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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

I dont agree with what he's saying anymore... But pretty much all of the points that he makes are true (in a certain way) And people who espouse the sentiment that view did really dont help the problem with the learn to play comments.


Painwheels team based game has been incredibuffed. Her point play has stayed largely the same. Her primary point buff has been flight canceled stingers.... A great buff but one that is hard/ impossible to make use of as a solo since people will rush painwheel down when she has no threat of an AA assist.


But the sentiment that he should "just shut up" is just wrong. Painwheel was underpowered going into this game. Had we just shut up, we (probably) wouldnt have the buffs that we do. And even after all these buffs , most people STILL consider her the weakest character in the game.

Idk about anyone else, but to me THAT is telling.

Idk but i just find the attitude to silence people, really, really fuckign disturbing, ESPECIALLY on a forum FOR discussing ideas. Even shitty stupid ideas deserve to be written out here imho (and dually ignored if they are terrible ideas) but the call for silence? Disturbing. This isnt pre 90's soviet Russia.

I mean if you cant stand his opinion... Maybe take your own advices and get a thicker skin? This is America. He has a right to his opinions.

The correct way to address him is like so:

" @Spencer

Well dude, much of what you say is true in some facets, but mostly you just need to get better or change your team to include assists, we all know that mike tried to balance the game for solo play, but for painwheel it hasn't happened yet, and it might not ever since balancing her for solo play will most likely result in a boring homogenization of the character, or will result in her being oppressively overpowered in certain matchups... Perhaps many matchups.

So at this point in time your only choice is to get really gud to make up for her inherent faults, yourself, or add characters onto your team to do it. Complaining about her at this point after she has already been buffed over and over again is a fruitless endeavor even if you are correct in some aspects of what you are saying"




Or some such.

And if after all that he still "complains" (oh the horror... Whatever shall we do) there is an ignore button. So that your virgin eyes never again have to look upon the most unsightly complaint ridden prose of said "disgraceful" poster.


Spencer, you should take what i say to heart. I agree and dont agree with what you say, but seriously, as has been suggested many, many,many times before, you really should just get an assist if solo pw is bothering you this much/you really feel she is this weak.

Case in point, look at how much stronger peacock is on a team with assists as compared to a solo.

Painwheel is the same way dude :)
 
He said "I'm certain that if some of you spent less time blaming PW's "lack of options" for your poor play and more time discovering how to make full use of what she can do, you would be a lot better."

Which ultimately says nothing about PWs difficulty, tier ranking, etc. I was commenting on that. I play Painwheel, so I've clearly accepted that she plays how she plays or whatever you mean by that, but that doesn't have anything to do with our ability (or desire) to have a balance discussion.

Oh, and I just found this touching bit of irony, View's last post before that one was talking about how PW is the worst character in the game and will continue to be so after Big Band is released (though admittedly, he thinks "worst in SG" is meaningless)... so at the very least we are on some equal footing with this conversation. The only difference is he thinks her being bad is within tolerable limits and I don't.

@Dime
I'm not really asking for buffs, nor am I expecting anything to come from this discussion. This is just a video game forum and a place I go to enjoy the hobby a bit more. That said, I absolutely cannot stand the borderline double speak that occurs when someone mentions a balance issue. People will say something like "PW is the weakest character in the game" and "Balance is perfect" in the same sentence.

For that reason I really do appreciate (some) of the posts (For example, I thought Elda's contribution was incredibly positive. Some of Konkrete's were as well. Plus, hell... I've got an argumentative personality and this is pretty cathartic.
 
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He can keep his opinion, lol. He's also free to ignore everybody's advice, stick to solo PW and continue to make the same complaints about solo PW over and over...and over again. These forums seem to be more for complaints and less for discussing what the characters can currently do and how to make the most of those tools, anyway.

It's less about saying "shut up" and more "ok, she's weak in xyz area. Now how about you make the most of her best areas". But yeah, easier to complain than to make the most of what you have, so w.e.

Edit: I went ahead and ignored him earlier today already. I'm fine with complaints and trying to help, but to go through the same cycle so many times for the same player, who refuses to listen? No thanks.
 
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Spencer said:
It is beside the point.

No one here is saying that the reason I suck is because of the character. When I stay up on it, I'm really not a bad player. You're not saying you are bad or good. He has zero idea how any of us play to be frank.

Not to mention that it is off topic. The quality of the player does not necessarily reflect the quality of the character. There are very good Dan, Hakan, El Fuerte, etc. players. That doesn't mean that Dan is all the sudden a better pick than Sagat.

