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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

What are some good Beginner Combos here? I can't find a good newbie guide for this character, I can only find advanced or intermediate guides.
 
Funkermonster said:
What are some good Beginner Combos here? I can't find a good newbie guide for this character, I can only find advanced or intermediate guides.

You can essentially break down the different sections of the intermediate/advanced combos into smaller chunks and end them with a super create what I'd call beginner combos.
This would be practical in the sense that you can slowly advance to longer strings as you get more comfortable with doing PWs combos.

That said if you want help I'd be happy to help you out sometime in online training mode. Feel free to add me on steam!
 
RanagastDB said:
What I find funny is that every Painwheel main on here has basically reached the consensus a while ago that PW is probably one of if not the worst character in the game, but it's a really balanced game so she's still totally viable and she's not super bad or anything, but some matchups are uphill. But then Taluda wins a major with her and suddenly people come out of the woodwork to tell PW mains "See? Painwheel may not be the best character but she's still totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!"

We know. We've been saying it for a pretty long time.

See, PW is totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!

=)

Seriously though, I think she's better than Squiggly at least. Also, I can see her beating Band easily if you don't focus on flying all the time.
 
View619 said:
See, PW is totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!

=)

Seriously though, I think she's better than Squiggly at least. Also, I can see her beating Band easily if you don't focus on flying all the time.

But how would you approach him safely? I'm no expert, but what I do know Painwheel can't approach very well without flying, and she needs an assist to get good approaches as well. You could try using Hatred Guard j.HP or maybe something else, but that is incredibly unsafe and probably not too reliable. Even if you do fly with an assist, she is still very easy to anti air (and lacks a decent anti-air herself) and Band's Beat Extend, cr.mk, cr.hk, and Take the A' Train can still give hell.

Not to object that painwheel is viable, but to beat Big Band? Especially with flying a lot? I wholeheartedly disagree.
 
BB is easy if you bait the mash (we all know it is coming). I also like to fly a bit heavy early and then stick to the ground. You can get him to throw out A-Train which is hugely punishable. But yeah, as a rule, stay grounded.

If he is solo, the only real pressure is if you fuck up, you're going to take a lot of damage (but that is the case for any character).

I'd say the match up is pretty decently in PWs favor.

Now a BB assist (especially A-Train or DP) on the other hand? That makes everything harder, less fun, and more annoying.
 
View619 said:
See, PW is totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!

=)

I can see her beating Band easily if you don't focus on flying all the time.
Every time there's a Big Band in someone's team I do Painwheel's combos on Big Band and he goes down easily.
 
@Funkermonster

Big band is pretty slow at max range. You can dash in super easily. The only thing you have to watch out for is Giant Step which you can react to (chicken block).
 
View619 said:
See, PW is totally viable and you guys need to understand that and put in the work!

=)

Seriously though, I think she's better than Squiggly at least. Also, I can see her beating Band easily if you don't focus on flying all the time.
I think America underrates Squigly.

I think Painwheel can play pretty effectively in the BB matchup. PW can actually zone him out and force him to make stupid risks, A train doesn't reach everywhere on the screen. It's a bait game and PW can actually play the matchup safer imo.
 
Tomo009 said:
I think America underrates Squigly.

I think Painwheel can play pretty effectively in the BB matchup. PW can actually zone him out and force him to make stupid risks, A train doesn't reach everywhere on the screen. It's a bait game and PW can actually play the matchup safer imo.

If its zoning you're talking about, then Giant Step says hello. Painwheel's zoning is a lot slower than Peacock's unless you use that Hatred Guard Super.

Even if it works, couldn't Band just use his Parry? Charging up the Thorns isn't a good idea since Giant Step will knock you down already, and an uncharged one shouldn't deal much damage either.
 
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Tomo009 said:
I think America underrates Squigly.

I think Painwheel can play pretty effectively in the BB matchup. PW can actually zone him out and force him to make stupid risks, A train doesn't reach everywhere on the screen. It's a bait game and PW can actually play the matchup safer imo.

I was thinking more along the lines of HG shutting down Giant Step and Brass completely, with the option to cancel it into projectile xx Flight even during charge and move in behind it. Literally HG s.hp when you think he'll do anything on the ground. Unless Giant Step's long range effect also breaks armor?

