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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Assist characters do not experience hitstop, and I'm like 96% certain H divekick is a majority hitstop, so they can pretty much leave as soon as they hit the ground. That being said it makes me cry if I hit green IPS to early in the combo and I have to use H dive in order to keep it but yeah,
I doubt this is the case. Regular hitstop and the super flash freezes often referred to as hitstop are not the same thing, and you can easily tell assists are affected equally by the former by just doing, for example, a happy birthday combo vs fukua + filia involving double j.hp
That move has plenty of hitstop, yet both characters will move identically. Similar cases with other moves that freeze you in place like sound stun or painwheel lp nail, both assists and point characters are affected equally
 
hmm idk then, I'd welcome that change.

[edit] tbf then I'd wish people wouldn't call superfreeze hitstop because then confusion like this wouldn't happen as often... I thought they were talking about attack hitstop when they said hitstop, not superfreeze.

[edit] iirc assist drop out of BFF super, so maybe those are similar types of hitstun/"hitstop"
 
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Okay so I just tested 3v2 (team of 3 has Fukua).

I played the entire match doing shadow hold combos and resets in training mode.
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I think that's a bit much for playing a full offensive reset heavy game. I'm not saying every Fukua is doing shadow hold for every combo and playing with 0 supers. But this is super worst case scenario of someone just going shadow heavy mixup like Fox was.

Like Fox said on stream, "Why should I lose life for mixing you up? I should gain life for you getting hit!"

This life drain was NOT only m. shadow hold. It was a combination of various shadow resets. If I did ONLY m. shadow to l/h shadow hold resets, she would probably be dead.
 
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tbh I'm not sure why life was chosen over meter, but I'm w/e.
 
tbh I'm not sure why life was chosen over meter, but I'm w/e.
I would prefer meter IF Fukua needs to be 'punished' for playing an offensive shadow game. That way, it would stop her from being able to super or DHC if she is playing too much offense (like Eliza playing with too much Sk).
 
It's a little dumb/silly, but it'd be fun if Double's snap gave her points if the opponent died before she used it. Points seem to be a crowd pleaser during matches!
 
Man she doesn't need to gain health for landing a hard to block mix up zzzzzz. But that's just my opeeeenion

If she's anything like Carmine then that amount of life lost looks about right? Most of that health is still red, so you could dhc out for a kill and have her start healing it back.
 
Man she doesn't need to gain health for landing a hard to block mix up zzzzzz. But that's just my opeeeenion

If she's anything like Carmine then that amount of life lost looks about right? Most of that health is still red, so you could dhc out for a kill and have her start healing it back.

Second
 
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I think that's a bit much for playing a full offensive reset heavy game.
IF Fukua needs to be 'punished' for playing an offensive shadow game.
When you have a character with some of the best resets in the game, there has to be a downside to that pressure. Have a look at headless Fortune, yeah, you get access to incredible resets and block pressure (sound familiar) but you also have to deal with the risk of your health being completely decimated if you get hit.
 
Man she doesn't need to gain health for landing a hard to block mix up zzzzzz. But that's just my opeeeenion

If she's anything like Carmine then that amount of life lost looks about right? Most of that health is still red, so you could dhc out for a kill and have her start healing it back.
I'm pretty sure Fox was being sarcastic when he said it. It was more out of frustration with the entire chat saying "NERF FUKUA, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST SHADOWS".
When you have a character with some of the best resets in the game, there has to be a downside to that pressure. Have a look at headless Fortune, yeah, you get access to incredible resets and block pressure (sound familiar) but you also have to deal with the risk of your health being completely decimated if you get hit.
Fair enough. I can agree. Though to some extent, I think double and beo probably have the hardest mixup game with no real downside. But that's just my opinion and don't want to drag those characters into it since I just try blocking better or playing in the lab to get out of those situations.

EDIT: I take that back, I think Beo takes more chip with no chair.
 
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I doubt this is the case. Regular hitstop and the super flash freezes often referred to as hitstop are not the same thing, and you can easily tell assists are affected equally by the former by just doing, for example, a happy birthday combo vs fukua + filia involving double j.hp
That move has plenty of hitstop, yet both characters will move identically. Similar cases with other moves that freeze you in place like sound stun or painwheel lp nail, both assists and point characters are affected equally
I always thought this was a hit stop thing too personally, at least I assumed that's why I don't do certain moves during happy birthdays because they will almost always drop for me. Like Blitzer, but that's mainly because blitzer is only hitting one of the characters and then the other land cancels..which leads to me getting jabbed out of happy birthdays and dying inside.
 