The "learn to play" mantra is often an exercise in trying to shut down any legitimate criticism. Rogue stunlocked you? L2P. Toss too strong early game? L2P. *Pick a game and a balance issue*? L2P.

We should l2p together. We both play solo PW.
It could be interesting to learn from each other and figure out what we need to work on.

Think about it. We could be like Wolverine and Sabretooth.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
We should l2p together. We both play solo PW.
It could be interesting to learn from each other and figure out what we need to work on.

Think about it. We could be like Wolverine and Sabretooth.

Like Carnage and Venom?

@View619
So we shouldn't discuss general things about Painwheel in the general discussion thread if they are negative things?

And complaining about complaining just fills up the thread with more complaining.

And complaining/bitching/etc. doesn't mean shit all about what one is currently doing to fill a weakness. That's the strawman you built.

Sometimes I like to play Skullgirls. Sometimes I like to log into Skullheart while at work or on the couch. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
@Spencer

It sounds to me like you have more of a problem with how people view your points than you have with the character painwheel.

As has been shown to you many times across many rather rude posts, people in this forum dont want to hear this stuff for whatever reason.


If you want to complain about painwheel in a pity party fashion... You can pm me :) i will listen. I know that the struggles of a solo painwheel can evoke the need for blowing off steam.
But the folks in here dont seem to want to be sociable like that. Seriously, you should have realized the need to give this topic up, a few posts ago. I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm just saying that nothing really productive can come of this trap to try and make people admit things that they dont want to admit/are in denial of/ are just seriously annoyed by your attempts to make painwheel feel weak. And the reason is very easy to understand:


Complaining about a character being bad doesnt make you a better player. And the people in here want to be better players so they are sucking it up and trying to train painwheels badnesses out of their own play.

And they are correct. Complaining doesnt make stronger players, coming up with solutions and implementing them, no matter how hard they are to implement, is what makes stronger players.
 
Dime_x said:
...

I agree actually. But the other side is equally as true. Complaining about a character being bad doesn't make one a worse player (as this thread has devolved into).

Similarly, how are we to even address her weaknesses when the moment one is brought up, we are told to l2p. There is legitimately good advice in this thread, and there could have been more, but instead what happened is that StripeyBoosh mentioned some pros and cons, and I was immediately jumped on for simply saying that some of those cons are in fact true.
 
Yes, complaining about a character being bad doesnt necessarily make a player... Worse. But it certainly helps them to not get better. This is because of the good old option select "yeah, but i lost because its a shitty matchup" or "i lost because the character that i selected sucks" and yet when you win you can say that you were the better player... Win/win whether you actually win or not.

It allows an excuse that is (way to convenient) to be conducive to getting better. This is not to say that i or even other posters that post here have never had these thoughts or that they are not still having these thoughts... Its to say that having those thoughts are COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. They simply dont make you BETTER. Sure they may not make you worse, but maintaining strength is the last thought that should be on anyone's mind who has not yet reached the top. GETTING BETTER, is the only thing that should be being strived for from many peoples perspectives.

Imagine duckator thinking that a set or game that he lost to dekillsage is because bellas priority is just overpowered... He actually DID lose a set to dekillsage awhile back. In that set he rushed dekillsage down, pressed attack buttons with val, and got murdered by bellas invulnerable assists and invincible hitbox airnormals.

He didnt complain to himself that bellas priority was op, he made the adjustment and the next set that they played, in the same tournament, he pressed almost no attacking buttons against sage. He just called his invincible assists and protected them on block with vals fireball, or converted them on hit into full combo.

But the strategy was clear, he couldn't handle bellas invincibles and assists with val, so he let his assist do ALL the fighting for him.


Just one example of our best player using what makes him the best, the best:

Adapting to other peoples strategies and doing whatever it takes to beat those strategies (such as you know picking one of the best teams in the game that can be played many different ways) and using different strategies for different opponents/teams.

Painwheel can do the same thing. Its just ALOT HARDER to do than it is with a team or some other characters... But thats life.


And I'm rambling and off subject somehow. I'm tired, going back to sleep, big day tomorrow at work, lots of heavy lifting and running around...
 
@Mike_Z, frame data for moves starting from PW's flight show with startup from the attack + frames you were flying

Don't know if it's intentional, but it definitely feels weird
 
For painwheel I found the perfect follow up to a Buer Thresher way high in the air which is to fly then unfly with j.MP! it is the shit!
 
