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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

bubbaking said:
@Dime_x: So I don't really want to get into this topic, but I'm not sure all of this stuff necessarily has to apply.

I'm not sure if this actually means anything. From what I have observed, you can break throws for a split second after you get grabbed so there really isn't a specific 'throw break animation' except for the part actually after the break. There shouldn't be any problem if that is also the case with fly. You don't need to specifically see the person trying to break the throw before it happens.


There are some moves in some FGs that allow you to tech throws at some point during them, but they don't let you do anything else. You don't necessarily need to be able to throw in order to be able to throw break, from a design standpoint that is.

Again, I'm not really for or against the implementation of such a thing as being able to tech grabs out of fly start-up. I'm just saying that there are definitely ways to implement it without it being broken or even doing anything other than letting PW tech during fly-startup. Of course, another way to do it is to shorten the start-up on fly but make it so that she can't actually do anything notable out of that shortened start-up. Kinda like how on hit, Bella's dash inputs are disabled for 13f after recovery but she can do other things.


I dont think either of you are really getting it. I do get what you are saying bubbaking, and you are right in that "something" could be done to allow pw to tech throws from fly startup.

But that allowance whatever it is would more than likely do one or more of these things:


1. Be broken and allow for option selects of some sort
2. Be buggy
3. Be convoluted as far as the amount of things and rules you would have to put in place and would lead to the first number on this list.
4. Be a perfect solution but make it exceptionally hard to actually tech throws and thus being not really much of a solution at all.


Idk what skarmand is on about. Half his posts on this topic makes some sense as far as what he's trying to describe, the other half... Dont. As far as i can tell.
 
@Dime_x Just like, if you're thrown while in fly start up and you press throw after you have been grabbed, you tech it.

That's all I'm talking about. No bugs or option selects.

Also I think you were under the impression throw doesn't cancel flight? It's not a strong option select because it only covers one option, them throwing you. If they do anything else you're falling open in CH state for 30 frames.

I don't think it would be buggy at all. If you press throw and they haven't thrown you get baited and fall for 30 frames and CH'd and if they throw you then you tech it. Just like a regular throw?
 
.. no i think i know what you are on about now.

I forgot the fact that throws done during fly startup will get buffered to come out once the fly startup has finished.

IN THAT CASE, i am wrong, sorry, i apologize (see i can admit when I'm wrong, contrary to popular belief)

I was assuming that nothing would come out when teching early during flight startup... For whatever reason.

My bad yo.

I still dont think its particularly needed, but nothing broken should come of it as long as a wiffed throw comes out as a buffer for when painwheels guess incorrectly.
 
I guess the biggest problem I have with it is they expected an upback or went for an air throw for whatever reason, that's fine, but then suddenly because of their altered timing which was completely by accident, I'm unable to tech the throw.

It just doesn't really feel like the opponent outplayed me enough to deserve an untechable throw, but rather it was just bad luck that the timing happened to line up the way it did, especially because both my timing on fly activation and their timing on the throw will always be different.

I put together a little example in a video showing the timing, but this will be my last post on the matter that I start at least.

You can't set the AI to tech during a recording so pretend the word Tech is actually a tech.

 
Yeah that example is almost exactly what i have a problem with. I mean i can see what you are saying... But I'm thinking:


1. Why are you flying in the corner in the first place? This is a TERRIBLE place to fly.
2. Your opponent is committing to airthrow early in that example... Why are you flying and why are you flying and then trying to tech? It makes no sense to change your mind like that. Unless you are trying to fly and then tech to cover a couple of options... In other words why not just jump back and tech?
3. Upback and do a thresher will kill that airthrow of theirs. Yeah it takes a read. Thats what happens when you get cornered.

What it really seems like to me is that you want the ability to do a sort of reactionary option select where you jumpback and i put fly and look at their character and if they jump toward you, react with a throw break. And thats the exact sort of thing i personally do not want... So in our case... We basically wont agree.

