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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

I seem to recall the first Grandia was quite a bit simpler and took itself less serious then later games, but it's been a long time since I played it, and admittedly I never finished it.

I approach game stories in general the way I would, say, a Star Wars film, or at best a Ray Bradbury short story. I'm not expecting Shakespeare, but what I am expecting (or hoping for) is good pacing, tonal consistency, likable characters, interesting world building, compelling plot, unexpected twists, etc.

You sound like you might enjoy Smt Nocturne. Minimalist characterization but with a great world and tone. Kind of an "adult" oldschool jprg.

YS as I said is also great as an excuse plot that manages to make itself likable through good execution/presentation.

Fire Emblem has always been great. New games are a bit more "anime", but I appreciate them for not taking the tropes too seriously and for keeping the MC's likable and the pacing fast. Personally recommend Blazing Sword, the first localized GBA game (just called Fire Emblem here).

Will give more extended thoughts on Xenoblade and Trails in The Sky once I finish them.

ALSO FUCK I FORGOT ODIN SPHERE

Seriously one of my favorite game stories. Pretty much the Star Wars of video games IMO


Kai said:
My complaint largely holds true across most forms of popular Japanese animated media, but we're talking about RPGs.

To be honest I kind of hate anime too and haven't bothered with anything made in the past 10 years or so.

That being said, I don't have anything against it, and I'm sure there's some diamonds in the rough, I'm just more of a gamer then an anime fan.

Personally I think the majority of Hollywood films are also as formulaic and pandering as your average jrpg/anime. Culturally different, but intellectually the same.
 
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Kai said:
If you're looking for mascot enemies look at the merchandising. Didn't they show off a prototype backer reward already?

Almost any JRPG from PS1 onward will likely have what I consider to be embarrassing missteps in their storytelling, and characters that are beyond cliche. And they'll be super noticeable, too.
  • Why doesn't Tifa tell Cloud about Zack, especially when she can see Sephiroth exploiting that?
  • Why do we only just learn about the GF's memory wiping side effects the moment we're introduced to an amnesia related plot development? Really, none of you remembered any of the others? And are we ever gonna talk about the GODDAMN MOON MONSTERS again?
  • Why does Zidane having properly developed human empathy somehow make him a better killer, more in-line with Trance? That's completely arbitrary.
That's just one example from each of the FFs, but every smaller JRPG from Grandia to Legend of Legaia was absolutely littered with nonsensical character interactions, foggy motives, and generally insufficient explanation for like, half of what was going on at any given time. Don't even get me started on the Breath of Fire series, the epitome of, "because it's in the script."

It's just... I'm 30, now. In JRPGs, every, "cool," character is incredibly lame, every, "funny" character is downright annoying, and every, "cute girl," is a 14 yr old kid. I aged, but the genre never did. It's still full of games made for the teenage version of myself. I just want better from LZ. I know they can do better.

My complaint largely holds true across most forms of popular Japanese animated media, but we're talking about RPGs.

I think GF/Amnesia links were mentioned in one of the kind of obscure walls of text on a computer terminal. Otherwise, yeah, FF8 was weird.

Zidaine's emotions leading to better Trance modes were pretty consistent, though: Trance was triggered by bursts of intense emotion. This is why Kuja needed to drain the feeling from Queen Brahne to activate his. This is also consistent with Garnet's trouble summoning after her emotional trauma knocked her cold.

Anyway, here's the plushie:
tumblr_ns7n2oXQrm1uzx2jzo1_1280.jpg
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
ALSO FUCK I FORGOT ODIN SPHERE Seriously one of my favorite game stories.
And aren't the remastering Odin Sphere? I'll check that out when that comes out.

I still feel that the majority of JRPG stories are below par, if not terrible. I played a lot of them, growing up, I loved them. The writing is just plain bad, though.
 
Kai said:
And aren't the remastering Odin Sphere? I'll check that out when that comes out
They're also adding content along with making general quality of life improvements and system changes. Should be worth checking out.
 
The Dave said:
I think GF/Amnesia links were mentioned in one of the kind of obscure walls of text on a computer terminal. Otherwise, yeah, FF8 was weird.

Zidaine's emotions leading to better Trance modes were pretty consistent, though: Trance was triggered by bursts of intense emotion. This is why Kuja needed to drain the feeling from Queen Brahne to activate his. This is also consistent with Garnet's trouble summoning after her emotional trauma knocked her cold.
I never accept, "it was mentioned in a journal entry/text log" as acceptable, for JRPGs or any other genre. Games are getting really egregious with this, lately D:

And the thing with Brahne was lazy. Making her more likely to go to war was the primary goal, and just so happened to have the side benefit of helping him trance? Why not suck out emotions from more people? Also, Kuja is perfectly capable of showing emotion, just not healthy emotion. Being well adjusted as ammo for the plot gun is dumb, I'm sorry, but it is.

