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Double Please Flip Dust Cloud on Bandwagon

tekkaxe

tekkaxe

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Dear Mike Z,
In spite of my best intentions, I keep walking into Double's deathmobile.

Please Flip the dust cloud on double's Bandwagon *horizontally*:
Double's car super leaves behind a dust cloud, as we're aware. The problem I face is that the dust cloud is actually indicating the opposite direction that it should, which has lead to many situations where -logically- I block the correct direction, but
-actually-, I walk into a car.


*Cue Thorough Explanation*

It goes something like this:
-I am on the P1 side, double is on the P2 side. Double uses car super.
-Dust cloud indicates that double has exited the screen -TOWARD THE P1 side-, and thus, I should expect her to re-enter -FROM the P1 side-
-Yet, in actuality, the game is saying: "double will be driving toward the P1 side".
-I walk into a car.

My Problem:
-This game doesn't have screen wrapping in any other circumstances that I can think of.
-The smaller part of the dust cloud would be NEARER to double's position, while the larger part would be FURTHER from double's position. Whatever side the smaller part of the cloud is, that's the direction that vehicle would be traveling. (Because the vehicle is traveling, and the dust nearest to it is going to be "less kicked-up" then the part further away, that was "kicked-up" at an earlier time and so traveled higher into the air)
Granted, this may have been different if this was a "peel-out" scenario and Double was kicking up dust/dirt/smoke while spinning her wheels in place- But then she'd be headed straight for me, instead of potentially re-entering the screen somewhere.
-So if Double exits on the P2 side, I should expect her to come back in from the P2 side. If she exits on the P1 side, I should expect her to come back in from the P1 side.

I've run into the situation many times, where the super-flash happens and so I take a quick peek at the dust to determine which way I need to block. And in that brief moment, having the internal dialogue of, "Remember Tekkaxe: game-logic, not real-world logic. The car's coming out the opposite way- wait, is it the opposite way of what it's supposed to be, or the opposite way of what it isn't?" usually results in me walking into a car.

This is especially problematic with something like a cross-under/DHC hail-mary car super and the only clue I have for correctly blocking is the dust cloud.

Please help me not walk into any more cars.
-Tekkaxe
 
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Well, i actually agree with this. I still guess car direction since my brain cant process surprise random car>dust coming out> dust pointing in a direction> me blocking away from the dust direction as opposed to what feels like the correct way.


But idk if it should be changed. I'm a creature of habit and my thinking is that other people are as well. I constantly get hit by doubles new tag because I'm walking forward out of habit and crossing myself up since it no longer crosses up... So i prefer it the other way, but i wouldnt ask for it to be that way since the current treatment of it feels like the best way, its just that i didnt come up with it that way and learned something different right off the bat.


So while the dust cloud might be better the way you suggest, there are so many people used to reacting to it the current way, changing the dust cloud might actually be detrimental.
 
you know that the car super makes a sound from the side of the screen that it enters, right? you can use that to block the right way
 
oh for fucks sake no

Double's tag has already been changed so that it won't really crossup the same way, and that fucks me up now because I got used to it crossing up all the time so I get hit. I don't want another EASILY REACTABLE thing like this randomly changed because you're too lazy to get it in your head "DUST CLOUD IN THIS DIRECTION MEANS CAR FROM THAT PART OF THE SCREEN"

The dust cloud makes sense from a visual perspective and indicates completely clearly where she's going to be emerging from and literally no-one else I've told this tell to gets hit by yolo car anymore at all ever if they're in an opportunity to block
 
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not everyone plays with decent headphones on
 
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This is one of the most ridiculous and long-winded complaints I've ever seen for something that isn't even an issue in the slightest.

First of all, the direction of the dust completely makes sense. Think of it like it's the dust cloud that would trail behind the wagon while it's moving. A vehicle moving to the right would leave a trail of dust moving in the opposite direction, which is why the dust trail flows to the left when the wagon is about to come in moving from left to right (and vice versa). Even if it confuses you for whatever reason, the manner in which it works is still completely consistent. This means that you can train yourself to to correctly block the move, it just requires enough experience and practice. Just keep trying, eventually you'll learn to block it.

Also, if the visuals confuse you and you can't react to the audio, then try this...always block as if she's going to come at you from whichever corner/side you are closest to. For example, if your back is against the wall and double throws out a wagon, then block as if she's going to come in from behind. If she doesn't, then you have plenty of time to switch the direction in which you were blocking. I did this for about a day until I realized that there's a very obvious visual cue that tells the player exactly which side she's coming from every time...
 
