SG Game Design Discussion

[View619]

So...can PW jump and react with Air Super to punish? Outside of predicting, I don't see what else you can use, and I'm not for nerfs to an already weak set of command grabs (looking at SPD, Pot Buster in comparison) just to make punishing easier.

Hell, can PW jump and react with one of the Buer Reapers? I believe you can flight cancel that and convert, yeah? That's better than a lot of other characters imo. Everybody else has to predict (except maybe Fortune and Val with super).

 

[Spencer]

So...can PW jump and react with Air Super to punish? Outside of predicting, I don't see what else you can use, and I'm not for nerfs to an already weak set of command grabs (looking at SPD, Pot Buster in comparison) just to make punishing easier.

Hell, can PW jump and react with one of the Buer Reapers? I believe you can flight cancel that and convert, yeah? That's better than a lot of other characters imo. Everybody else has to predict (except maybe Fortune and Val with super).

Ish. If it is dead on, yes. If it is above, no (the hitbox for thresher doesn't go above PW).

Buer Reapers can work (you have to predict j.hp), but you can't really confirm into it unless you can land a j.mp otg which is rare based on distance. Generally, no you don't convert. Reaper knocks them huge across screen. Neither option is that good. I've found much more luck trading with j.hk. It keeps Squigs a touch honest with j.hp.

 

[View619]

Ish. If it is dead on, yes. If it is above, no (the hitbox for thresher doesn't go above PW).

Buer Reapers can work (you have to predict j.hp), but you can't really confirm into it unless you can land a j.mp otg which is rare based on distance. Generally, no you don't convert. Reaper knocks them huge across screen. Neither option is that good. I've found much more luck trading with j.hk. It keeps Squigs a touch honest with j.hp.

One of the downward reapers...not the horizontal one. And I'm still talking about punishing Bella command grabs, in case there's some confusion.

Hell, I think I'll start using those to punish whiffed grabs in general if they work.

 

[iLoli]

I REAALLY hate how a discussion about the game's design has devolved into the fucking Cerebella v Painwheel matchup.

Post that shit in the Cerebella or Painwheel section.

Everyone knows this matchup is terrible, but just because one character struggles vs. a tool doesn't mean that tool should be nerfed, I think everyone here can agree with that sentiment.

 

[Dime]

So...can PW jump and react with Air Super to punish? Outside of predicting, I don't see what else you can use, and I'm not for nerfs to an already weak set of command grabs (looking at SPD, Pot Buster in comparison) just to make punishing easier.

Hell, can PW jump and react with one of the Buer Reapers? I believe you can flight cancel that and convert, yeah? That's better than a lot of other characters imo. Everybody else has to predict (except maybe Fortune and Val with super).

There are lots and lots and lots of ways to punish bellas command grabs, probably by every character in the cast.

Buuuut that isnt the point. As age said, and hes a rather good bella, he very rarely gets his command grab attempts punished. Punishing wiffed dd with pw super is hard to do on reaction. Possible in an offline environment... But i dont play offline and its still a super punish. Punishing with buer also works... But once again is a hard reaction. Pw can ground fly and punish with flight normals, she can hold up and mash hk i would imagine as well, which is probably the best counter since flight is an actual read and airsuper and buer are hard reactions, if not near impossible.

But like i said, that aint the point.. The point is making bella a little more hesitant with just being able to throw out command grabs all day with little of non exotic punishes.


Also, darkness little photo up top correlates with mgr having near half screen range. Range is calculated from the back of one character to another (since the back of a character IS affected by a move that hits there front) if he put a characters blue box just barely overlapping the red hitbox on mgr.. The back of the character being hit would be PAST midscreen (the middle of the clock when cornered) so yeah its actually a little more than half screen... I wouldnt have believed it myself had i not just tested it. I knew it had range but goddamn. Anyways, im sure some will disagree on the ranging... But whatever...

Fine it hits about 3 character lengths away from bella... Either way, the range is fucking huge.

Also, i dont play bella, but i just looked at her moves and... Yeah mgr mixed up with sweep hits from 3 character lengths away or more, or half screen...pick your terminology it doesnt matter. The range is huge.

-edit

My bad, the range in character lengths is 2 1/2

But thats still huge. And still reaches characters that are almost directly under the clock when bella is cornered.