I believe in stupid mixups that cause pure guesses and reads. I like reactions for neutral.

And also as far as being outplayed... That example was in the corner... You got outplayed if you are in the corner. It doesnt matter whether you have your opponent cornered and then he got a hit on you and crossed you up into the corner, or if he did a corner to corner bnb that carried you there... Corner always = outplayed. And the crazy mixups that come from being in the corner are the reward to the other person for outplaying you.


And also, i do use fly in the corner sometimes, but i mean... Its really a crapshoot and very very unsafe. I mostly use it against ranged pressure from someone using a horizontal assist like bomber or something... But yeah.

In that example vid in my mind, things are working 100% fine. If you want to tech, dont fly... Which goes all the way back to my first sentence in the first post on this topic:


Dont fly within range of the opponent being able to airthrow you.

However skarmand, were this a different game i could actually understand and even go along with this thinking since other, terribly balanced and programmed games have option selects such as that. But in sg... Most option selects are discouraged by the design. Which is one of the best features of sg... To me anyways.
 
Skarmand said:
I guess the biggest problem I have with it is they expected an upback or went for an air throw for whatever reason, that's fine, but then suddenly because of their altered timing which was completely by accident, I'm unable to tech the throw.
This happens if you went to TK any special move and they decided to airthrow, or if they ground threw you out of the startup of any special move that you decided to do at that point. You committed to doing a thing that required a button press! Stance startup is counterhit. I seriously do not understand why you expect this one particular thing to be completely different.

I could make the same damn video about instant j.LP and it would be just as ridiculous.
 
So... Not a big question... But mikes always maintained that painwheel was perfectly fine and that painwheels were "complainwheels" (even though pretty much all of us play different characters as well and never ask for buffs for those characters)... And pw got like 3rd on point at evo and won a major also iirc. Which further "cemented" arguments that shes fine and its all of us being bad.

So my question is... Why all of these proposed painwheel buffs? If she was fine, all these buffs make no sense.
 
I don't think this is a very good topic to bring up for specific reasons...
However...
IMO, these 'buffs' just make sense. PW was the only relevant char missing out on the low deal (not the only char but the only one with her stats; I posted about it before).
bubbaking said:
I will just say that I always thought c.MK should have been a low from the very beginning. More than half the cast gets access to all three crouching kicks being low and the ones that don't have crazy zoning or command grab options (Peacock, BB, Bella) or are Ms. Fortune. It didn't really make sense that PW didn't get three lows. <__<
Lower unfly blockstun is to make up for the fact that she doesn't have an AD or DJ and she can't block while flying, even though flying is her only real form of mobility, and it also allows her to maintain a form of aggression (which seems to be what she's designed around), even when she's forced to block, or at least that's how I see it. c.HP always looked like an overhead to me and I found it extremely odd that it wasn't. That and it's an important mix-up option when she's charging a move on the ground.
bubbaking said:
Yeah, that's true. I didn't actually forget about that, but I didn't consider it mostly because the opponent can also just react to a fully charged c.HK (or any fully charged grounded heavy). None of PW's grounded charge moves hit high (I actually really, really wish her c.HP hit high for this very reason), so you can kinda just quickly switch back to crouch-block the moment you see a Hatred charge.
That.....was really it. I don't really think PW being a good or bad char has that much to do with it. These are just changes that fit her design, or at least that's the way I see it.

I don't wanna be a 'complainwheel'. :p

About the tourney placement stuff, a char placing well does not necessarily mean much. Look at SFIVAE:2012. Evil Ryu was pretty much seen by everyone as being Low Tier, yet he won that Capcom Cup. BBCP? My main, Amane, is bottom tier, but he won two majors (very close to each other, too). In Melee, you had a 'mediocre' char like Pikachu consistently getting top 8 at internationals thanks to Axe. In Brawl, DK is pretty bad, but Will is a DK god and would get top 4 placements at all these majors. Placements don't necessarily mean anything other than that the player is really good, regardless of which char he is playing. They start to indicate something when they are repeated frequently by multiple different players.
 