Dagwood said:
In the time you took to type this out, you coulda spent 1 minute in training mode and practiced blocking it.
This is true. It isn't as hard to block as some think.
 
@ClarenceMage
The issue isn't it being difficult to react to. You missed my point.
Nor is the issue laziness and refusal to train. You missed my point again.

The issue is that the visual signal given to us to react to the car properly works in a way opposite how logic dictates it should work. So you have to deliberately choose to do the opposite of what is intuitive, which can suck really badly in clutch situations with limited time to respond (such as my example of yolo-crossunder DHCs and other shenanigans)

My post wasn't "Waaah, it's too hard", but "Consider this: because reasons." Your response of "I'm used to it already, so deal" boils down to "change nothing, because I like it." Well, what happens when someone else doesn't? Hence discussion, as opposed to kneejerk raging/condescension.


@Skullmageddon
What you explain is prettymuch the problem though. The dust cloud as it is introduces a one-time case of screen-wrapping, because instead of exiting on the right side, and coming back in from the right side, Double exits and wraps, a logical hiccup (because where else in the game is there screenwrapping? Her tag-in? That was already weird enough) that has occasionally screwed me up in clutch situations. Also, the smaller part of the cloud would actually be closer to the rear wheels of the moving car, with the larger puff further away. That was in my wall of text.

@Others
I understand that people are used to it. There are a lot of things that people are used to. But my post isn't an issue of refusal to "git gud". It's an explanation of logical reasons why things should work differently. If you like it the way it is, or are used to it: whatevs. But beyond "I'm used to it", do you have any reasons?


@Dinglejet
I play on mute, so no sound cues for me.
 
tekkaxe said:
The issue is that the visual signal given to us to react to the car properly works in a way opposite how logic dictates it should work. So you have to deliberately choose to do the opposite of what is intuitive.

This is currently what you are communicating to me.

GSMxm8n.png
 
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If you are confused, you can adapt.
If they change, a shitload of people will have to adapt.

If it implied in no gameplay change, like Val's bypass sprite change when it didn't crossed, it would be ok to change, but this is not the case.
 
this is the same super that has Double turn into Peacock and then vanish into a hole in the ground that was not there before and we are complaining of screen wraping?

think of it this way, the car isnt invisible and goes the way the smoke goes like your diagram suggests , the smoke is telling you what direction the car would be going if it peeled out in that exact spot
 
@Arcana, @Icky
In the context of the game, snapbacks and tagging tell us everything we need to know about the areas to the left and right of the playable space, and how characters exit/enter, building a set of expectations. If the game set a different precedent by having a particular character tag in by running up from behind the opponent/target, then heck, expectations are out the window: characters will enter/exit wherever. Conversation finished, and I need to just deal with it. I'd have no "logical" leg to stand on.

And it's not that I consider the car "invisible", but it has already driven so incredibly fast in that particular direction that all that remains is dust, completing it's animation in response to the motion. It'd be different if we were talking about smoke/exhaust/something else, as the behavior/animation would be different. The dust as it is communicates something particular (see stick figures above)

As for the car peeling out from that exact spot, because of the animation of the dust, that wouldn't be the case, bringing me back to my request to flip the dust. Basically, should what will happen in the game match what the game is telling us is about to happen.
 
Wait- There's a tell for which direction Double brings the pain?

Also, I like your drawings. Please make more of them. Suggestions: Double goes to the drive-through, Double gets stuck in traffic, at a parking lot, et cetera...
 
Okay, I see what you're saying now. Your complaint would make perfect sense if we did see double drive off into the part of the screen she's going to leave from, but she doesn't, she disappears into a hole in the ground. Then, she makes the dust cloud that she would make appearing from the side of the screen that she's teleported to.
 
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I don’t see an error of logic here with the current Bandwagon Rushdown. Double takes form of Peacock. Peacock goes down the rabbit hole. Cloud of dust appears on the ground and moves towards the direction of where the bandwagon is going to come from to give you the oculus rift developer experience. Ever since ive noticed the cloud from when I first started to play I never have been hit by bandwagon outside of a combo.


As for the dust cloud, I see it as coming from Peacock's hat, not the car from the future. Peacock grabs that hat really fast and since she’s a cartoon character you have to expect exaggeration and from this exaggeration come the dust cloud is made from the rapid force of hat grabbing as she goes down the rabbit hole.
 