I don't see what Squiggly has against PW specifically besides SBO and j.hp, where j.hp loses to HK Buer and SBO needs meter and a PW in the air who doesn't Unfly in time to avoid it. Her mix-up game is great, but I don't see what she has at neutral without meter and a charge.
 
WrestlerGuile said:
Painwheel's zoning is too slow though, unless you Hatred Guard.
Funkermonster said:
If its zoning you're talking about, then Giant Step says hello. Painwheel's zoning is a lot slower than Peacock's unless you use that Hatred Guard Super.

Even if it works, couldn't Band just use his Parry? Charging up the Thorns isn't a good idea since Giant Step will knock you down already, and an uncharged one shouldn't deal much damage either.

Huh? I mean sit in BB's dead zone which is in the air at full screen. Giant Step isn't going to do anything to that. She can drop to the ground and throw out single nails every now and then to be annoying. BB would be forced to move in.

EDIT: I detect a hint of zoning = throwing fireballs from full screen from you 2.

Zoning means threatening space, forcing your opponent to not want to occupy said space, moving them into a different position which you can predict.

View619 said:
I was thinking more along the lines of HG shutting down Giant Step and Brass completely, with the option to cancel it into projectile xx Flight even during charge. Literally HG s.hp when you think he'll do anything on the ground. Unless Giant Step's long range effect also breaks armor?

I don't see what Squiggly has against PW specifically besides SBO and j.hp, where j.hp loses to HK Buer and SBO needs meter and a PW in the air who doesn't Unfly in time to avoid it. Her mix-up game is great, but I don't see what she has at neutral without meter and a charge.

Yeah, between armour on the ground and flying at full screen, I think Painwheel can pretty effectively make BB approach her on her terms. BB is one character PW can easily stay above, as well, so I think it is actually probably a pretty good matchup for her. In fact unfly probably helps her the most in this matchup to avoid A-trains.
 
I'm not to sure Painwheel even beats BB anymore. What seemed like a bad matchup at first seems more like evenish or better in bands favor:

His jump is ridiculous. Its super fast. And him mixing his jumps up with j.mk and j.lk just for pressure (not necessarily to hitconfirm) causes problems. The theres his AA FULLSCREEN rush punch. So dont fly to much... But then you have to deal with him jumpjng and "flying" while you are grounded.

The only thing that painwheel really has definitely in her favor in this matchup is that her j.mp breaks his brass armor... Which is good until he parries the j.mp and cancels into beat extend... Which is baitable... But that is also via not using pws best moves. As far as bait the super... Only against mashers. A good BB. I'm not saying its in BB favor necessarily... But he has a lot of tools for dealing with painwheel.
 
View619 said:
I was thinking more along the lines of HG shutting down Giant Step and Brass completely, with the option to cancel it into projectile xx Flight even during charge. Literally HG s.hp and I don't see what he can do to it except try to approach from the air or something.

1. Parry it
2. Normal Throw her out of it
3. Cr.LP 6 hits
4. Heavy or Medium Brass Knuckles
5. Super
6. Just Block it.

But it looks like we're transforming this into a matchup thread! Couldn't we take it to the actual MU thread instead?
 
Funkermonster said:
1. Parry it
2. Normal Throw her out of it
3. Cr.LP 6 hits
4. Heavy or Medium Brass Knuckles
5. Super
6. Just Block it.

But it looks like we're transforming this into a matchup thread! Couldn't we take it to the actual MU thread instead?

This is clearly from a distance where he would use Brass or Giant Step, not in Painwheel's face. Maybe I should stop assuming that everybody is on the same page and point these things out?

Unless Heavy or Medium Brass break armour (?), none of those are going to matter. Brass x Super against it means you can absorb another hit (HG s.hp has two hits of armour) and then counter super, which is still bad for him. Basically that, plus throwing nails to be annoying\fly in behind to start pressure and deal chip (this gives you the life lead) and Flight means you control the match, imo.

Giant Step beats projectiles sure...but it can also be baited and punished. So, it's not like he can just Giant Step for free either.