But to take it back to indivisible again, I'll say that SG really captured what I liked about fighters, while removing the stupid bullshit. And here, it's like... what if I could have a JRPG, but without the incredibly trite character archetypes that all JRPGs have? And with better dialogue? Wouldn't that be nice?
Squire Grooktook said:
To be fair, the majority of everything is below par ;)
I absolutely agree that most things are terrible :P
 
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AdenPhoenix said:
They're also adding content along with making general quality of life improvements and system changes. Should be worth checking out.

Yeah, before the game was a pain in the ass to actually play but had great atmosphere and plot.

Some people didn't like the first character you play as or her story. I liked her and thought her story was solid, but things do really kick into high gear on the second "book".

I also loved how, not only did they break the story into 6 "books" each with there own protaganist with a different viewpoint, but they also ordered those "books" non-chronologically. Really gives a sense of scale and "epic" to the adventure that I rarely get from games twice as long. Fun to piece the plot together bit by bit too.

Kai said:
I never accept, "it was mentioned in a journal entry/text log" as acceptable, for JRPGs or any other genre. Games are getting really egregious with this, lately D:

It depends on the type of game. I don't think it's good for a linear, traditional kind of narrative like Final Fantasy. But it would be fine for a "true" role playing game like Souls or SMT where figuring out things for yourself is half the fun.

Kai said:
what if I could have a JRPG, but without the incredibly trite character archetypes that all* JRPGs have?
*most
 
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Kai said:
Almost any JRPG from PS1 onward will likely have what I consider to be embarrassing missteps in their storytelling, and characters that are beyond cliche. And they'll be super noticeable, too.

Parasite Eve in a nutshell, it ignores A LOT of basic biology and the characters are pretty bleh, specially Aya herself.
 
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@Mike_Z
Dunno if someone already asked this or what's shareable at the moment, but what's the team breakdown like?

I'm guessing that folks are pulling double duty, as things seem lean with y'all, but I imagine you're on lead design from a mechanical standpoint, and Char Lead is Señor Ahad. Is Ms. Cartwright anim. lead this time around? What about writing, environment/bg, prop/stuff design, Lead Pasta Technician, etc?

Or conversely, is the L0 approach something else altogether (i.e. no Lead Pasta Technician)?
 
@Mike_Z will Indivisible have a definite ending that concludes the game or will there be a post game that allows for more exploration and gameplay after the story is completed? Like, when we finish the game do we start a new playthrough or are we left with an open world to screw around with?
 
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tekkaxe said:
@Mike_ZDunno if someone already asked this or what's shareable at the moment, but what's the team breakdown like?
They're gonna be hiring more programmers, I know that much. Mentioned in another one of the tweets.
Ktulu said:
@Mike_Z will Indivisible have a definite ending that concludes the game or will there be a post game that allows for more exploration and gameplay after the story is completed? Like, when we finish the game do we start a new playthrough or are we left with an open world to screw around with?
I guarantee it's way too early to know that, lol
 
Kai said:
It's just... I'm 30, now. In JRPGs, every, "cool," character is incredibly lame, every, "funny" character is downright annoying, and every, "cute girl," is a 14 yr old kid. I aged, but the genre never did. It's still full of games made for the teenage version of myself. I just want better from LZ. I know they can do better.[/spoiler]

That's all well and good but remember you're not the initial target audience. Those are the japanese gamers these pander to, who apperently want specifically this, then they localize for us, if it's cost effective.
 
@tekkaxe
Same core team as SG, yes, with some role shifts. No writer for the prototype because there is no writing in the prototype (^.^) but we have most of the other people chosen for if it gets funded.
::dodges the specifics::

@Ktulu
I personally am more of a fan of "extra" content happening before the end of the game rather than after (see: Star Ocean 2), because after the end always feels like "who even cares now", to me.
I am also a fan of New Game + that actually gives you new things to do because you have abilities you didn't have before at that spot, etc, because you're playing the plot again in a new way.
But it's much too early to determine any of that. :^P
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
I seem to recall the first Grandia was quite a bit simpler and took itself less serious then later games, but it's been a long time since I played it, and admittedly I never finished it.