-edit 2

@DARKNESSxEAGLE

Mgr has more range than uss.

A simple test in training mode should show you this: put a character into max range for mgr. save the state, now jump back in the corner to make sure no forward movements are registered and wiff uss all day, then when youve had enough fun, do the same with mgr.

And with that im wondering why people rush to put their foots in their mouths everytime i make a correct statement.

Also i like the ninja edit where you took out uss having more range than mgr...

 

[Spencer]

One of the downward reapers...not the horizontal one. And I'm still talking about punishing Bella command grabs, in case there's some confusion.

Hell, I think I'll start using those to punish whiffed grabs in general if they work.

My bad, got my threads mixed up.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

Also i like the ninja edit where you took out uss having more range than mgr...

Ninja edit was me getting rid of a slightly angry statement that came from me misunderstanding something you had written, I had thought you were complaining that currently if they succeed they can't be punished (which is true but would be ridiculous to complain about) when you were actually making a reasonable statement about how even with the nerf it doesn't make good Bella play any worse. Also that top image is MGR, so the one where I've shown the hitbox is MGR and not USS, I'm not sure what you're trying to complain to me about with your statement at all, I never said anything about MGR or USS having more range than the other, however I did think USS had more as I didn't see any need to test which one had more as it doesn't change anything.

You seem to be getting quite aggressive over nothing, from your derogatory accusation of me lacking reading abilities to your recently false one trying to penalize a mistake that neither existed in the first place, nor was it relevant.

 

[ClarenceMage]

Lol, so you're fine with giving her situational grabs more recovery while giving them nothing in return?

I never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth. Cerebella's grab recovery is fine since if you read it you get a full IAD combo. Playing grapplers and whiffing a command grab is and has always been super risky if your opponent guesses right.

Unless you call an assist(Let's say, Updo) at the same time which triggers the anti-upback protection, therefore potentially giving Cerebella a stupidly-hard-to-blockable/unblockable setup if you time it so that updo hits after the command grab, where if you up-back the updo's startup keeps you on the ground therefore you get grabbed and you get hit by updo if they fuck up the timing, if you hold up you're not blocking so you get hit by the updo, and if you hold downback you get thrown.

So if you decide to block IN ANY WAY you are FUCKED. Therefore your only option within the situation is to super which requires you to have meter, and depending which super it is it may or may not work because Updo could ruin your day. If it's swag wagon, then Cerebella might recover in time after her command grab to punish. It'll work if it's fenrir drive, but updo will eat Gregor Samson. EKG would work. cbf going on listing all supers. #NerfAge

Unless that situation doesn't actually work like that, correct me then since I'd LOVE TO HEAR A SOLUTION, but I think lacking the ability to convert off of throw midscreen is a REALLY SMALL price to pay to having a mixup of that calibre of bullshit.

I'm just saying that Cereballa has a crazy amount of options and I don't think she even really needs to be able to convert into full combo off of her regular grab midscreen.

 

[iLoli]

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Assists don't really come out in time to catch you upbacking like that with your point character already pressing buttons.

Think about it, what it would actually take for you to do:Jab> strong>(assist call) fierece>command grab.


I think it's the first 2 frames (or 4) that are air unblockable.

Also, updo hits on the ground as well, and the active frames on Cerebella's ground grabs don't exactly last forever, the defending character will too busy being in blockstun to get yoked.

Are you also forgetting about pushblock, because that's a thing.

There's no reason for you not to pushblock bella, granted, she can slightly negate that effect with run, but not to the point where you should be scared, because at that point, you have the advantage, or are at least back to neutral.


If you pushblock bella, she's away, if you pushblock the assist, you're in blockstun and can't get grabbed.


Screw it, let's find out if it's possible by framedata.

@IsaVulpes

 

[View619]

I never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth. Cerebella's grab recovery is fine since if you read it you get a full IAD combo. Playing grapplers and whiffing a command grab is and has always been super risky if your opponent guesses right.

Unless you call an assist(Let's say, Updo) at the same time which triggers the anti-upback protection, therefore potentially giving Cerebella a stupidly-hard-to-blockable/unblockable setup if you time it so that updo hits after the command grab, where if you up-back the updo's startup keeps you on the ground therefore you get grabbed and you get hit by updo if they fuck up the timing, if you hold up you're not blocking so you get hit by the updo, and if you hold downback you get thrown.

