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...Josh's struggle to not suck...

Fedora_Ninja said:
stuff about bounce

a good example is when you try to combo with bella. you would try to use the purple bounce by starting in the air with j.mk > j.hk, but that sequence requires said bounce. if you catch them after the purple particle effect, use her restand sequence with like j.mp > j.hp.
 
Ok so i did some digging into my team mechanics and I found something out. When I use French twist with Filia in the air and I attack after the assist IPS starts but If I do it during the attack I'm in the clear.

Next looked at some OTG less combos so hopefully now I remember which one is which....

Run stop training complete I can now do run stop combos but I'm not going to use them cause they are garbage. I found that run stop is only good for making moves safe and setting up 50/50s with cr.mk. I however did find 3 burst baits with Bella that I'm going to try out. Lastly never use Diamond Drop NEVER unless your back is to the corner because you lose all pressure if used. #MGRboyz
 
So I wanted a follow up set with Fenster to compare and contrast from the last time we fought

So as I've rewatch the video stuff I need to work on:
*Blocking...
*Maintaining pressure
*Baiting more with both Fukua and Bella
*Reset more with Fukua cause even though I think the resets are dumb and obvious people get hit with them all the time so I need to stop doubting that.
*Better incoming setups

Also note that I had 5 bars in one match @mcpeanuts so dreams do come true

Also that being said the stuff I have worked on has shown:
* I didn't raw fenerir once the entire set so @Dreamepitaph I listened
* I tried to save my meter
* I tried to bait
 
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joshb911 said:
never use Diamond Drop
Wut. It's an invincible startup unblockable that forces fear in the opponent. All you have to do is guess if they'll upback or not. As for losing pressure, just follow up with tumble run and you'll still be on that ass.
 
Fedora_Ninja said:
Wut. It's an invincible startup unblockable that forces fear in the opponent. All you have to do is guess if they'll upback or not. As for losing pressure, just follow up with tumble run and you'll still be on that ass.
I figured something out while playing some good players and watching Winnie and Sage play. They never letup on pressure no matter what happens once they get a hit it's a guessing game until death. I want to play like that I don't want to return to neutral cause I'm terrible in neutral I can't block to save my life and I can't tech grabs so the solution to that is to overwhelm my opponent with my high, low, pressure game that fukua and filia both have
 
How in the world did you upload to youtube that fast, damn, I still haven't eaten breakfeast yet D:
 
joshb911 said:
So I wanted a follow up set with Fenster to compare and contrast from the last time we fought

I can't tell because of the quality, but at around 25:40, was Sekhmet off the ground? It seemed like a good opportunity for Ultimate Showstopper, but you went into Dynamo.
 
leetnoobify said:
I can't tell because of the quality, but at around 25:40, was Sekhmet off the ground? It seemed like a good opportunity for Ultimate Showstopper, but you went into Dynamo.
Fenster had not used Sekhmet the entire set so I assumed he would just return her back to Eliza so I made a hard read on that and it failed
 
joshb911 said:
Fenster had not used Sekhmet the entire set so I assumed he would just return her back to Eliza so I made a hard read on that and it failed

I'll go over the set and tell you things you should've done and such, but let me point out 4 things wrong about this and why you should've done something different

1. On blocking sekhmets axe, bella's 360 is actually punish, and is actually one of the few easier things in the game that can punish sekhmet reliably even though it costs bar.

2. Knowing the above, 360 would've also allowed an actual followup combo instead of dynamo when it was midscreen, so it would've been the prefered punish really.

3. A much safer bet to look at for if eliza's will return or not to the anchor when in sekhmet is to look at their meter. Unless the Eliza is Midiman, most eliza's will return when their meter is below a bar to stay safe and keep meter for super, or not be forced to return when it runs out. If they have more than 2 bars though, like what I had at that point, I'm much more likely to go "Eh, fuck it I'll just stay sekhmet"

4. If you were going to avoid trying for a true punish and were trying to yomi what I'd do after the block, the least you can try is go for Air throw (or maybe excllabella for bella if you'd prefer, I won't go into that) since most of us Eliza players default to upbacking after a blocked axe.
 