I approach game stories in general the way I would, say, a Star Wars film, or at best a Ray Bradbury short story. I'm not expecting Shakespeare, but what I am expecting (or hoping for) is good pacing, tonal consistency, likable characters, interesting world building, compelling plot, unexpected twists, etc.

Yeah this is something I see alot with movies. this schwarzaneggar movie has bad plot, Pixels ruined my childhood. come on, if you go in looking for entertainment you'll be entertained but if you go in wanting inception of course it's a let down. The worst was, "I hate Jumper all he did was teleport around then fight Sam l Jackson." what the hell else were you expecting?
 
Ronus said:
"I hate Jumper all he did was teleport around then fight Sam l Jackson." what the hell else were you expecting?

Jumper objectively sucks. Though to be fair, I'm not sure if I hate it because it's actually bad or if it's because I was living in a hospital at the time and was super angry at everything.
 
No, you're right. The problems with jumper had nothing to do with, "all he did was teleport around then fight Sam l Jackson." Also, Inception isn't a movie you hold up as some achievement to compare others against. It was a pretty ok movie, that's it.

Although, it did pioneer the artistic use of
BWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
 
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Ronus said:
Yeah this is something I see alot with movies. this schwarzaneggar movie has bad plot, Pixels ruined my childhood. come on, if you go in looking for entertainment you'll be entertained but if you go in wanting inception of course it's a let down. The worst was, "I hate Jumper all he did was teleport around then fight Sam l Jackson." what the hell else were you expecting?

To be fair, there is nuance and talent to creating a good adventure story. I chose Star Wars because it's not "deep" but it is "fun" on a level that's made it a classic that stands above decades of derivative work.

Ray Bradbury short stories are very close to my heart, but I must admit they're length puts them closer to pop culture entertainment then something like Count of Monte Cristo, though they are more slanted towards the emotional and thematically powerful side of things then something like Star Wars.

Anyway, my point is that not everything has to be overwhelmingly deep to be emotional, powerful, or valuable. "The enemy's of escapism are jailers" -Lewis Carol.


Also fuck me I forgot to mention Drakengard and Nier earlier.
 
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I don't even remember the Samuel L Jackson fight. It must have really sucked to make him forgettable.
 
Mike_Z said:
@tekkaxe
Same core team as SG, yes, with some role shifts. No writer for the prototype because there is no writing in the prototype (^.^) but we have most of the other people chosen for if it gets funded.
::dodges the specifics::

@Ktulu
I personally am more of a fan of "extra" content happening before the end of the game rather than after (see: Star Ocean 2), because after the end always feels like "who even cares now", to me.
I am also a fan of New Game + that actually gives you new things to do because you have abilities you didn't have before at that spot, etc, because you're playing the plot again in a new way.
But it's much too early to determine any of that. :^P

When i was looking at this game, i thought, i wonder if this game will feature several playable characters outside of Ajna, like, for example, after you beat the game, you unlock a new character and the game presents a different story to that character, kinda like Odin Sphere, where you control a character, you finish the story of that character, and then, when you finish the game, you'll unlock another character to play, play with that character and unlock the rest of them, once you unlock all of the characters you have access to the "True Secret Ending" where you face the real final boss.

This mechanic is both new and old, some games do it, some games don't, i wonder if your game is going to feature something like that (If your a fan of that kind of mechanic)
 
Demifiend said:
kinda like Odin Sphere
Soooooo...Odin Sphere did that because each character by themselves had like 5 attacks and a few spells (most of which weren't unique).
With all the stuff she's gonna be doing, this is probably not a thing, whether I'm a fan of it or not.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Soooooo...Odin Sphere did that because each character by themselves had like 5 attacks and a few spells (most of which weren't unique).
With all the stuff she's gonna be doing, this is probably not a thing, whether I'm a fan of it or not.
Well, i can't argue with that, pretty much every character is virtually the same only with the exceptions being the character (duh), the weapon and some moves, but it plays much like that character, and the spells aren't the hot shit, though, some items are really useful, like the one where you could obtain more strength for a certain time, or the items that raised certain stats like Defense or Magic.

Speaking of which, i wonder how the consumables are going to be handled.
 
The differences between characters are small, but they make a big difference in practice.

Gwendolyns dive, Velvet's grappling hook, Mercede's Flight, Cornelius's somersault bounce, and Oswalds transformations and jumping combo are things that you're entire gameplan against bosses will hinge around.

In R-Type, the force pod is really the only thing* separating your avatar from those in other shmups, but it makes a world of difference.