So if you decide to block IN ANY WAY you are FUCKED. Therefore your only option within the situation is to super which requires you to have meter, and depending which super it is it may or may not work because Updo could ruin your day. If it's swag wagon, then Cerebella might recover in time after her command grab to punish. It'll work if it's fenrir drive, but updo will eat Gregor Samson. EKG would work. cbf going on listing all supers. #NerfAge

Unless that situation doesn't actually work like that, correct me then since I'd LOVE TO HEAR A SOLUTION, but I think lacking the ability to convert off of throw midscreen is a REALLY SMALL price to pay to having a mixup of that calibre of bullshit.

I'm just saying that Cereballa has a crazy amount of options and I don't think she even really needs to be able to convert into full combo off of her regular grab midscreen.

If you were following the thread at all, you would have seen the suggestion to increase Bella command grab recovery to make it easier to punish...while giving nothing in return. I know it's really easy to ignore the general topic and post w.e. you want, but try to put your posts into context before hitting submit please.

Also, converting grabs into combos is REALLY good. Hell, I would drop all the invul on MGR if I Bella got a normal grab that she can convert off of. Also, mixing up command grab with assist calls doesn't work like that, hit training mode and see. The closest "bullshit" mix-up she ever had was Excellebella xx US + assist to cover a bad guess, like HK Hornet Bomber (ofc).

I'm over that though, what's the next thing? Is this assist scaling for all assist starters, including Tear explosions for example?

 

[iLoli]

There WAS an unblockable with Bella, but that's long since been rectified, and it didn't use Filia and it costed a meter.

 

[ClarenceMage]

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Assists don't really come out in time to catch you upbacking like that with your point character already pressing buttons.

Think about it, what it would actually take for you to do:Jab> strong>(assist call) fierece>command grab.

Or c.LK+(assist call), wait, command grab. Or, you could set the situation up in a reset. Or you could do it on wakeup after tech chase. There's a pretty decent amount of situations where that thing I'm talking about can be set up.

I think it's the first 2 frames (or 4) that are air unblockable.

Also, updo hits on the ground as well, and the active frames on Cerebella's ground grabs don't exactly last forever, the defending character will too busy being in blockstun to get yoked.

Air unblockable? What? I'm not talking about air unblockability. I'm talking about how you can't physically jump during an attack's startup if you're holding up+back. You're not addressing that specific mechanic, so unless you tell me exactly how that mechanic doesn't apply (like if it turns out that the upback protection doesn't apply to assists which would blow a decent amount of my problem out of the water) then "Sorry, it doesn't work that way" isn't going to be enough to convince me otherwise.

A

There's no reason for you not to pushblock bella,

If you pushblock bella, she's away, if you pushblock the assist, you're in blockstun and can't get grabbed.

If you pushblock Cerebella, she still has options to chase you down and blow you up for pushblocking. You can be command grabbed on visually verifiable timing after pushblock because you're returned to a neutral state. Cerebella has her qcb+throw command grab that reaches decently far. If you want to jump after pushblocking to avoid that she can anti-air throw you, or hit you with a sweep. To stay safe, they could pressure you without assist, bait the pushblock, run forward then do anti-air throw + assist like Hairball. If you jump you get grabbed, if you don't you're blocking Hairball. You gotta super to escape the situation depending on which character you are. If you pushblock an assist, Cerebella isn't being moved away and she's still in your grill so she gets c.LK/Command grab mixup timed to land just as your pushblock ends.

Pushblocking is not a get out of jail free card.

btw I'd like to make it clear that I'm not complaining about Cerebella being too strong or that she needs nerfs. Heaps of characters can run a train of bullshit on you in various other ways. I'm just explaining why I think Cerebella is strong.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I'd personally love to see the recovery on Bella's command grabs be increased IN EXCHANGE for her getting something like a slide knockdown on Diamond Drop, Grab Bag, and/or Excellebella like what @View619 mentioned. For Excellebella and Grab Bag at least it's like, "Oh, you made a hard read but because you weren't in the corner you only get a bit of damage and the opponent is further away from you so you have to work on getting back in again." I think it'd be nice if she actually got something for making good reads aside from just a bit of damage. With the recovery on her grabs as they are they just seem like low risk : low reward options (unless she's in the corner) instead of high risk : high reward. But that's just what I think.