I think in a sense that she is "fine", though I think she is almost unanimously placed as low tier. So she is fine in the sense that all SG characters are fine.

On my view, her only real problem is that she has some god-awful match-ups. I'd be curious in a solo v solo list, what people think SG's 5 worst MUs are. I would bet that PW is on the list at least once. Couple that with no really favorable match-ups (I think she toes the line pretty close to 5-5 on her "best" match-ups), and she's a tough pick compared to some of the no-brainers.

Finally, her issues and her bad match-ups can be some what mitigated with assists, but she doesn't scale as well as some others with assists... meaning you have a character that almost needs assists that still can't use the assists as well as some other characters. She's definitely no Peacock that turns from 'meh' to 'god' by adding an assist.

That said, she is pretty 'fine', and I'm slowly coming to grips with the fact that her issues probably can't be patched out. Though I'd stab someone for better meter gain... that is all.
 
Spencer said:
On my view, her only real problem is that she has some god-awful match-ups.
I honestly think her matchups aren't that bad. Even parasoul isn't as bad as I used to think. Even Peacock can be manageable. And it all has to do with armor and flight maneuverability. Painwheel has a toolbox between all the different armor usage, flight, unfly, projectiles and SAFE on BLOCK buer (their range is huge too) that people tend to forget about. Add in neutral assists and Painwheel can contend with most of the cast. It's just a matter of knowing the matchup, and knowing what to do about her opponents best options (and reactions are important too.) Add the best air super in the game and you start to really see PW as the character that can chicken block whenever she wants along with pbgc. Most painwheels I see tend to try to flail about with j mp. It's a good button for space control, but as a jump in should be used sparingly. When you think your opponent has a defensive mindset under pressure or is crumpling in neutral and making bad jump towards is the time to use it. Painwheel IS "fine" Perhaps even really good : ^ )

edit: one real weakness is being reset NOT into crazy low/throw. She has death crawl for that. When characters begin to uncombo and just jump in at you and call assist is when things get hairy. It's hard to armor pressure like that. On a side not, jab, st mp and (somewhat) sweep armor are super good for anti air
 
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Her meter gain is awful. Thresher is phenomenal. You'll hear no complaint from me about Thresher. My only criticism is you're lucky to use it much. If you are solo, you should likely be saving all of your meter for Thresher (you're likely to get one per round). If you are in a team on point, you are torn between using the meter or saving it for a character that can use it better (I have to have at least one meter for my incoming Squig).

I almost never recommend DC raw unless you have the assist and meter to safely DHC. It is just far too unsafe. Occasionally, you'll catch a break and hit someone trying to Oki from the ground, but generally you're going to eat a lot of damage... so do it sparingly out of desperation.

As far as her match-ups, they do get better with an assist... but like I said above, she doesn't use assists as well as other characters. Without an assist... ouch (which is why I think people are crazy putting her at last). I'd love to see some PW v Parasoul matches though. There aren't enough great players on either side, so seeing good matches is rare (the last I saw was Uzu v Elda... and Uzu's Para was definitely giving Elda problems... in many cases Elda performed better when his PW was killed/tagged-out).

We are seeing better players try to pick her up, so I could be wrong (we'll see if they stick her out)... but I don't think you'll see a mass exodus toward PW. She is tough to learn with some quirks (to say the least) that I think will prevent people from putting the time in necessary to learn her (which is substantial... ). I don't think she's ever going to be realistically "top tier", but with a team built around her, she is more than viable.

The Elda/Uzu set for those interested:
 
IMO, PW's absolute worst MU is Peacock. I feel like she really can't deal with a good peacock at all without a good assist. Between item drop, all the Georges, and her j.HK, she controls the air space around her too well, and we definitely have no hope of approaching on the ground. She can also back the f**k up faster than we can advance, which is terrible.