I did not know that.... I thought that after the axe you could just jump because I'm still in block stun.... Never mind time to mash 360 on sekhmet..........
Just tested it and you can in fact punish with any grab. The only issue is being able to tell if the opponent is delaying the axe cause you can bait out a grab with a delayed overhead and go into two more overheads. #ElizaIsFair
 
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fenster said:
1. On blocking sekhmets axe, bella's 360 is actually punish, and is actually one of the few easier things in the game that can punish sekhmet reliably even though it costs bar.

if 360 execution is wobbly, though, i'd just suggest diamond drop?
 
so after playing for like 2 weeks in beta and trying to go back to retail I realized that retail is awful like my god is it bad...
Any ways some notes that I've taken and stuff I've found with respect to matches.
*I need to stay out of the corner
*Parasoul is crazy with her high low game in the corner. And jumping gets baited out with grab so I need to experiment with some anti mixup tech (I'm thinking that for the parasoul match up that having updo would be advantageous compared to LNL)
*H shadow sucks now so only use it as oki. I need to use m. shadow more to get people off me in neutral
*The more and more I just relax and play by my rules and less about how others are playing I play much better
*I need to develop an anti zonning team (I'm thinking BB, Fukua, Bella) cause I can not seem to get around peacock and her maze with Filia
*Patience is the key to winning in this game. When players do nothing wait and see what they do if they go for grab every time wait 1 second, jump, counter measure
*Filia air dashing plus french twist is broken like really really broken. Like why are there not more teams with this setup or like any character that has an airdash plus french twist?
*I think mashing s.lp or cr.lk might be the best option for dealing with parasoul's vortex (I'll have to look at frame data but I can't think of any other way to beat it besides mashing super which I want to avoid)
*Always and I mean always snap BB in ALWAYS!!!
 
Fukua. Anyhow h shadow doesnt suck. Use it wisely. people get hit by the damn thing cause they dash downback.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Fukua. Anyhow h shadow doesnt suck. Use it wisely. people get hit by the damn thing cause they dash downback.
No I mean I use it when people jump cause I think oh wait there not gonna jump at me hahaha..... whiffs punish..... "RIP me". M.shadow seems to be a good mix of pressure and safety against air born players. I'm not saying I'll use it like I use l.shadow but I've been jumped at way to much so I need to switch it up.
 
Okay, so let me just point out some obvious things. I'm only pointing out the mistakes here but there are a bunch of positives too if you look back on it, so if I didn't comment on it it was probably good/okay. BTW this was done before I saw your post on what to do which covers some of this and to which I agree with a bunch of that stuff.


1:16 - You missed an important SSJ punish that should've killed or at least switch in fukua.

1:25 - Here I would just disagree with the decision on the approach. So you dropped your combo and you needed a way in, but here you went with a ground dash instead of the air dash. If I normally hit you with a lot of DPs and stuff, I could see why you'd do that as you could still block I think, but I think at this point in the same round I did 3 ground grabs (4 if you count the L A train), so it should've been obvious that I was trying to catch you being grounded. Not only that, but it's Big Band, who in general is very susceptible to overheads and filia can take advantage of that when she is up close in air dash range. Basically: when up close to big band, ESPECIALLY when I've been going for lots of grabs, don't be afraid to go for air dash approaches.

2:18 - Not a real comment, but WTF why does Eliza just say Scirocco here? lol

2:25 - This was a good reset, but you didn't convert off of it, and since I don't think I normally see you use that reset (at least from the rest of this and the previous set), not sure if you are used to it? Keep practicing it

3:01 - I don't think this is the first time I've seen you drop the pickup off of H shadow so that's worth practicing, I think an ideal button is cMP?

3:05 - Starting from here, it should've been pretty obvious that I was just downbacking + assist to wait for you to come in too hard. I called Beat extend like 4 times and you kept coming in the same way. You should definitely keep in mind that this is a kind of strategy you need to learn to deal with cause I wasn't being pressured at all here.

4:13 - Here, I'm questioning why you didn't try to zone out Big Band at all. You had a lot of space to play with, but you just just went in. Also evidenced when you seemed to intentionally wait for Cymbals to whiff, then you dashed in but did nothing. If Big Band's cymbals whiffed, you can take advantage cause he's just gonna sit there till he comes to the ground. At least do something like L shadow...or run up grab since most BBs would do rush punch/a train after Cymbals. Here, you were just too cautious in a situation you should've had more control in.

4:56 - This is just a messy section. You wokeup with Lnl, okay. But when I clearly was still in range, and the assist was in front of you, you really should've tried Dynamo since either it would've caught me (which in that situation it would've) or at worst you'll be dead which you already were going to be since I was in good range to punish. When I messed up the corner combo, you wokeup with something? Throw? I can only guess 360 which is okay but if it was anything other than horns/360/dynamo I have to question why.

5:55 - Seriously, what was this? assist + special move I guess? Honestly I would focus more on just trying super -> dhc to take out filia than worry about optimizing if thats what you tried. Even if you though Eliza was worth snapping in, she would've come in anyways once BB dies.

6:00 - You mess up and get sHK on block. That sucks, but tbh at least you should've tried canceling into DP anyways I think since, until the opponent proves otherwise, frametrap DP probably is gonna hit.

