• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Unburstable Combos

Sydoh

Sydoh

Silent Dolphin
Administrator
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
1,802
Reaction score
990
Points
113
Location
Canada (East)
Steam
Sydoh
PSN
worldjem7
Ms. Fortune
So, recently, people have started to find combos that are near-unburstable, or unburstable for a decent amount of time allowing for extended combos and damage and potentially even infinites.

Examples:
Parasoul on Big Band

Peacock on Valentine

Mike's proposed experiment, being able to block and tech throws, but not act, may eliminate burst baits entirely.


How do you think bursts should change so that they still work as intended (to prevent infinites)?

How do you feel about burst baits?

Do you think there should be an effort made to keep burst baits with the new burst change?
 
I would just patch the situation as was done with Squigly chp but considering the amount of these that could potentially be found versus the overall influence patching each instance would have on the game, I prefer Mike's idea for now.


Edit: I hit post instead of enter.. I'll add to this later.
 
If you're mashing like crazy, or trying to throw tech or just didn't recognize the burst bait and burst the first attack that triggers IPS, you should get punished with a full combo.

If you burst after the move that triggered the burst or later, it should be safe, to prevent these burst-safe-combo infinites.

That's my suggestion, anyway. I like burst baits where they are right now but the potential for more of these burst-safe combos to exist is potentially game-breaking.
 
I definitely think burst safe infinites are something that should not be in the game.

With that being said, the current fix for it is a terrible idea and makes me not even want to play the game if it sticks around.

You go from burst baits being a huge threat against people pressing buttons, to "maybe you'll get a mixup on them". There definitely needs to be a bigger for falling into a burst bait.

EDIT:
Jason said:
If you're mashing like crazy, or trying to throw tech or just didn't recognize the burst bait and burst the first attack that triggers IPS, you should get punished with a full combo.

If you burst after the move that triggered the burst or later, it should be safe, to prevent these burst-safe-combo infinites.

That's my suggestion, anyway. I like burst baits where they are right now but the potential for more of these burst-safe combos to exist is potentially game-breaking.

I kinda like this idea
 
worldjem said:
Mike's proposed experiment, being able to block and tech throws, but not act, may eliminate burst baits entirely.

That doesn't eliminate burst baits. It just means that the reward for a burst bait has been reduced from "free combo" to "continuing to exert pressure on your opponent after you finish one combo".

Furthermore, I really dislike any burst suggestion along the lines of "if you burst at THIS time" or "if you press THIS button during this part of the burst". The good thing about the burst system is that it's outwardly simple, yet you need to be cautious about when you burst. Let's wait until the change is in the beta before suggesting overhauls to how bursting works that may do nothing but overcomplicate things.
 
I would do one of a few things to fix it in a way that prevents the removal of burst baits (which is awful, please don't do that).

increase the range of bursts slightly to just reach the characters capable of doing this, or, further the hurtbox of the moves capabale of doing this a bit. There's also the possibility, if it's possible, of adding "Burst" hurtboxes, which would be hurtboxes that only can make contact with the burst animation, to prevent this without giving any characters any direct nerfs.
 
Based on the little information we have on the experiment, I'm not sure it will work well. It sounds like since you can't act at all and can throw tech and block, you can just option select by mashing throw on the way down. You wouldn't have to take any mixup until you touch the ground, at which point you can act anyway.

I doubt an option select like that would be going into SG, so there's probably more details on this we don't know.
 
Does this affect Infinites or just undizzy? I'm guessing both after watching the video?

Just give the burst bait an expanded radius. It will fuck you guys, but I get to keep any HG burst baits... so it's a wash.
 
I'm just going to wait and see how the new changes work and what can be done from there on to eliminate whatever issues are still left over. I can understand fully as to why Mike wants this fixed.
 
konkrete said:
Someone had an idea in IRC is that the longer the combo is, the bigger the burst. I sorta liked that and it does nothing to most setups.

You'd still have to potentially eat a large portion of either of those combos depending exactly on how it scaled. It could be terribly unintuitive having to remember not to burst after the first, second, or third (or whatever) repeated chain. Not a bad idea at all though.
 
Spencer said:
You'd still have to potentially eat a large portion of either of those combos depending exactly on how it scaled. It could be terribly unintuitive having to remember not to burst after the first, second, or third (or whatever) repeated chain. Not a bad idea at all though.
Unless you did it after hits and not chains. Counting say three to five hits is better than counting chains.
 
Whatever other changes may come, I think there should at least be a fail-safe to prevent true burst-proof infinites, like Squigly's old one.
I would say make the IPS track which moves have touched the opponent while they are in stage 6, and if they repeat one, go to stage 7, which gives you a safe burst.
 
konkrete said:
Someone had an idea in IRC is that the longer the combo is, the bigger the burst. I sorta liked that and it does nothing to most setups.

This was basically what I was going to post. That or make it really inefficient meter/damage-wise. Teams with meter should be able to escape with burst alpha counters, solos are an issue though.
 
Just want to add, Peacock can totally infinite Big Band the same way as Valentine.
 
How about, the longer you are hit with burst-able attacks, the larger the burst radius expands? That way, you can still attempt typical burst baits towards the end of your combos, while not letting these discovered ones go on for longer than 2 or 3 hits.
 
How about another section of tracking IPS during burst state - The longer you're being hit with repeated sequence of moves while in burst state, the bigger the burst is.

Burst bait infinites are retarded but not being able to punish mashing with death is also retarded.
 
ClarenceMage said:
How about another section of tracking IPS during burst state - The longer you're being hit with repeated sequence of moves while in burst state, the bigger the burst is.

Burst bait infinites are retarded but not being able to punish mashing with death is also retarded.