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tekkaxe said:
snip
Have you ever watched a looney toons cartoon? Like, every cartoon has the whole peel out dust trial behind someone when they run. Double turns into peacock, the cartoon character. It's obvious that it's a reference to a peel out animation, which makes it make PERFECT logic sense for double to go the way she goes.
 
but double dosnt drive away she goes into the ground after turning into peacock
 
@Icky
Yes Icky, it is a reference to that classic cartoon animation... but flipped in the wrong direction. As I alluded to earlier in my doodle, why would dust precede the car that it's supposed to be trailing behind? So that means that the dust is showing us where double already went- thus where we can expect her to return from.

Looney tunes reference at about the 6:08 mark: Notice how near roadrunner's feet, the dust is smaller/more condensed than the dust further away from roadrunner, where it is more spread out

More roadrunner. Again, smaller near the feet. 6:45:

speedy gonzales:

Reference from a real car:


@Arcana
Yes, Double-peacock jumped into a hole. But then the game shows us this:
double super 02.jpg


based on the reference videos above, what direction did the object, that was formerly here, go.
 
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why is this even a thread, it takes like one or two games to figure out how it works after you've been told. Or you could spend 2 minutes in training and get it down.

"The big part is where the car is coming from"
 
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the smoke comes before the car, it isnt invisibly driving that way then coming out the other
 
Am I missing something or is the dust smaller at the front of the car and roadrunner's feet, and larger behind the car and roadrunner's feet which means that you're incorrect?

I really am TRYING to understand where you're coming from and I just don't get it. If Mike were to change the dust to go in the opposite direction I know I'd be hit by it every time since I can't find any logic reasoning behind it.
 
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Icky said:
I really am TRYING to understand where you're coming from and I just don't get it. If Mike were to change the dust to go in the opposite direction I know I'd be hit by it every time since I can't find any logic reasoning behind it.
His thinking process is "Double turns into an invisible car, which drives offscreen and then returns".

So Dustcloud points at Car driving to the right ->
Normal person: "Okay, the car is going to come from the left and drive to the right"
He: "Okay, the car was invisible and drove towards the right and off the screen, then turned around offscreen, became visible, and is now going to come from the right"

I have to say, I am impressed by both the thinking process and the cutely drawn picture

OP: Just imagine it's a time-travelling cloud which appears before the car actually drives there.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
He: "Okay, the car was invisible and drove towards the right and off the screen, then turned around offscreen, became visible, and is now going to come from the right"
Okay. I see. I've never even remotely considered that Double's car worked like that, guess that explains why I don't agree with Tekkaxe's logic
 
Let me get this straight.
Double is a being that instantly teleports around the place and summons matter out of nowhere during her supers.
Also, tends to shapeshift in a way ignoring conservation of mass several times a second.
And you plan to exact abidance to the laws of physics from this person?
aJ8S9iB.gif
 
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@Icky, @IsaVulpes
I think you guys understand me by now, though you feel differently. That's totally fine and I appreciate your perspective (Time-traveling Cloud for DLC, plz). Other than cartoon-reference/realworld reference and versus games, Alpha 3 Shin Bison's Psycho Crusher is also why I think of bandwagon the way that I do.




@Muro and other newcomers:
I understand that there are those who don't agree with my line of reasoning, which is totally fine. My goal though is to make my reasoning as clear as possible, so that at least if we don't agree, it's clear what we're not agreeing on. Quick analogy for consideration for those who may not read on- if you saw a character doing a sweep-kick attack, totally SF2-Ryu style, but were told that you had to block it while standing, would you just deal with it?:

For me, the issue with the current Bandwagon superflash situation comes from a few main things:
1) the dust cloud happens BEFORE Double reappears. This is important because, as in all of the video reference that I posted, the dust follows the object that is traveling. The direction that the dust is facing AND animating in skullgirls, coupled with it appearing BEFOREHAND is conveying that "something was here, is no longer here, and has gone in the direction that logically follows we can expect from animated dust that looks like this". Due to how tagging, snapbacks, and off-screen/in-screen stuff works in both this game and other team based games, it's fair to then expect the character to re-enter the screen from a certain direction.

2) You may disagree, but the video reference I linked and the point that I'm trying to get across is that "Dust that looks like this is saying something specific". The shape and animation of the dust cloud is key. Yes, we're talking about a character that defies physics in many instances, but from an art/visual communcation/animation standpoint, it isn't the clearest that visual communication could be in this circumstance.

3)Street fighter Alpha 3 Shin Bison/Final bison's ridonculously crazy psycho crusher is a good point of comparison. Bison drifts in a certain direction and leaves the screen. When he returns, he doesn't come in from the opposite side he left out of. His drift/float animation made that clear.

4)This amounts to something in my experience that is as jarring as seeing character perform a sweep-kick but being told you have to block that while standing. The issue is not whether I could learn the difference/deal with it/adapt. The issue is what it looks like and what makes sense. If you're used to it, that's one thing. But if you think It makes total sense to block that metaphorical sweep while standing, please help me to understand your POV better.