I think double and beo probably have the hardest mixup game with no real downside.

Beowulfs 50/50s are good but they're just 50/50s. If you know the usual timings after a hard knockdown you have a good chance at blocking high then low right away to cover both options, but that's kinda hard. If you block the overhead he can't go overhead again right away, so you can block low and then push him out. A lot of his strength comes from changing his timings during his pressure slightly, but it opens up the chance to get hit by reversals. Also yes he takes chip when he loses the chair =)
 
Since puddle works with DoA and USS now, can it also work with Fifth of Dismember? Monster grabs them before the explosion happens.
 
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RE: SQ hDive

So after forgetting about this topic and playing matches and it happening, I found that it HBDay's if both are on the ground and you do something like jHK>H dive but if the assist isn't on the ground when you do it they leave? or if you OTG with it. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics behind it just like I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics behind all the "freeze" hitstuns in this game (BFF, HDIVE, charge Needles, sound stun etc.) but it seems like a pretty easy fix (assuming this is a bug) since you can do H dive from what seems like the top of the screen on the point character but not on the assist. In fact, it seems like you have to hit the assist extremely low while HBDaying to get it.

One possible theory is that because you don't go into the second animation when you hit the assist on its own that the assist is still going through that when you HBDay, whereas the point character goes through the entire script. This means that the only way is to hit the point and assist low enough so that she goes into the second animation fast enough to hit. A possible fix, if this is the case is to say that, if the point is being hit at the same time by the same move the assist is affected by this "freeze" hitstun leading to the second animation. And since this isn't like smash or something where hitboxes stay on the screen (and get bigger...) so when they do both get hit by the move on the same frame anyway (I can't see a situation where this wouldn't occur.)

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Vials:

Could it be possible to hold the vial effects on the character when they are snapped out? So you could theoretically Poison someone, snap them out and then if that character comes in again they are still poisoned for however much more damage they have left? From what I recall poison itself doesn't kill. Maybe this is broken cause if you snap or kill a character you get a free vial load? This could apply to not only poison but for green vial and orange. Orange would be good in this situation because it would make your incomings as val harder to deal with for basically a bar, because it would delay incoming mashes, delay techs, delay blocking etc. (unless there's like a buffer on incoming or something I don't know about, cause then it would just be a guess like every other incoming just changed.)

This also could also affect them when they call assist as well. Poison would do extra damage to the assist if you call it, making the opponent think more about calling the assist at neutral because then they would be losing health when calling that assist. Green would mean that if you hit the assist you could still do resets while having the assist on screen cause they are frozen.
Idk what orange would do delay the assist input? Make their assist come out however many frames later? Make the window where they don't do anything when they initially come in longer than 2f? It doesn't have to do anything. I think the effect should go away if they leave on their own (DHC, AC, Tag) but stay in if she snaps.

Reasoning: This would make a lot more use with Green and orange vial specifically, which personally I don't see used a lot outside of gimmick setups(orange) or style (at least from footage I've watched. This would also give her access to a more long game use and making the opponent think more about their team (assuming that they have one), and give her more of a way to constrict options more having lasting effects on a team for effectively a bar. Whereas other opponents could restrict how you move around the screen in terms of neutral or in the corner under pressure, she would affect how you play your team by doing ninja shenanigans and snapping out.

This is just a suggestion however, I personally think this would be a very useful way to diversify the vial part of her kit. Especially, since the violent violet valentine vial has been altered quite a bit to prevent ridiculous damage situation.
 
If you poison an assist character, and snap them in, they come in poisoned.

Only way they wont still be poisoned is if val is hit with super before they come in, or they are called as an assist for enough frames for the poison to run out.
 
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IM more disappointed in st.MK right now than anything heh.
sorry MMDS this character definitely needs to die holding shadows
 
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Vials...
Yeah, this stuff is already in the game. Green vial does the same thing vs assist as vs point (more hitstun) and lag vial delays the assist coming on screen. Their effects also all last if you snap in the character so long as you do it fast enough and Val doesn't get hit by a normal (if level 1 vial) or super (level 2 and 3).
 
IM more disappointed in st.MK right now than anything heh.
sorry MMDS this character definitely needs to die holding shadows
I was just telling Wing yesterday that the st.mk made me drop a bunch of combos during my set against him. I didn't realize how much distance it lost! I used to use it for picking up off of assists, but I missed a whole bunch even from distances I thought was not that far. I'm not sure if you use it for follow-ups or for that weird upclose cross-under reset, but if there was a way to keep the range but lose the cross-under, I would much prefer that if Mike's goal was to fix that cross-under.