 

[Dime]

How many characters have mixups that can be avoided solely by jumping? Kanchou, pummel horse, MGR, Diamond Drop and Ultimate Showstopper can all be avoided by someone just holding up and back, and 3 of them are easily punishable regardless of the situation, while DD and MGR can be punished by anyone with decent air mobility. If you're going to complain about Excellebella now then bear in mind that's only 1 of 7 obvious mixup options for Bella, and she's only likely to use it if you've been constantly escaping her other mixups with a backwards jump, complaining about that would be the same as complaining about jumping grabs which, as I'm sure you know, is something every character can do to punish chicken blockers.

And half a screen for MGR? No. Or are you talking about Ultimate Showstopper, which costs meter and is ridiculously easy to punish? Either way it sounds like the concept of spacing is completely lost on you. If you run head first at a grappler in any other game you're not going to be successful. Bella is no different, stay back, bait out her most obvious tools (all of which are easy to punish with the simple method provided in my previous paragraph) and then deal damage to her. Sure, this isn't going to work when someone is one step ahead of you, but in that case get one step ahead of them so their tricks won't work anymore.

Im over this argument. Ive said what i wanted to say and proven the point sufficiently in my eyes.

As for your presumption that I'm being aggressive towards you... I'm not. I'm just responding to snarky passive aggressive comments with snarky aggressive comments... Not to be confused with actual aggressive comments. If you want to see said dismissiveness i quoted your post. Note your use of the word "complaining" like 3 times and your premise that i dont know about spacing... By stating that the concept is lost on me.... If that isnt dismissive and snarky i dont know what is. Saying that im "complaining" is just your way of categorizing me, in front of everyone, as a complainer... The boy who cried wolf, not to be taken seriously. I do understand what you say about my disrespectful tone in regards to you after that, but... From my perspective, you totally deserved it. And that is still my perspective, I'm not some helpless dude that wont defend himself.

Anyways like i said, this convo is done on my end. Also, I'm not above apologizing for pissing someone off even if thats what i meant to do.

So @DARKNESSxEAGLE
I apologize for trivializing some of your points as well as being aggressive towards you in the form of backhanded insults. I dont need for you to accept my apology, or for you to apologize back, i just need you to know that if you come at with me the same attitude in the future, then you already know what road we will be traveling down.

Have a good day.

 

[Age]

Assists don't really come out in time to catch you upbacking like that with your point character already pressing buttons.

I do something like this fairly often, with just a hornet bomber it's still good. You just call the assist first, dash in and either command grab just before the assist hits, or c.lk and tick grab if they blocked, or if the assist hits too early just tick throw or do a high/low.

 

[iLoli]

I do something like this fairly often, with just a hornet bomber it's still good. You just call the assist first, dash in and either command grab just before the assist hits, or c.lk and tick grab if they blocked, or if the assist hits too early just tick throw or do a high/low.

Well, there's a hole if Clarancemage cares, then.

The dash.

Or are you doing something that has the opponent on the ground when you're dashing in?

Who ever non chickenblocks double butt?

 

[Age]

Well, there's a hole if Clarancemage cares, then.

The dash.

Or are you doing something that has the opponent on the ground when you're dashing in?

Who ever non chickenblocks double butt?

It varies but knockdowns help, and I can always mixup whether I'm gonna command grab before the assist or go for a titan knuckle or something (or even titan knuckle startup into command grab to mess with people). I guuuuess this is sort of related to the topic since whiffing MGR still lets me follow up on the assist a fair amount.

 

[Dime]

@iLoli

The unblockables that Clarence Mage is talking about have already been confirmed by mike, actually years ago... Now if they were taken out in some version of all these patches, then cool, if not, cool.

However in vanilla there was 1 version with many types of moves associated:


Command grab plus low attack, with the low attack active frame timed one frame (or so) after the command grabs active frame. Results in an unblockable cause if the opponent jumped the first active frame of the command grab, they get hit in jump startup from the low attack.

The other unblockable is like what Clarence suggested. Command grab timed with any move from an assist that hits quick enough to hit during prejump frames as the command grab is being jumped.