Also, what's the problem with bringing up PW strengths in specific match-ups in a thread with activity? Should we go to the MU thread to watch it die? This is for general discussion, right?
 
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Dime_x said:
I'm not to sure Painwheel even beats BB anymore. What seemed like a bad matchup at first seems more like evenish or better in bands favor:

His jump is ridiculous. Its super fast. And him mixing his jumps up with j.mk and j.lk just for pressure (not necessarily to hitconfirm) causes problems. The theres his AA FULLSCREEN rush punch. So dont fly to much... But then you have to deal with him jumpjng and "flying" while you are grounded.

The only thing that painwheel really has definitely in her favor in this matchup is that her j.mp breaks his brass armor... Which is good until he parries the j.mp and cancels into beat extend... Which is baitable... But that is also via not using pws best moves. As far as bait the super... Only against mashers. A good BB. I'm not saying its in BB favor necessarily... But he has a lot of tools for dealing with painwheel.
Dime, you overestimate the length of A-train, it is about 2/3 the screen. Painwheel is actually probably the hardest character to nab with it unless you use it like Excellebella (ie. as an anti-jump, not an anti-air)

Painwheel at fullscreen is a massive threat to BB. This is actually a matchup PW wants to and can play very patiently. BB's tools are all about forcing the opponent to make a decision and put themselves in a risky place, PW, between fullscreen flight and grounded armour NEGATES that almost entirely.

BB's jump pressure is pretty nuts, yeah, it is pretty similar to Squigly's in fact. That is why you don't want to let him get above you in this matchups, which I don't think is too much of an ask, BB struggles to attain that space unless the PW is flying at him all the time trying to pressure him.

EDIT: I want to stress how incredibly useless BB's beat extend is in this matchup, if any PW is having trouble with it, you should go into slow mo training mode and inspect the hitbox/invinicbility properties of it, it basically hits in all the places PW doesn't want to be in the first place. All of PW's effective zones are hitbox free.
 
Beat extend is tough on me on occasion when I predictably jump in. It can also make resets risky (but let's face it... BB is mashing anyway which makes any reset vs him dangerous. My favorite reset lately is to stop attacking and block).
 
Beat Extend isn't invincible during the anti air portion.

Beat Extend L would be pretty good against grounded flight cancel pressure, but from the air, a well spaced j.MP would probably still win.
 
Spencer said:
Beat extend is tough on me on occasion when I predictably jump in. It can also make resets risky (but let's face it... BB is mashing anyway which makes any reset vs him dangerous. My favorite reset lately is to stop attacking and block).

Easiest way to find out if he's mashing is a burst bait set-up. Worst case scenario is you get knocked back, but you get information on your opponent and keep the damage dealt plus meter gained from the combo before the burst. Best case is more damage.
 
Tomo009 said:
Dime, you overestimate the length of A-train, it is about 2/3 the screen. Painwheel is actually probably the hardest character to nab with it unless you use it like Excellebella (ie. as an anti-jump, not an anti-air)

Painwheel at fullscreen is a massive threat to BB. This is actually a matchup PW wants to and can play very patiently. BB's tools are all about forcing the opponent to make a decision and put themselves in a risky place, PW, between fullscreen flight and grounded armour NEGATES that almost entirely.

BB's jump pressure is pretty nuts, yeah, it is pretty similar to Squigly's in fact. That is why you don't want to let him get above you in this matchups, which I don't think is too much of an ask, BB struggles to attain that space unless the PW is flying at him all the time trying to pressure him.

EDIT: I want to stress how incredibly useless BB's beat extend is in this matchup, if any PW is having trouble with it, you should go into slow mo training mode and inspect the hitbox/invinicbility properties of it, it basically hits in all the places PW doesn't want to be in the first place. All of PW's effective zones are hitbox free.


I could be wrong.. I'm not going to bother arguing the point when i have such little matchup exoerience against BB. However, parry first hit of j.hk cancel into beat extend full combo is a thing that happened to my pw... It took me by surprise as well cause on paper in theory fighter land i was told that it doesnt work cause beat extend has no invincibility for AA. Funny how the actual game doesnt really care whats written in forums. I'm not trying to be snarky, just yeah... It was a thing.
 