CaioLugon said:
@Mike_Z, frame data for moves starting from PW's flight show with startup from the attack + frames you were flying

Don't know if it's intentional, but it definitely feels weird
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH well that's definitely not useful.
 
bubbaking said:
Is there a way to record footage of gameplay without a video capture device? Is there a feature that I somehow missed?
You need to use Xsplit, OpenBroadcastSoftware, FRAPS or the NVidia Experience tools. This only works on PC, of course.

Mike_Z said:
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH well that's definitely not useful.

<_<

I hope that's sarcasm. :I
 
He proved that Painwheel is good enough to win a stacked major tournament, which means she's "good enough".
Unless you're going with "Taluda is leaps and bounds beyond everyone else, the Kuroda of SG", it's a flat "PWs blaming their losses on character choice are pretty lost"
 
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From my understanding (feel free to correct me), painwheel is "bad" because she lacks a viable reversal option, has poor meter gain and air dashing is better than flight for the most part. But her pressure is on par with the "best" characters, so that coupled with good defense and meter management to circunvent the characters weakness, you can still succeed.
 
Erreip199 said:
From my understanding (feel free to correct me), painwheel is "bad" because she lacks a viable reversal option, has poor meter gain and air dashing is better than flight for the most part. But her pressure is on par with the "best" characters, so that coupled with good defense and meter management to circunvent the characters weakness, you can still succeed.


Basically yes, In a nutshell painwheels overwhelming problem is that shes slow. The whole not having a reversal thing isnt a huge deal. Its more of painwheels inability to convert assist confirms when shes was made to block, and her inability to really be able to handle upclose pressure via her normals... They are all slow and her jump/dash back are slow as well, and when coupled with no reversal makes her kinda bad on the defensive end. So the thing to do with her is to play neutral like you cant block anything cause once you you are kinda fucked. The problem is that many other characters have an easier time doing that... Cause they are faster and can use double jumps and runs and airdashes. Painwheel has none of those and that the primary weakness of the character... Shes just very slow and has little to nothing to make up for it.
 
@IsaVulpes

You're right. My view on PW is that on a team, her weaknesses are much more covered and she is viable (if a tad uphill at least at first)

I think the general PW complaints come from solo PW (you won't see that winning a tournament any time soon). I think you'll also find that PW is a rough character to start with. She has some strengths that fast turn into weaknesses with a bad choice in spacing, timing, etc. That isn't to say that she is weak, but rather that you've got to be in it for the long haul to make her work. People instead gravitate naturally to the path of least resistance (do you count how many Fukuas were in that damn tournament?), and so PW will always be seen as UP.

That said, don't under estimate how good Elda is. I play vs him a fair amount. He is scary good. He knows PWs ins and outs better than most know their character. He can confirm off of anything.

There are also cases of low tier characters winning tournaments (the Hakkan comeback comes to mind) which doesn't make them less UP.

In any case, I'm glad Elda won it. He deserved that for sure. He puts in an ungodly amount of work to be good.
 
I have noticed a little bit of what Dime mentions about blocking.
In contrast, getting pushblocked can shut her down, which makes me wonder if she isn't your typical block -> counter character.
(Like maybe that's not how you're suppose to fight with her if that makes sense?)

It's kind of her kryptonite to be defensive in that direct manner (blocking).
Especially at more escalated play where you can find yourself stuck trying to block cross-mixups over and over again which will inevitably lead to you dropping the block string without an available counter to bail you out. Of course, deathcrawl is an option but it gets tricky with assists, baiting etc.

I've personally found myself in situations where it was a matter of momentum that tipped the scales in my favor.
Sure, this is common with all of the characters I'm sure.
But it almost feels like momentum helps her capitalize more than the others in some strange way.

I've also found that a remedy for the lack of speed is sometimes to take shots in the dark with your reads and follow through.
Which I think it's safe to say higher level players generally can make good reads somewhat often.
So they probably would do well to overcome her "faults."
(I can't by the way. Heck I almost always lose to other Painwheel players despite knowing what they are up to.)

I will say while she is slow, Painwheel is all things considered "good enough" as IsaVulpes said.
However Taluda is quite strong in game, which naturally helps.
But that just goes to show she can be used to compete at higher levels and come out on top.

And solo what it comes down to is I'm not good enough with her, and that's not such a big deal.
I guess after awhile complaining just gets old, and I think I'm satisfied with the improvements I've made over time.
 
I'm kinda new here so I probably don't know much, but I've been playing as PW since day 1 of SG. It really feels to me like push-blocking nullifies nearly all of her pressure game. Whenever I get push-blocked, I have to fly back in to continue pressure, allowing the opponent to get out or counter. Even if I do get back in, it's not really a mix-up. I can't do a left-right mix-up, and I can't go for a high-low either. The worst part is that when I fly-cancel early in anticipation of a push-block, my opponent simply push-blocks AFTER the fact and I go backwards anyway. The only way I've found to get around this is to call a lock-down assist early or catch the jump out with an air grab.

