR merits, not the merits of the assist, if the assist is good, credit should go to the character with the assist.
 
iLoli said:
Is there anything Filia has now that is not reactable?

Because if there is a reactable mixup that you didn't block, you fell asleep.

Want to clarify on your opinions on why Squigs isn't oppressive?

Also if there is a LNL in your face and the opponent isn't waiting until your pushblock animation is over, what stops the person who is blocking from pbgc'ing something?

Have you ever played Guilty Gear? People get hit by Reactable overheads all the time...
 
Shit, we can't react to Fukua's armored command throw.
 
Hey man 18 frames is fast for some of us :c
 
iLoli said:
Could be wrong, but I thought the whole point of this poll was to rate characters on THEIR merits, not the merits of the assist, if the assist is good, credit should go to the character with the assist.
Rank them how you want to rank them I guess, and we will argue how we want to argue them I guess. I think it's folly to rank characters in an "overall" manner. Because overall doesn't necessarily refer to their power in their best position/team

So you are ranking something that doesn't matter.

As far as squigly not being oppressive, sage just kinda destroyed the best squigly in the states, 3-0 in the grand finals at NWM.

To me... And I could be wrong here, oppressive means hard to get off of you once their offense gets started, especially on block.

You can pushblock filia and she can move back in almost near before you recover from your pushblock and still mix you up.


Both painwheel and squigly don't have that level of oppression on block afaik. Maybe squigly has it with assist calls into sing into sbo... Maybe, but I haven't seen it.

Filia has tools that like all the cast aren't easy to reactively do anything about. Her cr.lk isn't react blockable, her iAd j.lk isn't react blockable for most people, her throw isn't react breakable. Her iad jhk isn't react blockable by most people.


Her overheads are faster than painwheels or parasouls. And also, as has been stated before, just because someone "can" react to something doesn't mean they will. Focus and concentration have a lot to do with how fast one can react and focus and concentration go up and down during the course of a game. I can't block anything that filia does, on reaction, most of the time, and most people still have problems blocking painwheels slow overheads consistently at all times.
 
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Just got here. Looked for a little bit.

Why do people think Squigly is bad? Let alone worse than Double. Her support value is incredible, especially second on a 3's team.

Dime_x said:
As far as squigly not being oppressive, sage just kinda destroyed the best Squigly in the states, 3-0 in the grand finals at NWM.
Yaya is from Canada, not the states. Fuzzy and Guitalex are (results wise) the best Squigly mains in the USA.

Both painwheel and squigly don't have that level of oppression on block afaik. Maybe squigly has it with assist calls into sing into sbo... Maybe, but I haven't seen it.
This I agree with. Pushblocking is what beats a lot of Squigly's pressure, Opera doesn't really help all that much honestly. I would put Squigly's pressure as "alright"
 
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Squigly isn't even bad. Hell some of the squigly players don't use sing 1 for positioning. its helpful.

I do not see why she is bad other than the pure fact that all of your combos are multihits and will give the opponent more meter while you gain minimal stuff. w.e
 
I look at how good a character is based on both how they are with and without assists, personally. Shouldn't have to be solely one way or the other. Filia with an assist to get her in is really good, but even if she doesn't have access to an assist, she doesn't completely crumble on her own. Meanwhile someone like Big Band, while also very scary with assists, can be kited very easily by certain characters without an assist to control space.

Squigly is good, but I don't think she really stands out above Fortune/Val/Peacock/Bella... basically everyone above her aside from Double, Big Band, and potentially Beowulf. I really wish some more people would experiment with Sing assist and see how good of a supporter that makes her.
 
Squiglys biggest problems as I see them:

Needs charge to be at her best.
Defense is suspect post block/post hit
Loses charges for using her moves
Doesn't have a great ability to approach
Can be considered slow in certain aspects of her movement


But she makes up for those things in a variety of ways.

To me, she's just a hard character to use, lots of things to keep track of when compared to the rest of the cast, and no one thing she can rely on to give her time to think and formulate a gameplan. Other than MAYBE running away while charging a stance.

@Dolfinh
Don't get semantical with me :) North America then. Yaya is the best squiglyplayer in that region. Unless guitalex is better, and does he even play consistently anymore?
 
I know nothing about the guy. If I'm wrong about yaya and fuzzy is better, I apologize. No disrespect intended


(Goes to find some fuzzy vids... Somewhere)
 
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