Dime_x said:
I could be wrong.. I'm not going to bother arguing the point when i have such little matchup exoerience against BB. However, parry first hit of j.hk cancel into beat extend full combo is a thing that happened to my pw... It took me by surprise as well cause on paper in theory fighter land i was told that it doesnt work cause beat extend has no invincibility for AA. Funny how the actual game doesnt really care whats written in forums. I'm not trying to be snarky, just yeah... It was a thing.
If you do it low, LP beat extend does have a hitbox up to a bit below BB's head. So if CM parried you, yes you probably fell low enough into it. Thresher probably would have won in that scenario I think, after the parry, edit: but that is a fast reaction.
 
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painwheel isn't that good
like she's good enough if you want to put in over twice the amount of work everyone else does.
I still want her to have some of the things taken away from her (level 2 install hitstop, corner combo b4 the beur changes to her flight idk wtf mike did)

use fiber assist, an actual dp assist pw can convert off of
 
Tomo009 said:
If you do it low, LP beat extend does have a hitbox up to a bit below BB's head. So if CM parried you, yes you probably fell low enough into it. Thresher probably would have won in that scenario I think.


So, like,have actual timing and dont just throw out the AA early and it will stuff jumpins...

If the hitbox is just a bit below BB head that means the hitbox is rather high since BB is gigantic. That also means it will AA against iad pressure low flight cancel pressure and it will AA if BB does low profile move to get low and have the opponent get lower and then cancel into beat extend. Doesnt seem like a wack AA to me when it goes into full combo at just below BB head height. As a reference painwheels st.mk is a fantastic AA that has no invincibility and doesnt hit as high as Just below BB head (as I'm imagining it) and mos disconcertingly, doesnt go into full combo from its highest priority spacing.


I understand what you say about BB. But i think beat extend isnt as bad as you are making it out to be. Requires a read and good spacing is pretty much it... Not a go to AA but a high risk high reward one that can definitely work in the right applications.
 
View619 said:
I don't see what Squiggly has against PW specifically besides SBO and j.hp, where j.hp loses to HK Buer and SBO needs meter and a PW in the air who doesn't Unfly in time to avoid it. Her mix-up game is great, but I don't see what she has at neutral without meter and a charge.
What does "PW has a good matchup against Squigly" have to do with "PW is a better character than Squigly", though?
 
PW 5MK puts her low though and it sticks far in front of her.

LP Beat extend is fantastic against IAD pressure, that is pretty much it's purpose I believe. Low profiling isn't exactly easy because BB is big even crouching. Also it has to be noted that LP beat extend has a vulnerable frame before ANY invincibility, so if you actually could low profile before it, you would still get hit.

Parry is the best way to use it in that situation. CM's parry > beat extend is fantastic for multi hit moves especially.


My main point about the matchup is that BB struggles at full screen range, A train doesn't reach that far so there is a big empty space that BB cannot touch until he runs forward.
 
dekillsage said:
painwheel isn't that good
like she's good enough if you want to put in over twice the amount of work everyone else does.
I still want her to have some of the things taken away from her (level 2 install hitstop, corner combo b4 the beur changes to her flight idk wtf mike did)

use fiber assist, an actual dp assist pw can convert off of


She still does like 8.5k in the corner for one meter with the Buer nerf, over 9k with an assist, so I don't really think that's an issue. Also, how difficult is it to just convert with LK Buer off of Updo, Pillar and Butt?
 
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View619 said:
She still does like 8.5k in the corner with the Buer nerf, over 9k with an assist, so I don't really think that's an issue. Also, how difficult is it to just convert with LK Buer off of Updo, Pillar and Butt?

pretty hard when you're flying I'd imagine. From what I've seen its been updo landing but painwheel not being able to convert on reaction reliably. Upper seems easier, plus its rly an amazing assist that isn't used because people can't convert off it, unlike painwheeeeeel

and I mean if the damage is close to as good or similar why even change it? never really saw the point, and doesn't it affect her ability to land multiple air supers which wasn't even that good anyways?
 
dekillsage said:
pretty hard when you're flying I'd imagine. From what I've seen its been updo landing but painwheel not being able to convert on reaction reliably. Upper seems easier, plus its rly an amazing assist that isn't used because people can't convert off it, unlike painwheeeeeel

and I mean if the damage is close to as good or similar why even change it? never really saw the point, and doesn't it affect her ability to land multiple air supers which wasn't even that good anyways?