That's pretty much exactly what I was suggesting
 
RemiKz said:
That's pretty much exactly what I was suggesting

I didn't click the "This thread has new posts!" notification in time. :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broseidon Rex
After a certain number of hits the game could treat the attacker's hurt boxes the same as vulnerable hitboxes. In effect creating on disjointed attacks.
 
Would have to track individual moves rather than hits, because it would nerf some characters who use multi-hitting normals to burst bait like Double, otherwise you could just wait a bit and burst her off of you. Should be pretty obvious, but just in case this is going to be an actual change, I want to put that out there.
 
Nah fuck number of hits, it should go off of a subset of IPS imo.

Edit: god dammit im just getting ninja'd all day
 
Then at max IPS (stage 5?) your attacks become vulnerable to burst. It would work out that the used up attacks are vulnerable.
 
My suggestion is 2 fold, the first no one will like so i will leave it for last.

zids suggestion of increasing burst only hitboxes, basically does what no one wants anyways which is to allow easy is burst baits. My thing is, most/all of these combos are dependent on the horizontal burst box being to small. So how about just increasing the horizontal burst box while leaving the vertical burst box alone? Incidentally this would still allow fast fall burst baits and the only true burst baits which are basically airthrow mixups, but it would kill sweep setups and burst infinites. The only problem i can really see is that most peoples burst baits are the gimmicky kind that come from horizontal baits rather than fastfall baits and that kills some filia airdashback baits, that i never see anyone use anyway.


2nd solution is just to make bursts behave the same exact way as now only they hit fullscreen. You can still bait them with an invincible move that has enough invincibility, or a tag, but you have to actually like "know" that your opponent is mashing, rather than be able to make a free guess.

And to that, we can actually give all invincible moves more "burst invincibility" to actually go through bursts. The caveat that the move has full invincibility to bursts, up to the first hit, once it hits it can be bursted though. So you guess wrong and you lose a meter and get pushed away, you guess right and you get to do a full combo if your invincible allows it, or you can dhc to full combo.


Seems like the best overall way, no free guesses on either side of the coin. If this stupid for some reason.... Well everything can be tweaked.
 
Dime_x said:
2nd solution is just to make bursts behave the same exact way as now only they hit fullscreen.
smh-google-hangouts-gif.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage, Beamsprouts, TheBlackHombre and 5 others
Another option would be

Mike's proposed experiment, being able to block and tech throws, but not act, may eliminate burst baits entirely.
with the added penalty of whiffing burst = you lose all your meter. I think if you just get a mixup from a successful bait it's kinda meh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage
Age said:
Another option would be


with the added penalty of whiffing burst = you lose all your meter. I think if you just get a mixup from a successful bait it's kinda meh.
That seem way to harsh.
 
If we have learned anything here its that dont go to the wall's. These could not happen mid screen.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Burst bait infinites are retarded but not being able to punish mashing with death is also retarded.

I think we all agree with this fully.

But if it were to come down to infinites vs burst baits, infinites have to go.

@Age , maybe not all your meter, but maybe 1 meter?
 
Just get rid of burst baits. Bring back the MvC2-style undizzy fly-out.
 
Luweewu said:
Just get rid of burst baits. Bring back the MvC2-style undizzy fly-out.
Could you explain it for those of us that didn't play MvC2?
 
Zidiane said:
God damn it.
Yyyyyep. Infinites in my Skullgirls?

Screw burst baits. If you burst you're putting yourself in a mixup situation anyway. Make them not leave you vulnerable and call it a day. (Please yes, unable to act. I don't want to have a burst baited Filia, Valentine, Fortune, Painwheel or Big Band in the air be able to super out of the mixup...)
Spencer said:
Could you explain it for those of us that didn't play MvC2?
Once the limit was reached in MvC2, the character would launch into the air (I believe invincible on the way up) higher than the opponent could reach, then recover in the air. It was the original implementation of undizzy before Mike eventually settled for just combining it into the IPS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime and Spencer
Basically what @guitalex2007 said. You can see it in action with Sentinel in this vid:

And in basically every combo that doesn't reach 999+ hits here:
 
  • Like
Reactions: IknowReal
The suggestion of making the burst hitbox expand on every hit after the initial trigger seems pretty easy, is an 'eternal' fix (there ain't no burst infinite popping up after that), and doesn't really affect anything other than these. I like it.

IknowReal said:
If we have learned anything here its that dont go to the wall's. These could not happen mid screen.
I'm not so sure about that - I recorded this half a year ago:
And while it's burstable in places and no infinite, I wouldn't bet anything on that actually being impossible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NCV
My concern with the increasing hit box is that without some indicator it could be too obtuse resulting in weird confusion as to when to burst.

That said, it does seem to be the most straightforward method to dealing with it without having to change the entire system.
 
If we're going to leave blocking bursts = opponent can act, then I would like to see this remain. At least, now people will have a reason to use burst bait alpha counters. If blocking bursts changes to opponent can block/tech but not act in the air, then I'm fine with burst whiffs being the same. If we're going bigger burst radius, then you shouldn't be able to block, tech or act out of burst period unless you alpha counter.
 
Along with a bigger burst for longer combos after burst hitsparks, you could also give the defender more meter than usual for the hits after the trigger, so it would really discourage it.
 
So, as far as peacock is concerned I noticed that her J.lk chainsaw has hitboxes on the saw itself. What would it change to give her j.lp hammer hitboxes as well? Most Peacocks I've seen burst bait with J.MP, J.HK, and J.FP. Where else does J.lp's disjointedness come into play? Of course this doesn't really stop people from finding similar things with other characters, so maybe working on specific solutions isn't the best idea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back