This can be done on point with a command grab and a low assist, or on point with a low attack and a command grab assist. And there are also hard to blockables like throw with a low assist or vice versa...


Make said that he knew of these but didnt think they were easy enough to setup to become a problem, but that if they did that he would take a look at them and reassess the situation.... Whether that has happened already i dont know.

 

[iLoli]

It varies but knockdowns help, and I can always mixup whether I'm gonna command grab before the assist or go for a titan knuckle or something (or even titan knuckle startup into command grab to mess with people). I guuuuess this is sort of related to the topic since whiffing MGR still lets me follow up on the assist a fair amount.

Yeah, but that's EVERY character with a pressure/invincible assist.

And most characters get MORE off their throws.

@Dime_x: I remember having a couple of unblockables in Vanilla, only one I used was straight out confirmed unblockable, though, and that was taken out with the quickness.

Since that one was taken out, it's best to assume that the other ones were, too.

 

[Age]

Yeah, but that's EVERY character with a pressure/invincible assist.

And most characters get MORE off their throws.

@Dime_x: I remember having a couple of unblockables in Vanilla, only one I used was straight out confirmed unblockable, though, and that was taken out with the quickness.

Since that one was taken out, it's best to assume that the other ones were, too.

No, Filia could do dash up throw with pillar, but the throw would be techable. She could do dash up low, but it would be blockable. I'm talking about command grab+assist against which you need to either be already in blockstun, jump (and risk getting hit by assist) or do something invincible.

 

[iLoli]

No, Filia could do dash up throw with pillar, but the throw would be techable. She could do dash up low, but it would be blockable. I'm talking about command grab+assist against which you need to either be already in blockstun, jump (and risk getting hit by assist) or do something invincible.

And why are we not pushblocking Pillar here?

Also, are there too many pre-jump frames to try jumping and get tagged by dd or mgr?

Or is that just a mixup, and if it is, than it's just a mixup.

 

[Age]

And why are we not pushblocking Pillar here?

Also, are there too many pre-jump frames to try jumping and get tagged by dd or mgr?

Or is that just a mixup, and if it is, than it's just a mixup.

I think I'm gonna have to make a video on this. You can't pushblock the pillar because the mixup happens first (low/throw in Filia's case), and the pillar happens very soon afterwards to catch prejump or in Bella's case to make a command grab safe.

It is a mixup because invincible stuff gets out of it, but the command grab version does catch a lot of the normal defensive options. Perhaps we can talk about this in the gameplay discussion thread?

 

[obregon]

Has Mike ever shared any thoughts about Alpha-style air-unblockable stuff in SG? That is, the idea that a point character could use some grounded normals/anti-air specials to anti-air a jumping character and they can't block it? I think a lot of the dominance of AA type assists is that they work so well with (dash) jumping while blocking. Even the obvious counter to that (jump airthrow) is probably strongest when you cover it with an updo in case you whiff. Maybe stuff would only be air-unblockable to normal jump blocking, not super, which locks out assists already, and also not after you air-recover from hitstun or something to prevent some horrible resets.

 

[iLoli]

Has Mike ever shared any thoughts about Alpha-style air-unblockable stuff in SG? That is, the idea that a point character could use some grounded normals/anti-air specials to anti-air a jumping character and they can't block it? I think a lot of the dominance of AA type assists is that they work so well with (dash) jumping while blocking. Even the obvious counter to that (jump airthrow) is probably strongest when you cover it with an updo in case you whiff. Maybe stuff would only be air-unblockable to normal jump blocking, not super, which locks out assists already, and also not after you air-recover from hitstun or something to prevent some horrible resets.

He's said no to the idea.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

@VIVIT_rv00 After a bit of convincing and thought on your suggestion I've changed my mind and think that it isn't such a bad idea at all, the problem of it keeping up the difference in usefulness:simplicity between punishes, stray hits, etc. and combos in the same span of relativity to each other remains but it does mean people who are playing more of an advanced neutral game are going to win matches faster than they currently do, which I think can only be a good thing.

EDIT: Ok I reread that and it sounded ridiculous, I basically mean combos would still be just as useful and simple to pull off as they are now in relation to going for a less combo-centric approach, however someone who actually plays more of the game, instead of rerunning the same movie over and over again will be able to win faster than they currently do.