And I don't mind the life loss. I just thought it was a bit much with the m. shadow to x. shadow. But I'm noticing I don't do enough for it to really hurt me. So I'm fine with how much Mike set it to.
 
If you poison an assist character, and snap them in, they come in poisoned.
nvm then I never noticed this and I didn't have the game on me when I made the post. Good stuff

y does nobody use the other vials for incoming stuff more often...
 
y does nobody use the other vials for incoming stuff more often...
It isn't exactly super common that you would have a chance to snap in a character affected by lag vial. You either have to counter-venom the assist and then snap (that's 3 meters), hit the assist with a lag vial and snap or hit the point with a lag vial then snap them out and then back in, at which point why not just go for a normal mixup?

+a lag vial just makes things harder to react to, so it won't beat mashing. If you already have unread table 50/50s (which isn't that hard with the right assist) then it really isn't worth all of the resources and hassle required to setup a lag vial on incoming.

The lag and green vials are under-utilised ATM but that is just because they aren't as simple as the poison vial to apply though more people are learning to use them. + with green vial now providing meterless followups midscreen from airthrows it is even more useful than before.
 
Vials stuff
hmmm yeah, they are just cool concept and I hate that they aren't utilized as often as Poison
 
@Mike_Z During Beo's lvl 3 if you do EX wulfdog in the air it gets used up and you can't do it again unlike the other EXs, I pointed this out a while ago but I don't think you saw it.

Another thing, if you do a tag combo and then call the first characters' assist during the last string at max undizzy, they get to burst, I'm assuming this is unintended.
 
Is there something about Double jHP left|rights that merits a change to jHP but not jHK > left|right?
 
Is there something about Double jHP left|rights that merits a change to jHP but not jHK > left|right?

I think the justification for it was because of this video:


It's borderline-unreactable, and was braindead in its execution. Most jHK side switches are a lot more reactable and mashable as well, I think, if we're talking about the jLK jMP jHK setup. I'm saying this because I feel like that was the justification behind Mike changing things.

Personally? Whatever, Double had one of her strongest vortexes removed (you could buildabear a normal to add an air throw into the jHP side switch mixup). She still has a vortex and strong side switches.

This isn't directed at you, but lately I have been seeing Double players act like Double isn't an incredible character. Why is it so difficult to admit that retail Puddle was stupid, and the old disjointed normals carried a disproportionate amount of people in neutral? Why is it so difficult to see that H Luger trading and still letting them do 7k isnt stupid? Why is it such a contentious opinion to say that a level 5 that still does stupid damage isnt doo doo and unuseable? Is it really that outrageous of an opinion? She is toned down to a high tier character rather than a top tier, boo-freaking-hoo.

EDIT: McPeanuts made a really good point, and I retract my statement. I'm indifferent on it getting removed, and I still think Double is fine with or w/o the recent jHP change.
 
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It's borderline-unreactable, and was braindead in its execution. Most jHK side switches are a lot more reactable and mashable as well, I think, if we're talking about the jLK jMP jHK setup. I'm saying this because I feel like that was the justification behind Mike changing things.
Most j.HK resets are fake. You can double jump delay air tech and it beats every mixup Double can do (other than stuff like delay H Luger which is specifically to beat that defensive option select). The one I do with Beat Extend and the one Sage does with Excellabella put the opponent at a specific height that make it an actual mixup, but I don't believe there's any way for Double without an assist to get the opponent at that height.

Most good mixups in SG have easy execution and are unreactable, so it's not really like that's a justification to change this mixup specifically. If what Mike didn't like is that the reset can loop back into itself, I wish he had changed that aspect of it, rather than just nixing it entirely.
 
Why is it such a contentious opinion to say that a level 5 that still does stupid damage

This is where you are wrong in my opinion. It doesnt do any stupid damage anymore. I once was in a 2v3 situation, doing the whole midscreen lvl 5 combo, and it only did half a healthbar of my opponent character. So at an even ratio it would have been worse, which is far less than BB lvl 5.
 
This is where you are wrong in my opinion. It doesnt do any stupid damage anymore. I once was in a 2v3 situation, doing the whole midscreen lvl 5 combo, and it only did half a healthbar of my opponent character. So at an even ratio it would have been worse, which is far less than BB lvl 5.

You're telling me that with 1.3 ratio, you were only able to do around 8k total? That sounds fishy. Even if you did no super at all, that should do over 9k with barrel loop (it does around 7k on 1.0 ratio).
 