Edit: However, I think we slightly beat Big Band. It is just way too easy to convert off any hit and we can beat his armor with our multi-hit aerials if he doesn't immediately cancel into SSJ or level 3. On top of that, we can just unfly to block both A-train and dash punch. We can also just straight-up armor through HIS armor; I have gotten so many combo starters by just throwing out fully charged s.HP in response to any dash move at all from BB. On top of that, I've also armored through with fully charged s.HK, and if it's used too early, the sweep takes out armor anyway. From full-screen, charged M and H nails beat out all of his armor options (but you still have to watch out for his earthquake). The hardest part of this MU is planting resets in the middle of our combos, but I feel we simply win neutral and we can just finish our food each time or go for that burst bait set-up that Dime mentioned earlier.

Edit 2: Buer is -18 on block. There's no way that move is safe on block...is there? (O_o)
 
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bubbaking said:
Edit 2: Buer is -18 on block. There's no way that move is safe on block...is there? (O_o)
It has a long reach so people that aren't close enough can't punish properly.
 
Why are Painwheel's matchups bad matchups? Anyone want to elaborate on that? Generally, in order to solve the issues in a matchup, it helps to discuss it. bubbaking put his thoughts on the PW/Peacock matchup. What are other people's thoughts on this matchup? And the other bad matchups?
 
Which one do you want to know about?

In my view Parasoul is the worst match-up. Her moves beat out ours in just about every situation. She can zone you. She has good defensive options in the form of Pillar. Generally, she beats you at every range, air or ground.

To win you have to bait her into making a mistake, but she has the momentum starting the match, literally. Without an assist she is scary at the start of a match. Meaning you start at a disadvantage.

Now admittedly, this is a particularly hard match-up for me, so some of this is probably a "me' thing and not a "PW" thing.
 
Spencer said:
Which one do you want to know about?

All of them. From every Painwheel player's point of view. That is willing to give their point of view.

All of them.
 
gllt said:
Why are Painwheel's matchups bad matchups? Anyone want to elaborate on that? Generally, in order to solve the issues in a matchup, it helps to discuss it. bubbaking put his thoughts on the PW/Peacock matchup. What are other people's thoughts on this matchup? And the other bad matchups?


Rather than argue, I'd just rather answer this question. Note that I'm no longer of the opinion that pw is weak... L beat extend solves many of her problems against everyone not named peacock... Anyways ill Simply list the moves /strategy that make matchups hard for me when i play her:


Peacock: jump back j.hk covers the air perfectly and puts a 2 hit wall that pw finds it hard to armor through. And basically stops pw forward flight movement for a time. From midscreen or further the combo of hk plane>wait to see armor>call hp item drop.. Is very hard to beat cause pw cant armor through it for 2 hits. Even as a rote pattern the plane into item drop combo is hard to beat because if pw flys backwards to make the plane wiff... The item drop will hit her. If pw continues to move forward though... Which makes lvl 1 item drop wiff... Then pw gets hit by the plane. This pattern is excruciatingly hard to stop becaus if pw gets hit by either move, peacock can do the pattern again since she will generally have cooled her moves off. I havent tried unfly against it yet though and it may be a saviour in the matchup.


Parasoul. Idk. It just seems like a slight favor to para. There is technology that @ClarenceMage taught me which is to fly and then armor and cancel into thresher if i see para try to jump hit me. Its a guess but a much higher probability guess than just raw thresher since you can react to what para does.
The problem is parasouls j.hp and j.lp,j.hp combo are near unbeatable for pw in the air. Thresher wins but is a hard read that costs you a match for missing since you lose a meter AND get punished. Other than that there isnt much special about the matchup. And pw excels at destroying parasoul once pw gets a hit by air resetting parasoul, which para cant do much about except guess perfectly right.


Bella... Much like the parasoul matchup except bella does ludicrous damage and para doesnt and bella can mash out DD on the ground whereas you can actually ground reset para pretty consistently.