 

[Zidiane]

I feel like the Cerebella v Painwheel derailing was all my fault somehow.

 

[blufang]

1. Loops completely removed
Reason: Braindead stuff is bad, longer combos should be earned through creativity

2. Longer assist lockout upon hit
Reason: Assists are still way to high reward/low risk, and some are super spammable with huge blockstun and priority. This means you'd have to be more careful and smarter in when u throw ur assists out. Again more thinking, less braindead.

3. One launch allowed per combo
Reason: Encourages creativity, while shortening combos. Strengthens importance of resets more and will indirectly give more importance to neutral game.

4. Wider stages
Reason: Too easy to get opponent into the corner

5. Remove super hitstop freeze
Reason: Has been explained thoroughly in its own thread why this isn't good.

My vision is a game that is 33% main characters neutral, 33% optimum combos, 33% assists. Right now it seems like 50% combos, 40% assists, 10% neutral.

 

[IsaVulpes]

1. Loops completely removed
Reason: Braindead stuff is bad, longer combos should be earned through creativity

2. Longer assist lockout upon hit
Reason: Assists are still way to high reward/low risk, and some are super spammable with huge blockstun and priority. This means you'd have to be more careful and smarter in when u throw ur assists out. Again more thinking, less braindead.

3. One launch allowed per combo
Reason: Encourages creativity, while shortening combos. Strengthens importance of resets more and will indirectly give more importance to neutral game.

4. Wider stages
Reason: Too easy to get opponent into the corner

5. Remove super hitstop freeze
Reason: Has been explained thoroughly in its own thread why this isn't good.

1. Combos will never be 'creative' because 99.9% just copy the optimal stuff from some page. Removal of loops certainly is prettier to look at and gives a more diverse range of options and whatnot, but I don't think a 'creative' argument holds.

2. I don't think Assist lockout on hit solves any fundamental issue. It's more of a poor patchwork. Too lazy right now.

3. Kills the use for 2ndary launchers (eg Filia c.MP), tremendously buffs characters who don't rely on launchers for their combos (eg Parasoul - Bootloop uses 1 launcher). Seems like another not-really-working solution to shorten combos

4. IMO Stagelength is fine for general movement; The problem lies, again, rather in the combolength as you get full carries from any 70 hit combo. Not sure whether this is still an issue if you fix other things.

5. Actually it has been explained thoroughly in its own thread why Hitstop is a good idea?!

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

I think it'd be cool if grab techs swapped character positions, it would make coming in from being beaten up in a corner less of a limited opportunity to escape pressure. In mid-screen it wouldn't effect advantage much, whereas in corner -where the one actually going for the tech is more than likely to be the guy stuck there- it'll make grabs less of a goto option (at the moment if you go for a grab when an opponent comes in they get no reward at all for teching other than escaping your grab, they don't get an opportunity to punish an attempted air grab unless they play a character with an air super).

I dunno if this has been brought up (and shot back down just as quickly) before but if someone wants to point out its flaws then feel free to do so.

 

[Dime]

Actually i do think there is some sort of side switching thing in sg on teched grabs because sometimes when i play against the computer it techs my grabs and switches sides with me... Ive always wondered about that... Maybe the comp is to just that badass though. Wouldnt surprise me.

 

[bsobotka]

I think it'd be cool if grab techs swapped character positions, it would make coming in from being beaten up in a corner less of a limited opportunity to escape pressure. In mid-screen it wouldn't effect advantage much, whereas in corner -where the one actually going for the tech is more than likely to be the guy stuck there- it'll make grabs less of a goto option (at the moment if you go for a grab when an opponent comes in they get no reward at all for teching other than escaping your grab, they don't get an opportunity to punish an attempted air grab unless they play a character with an air super).

I dunno if this has been brought up (and shot back down just as quickly) before but if someone wants to point out its flaws then feel free to do so.

Cool idea but the first thing that came to me is that it would look pretty fucking weird. That's all I can really think of. An easier solution to corner pressure on incoming would be just make incoming be on the opposite side of the screen (not other corner, just current screen).

 

[ClarenceMage]

1. Loops completely removed
Reason: Braindead stuff is bad, longer combos should be earned through creativity

Braindead neutral game is bad, braindead combos are fine. I like loops because it means I don't have to spend ages in the lab/wait until lab monsters come out with good combos.

