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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

My case for why BB on point isn't good (as assist, he's a god):

His entire game plan relies on making good guesses with highly punishable moves. Throw out a bad... anything really... and you're eating a ton of damage. Once he's in combo he can mash super, throw, or BE. All of which are highly punishable. If you want to solo-Band or point-Band, you'd better have Yomi in spades. I'm seeing better players putting his parry to work, so we'll see where that takes him. But right now, I think he's the worst solo in the game.
 
Spencer said:
My case for why BB on point isn't good (as assist, he's a god):

His entire game plan relies on making good guesses with highly punishable moves. Throw out a bad... anything really... and you're eating a ton of damage. Once he's in combo he can mash super, throw, or BE. All of which are highly punishable. If you want to solo-Band or point-Band, you'd better have Yomi in spades. I'm seeing better players putting his parry to work, so we'll see where that takes him. But right now, I think he's the worst solo in the game.
Imagine this... What if big band had an assist that made stuff safe
 
A lot of Big Band's really good tools are safe or plus on block (j.LK, s.LP, L Brass Knuckles, L Cymbal Clash, etc) you don't have to go ham af to do well with him although that can work too if you're good at making reads.
 
@zeknife

Then he loses out on the thing that scares me the most... his damage. I also don't think he can keep assists as safe as others.

@mcpeanuts

But they have limitations too. Mostly range. BB is not a character you want to be point blank with. Keep him at a decent distance and he either has to come in with something unsafe or down-back waiting for you to make a move. He's just too guess reliant

I'll add this though, when I play him as solo vs 3, he's pretty scary. Just the threat of Taunted SSJ catching an assist is intimidating. But when I play solo, I think he's the worst point/solo in the game, for sure.
 
Spencer said:
Throw out a bad... anything really... and you're eating a ton of damage.
Sure, for example that massive punish a Peacock can lay on you against a spaced Brass.

Once he's in combo he can mash super, throw, or BE. All of which are highly punishable.
Are you even serious right now? "His reversals are punisheable on block" OH LORD THE TERROR

BBand has 3 DP variants with varying advantages/disadvantages, an Air Super, an EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD ground super, armored moves on the ground (which cancel into Super..)..

Once Parasoul is in a combo, she can Pillar (not even mash, the sadness), which is highly punishable

Mhh which of the two has the worse defence

But right now, I think he's the worst solo in the game.
The #1 character at beating players who are 10000x your better is the worst Solo
Okay, I guess Solo is Top Tier?
 
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The #1 assist that is beating top players? I think we all agree that BB has phenomenal assists.

I've not seen shit-all for matches of a point BB going ham and beating everyone. Did I miss a stream somewhere?
 
Spencer said:
@mcpeanuts

But they have limitations too. Mostly range. BB is not a character you want to be point blank with. Keep him at a decent distance and he either has to come in with something unsafe or down-back waiting for you to make a move.
Being at distance isn't bad for Big Band. At mid screen his options are better than most characters, I think. Full screen isn't optimal, but if I was full screen I would dash forward until I was at mid screen.
Spencer said:
The #1 assist that is beating top players? I think we all agree that BB has phenomenal assists.

I've not seen shit-all for matches of a point BB going ham and beating everyone. Did I miss a stream somewhere?
I feel like I put some work in with Big Band at GUTS 3. Game 1 against Zidiane was like all Big Band, my other characters didn't do shit.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Being at distance isn't bad for Big Band. At mid screen his options are better than most characters, I think. Full screen isn't optimal, but if I was full screen I would dash forward until I was at mid screen.

I feel like I put some work in with Big Band at GUTS 3. Game 1 against Zidiane was like all Big Band, my other characters didn't do shit.

How many resets/burst baits/counter hit combos/ anti mash set ups do you have with big band? It doesn't seem like anyone tries to play the reset game with big band too much. Maybe a combo into a throw into another combo into a low, but that's the extent that I've seen so far.
 
dekillsage said:
How many resets/burst baits/counter hit combos/ anti mash set ups do you have with big band? It doesn't seem like anyone tries to play the reset game with big band too much. Maybe a combo into a throw into another combo into a low, but that's the extent that I've seen so far.
Workin on it. There's some stuff @ClarenceMage has been showing me that I've been working on but it's not ready for prime time yet.
 
BB is awesome on point @Spencer.

All he really needs is something to make his overhead safe on block, or his beat extend safe on block... Or both (hlnl, cerecopter) and the big dude is in it to win it.


Also he doesnt RELY on his unsafe stuff to win. He relies on his safe stuff to force people into positions where he can make a read for his unsafe stuff. Sure he makes bad reads sometimes, but you'd be surprised how many of his reads are good compared to bad when he's using his safe tools to force issues.


He can put up a ridiculously good fight with just j.lk and throw and cymbal alone.
 