You can substitute bellas j.mp for paras j.hp and bellas j.mp,j.hp or j.lk,j.hp for paras j.lp,j.hp combo... They are close to being the same. Para gets a combo whereas bella pushes you into the corner and does stupid bella damage.
This matchup is also a candidate for using j.hp to absorb one hit of air to air and then canceling into thresher.

Val. Val is just faster than pw. She has a lot more movement tricks and attack options to get in than pw, and val converts assists much easier. Val can also get higher than pw, almost at vals leisure and pressure pw from above. The primary way pw has to combat this is to move backwards...,which gets her cornered, where she cant move backwards anymore.

Fortune...one of the few good matchups for pw. Pw avoids the head when its off by flying over it. When fortune is head on shes like val... But less range and speed and her air attacks arent as big or disjointed as vals.

BB... Need more info. Looks kinda 5-5 ish. Its possible whoever has the better footsies wins.

Filia... Can be kept out pretty well from what ive seen, but once filia achieves a certain spacing plus pw in a certain state, it becomes filia favor by a long shot.

That spacing/state is within range of filias iad j.hp, while pw is on the ground.
There are other really important spacings if course, but that one is the one that is threatened the most and allows filia the most options and is the one that any filia player will jump at the chance to get.


Double... J.hp is hard for pw to contend with. And the pattern of jump backwards then double jump forward and air attack us a hard one for pw to deal with, plus double has peacocks j.hk to stall out pw as well and pw cant reliably throw stingers in this matchup because of car crossup, having said that... Pw can keep double out pretty decently as well... So bith characters can find it hard to offend against the other. But give double an assist like updo or pillar and that changes dramatically and the matchup is horrid for pw.

But now pw can use beat extend so its come full circle... But without beat extend against an updo/pillar user... Good luck. And thats for most matchups.

Eliza... Like bella/parasoul as far as oppressive air to air... But now with an airdash... Terrible matchup imho.


But i think ground armor might be the solution and of course that thresher tech and beat extend...

Fukua... No experience against her at all.
 
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My view on Filia as Painwheel. At range, Painwheel has the better extending normals along with a flight cancelable projectile. Painwheel can use flight while Filia has hairball. Painwheel has trouble dealing with IAD when all of her long reaching normals have long start up times. s.MP is my favorite anti air against a Filia that spams j.hp and j.hk as it auto corrects. Filia's updo doesn't do much in neutral but makes pressure harder. As for supers, Painwheel can bait gregors but, that's a hard read. Both have amazing pressure but Filia does better up close while Painwheel needs some space.
 
This is in other places, but I'll write it up right now because I want to play, but I can't at present... so I'll talk about it in lieu of that.

Big Band (6-4):
It is a guessing game. Guess wrong... ouch. Guess right... BB cries. I think PW has the advantage. You can stay comfortably at range until you are ready to move in. When you move in, BB has to play a guessing game. Unfly is useful in this match-up. Nails xx fly from full screen let you get in easy. If they parry, they lose A-Train charge. If they A-Train (most don't), your j.mp has a better than average chance of chewing through it. Also, if they are using a-train through it... unfly and punish. Watch out for giant step when you try and throw nails as you'll lose half your life if it hits. Beat Extend is always a threat, so be cautious of it. BB is always to be respected though because one successful SSJ can lose you the round. Play it slow, and play it smart.

Cerebella (4-6):
She has something for you at every range. Excellabella, DD, horns (to a much lesser extent) make our air-to-ground risky. Her air-to-airs beat ours clean. Her ground game is scary as fuck (throws for days), and her air-to-grounds aren't nothing to ignore. If you get in on a Bella, she fucked up. That said, it isn't nearly as bad as Parasoul.
Double (5-5):
I think this is an even match-up (and probably one of my favorites as soloWheel). Double can be hard to get in on, and she makes your nails a liability with truck special. Her j.hp is our j.mp only better. All that said, she still has to respect us, and we can put pressure on her that she has a hard time dealing with. In my experience, they are very prone to air throws same as us since they are often jumping around with j.hp.