6:29 - Right idea to get out of this, just commit harder to the chain when you do this cause theres no point in not commiting when you try stuff like that.

6:40 - It seemed like you were completely ready for my air approach, so I wonder why you didn't anti air me? Drill, cMP, and sHP all would've hit me but again I felt like you were trying to be patient but weren't trying to outguess me.

7:02 - What? No.

7:16 - Missed a super obvious punish. I know lots of errors are going on, but at least try diamond drop since that would've caught anything else I did in a blockstring.

7:45 - Yeah I know :(

Next match I dunno what to say. I dunno, just do bella 3 at some point? If you see me call assist and you're bella on wakeup, there is like a 90% chance Level 3 is going to magically hit both of us so you might as well do it.

10:50 - I'm trying not to put the positives here, but I did want to point out that this sequence worked out well.

10:51 - Why the second tag :( , after the first one you should've realized the mistake and just rolled with it since I presume you wanted filia back in. Nothing else to say about the rest of the match since it was just Parasoul resets.

Next match, I just felt like your defense was weak under assist pressure, especially against BE asssist, so maybe lab it a bit to get a feel for how to handle dealing with that assist after blocking.

15:08 - I'm glad this is on video, hooray converting off the whiffed SSJ :v

15:37 - Second time you messed up converting off of Bella Air grab, worth practicing

17:14 - Second time you messed up a post-gregor followup, super important

20:22 - Again, messed up gregor followup, I mean maybe this was a reset but filia had so much other potential resets to use that this one seems pretty bad if it was one.

22:10 - You did a really weird post burst bait combo? Dunno if you have a solid one down but its worth really knowing both how to burst bait AND how to convert off of it well

22:39 - I'm pretty sure filia has a million years to convert off of a raw sHK? especially in the corner? If you don't know how to do it well, look it up or lab it up.

25:20 - Not gonna lie, at this point I was just trying to do IAD jLK over and over till you dealt with it. It's definitely worth practicing against that since it's something every Eliza is gonna do.

Its hard to give any general overview here. You still fell a lot into cymbals, your defense in general against resets was poor no matter what character I used, you missed a bunch of conversions multiple times, and you definitely tried to guess throw too much out of my resets since you ended up getting CH more than I think I even attempted to try throw resets. Your filia also was a little too grounded, especially in the beginning of rounds. Fukua could use more work zoning. Bella you just need to play more I guess to get better used to her playstyle and conversions. Those are just general notes that could be improved on.
 
@fenster I have a huge problem with giving my opponent way to much credit and assuming that they can read everything I do and punish me very easily. The entire time I was fighting you BB thoughts such as "but he can DP me if I air dash over him" and "how many low pokes till grab" kept running in my head. So any time something happened I was so shocked that I hit you that I didn't know what to do. And as you noticed I am trying desperately to play more patiently and work on my blocking and reading abilities. I didn't want to try to out guess you cause I knew you would beat me if I played like that. I'm not used to playing this patiently so I messed up alot like alot. I'm still trying to get over my habit of watching my character and not yours the entire time so alot of my problems can be linked to that flaw. I also need to stop basing my gameplay around what I know a character can do but base it off what my opponent can do.

And yes my Fukua should zone...........
I greatly appreciate all the feedback and I plan on practicing all the stuff you suggested
 
So this is just a general question and I'm really interested in knowing: What makes a reset good? Cause the more and more I look for resets the more and more I ask myself "are people stupid enough to fall for this" then I ask myself would I fall for it and I never seem to make progress
 
For a reset to work it has to use the following requirements:
1. the combo drops(duh)
2. You have options for mixup(also duh)
3. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!: Unpredictability.

Doing a reset at a certain point all the time will get you countered at some point. to reset successfully you have to learn to vary your resets points and times and use different options. if the opponent likes to mash then crossunder them. if the opponent likes to downback on the ground then airgrab or just grab them. the point of reset isn't only to grant more damage. but also gets a chance to get inside the person's head.
 
I don't think the most important thing is unpredictability as it pretty much disappears after you do that reset like twice, the player is the one that should be unpredictable. imo what makes a great reset/setup is how many options you have from it, bella's launch runstop for example gives her a million different options so you can use it as many times as you want to great success without ever having too worry about being predictable
 
CaioLugon said:
I don't think the most important thing is unpredictability as it pretty much disappears after you do that reset like twice, the player is the one that should be unpredictable. imo what makes a great reset/setup is how many options you have from it, bella's launch runstop for example gives her a million different options so you can use it as many times as you want to great success without ever having too worry about being predictable

that's unpredictability as well caio. i'm also not saying the same reset i'm talking about varying your reset points. reset early reset late. yeah a reset points needs options as well not just one option like j.hp adc airgrab

the only runstop reset you need is airgrab :>| mr.optimal
 
resets that limit the opponents options are good. by that I mean resets that are safe/beat reversals, resets low to the ground because doing a reversal is harder, resets that can lead to low/throw/burst and/or left/right mixups. junk like that

but really, I think a lot of factors determine how "good" something is. if the opponent doesn't expect a reset then it doesn't need to be anything special, they could have a ton of options to escape but not be ready to use them, so it doesn't even matter.
 