We dont have any headless fortunes out here in au :(

That said, his bad matchups seems to be like fukua, val, double but those matchups are like still one read away from being BB wins... He turns bad matchups into ones that he wins... Which is the weirdest thing there ever was, but its there.
 
keninblack said:
Parasoul poops all over Big Band what in samhill.


We dont have any good parasouls either. But you cant fireball him for free at all. And your j.lp gets beat by his j.lk and he can armor through your pillars as well. Also, he can just not contest your j.lp with his j.lk and instead do a cymbal and beat it, or he can beat extend your j.lp, or he can ssj it. So he has options against your j.lp or j.hp spam and he has options against your fireball game...
What else you gonna do? Spam tears? He can double jump around higher than you and come down on your head with j.lk.


It isnt as lopsided as i say. The matchup feels evenish when i play parasoul against BB and im au's best parasoul ATM which is sad, but its there. On the other end of the matchup i didnt feel particularly phased by magicmans parasoul when i was using BB against her. So thats all i can really say.
 
I find the PS v BB matchup slightly in PS favor, but not grossly so. It's one of the few matchups where Parasoul can just walk forward.
 
Dime_x said:
We dont have any good parasouls
I believe Sev still plays. There's also SonicFox and I guess Ken because he'll probably deny it. We also have Uzu.
 
alexpi said:
I find the PS v BB matchup slightly in PS favor, but not grossly so. It's one of the few matchups where Parasoul can just walk forward.


Walk forward into lp brass? Appproaching BB is no easy to do thing unless you have a double jump that gets over his j.lk

@LuxadeSwag

I was talking about out here in australia, most people on the forums know i live in au so i dont need to mention it.
 
Maybe I'm being skewed and BB isn't terrible, but it is a winning MU for PW. I'd freely admit that.

The only thing BB has that infuriates me to the end of the planet is getting hit by cymbal jump while up-backing... an overhead that you can't up-back occasionally? Fuck you BB... fuck you.
 
Spencer said:
Maybe I'm being skewed and BB isn't terrible, but it is a winning MU for PW. I'd freely admit that.

The only thing BB has that infuriates me to the end of the planet is getting hit by cymbal jump while up-backing... an overhead that you can't up-back occasionally? Fuck you BB... fuck you.


@Spencer

Pw seems to win it. At least my pw destroys any BB out here iirc though its been awhile since i played a good one that wasnt magicmans. But against pw iirc i found that i could give her troubles with just my dash jump j.lk and my double jump j.lk...


She destroys his armor but he doesnt have to use his armor in the matchup. A-train is generally a fools gambit, but cymbal, double jump, j.lk and beat extend are not... At least from what ive played against.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Most likely people feel that her "inability" to kill is the main factor.

@Cynical reading this right now believes that her normals are ass. no DP, Nothing she does really shines about her that other characters do better.

Most believe that her main ability to being a movement point character is overshadowed by the majority of the cast that they feel can do better than val. and yes cynical i'm tagging you because you're one of the people i'm outright just annoyed at. I don't see how half of you val players undermine her abilities so much.
@IsaVulpes basically covered the reason Val sucks now; she was never anything other than shorthand for "do damage off of my assists", and assist play was nerfed. Oh, and now that Eliza exists, Eliza does that better. And has better pokes, and more damage, and is just as good at holding the corner, and is better on block thanks to MK Servant, and has good enough mixup to hit people.

Fortune has every movement option that Val does. Fortune is generally considered "low-mid" these days. Look at Fortune's and Val's movesets. That in and of itself should show you just how fucked Val is.

It's not a coincidence that my three-week Eliza is more effective than my 10-month Val.
 
Perhaps, but it's true. There's a reason why even when she was considered the best character in the game, "Solo Val" was something of a joke and never taken seriously.
 
Cynical said:
Fortune has every movement option that Val does. Fortune is generally considered "low-mid" these days. Look at Fortune's and Val's movesets. That in and of itself should show you just how fucked Val is.
Stop.
Cynical said:
It's not a coincidence that my three-week Eliza is more effective than my 10-month Val.
Not how it works. Eliza's still new, nobody has a lot of matchup experience against her.
 
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"Fortune has every movement option Val does".

Yeah 'kay, let me know when Fortune's backdash shits on the low/throw mixup game everyone else has to deal with.

I've been picking up different characters as of late and the difference between Fortune and Val and their different powerspots is actually pretty damn clear to see.
 
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Also most of the things he said about Eliza. But hey, he's far gone, at this point I think everyone should just let him be.


I don't really know who to call low tier any more, I don't think there is one with Painwheel's buffs and Big Band being so powerful as assist his slight shortcomings on point seem small compared to the gain you get for having his assists.
 
MK servant is safe? also dosnt Val have really good Mix up also though? am I missing something?
 
MK Servant is +2 on block. Not a tight blockstring, but you can cover for that by varying where you use it (mixup between using it after c.mk/c.mp/1 hit of s.hp/2 hits of s.hp).