Eliza:
She's not even out, so I'm not going to comment on her yet.

Filia(5-5):
I don't know... Part of me wanted to make this 4-6. If she touches you... you're likely dead. Her IAD bullshit can be tough as hell to deal with to boot. She does have a hard time making something happen though. Similarly, if you catch her, she doesn't have a lot to deal with us. There's a better than average chance she's mashing Gregor. Burst bait test her to find out. I find spending time in the air leaves her with only a few options.

Fukua(4-6):
She's rough to deal with. Pick a place on screen, and she's got an answer for you. She wins at range easy. She wants you at mid range which is where we want to be. Flying against her is rough as she's got answers for it. Armor isn't great vs her as she's got answers for it. Up close, she's faster than us, so you don't really want to be there either. On the plus side, if you hit her... she doesn't have a lot of answers. She is short on reversals. This is still a WIP since I don't get to fight competent Fukua's too often.

Ms. Fortune(6-4):
I was pretty convinced this was 5-5 for a long time, but I'd probably give it to PW these days. MF doesn't have a great answer for our air moves... and we're spending a lot of time in the air. She can be tough to get in on due to FU but she can't really capitalize on it too easily. It isn't an easy win, but advantage is ours.

Parasoul(3-7):
This will be controversial, but I think it is one of the few legitimate 3-7 MUs in the game. The rest of this is just a copy/paste from above... Her moves beat out ours in just about every situation. She can zone you. She has good defensive options in the form of Pillar. Generally, she beats you at every range, air or ground. To win you have to bait her into making a mistake, but she has the momentum starting the match, literally. Without an assist she is scary at the start of a match. Meaning you start at a disadvantage.

Peacock(5-5):
Another one I think could go 4-6, but to be equitable, let's stay at 5-5 for now. This matchup is super unfun win or lose. Peacock can zone like a boss... obviously. There's a real chance you'll lose half your health just trying to get a hit. Rushdown Peacock is not nothing though. High damage which leads to you sitting full screen eating a ton of chip damage... again... yay. But if you get in and lock her down, advantage tips to us. She does have a reversal and she's probably mashing it, so bait and punish it. She isn't easy to get in on though, and she's harder to punish due to bomb > tele shenanigans.

Squigly(4-6):
Squig usually has issues getting in, but due to our complete lack of decent ground-to-air, she gets to own the sky and start divekick bullshit which puts the pressure on us. Air-to-air her j.hp chews through fly and armor, so air approaches are hard. A few things help though. hk.buer from the ground will catch her j.hp. Charged 3.mp works well if she tries to dive kick. Thresher can catch j.hp for a huge punish, but it isn't easy to land... they have to be doing it predictably or you're going to lose meter for naught.

Valentine(5-5):
I'm going to say 5-5, but Valentine can feel like a better PW at times. Our mobility is more reliable. Val has to land eventually which gives us a window to exploit. But she's actually more reliable. She can turn any jump into either offense or defense, so be careful until you're certain she can't give you an airdash/double jump surprise. Patience is incredibly important as you're waiting for Val to overextend. She's also very fast. She can dash > airthrow from shocking distance, so never think you're safe vs Val.

@Dime_x
Why use PW/Beat Extend over say Val/Beat? The strong bit of that line-up seems to be beat (which I would argue is the single best all-purpose assist in the game), not PW... right?
 
Spencer said:
Parasoul(3-7):
Just curious, what else with a 7-3 matchup have you played? Parasoul's got no answer for being reset in the air, and if you armor a Pillar she's dead.
I mean I know other Painwheel players also moan about it, but that might not be the matchup either. :^P
 
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Spencer said:
@Dime_x
Why use PW/Beat Extend over say Val/Beat? The strong bit of that line-up seems to be beat (which I would argue is the single best all-purpose assist in the game), not PW... right?