I really liked Odin Spheres gameplay conceptually, and I enjoyed the boss fights, but it did have tons of issues in execution. Hopefully the remake addresses the more glaring ones.

*Oh and the charge shot, but that's not as unique as the force pod.
 
Kai said:
And aren't the remastering Odin Sphere? I'll check that out when that comes out.
Wait, you mean... Princess Velvet... in HD? Hoooo ooo ooo ooo maaaann I like the sound of that
 
Dio Brando said:
Parasite Eve in a nutshell, it ignores A LOT of basic biology and the characters are pretty bleh, specially Aya herself.

I feel like I should put out a "to be fair". It's based on some biology that was originally put forth in (I believe) the 1920s and to my knowledge has never really been in vogue. At least the first two games were internally consistent with their pseudo science.
 
Dio Brando said:
Parasite Eve in a nutshell, it ignores A LOT of basic biology and the characters are pretty bleh, specially Aya herself.
alexpi said:
I feel like I should put out a "to be fair". It's based on some biology that was originally put forth in (I believe) the 1920s and to my knowledge has never really been in vogue. At least the first two games were internally consistent with their pseudo science.
how is this true? Parasite Eve was written by an actual Japanese doctor who studied Mitochondria and microbiology i thought

on topic, the game looks so pretty, how long does it take for these things to be ready to be put in game, is it similar to how skullgirls was developed?
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Gwendolyns dive, Velvet's grappling hook, Mercede's Flight, Cornelius's somersault bounce, and Oswalds transformations and jumping combo are things that you're entire gameplan against bosses will hinge around.
This is like saying "your character can only jump; but it's really okay because JUMPS are what your entire gameplan against bosses will hinge around!" OF COURSE that's true, it's ALL they can DO. How can you say that like it's some sort of desirable thing?

There's a difference between being a fully-fledged character with a unique aspect, and only having one gimmick that the player is forced to use ad nauseam. (It's also a false statement, even ignoring that with like two spells and some potions you can just tank most fights, because Gwen's dive is virtually useless compared to just doing 3 hit combos over and over, and Oswald with or without transforming is just "mash till you can't".)
 
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Mike_Z said:
This is like saying "your character can only jump; but it's really okay because JUMPS are what your entire gameplan against bosses will hinge around!" OF COURSE that's true, it's ALL they can DO. How can you say that like it's some sort of desirable thing?

There's a difference between being a fully-fledged character with a unique aspect, and only having one gimmick that the player is forced to use ad nauseam.

Because honestly, I like minimalist design in 2d challenge based games. Stuff like the tight timing on Ryu's jumping slash in Ninja Gaiden, the strategic pod placement in R-Type, the moon jump in Ninja Spirit, the grappling hook in Bionic Commando, etc. are all simple but deeply satisfying mechanics that the game benefit from focusing on rather then throwing in a bunch of extra abilities that only dilute the game.

There's also a difference between a fun mechanic with lots of tactical depth and variety then something the player is "forced" to use over and over. To go back to the R-Type example again, the player isn't "forced" to use the pod (it's possible, though difficult to beat the game entirely without it), and in fact there are multiple ways to approach each situation with it. It's versatility is part of why it's fun to both plan and improvise with, and why spending the entire game mastering it feels engaging and rewarding.

Of course, those are different genres then brawlers/beat em ups. The only brawler I ever played with one-two moves was King of Dragon's, which I actually like, though for different reasons.

Mike_Z said:
(It's also a false statement, even ignoring that with like two spells and some potions you can just tank most fights, because Gwen's dive is virtually useless compared to just doing 3 hit combos over and over, and Oswald with or without transforming is just "mash till you can't".)

Errr, I played Odin Sphere in kind of a...unique way.

I accidentaly skipped over the part of the tutorial that explained how to level up your damage (among other things), and ended up essentially playing the whole game low level.

As a result, most of the boss fights were insane. Also I have to totally disagree about the dive: it's a perfect move for hit and run tactics or crossing up the enemy to safety when you can't get a full combo in.

Keep in mind I"m not saying this in defense of Odin Sphere. It's an insanely repetitive, broken game and the way I played it was stupid, even if it made it more enjoyable (in some places). Like I said, I like the game conceptually, just not in execution (too much grinding if you play it right, too many repeat boss fights, etc. etc) Whenever I'm asked about it, I usually don't recommend it, or do so with extreme caveats.
 
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As a person who wholeheartedly loves Odin Sphere, I wouldn't wish anything to be designed purposefully like Odin Sphere. Maybe Odin Sphere Leifdrasir instead.