Ok done fucking around. I have to disable online for Steam for the next week to train for real so I can end this speculation that I'm free cause I'm sick of that label so time to silence the disbelievers

1. Combo evaluation and selection
2. Reset Creation and Evaluation
3. Execution Optimization
4. Beat Luna

Time to grind
 
4 : activate online on steam again
4bis : play people
5 : learn not to panic
6 : learn to read your opponent
7 : learn how to use assists
8 : learn how to counter assists
9 : match up experience
10 : key situations analysis

optional :
11 : meter management
12 : undizzy optimisation after resetting
13 : optimized combo for every kind of weird opening, for the situations in which it would kill
14 : midscreen assist kill
15 : having fun while playing, even if you're losing
16 : hability to learn from your mistakes in real time, and adapt accordingly mid-set

Maybe what you're doing is necessary. But it's 25% max of what it takes to get good.
Maybe these 25% will be enough to beat luna though.
 
@dragonos451 I'm gonna take this and modify it to make it more usable cause this is a really good outline on how to get good. I'm dead serious this is really useful.
But I'm gonna consolidate it into this:
1. Team formation
2. Play style selection
3. Combo selection
4. Reset/Bait understanding, selection, follow up path
5. Execution optimization
6. Assist based combos, reset/bait creation, follow up paths
7. Execution optimization
8. Learn each characters typical paths
9. Simulate said paths and develop counter measures for neutral optimization
10. Execution optimization
11. Online testing
12. Execution optimization
13. Break apart habits and alter if wrong
14. Remain calm under pressure (should not be an issue if step 9 is done)
15. Dissect opponents tendency and select correct measure based on steps 4, 6, and 9
16. Be able to do steps 13-15 online
 
9:58. You could've POSSIBLY killed BB by doing a cerecopter after the dynamo. Dynamo > Cerecopter xx Dynamo
 
joshb911 said:
1. Learn neutral.
2. Learn neutral.
3. Learn neutral.
4. Learn neutral.
5. Learn neutral.
6. Learn neutral.
7. Learn neutral.
8. Learn neutral.
9. Learn neutral.
10. Learn neutral.
11. Online testing
12. Learn neutral.
13. Break apart habits and alter if wrong
14. Remain calm under pressure (should not be an issue if step 9 is done)
15. Dissect opponents tendency and select correct measure based on steps 4, 6, and 9
16. Be able to do steps 13-15 online
FTFY
 
Execution optimization is pretty self explanatory...
It's execution practice to the point of highest success rate
 
Yomabudd_y said:
FTFY
This game is not played in neutral.... I already tried playing street fighter with this game and it failed so now I have to conform to the rules of this game which encourages "set play" not neutral
 
Setplay is your reward for successful neutral. It can be the underlying goal for your decisions but it should not be your primary objective. Look at how Justin Wong plays KI for instance. You can say the game is based around combos and and combo breakers and that whole mechanic but Justin completely ducks that whole concept and does short combos and basically plays neutral extremely well compared to most KI players so they don't get to touch him.

Viscant said this about Ricky Ortiz in SFxT
Ricky just did ABC into launch, but [she's] Ricky so you can never hit [her]; if you never get hit you never lose.

I can say this with personal experience because I was stuck in the vortex you are currently. Now I spend my time in practice mode mostly looking at why I lose neutral and try to find ways around it, eg "I got hit by L Extend at that spacing, let's see what I could do against it, ok I can win the spacing before the call, countercall, throw the point, etc"

EDIT: I fully understand that learning neutral is super difficult on your own, but you have resources here to ask for help, you have what is possibly the best training mode in all of fighting games and you can ask people for help. There isn't really a legitimate excuse for not working on your neutral. You CAN get away with just doing one mixup over and over, because if you never get hit you never lose.
 
Stopping in to say that fanfic I read was godlike

It's a shame it needs to be edited for a PG13 audience :^)

As for neutral, what Yomabudd_y said, setplay, things like oki shenanigans and baiting your opponent's reversal and etc. are rewards for successful neutral. Pressure your opponent, gain the upperhand with a hit, and don't get hit yourself by throwing yourself into a fire or to bait etc.

And Street Fighter encourages hella neutral along with at least some modicum, if not a lot of, setplay.
 
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