... I dont see much reason to use beat extend with val over say... Updo with val. Beat extend is good for pw because it turns pw into val... Basically able to convert beat extend from any kind of movement or disadvantageous situation.

Val can already do that with updo or pillar so there is no reason to use beat extend with her other than simply wanting to use BB on the team.

Also, pw does more damage than val which is one of the things that pw/BB excels in... Damage.
One of, if not pws biggest weaknesses was her lack of close range air priority and gtfo moves... Updo and pillar solved this problem... But pw couldnt convert nearly consistently enough. Beat extend solves the problem of conversion while still giving pw close range gtfo and air priority.
 
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@Mike_Z

I play Ultra badly. I'm no expert at FGs so you could definitely take me with a grain of salt. SGs is the first I've taken seriously since Tekken 3.

I do admit that it might be my own bias showing. It could be the type of MU that I'm just not getting the hang of.

Once I hit her, she's pretty reset-able on the ground of in the air. She can only guesstimate reversal with Pillar, so once I get the hit I feel a lot more comfortable (which I think is a fair thing to say in all of PWs MUs).

The hard part vs Parasoul is her superior neutral. J.hp raw often beats j.mp clean (I think it hits the hurt box in the buer, but I'd have to do some photo-editing to know for sure). Armor is imperfect because of j.lp > j.hp. Her airthrow pressure rivals PWs which is significant.

Unfly timing is really tight, though if there is a bit I'd admit weakness, it is in fleshing out unfly. As Dime pointed out, (hg)j.hp > Thresher is an option... but it is a risky one. I think the hard bit is that I don't really know what to do vs most of her normals.

This is all solo by the way. It does get better with a DP. Since grabbing FU, Parasouls seem to respect me a bit more. It stops a lot of the up-forward pressure from Parasoul which solves a lot of the problem.
 
I wasn't looking to argue anyways! I was just looking for opinions. Thank you.
 
bubbaking said:
Couldn't a cancel into Bikes or maybe even Sniper make it safe, though?
Just fly above the bikes or thresher. Sniper would be a waste of meter from Parasoul.
 
bubbaking said:
Couldn't a cancel into Bikes or maybe even Sniper make it safe, though?

Bikes isn't invul so Wheel stabs Soul and they go into the animation, and Thresher is more invul than sniper shot.
 
If she's on the ground, she absolutely has an answer in the form of pillar. It is a pseudo-guess since she has to charge it up for it to work, but good Parasouls can and will catch you with them... at least some of the time.

It also hits both sides, so aside from a dead area above it, it can shut down some reset options pretty solidly.

I think what Mike meant when he said that she is vulnerable to resets in the air is that she doesn't have a mashable air special/super so you are free to try to reset her in the air. I don't think he meant that she is free to any reset that comes from the air.
 
Since it requires holding down, would lockdown assist and overhead be effective?
 
Spencer said:
I think what Mike meant when he said that she is vulnerable to resets in the air is that she doesn't have a mashable air special/super so you are free to try to reset her in the air. I don't think he meant that she is free to any reset that comes from the air.
Well, no air super is part of it, but she also doesn't have a double jump or air dash (or flight). Those things can all get you out of some air resets. Parasoul just has no options other than try to block the right way (or jab, which sometimes works too).
 
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If you time it right, yes it seems to work. If you don't... you're going to lose your assist.

I actually don't think it is as much guess work as I first thought either.

Between that first post and this post, I've been in training. I set PW to do:
1) c.lk xx fly > j.lk
2) c.lk > c.mk xx fly > j.lk
3) c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx fly > j.lk

I can catch PW between the fly and j.lk almost 100% of the time. It is pretty freaking reactable. I'm not the best at the overhead reset, so it may just be me...

Obviously, there is less going on as well. I'm literally just sitting there waiting to try and reversal, but it is a lot less guesswork than I thought it would be going in.