I was hoping to catch some advice here, but upon skipping to the end of this thread, lo and behold, I find the same problems I was hoping to solve being complained about.

To kinda contribute, I will say that it seems easier to pressure and mix up when I fly-cancel my aerials to go for a left-right/grab mix-up, since those seem harder to push. The moment I land on the ground and start trying to go for 'conventional pressure', I end up being pushed into oblivion, even if I try to fly early.

Edit: This is MU-specific, but I also have a TON of trouble dealing with Filia's Updo assist. I try to bait it, but my opponent just reacts to me coming in and it hits me out of my pressure and gives him a full combo. Fly-cancelling early doesn't save me either. For the moment, I've fallen to letting my assists fight for me most of the time, but I'm sure I'm not aware of all my options. Any ideas?
 
If you're worried about push block, use c.mp and f.hk in your block strings, and Flight into j.hk. Also, s.lp into armor charge to bait push blocks or just grabbing a blocking opponent help too. Sure, you can talk about damage scaling, but you can't really have both in one meter-less move can you?
 
Painwheel is probably the best or maybe second best behind Squigly at baiting pushblock in the game.

If your PW pressure is linear, you will get pushed back and PW sucks in that position. But if you learn to bait pushblock with PW, you will probably be opening people up much easier.
 
Tomo009 said:
Painwheel is probably the best or maybe second best behind Squigly at baiting pushblock in the game.

If your PW pressure is linear, you will get pushed back and PW sucks in that position. But if you learn to bait pushblock with PW, you will probably be opening people up much easier.
How would you bait pushblock as Squigly?
 
mcpeanuts said:
How would you bait pushblock as Squigly?
cancelling multi hit moves, 2LK slight delay 2MK, jump in j.MK cancel into j.HK while low, first hit of 2HP xx silver chord (obviously risky), stancel pretty much anything into 2MK.
 
Spencer said:
@IsaVulpes

You're right. My view on PW is that on a team, her weaknesses are much more covered and she is viable (if a tad uphill at least at first)

I think the general PW complaints come from solo PW (you won't see that winning a tournament any time soon).
We wouldn't see PW on a team winning tournaments if Taluda sat on Skullheart complaining about her all day instead of practicing. She's a good character.
 
Mr Peck said:
We wouldn't see PW on a team winning tournaments if Taluda sat on Skullheart complaining about her all day instead of practicing. She's a good character.

Oh this old thing again.

They aren't mutually exclusive. You can play (and even play well) and still post on the forum.

Here are a couple of a widely accepted things:

Solo is worse than team.
PW is relatively worse than most of the cast.

So... it stands to reason that solo PW is going to be a tough journey (again, relative to most of the cast).

Now take your own advice, want to help solo PW everywhere? Get off your high horse, step down from the soapbox, and soften the forum criticism. Then post a solo PW v (good) Parasoul video for us to learn from.
 
For what it's worth, you probably spend much more time than me on skullheart and much less time than me learning matchups and practicing against solid players. Anyway, I don't play solo Painwheel and I'm not an expert with the character but sure, I can try to record that for you once I'm good enough. Does the Parasoul have to be a solo too? Does she have to be part of a team? If so, which assists should she use? Can you list every Parasoul player that counts as 'good' in your eyes so I don't accidentally not spoonfeed you hard enough?
 
Possibly, but for what it's worth. I have a wife with whom I hang out, a job, and full-time school. So, the only Skullgirls I can get in while watching TV with the wife, during downtimes at work, or during breaks between classes is Skullheart.

I've also put in about 200 hours (not counting my brief xBox time) most of which (see 95% or more) has been spent on solo PW. While for some, that is a fraction of time spent in game (or on a character), it is also not nothing.

Finally, you don't have to spoonfeed anyone anything. I don't really care. I was just pointing out that instead of coming on the internet to pretend that you are taking the high road by bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning, you can contribute. My gripe is that I'm tired of being contradicted or condescended to by people who don't even play the character they are defending.
 
What I find funny is that every Painwheel main on here has basically reached the consensus a while ago that PW is probably one of if not the worst character in the game, but it's a really balanced game so she's still totally viable and she's not super bad or anything, but some matchups are uphill. But then Taluda wins a major with her and suddenly people come out of the woodwork to tell PW mains "See? Painwheel may not be the best character but she's still totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!"

We know. We've been saying it for a pretty long time.
 
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