Considerations:
-it's what we expect from cars trailing dust in the real world
-it's what we even expect from cartoon speedsters
-the game itself trains us to not expect screen wrap, through snapbacks, tagging, and reentry
-outside of the game, the character I believe may be an influence for this move, operates the way I would expect (shin bison, alpha 3)
-the game provides us a visual cue as to where the previous thing went, thanks to the sequence of events (dust preceding car appearance)
 
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tekkaxe, your doodle makes sense, but you're also WAY over-thinking this...

The dust cloud is only their to indicate which direction the wagon is going to come from. It is in no way meant to imply that double has left the screen in either direction. I'm surprised that you even read the dust cloud as something that indicates the direction in which double has left the screen considering she drops straight into a whole in the ground. I understand your logic now that you've explained it in more depth, but I also completely disagree with it.

You're just going to have to change the manner in which you interpret the layers of visual information. Don't try to logically deduce which direction she's coming from based on any sort of notions or logic...just memorize it. Most people would probably agree that the current direction of the dust cloud makes more sense than what you're proposing since most people don't read the cloud as an implication that double has left the screen in a particular direction...I also wouldn't expect Mike to make any changes to how this super works, nor do I think it would be a good idea.

This might make sense if Double, for example, could actually be seen jumping off screen in either direction. But she doesn't do that, she drops through a whole and teleports to either side of the screen.

index.php

This part of your illustration indicates that you interpret the visuals very differently from how most people probably do. I look at the dust cloud and think "that's what it would look like if the car went in that direction, so the car is about to go in that direction." Double has nothing to do with it, I've always just assumed that the dust was meant to precede the car.

So yeah, don't think about it too hard dude. Just memorize that junk.
 
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Were the super attempting to be super realistic, there probably wouldn't be any dust cloud at all. Just Double submerging into the ground followed by a car coming from either side, leaving the decision on which side to block to listening to the incoming car sound or a mental coin toss. The dust cloud was more likely than not just added as a 100% gameplay 0% logic left-right visual cue, since one was needed and a cloud of dust is as unintrusive as it gets.

If you really want to assume that right after submerging underground Double reappears and drives off screen so fast the camera doesn't register it (and I see you really do), there is still no logical advantage of the <- cloud vs the -> one given Double's nature. You say Double goes one way, turns around and goes back (slowing down from fast as a bullet to a less damaging normal car speed for some reason, but lets roll with it). But lets say I say she goes forward past the opponent as a warm up, teleports back and then goes the same way again because hey, she has no objections to teleport all around the stage during her lvl 3.

Double could very well do either of those things and your guess is no better - but also no worse - than my guess. However, my guess accepts the visual cue we have in-game, whereas your request in the thread's title suggests thousands of people should relearn two years of reacting to a thing just because you think your crazy theory is better than my crazy theory, and that's just crazy talk.
 
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tekkaxe said:
Other than cartoon-reference/realworld reference and versus games, Alpha 3 Shin Bison's Psycho Crusher is also why I think of bandwagon the way that I do.

In A3, Bison has a trail behind him where he fucks off to one side of the screen, while double jumps into a magic cartoon hole in the bottom of the groun.

tekkaxe said:
if you saw a character doing a sweep-kick attack, totally SF2-Ryu style, but were told that you had to block it while standing, would you just deal with it?:

Heaps of the standing Dust attacks in guilty gear look like they have literally no business being overheads(Like Testament's hands coming from the ground) but you just get used to that shit.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Heaps of the standing Dust attacks in guilty gear look like they have literally no business being overheads(Like Testament's hands coming from the ground) but you just get used to that shit.
Everyone still gets hit by Testament's dust anyways.
 
oh god please no. changing something for the sake of changing it sucks. i also dont think ive managed to block doubles new tag in correctly since it was changed to not cross up anymore which is super annoying and really unnecessary.
 
I love your doodles they're the best

What Skullmageddon said about the dust cloud being the indicator sounds about right. It's like that little warning sign in the "Dodge!" microgame in the Warioware stage from ssb.
 
Ok. I agree with the op, but at the same time I've been blocking it no problem for over a year now soooo don't see the need.

The way I see it, the dust cloud does tell you EXACTLY the direction the car WILL GO, as opposed to the direction it will come from. If the large back of the dust cloud points to the right, according to that the car will move to the left, which means it's coming from right to left!

Just imagine it this way: that exact cloud is forming behind Double off screen.

Hopefully my logic will help, @tekkaxe.
 
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