 

[Spencer]

Braindead neutral game is bad, braindead combos are fine. I like loops because it means I don't have to spend ages in the lab/wait until lab monsters come out with good combos.

I think the downside is that we end up with combos that are virtually undroppable. That makes huge portions of online play a 1-player game.

There are other games that do disgusting damage (KoF comes to mind), but dropped combos is actually a part and a risk of the game. It happens at even the highest level.

I don't drop a lot of combos (well... not until the last few days), and I'm willing to bet the higher tier drops almost nothing.

When I think of the strategy of the game (and I don't doubt that most would agree with me), it happens in that back and forth that occurs before the combo... the combo is just something that needs doing to get some damage off.

 

[iLoli]

I think the downside is that we end up with combos that are virtually undroppable. That makes huge portions of online play a 1-player game.

There are other games that do disgusting damage (KoF comes to mind), but dropped combos is actually a part and a risk of the game. It happens at even the highest level.

I don't drop a lot of combos (well... not until the last few days), and I'm willing to bet the higher tier drops almost nothing.

When I think of the strategy of the game (and I don't doubt that most would agree with me), it happens in that back and forth that occurs before the combo... the combo is just something that needs doing to get some damage off.

WUT

There are plenty of loops in that game.

There are plenty of loops in pretty much every kof game, I'm just using 13 because they have the most crazy examples besides 2001.

Dropped combos are a risk of the game?

Wut?

I don't really understand that.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I think the downside is that we end up with combos that are virtually undroppable.

*looks at various Salty Cupcakes and other Skullgirls streams where people continually drop combos like it's the new hotness*
Ahh man, if only. :/

I personally think Skullgirls combos, loops are no, are really easy compared to combos in most other games. You don't have to worry about starters affecting how quickly your opponent can tech out and in some cases you can even slow things down in your chains so you don't have to worry about doing everything as fast as possible. Not having to worry about tight links for the most part also helps.

Anyways it's not like all loops are easy, whether they be in Skullgirls or in other games.

 

[iLoli]

This shit just in, Lightning Loops are braindead.

Flames of The Faltine? Maaannnn.

Bulleta loop, piss easy.

Fuck extended Carcass Raid loops.

Screw dem C-Schoolgirl loops

Sweeping generalizations are bad.

 

[Dime]

This shit just in, Lightning Loops are braindead.

Flames of The Faltine? Maaannnn.

Bulleta loop, piss easy.

Fuck extended Carcass Raid loops.

Sweeping generalizations are bad.

Get a grip man, sweeping generalizations are bad which is true. But opinions are good. People are expressing their opinions, the least you could do is just say, "aight man, i dont agree, but its a free world" or something to that extent. Getting all cray over someone elses rather humbly stated opinion just seems intolerant of others.

 

[iLoli]

Get a grip man, sweeping generalizations are bad which is true. But opinions are good. People are expressing their opinions, the least you could do is just say, "aight man, i dont agree, but its a free world" or something to that extent. Getting all cray over someone elses rather humbly stated opinion just seems intolerant of others.

I'm so not going to be your left over salt deposit.

I don't mind opinions, but there are such things as "wrong opinions".

Droppable combos are not part of a metagame, the opponent should never be thinking "time to think of my punish when he drops this".

Most people die in Kof13 when they're touched with hd and looped, I guess you can think "time to punish this drop", but it shouldn't be happening.

Resets are, but if someone is completing a combo, they should be completing a combo.

Loops aren't any easier to complete than other combos and it's wrong to think so.

I never attacked him or his personality or even assume like how you do.

I listed a bunch of examples and then said that sweeping generalizations are bad.

 

[Master Chibi]

I'd personally like to see characters play more to their strengths and unique traits and less to using them just to pad a combo. That's a discussion for another day though :P

 

[Dime]

@iLoli

I agree with you. I just think that when people say things nicely... You should return the respect. (Not that you should agree with them if you dont agree)
I'm not trying to argue with you and this has nothing to do with that other thread. Debate is civil. If not then there can be no progress because all that happens is shit flinging and that doesnt change peoples minds, it just makes them duck and run for cover.


Iow, if you want to actually change his mind, or try to affect it in some way... It would behoove you to be polite in your retaliations.