Well, if it's converting after landing from Flight, then I understand. I thought you meant from a defensive position, which is where OTG into LK Buer would work. Also, I've seen players convert off of Updo and Pillar during Flight with j.hk (after s.hk, Flight + AA Assist cross-ups) so there may not be an issue there.

I think Mike nerfed the Buer fly cancels to drop her meter-less damage, really. I believe she could get around 8k meter-less before, even with current undizzy (check Krackatoa's old stuff). It was never really for multiple air supers, I don't think anybody does that. =/
 
Pretty sure that hatred install > the rest of your meter on threshers > buer loops was REALLY good though.
 
dekillsage said:
like she's good enough if you want to put in over twice the amount of work everyone else does.

I think this sums up my feelings entirely.

@View619
I think my problem with the damage nerf (which I felt was needed) is that what we received in compensation was unfly which is... underwhelming. Admittedly, I need to play around with it more, but it hasn't really simplified any of my match ups thus far.

And 8.5, isn't that the barrier for entry for a corner combo? Looking at other threads that seems smack dab middle of the road average. Hell, Peacock and Fukua can exceed that or almost hit that (respectively) as a bnb. At best, she's now on the high end of average, right?

A far cry from the 10k days of yore.
 
What about painwheel recovering her Buer fly cancels during Hatred Install, so it's not meter-less damage anymore and to use 2 or 3 meters to get a full combo and true damage out of a character that really needs it.
 
View619 said:
I think Mike nerfed the Buer fly cancels to drop her meter-less damage, really. I believe she could get around 8k meter-less before, even with current undizzy (check Krackatoa's old stuff). It was never really for multiple air supers, I don't think anybody does that. =/

Painwheels problem was that she couldn't get another full series after her super, something people like bella, filia and fortune(in the past) could do making landing 2 supers really good. I dunno. And meter less damage being up to 8k can I see a video on it? I wasn't aware, but even then other characters like bella can get somewhat close to that, and via spending bar both bella and painwheel would get similar damage which I feel was fine? dunno wut im even saying anymore
 
dekillsage said:
Painwheels problem was that she couldn't get another full series after her super, something people like bella, filia and fortune(in the past) could do making landing 2 supers really good. I dunno. And meter less damage being up to 8k can I see a video on it? I wasn't aware, but even then other characters like bella can get somewhat close to that, and via spending bar both bella and painwheel would get similar damage which I feel was fine? dunno wut im even saying anymore


("I dont see bella doing damage as a problem since shes got the worst neutral of anyone"
Mike z.)

In a pm to me when i was asking for clarification since i always thought basically the same thing you just said up there. And not to mention the fact that bella also makes ridiculous amounts of meter and pw doesnt.

The reason why pw meter gain is so low is because she cancels into specials that either give NO METER (fly) or give very bad meter (buer) his reasoning for buer giving terrible meter was because "it is so easy to combo out of" whereas when i asked about bellas meter gain being super high on her specials even though they are pretty much all extrememly easy to combo out of as well... I got no answer.

My theory is that mike is suffering from PTSD after playing team low tier z against magneto sentinel storm and getting terrorised, therefor since pw has flight he sees her as being playable like how mvc2 mags is now being played (just slower)... Lots of flight cancels into overheads and and wiffed airthrows into land throw etc etc etc. Ie he's thinking long term for pw balance and in his mind, its not that she sucks... Its that WE suck. Even though he sucks with her as well. He could be right but making painwheel into something more than midtier is basically going to be an execution nightmare which is why it hasn't happened yet and is why she isnt winning yet. Painwheel players are basically going to have to eventually become a version of magic mans armor and fly canceling, taludas assist confirms and kracks/magicmans combos and low assist with fly stuff.


Once we see a player player put all that together... Then we might actually see how good painwheel is. But why put in all that work when you can just val plus updo? Masochism is my guess. I do like an uphill battle myself. But i prefer them when it isnt my character holding me back.
 