You're telling me that with 1.3 ratio, you were only able to do around 8k total? That sounds fishy. Even if you did no super at all, that should do over 9k with barrel loop (it does around 7k on 1.0 ratio).

No just the lvl 5 damage (I hit him with it, then I do the lvl 5 combo)
 
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The input Buffer after Cerebella's Dynamo was amazing.
Could we get a similar buffer for Devil Horns, due to its super long recovery it feels really awkward and inconsistent to combo with it, I find mindself avoiding combos with the move.
I think it could use a quality of life fix with some buffer afterwards or maybe even cut some of its recovery.
 
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The input Buffer after Cerebella's Dynamo was amazing.
Could we get a similar buffer for Devil Horns, due to its super long recovery it feels really awkward and inconsistent to combo with it, I find mindself avoiding combos with the move.
I think it could use a quality of life fix with some buffer afterwards or maybe even cut some of its recovery.
Namely, I'd love for things like c.lk c.mk > Devil Horns > Dynamo (side switch) feel more reliable.
 
Holy cow I'm in love with this new j. light fireball. It's what I've asked for a million times and my wish has come true! Now only if the super had the same trajectory as that so it doesn't whiff in corner combos and go off screen.

EDIT: Now before Fukua is finalized, am I the only one who still has trouble comboing m shadow after cr. fp on bigger characters? My timing sometimes feels perfect yet it doesn't grab.

If no one else is having an issue, then I'll just shut up and deal with it
 
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The input Buffer after Cerebella's Dynamo was amazing.
Could we get a similar buffer for Devil Horns, due to its super long recovery it feels really awkward and inconsistent to combo with it, I find mindself avoiding combos with the move.
I think it could use a quality of life fix with some buffer afterwards or maybe even cut some of its recovery.

The recovery and followup of this move feel really good already and you can always pick up with OTG or OTGless on lights. Also depends on heights.

am I the only one who still has trouble comboing m shadow after cr. fp

You just might be... I think you mean cr.mp, cr.hp right? I'm not getting any issues with it. Timing feels roughly the same for all weights. Just need to delay the shadow a tiny bit.
 
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I can't believe i didn't think of this before but:


When Big Band does a normal and cancels it into 4~6MP+HK he gets M Brass + assist, while in neutral 4~6MP+HK gets E-brake + assist.

When Bella does a normal and cancels it into 4~6MP+HK and immediately releases both she just gets run, while in neutral 4~6MP+HK gets 1-frame-delayed Kanchou + assist.

For Big Band it's very useful but in Bella's case it makes getting fake Kanchou + assist unnecessarily harder since pressing HK+MP for too long results in assist + actual Kanchou (= you dead) and not pressing it long enough gets you Tumbling Run + assist (= you dead, your assist is dead) and it seems like something that could use simplifying like several things already have been in the recent updates.

Same thing for Runstop and Battlebutt actually, but there's no penalty to holding them for longer.

Thoughts?
 
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Doubles air vortex still exists you just use other buttons.
Net buff once people adapt.
She has better air confirms now off jHP.

basically why i'm asking jHP and not jHK as well. or jLP jLK jMP jMK(1) fastfall or other jMK(1) options. not to mention cMP things few were using. it's gonna happen when a character has parasoul's dash and the buttons that she does, so it just seems out of place to change this one thing that will still be accessible. Mike is not one to change something based on sheer accessibility.

i feel like if jHP has to go, jHK probably should for the same or comparable reasons. all this did was force a a button change that left the structure intact, and gave her easier cHP conversions from jHP.
 
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Most j.HK resets are fake. You can double jump delay air tech and it beats every mixup Double can do (other than stuff like delay H Luger which is specifically to beat that defensive option select). The one I do with Beat Extend and the one Sage does with Excellabella put the opponent at a specific height that make it an actual mixup, but I don't believe there's any way for Double without an assist to get the opponent at that height.

Vary hits of jMP or change jHK timing or different LLMH strings rather than LMH, and jHK will keep them at the height you want. It can be raised or lowered as needed, and still provide a lot of the same timings that can't be jumped or jabbed out of. As for beating double jump late tech, H-Gun, layer an updo/BE/whatever, or jump on them with meaty jLP/jLK/jMP?

Most good mixups in SG have easy execution and are unreactable, so it's not really like that's a justification to change this mixup specifically. If what Mike didn't like is that the reset can loop back into itself, I wish he had changed that aspect of it, rather than just nixing it entirely.

word
 
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Upback jMK is strong vs certain heights for calling out air buttons/delay tech and easily converts into a combo or pretty strong pressure that you can fast fall out of.
 

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