It is possible to get in her deadzone as Painwheel. It is pretty tight though, but it is probably worth grinding out in lab.

Some cool tech that is probably tall character specific (only tested on Parasoul):

lk.buer > j.lp > j.lk > (rejump) 9j.mk can combo which makes canceling it into an overhead a pretty decent reset option that I think might be harder to see (at least once). The timing to get it to combo is pretty tight though.
 
Mike said parasoul was free to air resets because she IS FREE to air resets. With painwheel the simple st.mp xx fly up forward airthrow mixed up with st.mp xx fly immediate df jlk fastfall into cr. lk just destroys her and double and peacock and bella.

Out of the 4 para is the worst off by far. If you choose to throw her she has no option except to tech. Yes.... One option.

And yeah painwheels overhead j.lk from flight is very easy to see. It basically isn't even a mixup against people with decent reactions.
 
I like launcher > j.mp (x4) into either xx fly > throw or just let it fall into cross-up.

My problem isn't with Parasoul after I hit her. My problem is with hitting her. It is like Peacock. If you catch her... you're doing good.

Like I said above, the problem with Parasoul isn't her reversals. It is her phenomenal neutral. Look at the characters that give PW fits... none of them are about reversals. Everyone of them is about neutrals. And Para's neutral is top tier.
 
Use more charged 2MP against Parasoul, changes the matchup quite a bit. I promise. Well... use more 2MP in general. 2MP all the things.
 
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@Weatherbee

That might be the issue for me (I admit my difficulty with Parasoul is a me thing). I fly all the freaking time... maybe I should intentionally ground myself in this matchup.
 
Spencer said:
Like I said above, the problem with Parasoul isn't her reversals. It is her phenomenal neutral. Look at the characters that give PW fits... none of them are about reversals. Everyone of them is about neutrals. And Para's neutral is top tier.
She can't throw out 2 hits fast enough to stop your armored anything unless it's her j.HK. Git on dat.
 
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what advice would you peeps give to someone (me) who is just picking up painwheel and knows almost nothing about the character?

also is painwheel the kind of character you should use 2 assists with (neutral and DP)? i think im at the point now where playing a 3 character team would fuck up my game so bad since i vary the buttons i use for assist calls a lot depending on what im using it for.
 
Evilweevle said:
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1.what advice would you peeps give to someone (me) who is just picking up painwheel and knows almost nothing about the character?

2. is painwheel the kind of character you should use 2 assists with (neutral and DP)? i think im at the point now where playing a 3 character team would fuck up my game so bad since i vary the buttons i use for assist calls a lot depending on what im using it for.


1. Pick beat extend L assist. Painwheel might have a top 3 neutral with that assist.


2. Beat extend L is all you need except when going up against peacock. In that matchup, use h brass. Every other character besides maybe parasoul needs to get in so beat extend L is a very effective neutral assist against them.
 
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Evilweevle said:
what advice would you peeps give to someone (me) who is just picking up painwheel and knows almost nothing about the character?

also is painwheel the kind of character you should use 2 assists with (neutral and DP)? i think im at the point now where playing a 3 character team would fuck up my game so bad since i vary the buttons i use for assist calls a lot depending on what im using it for.

1. j.MP is god. Learn how to use it safely (Use it to approach, but not predictably). Learn how to convert from it.

2. 2 Assists work best. Best compromise of Damage vs. Options. Best is just give her Lockdown + DP. However, I run DP + Low Assist (L.Beat Extend + Cilia Slide) for really braindead mixups that work well against "Mashy Mash" meta.
 
I've taken L Hornet and I basically call it behind almost every reset I do now so that if they mash I get a combo, if they block I get pressure and if they miss the block I get a combo too.

It's so great watching people fail to mash out three times in a row until they realize they actually have to block and they're like "Oh god what do I do I don't want to block!"

So far it's been working out really well and I really like the L Hornet assist anyways in neutral, more than the M Hornet.
 
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