Krack's generic corner combo (from his guide, I think I recall reading he optimized it further?) puts him at 8057 before his deathcrawl (which bumps him up to 9k).

Of course, as you point out... there are certainly others with great damage output.

Here is a 1 meter Peacock combo for over 9k from anywhere (I admittedly don't know how practical it is). @2:35

I think Tomo has an anywhere Fukua bnb for over 8k. I don't know many others off hand, but I'm sure it wouldn't take me too long.
 
So about the Big Band matchup, for the new Painwheel players, I made a motivational video from the bottom of my wheel:
It's some of my bad gameplay. I feel like my gameplay is very sloppy most of the time, which tells me I haven't come close to my fullest abilities yet.
One issue I have is I fight against other Painwheels once every month if I'm lucky. As a result I'm like a wild man trying to host fine dining.

So I guess instead of pointing out her obvious problems, I'm just trying to be more deliberate with her.
I've never really felt that she was holding me back since I can't really play anyone else.
(That could just be that I'm terrible, though.)

But I honestly think if I clean it up and learn better combos I could be the Wong of Skullgirls. (I'm joking)
 
I've spent about 700 hours with this game alone (This isn't my main game, either). I think this character is gdlk. :|

PW is great 1v1. She has the tools to pressure, get in and she has great spacing in midrange

PW is bad 1v2 or 3. She gets bodied by assists when she's stuck in massive lulz hitstop on her jump-in normals.

PW is great on a team when she has virtually any kind of assist options.

This Cilia Slide assist is some wonderful shit. PW is top tier with Cilia Slide...
 
StripeyBoosh said:
One issue I have is I fight against other Painwheels once every month if I'm lucky. As a result I'm like a wild man trying to host fine dining.

But I honestly think if I clean it up and learn better combos I could be the Wong of Skullgirls. (I'm joking)

Don't become the Wong of SG. He doesn't play SG. You want to play SG, I would think?

Also, PW's thing against PW is that she's TOO good on offense. Find a way to throw charged H Nails, fly out of it and just go in. You'll win.

I do think her meter gain is poopy. I would like more meter to play with...

But maybe this is because I fight Worldjem and he always gets 5 meters for free.
 
Krackatoa said:
This Cilia Slide assist is some wonderful shit. PW is top tier with Cilia Slide...

Before armor preblock was known i would have doubted this highly. Now however especially with the jhp slide strat beating reversals with buer, i can see it, kinda. But it at the end of the day is just another reset option... Which she truly has in spades anyways (dont see anyone using st.hk (2) xx fly xx stinger crossup, yet, but its been a known thing for a long time.

I dont know if pw is "top tier" with cilia slide. She still has that neutral to get over. And she gets out neutraled by:

Val,possibly big band,cerebella,peacock,squigly,fukua. Thats a lot of matchups to have a disadvantage at neutral against and no assist to really help neutral. But maybe slide is a good neutral tool as well. But from what ive seen lately, neutral is becoming more and more airbased of the superjump>double jump kind and painwheel seems to have problems with that style of neutral and slide doesnt really seem to help much at all... On paper.


So in the end it seems more of the same.... Shes awesome on hit, as always, but her neutral needs help. So if shes basically the same how can that strat be top tier, when everyone except you and me for the most part think shes dirt bottom tier?
 
You know, I never ever use nails. Maybe that's one of my problems. I sometimes forget they are even there.
I'll definitely give it a shot. Other Painwheels terrify me.
 
Yeah, use nails. You can actually confirm off of them almost full screen into a full combo, but more importantly than that they give you some much needed cover while you move in.

@Krackatoa

She can be pretty damn good 1v1. Her problem there though is she has some pretty awful match ups... well... Parasoul. She has the Parasoul match up.

I also think Peacock (solo or assisted) is super rough on her. Everyone acts like I'm crazy though and that I should be taking a solo Peacock down for free. I'd love to see some MU videos to show this, because for the life of me. I can't catch Peacock, and when I do she has an incoming George that is going to prevent a combo and I am back at the beginning trying to catch her.

Also, what is your main game out of curiosity?
 
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