Squire Grooktook said:
Because honestly, I like minimalist design in 2d challenge based games. Stuff like the tight timing on Ryu's jumping slash in Ninja Gaiden, the strategic pod placement in R-Type, the moon jump in Ninja Spirit, the grappling hook in Bionic Commando, etc. are all simple but deeply satisfying mechanics that the game benefit from focusing on rather then throwing in a bunch of extra abilities that only dilute the game.
A good core set of rules and solid 'formula' are good, but I usually find that the content is what makes stuff like this boring as hell. There's plenty of games where none of the enemies really change, or require you to think any differently than you start with except with "oh no I'm going to attack you in a few seconds because i'm flashing". Notable example for this is Dust. Notable example of game where enemies change a lot (surprisingly enough)-- Streets Of Fury EX.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Also I have to totally disagree about the dive: it's a perfect move for hit and run tactics or crossing up the enemy to safety when you can't get a full combo in.
Dive is punishable on hit, though. Only her 3-hit combo is not (the last hit is).
And yeah, there's a reason I didn't mention R-Type, or Ninja Gaiden, and instead was talking about the game I was talking about.

Moving on...
 
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Midiman said:
A good core set of rules and solid 'formula' are good, but I usually find that the content is what makes stuff like this boring as hell. There's plenty of games where none of the enemies really change, or require you to think any differently than you start with except with "oh no I'm going to attack you in a few seconds because i'm flashing". Notable example for this is Dust. Notable example of game where enemies change a lot (surprisingly enough)-- Streets Of Fury EX.

Yeah definitely. Level and enemy design is ultimately more important than your "hook" IMO. I always go back to what the designer of Gradius/Contra said in an interview "I wanted to make it so that if a tactic worked one moment, it wouldn't work in the next. The same tactic should never work twice"

Mike_Z said:
Dive is punishable on hit, though. Only her 3-hit combo is not (the last hit is).

I usually use it to kind of cross up large bosses, after jumping out of the way of attacks. It's a good way to maintain offense, since IIRC you want to jump cancel the normal combo most of the time (bosses all have hyper armor and usually are starting up before you're finished), and then you can either dive or escape depending on the enemies state.

Also I've never been quite clear whether to classify Odin Sphere as a brawler or just an action rpg, hence why I brought up the other games.
 
Mike_Z said:
Dive is punishable on hit, though. Only her 3-hit combo is not (the last hit is).
And yeah, there's a reason I didn't mention R-Type, or Ninja Gaiden, and instead was talking about the game I was talking about.

Moving on...
So, what kind of campaign are you proposing to do?, i mean, i'm interested on the stretch goals, if you were saying that there is no going to be story dlc (Thanks god) i wonder what other features you could implement as goals, i'm thinking about a multiplayer mode or rather, full voice acting for every character (Including NPC's), although, if you have said that a feature like multiple characters isn't too reliable to do, then, you could implement gameplay features rather than characters, isn'it?.

Also, i strongly suggest a Boss Rush, you could also add that (not as a stretch goal) but as one of the main features, like, you beat the game and you unlock this mode, i really like this mode because you don't have to pass through every stage to reach just one boss, instead, you can just fight them in a sequential order, obviously, you don't have to take the word from someone who is just a player, rather than a developer, it was just one of those things that crossed my mind (Since Boss Rush modes are getting some popularity in recent years)

P.D: I'm also thinking on a Speedrun Mode, since your game is going to be a combination of SM & VP (Without being like that, only for reference), many of the players will probably relate this game to Metroid (somehow) so, and since the speedrun community has been increasing over the years, and most of them are Metroid Speedruners, I could totally see this game having that option as well.

P.D.2: I can't imagine how could you implement online in this kind of game, let alone a multiplayer mode, it would be interesting to see in action.
 
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I really hope there is something similar to this in the game.
Since the main character has an axe for a weapon.
 
Vagplus said:
I really hope there is something similar to this in the game.
Since the main character has an axe for a weapon.
NO. MEMES. NOR. REFERENCES.

I can't speak for the devs but I ain't taking any of that.
 
ArgonBern said:
NO. MEMES. NOR. REFERENCES.

I can't speak for the devs but I ain't taking any of that.

I guess so, some people didn't enjoy them in skullgirls a whole lot.

Edit: Sorry for asking about that.Without even knowing what everyone wanted.
 
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Unfortunately that's like 80% of any conversation involving any upcoming game I've seen so far, although it's put in a wondering format.

Here's a question: was the engine you're going to use updated with a few new kicks since SG or hasn't it changed?
 
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