Val's mixup is better, yes, but Eliza is better at keeping control on a successfully block, and her high/low/throw/crossup at midscreen game is good enough that you can still hit people.
 
Fortune has every movement option val does. This is true. But fortune doesnt have beta air shuriken now (that stupid ass broken move) fortunes forward airdash is a pale comparison to vals forward airdash, vals moves further and goes higher. Fortune doesnt have the big buttons that val does, and fortune has no ground fireball, fortune has no air cancelable backdash into forward dash overhead that usually crosses up, and fortunes run is slower than vals. Fortune also cant corner carry easily off of any confirm and make her opponent play the whole game in the corner... As easily as val can. And I'm pretty sure fortune and val have near the same damage nowadays. Fortune gets the head as compensation for all these things and gets her headless damage nerfed as well. Also fortune cant double jump airdash j.mk to crossover people and and hella overextend into pressure while calling an assist to cover the ground all while higher than most characters can really do anything about.


...
 
err im getting that it is -2 but the opponent could just chicken block after the snap and it ends up -15ish probably not the best block string, her moves are almost all unsafe on block though, val has safer moves than them im pretty sure
 
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Arcana said:
err im getting that it is -2 but the opponent could just chicken block after the snap and it ends up -15ish probably not the best block string, her moves are almost all unsafe on block though, val has safer moves than them im pretty sure

Eliza is also more susceptible to push block. She has options but they are either weak to pushblock themselves or very unsafe.

If Val gets pushblocked she's even more + and can just dash back in.
 
Not to mention those gigantic hurtboxes on all of those gigantic hitboxes. Touch a button and at worst you'll often trade.
 
So on a different note, does anyone use tournament results as factor when making a tier list? I mean we all say peacock is the best, but tj is the only one topping with her. Like maybe Cerebella can be S tier since top 4 of evo had 4 bellas. Or maybe have a list where we factor with a scale like tournament usage, match ups, neutral, damage output, meter gain, etc. and just weigh it all and average it up. I'm just throwing ideas out there, feel free to ignore me.
 
Adeveis said:
So on a different note, does anyone use tournament results as factor when making a tier list? I mean we all say peacock is the best, but tj is the only one topping with her. Like maybe Cerebella can be S tier since top 4 of evo had 4 bellas. Or maybe have a list where we factor with a scale like tournament usage, match ups, neutral, damage output, meter gain, etc. and just weigh it all and average it up. I'm just throwing ideas out there, feel free to ignore me.
Sadly, we don't have enough tournament representation.
 
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Any tier list is up in the air at this point with characters receiving pretty dramatic changes every 3-4 months.
 
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Yes, exactly.

But an off my head tier list would go something like:

Val
Peacock
Filia
Bella
Painwheel
Bigband
Double
Fortune
Parasoul
Squigly
Eliza




The reasons:

Painwheel has been buffed to the max and no longer has bad matchups that either beat extend assist or brass assist cant make better or even. I dont fear peacock when i have brass assist. I dont fear getting rushed down when i have beat extend. The only thing i find to be really weak about pw at this point is that she can be outmanoeuvred... But thats hardly a weakness and just means more hit gud.

I have bell and filia over painwheel because of team utility combined with point abilities.


Peacock is in a state of flux right now. But shes top tier in the current retail. I dont base this on her being in beta since i have a feeling her beta changes are far from set in stone.

Big band has the games 2 best assists, and is a force on point to have to try and attack but has good attacking skills. His lack of mobility combined with aerial range is why i have him this low.


Eliza, was a complete force to be reckoned with in beta when her hurtboxes hadnt been adjusted, but now that her hurtboxes actually extend before her hitboxes, shes a hell of a lot easier to deal with. She still needs time to grow.


But thats just how i see things at this moment. I could easily switch the entire tier list almost upside down and draw reasonable conclusions for it being that way. So its rather compressed either way. Parasoul doesnt look right being so low, but "low" in theirs instance means little because the balance is very spot on in this game.

Brass assist turns peacock from an s-tier character to an A-tier character when shes playing against it, and val can have issues with beat extend and dp assists. After those 2 matchups and fukua i feel its largely just a test of whos the better player rather than the tier list.


I didnt rank fukua becaus i have no experience against good ones. We do have an intermediate fukua out here though and the simple fireball,shadow,fireball pattern can be somewhat of a pain to get around. If a good player were to use her i might be inclined to think fukua is easily top 3 with all that damage she does and the fact that she can zone as well.
 
I'd place Parasoul somewhere near PW. Covered by assists, she's damn fine. My personal view is that she is top three with the right team behind her, but time will tell on that one I guess.

Squig I think is likely too low as well. But I'm not really sure where to place her. But a good Squig is horrifying if she can get you into a combo with a reset game that is as scary or more so than anyone else in the cast.
 
Squigs is definitely too low. We're JUST now getting good Squig players.

It'll be a while till we see a fully optimized band and eliza. the hurtboxes aren't the problem if you're not so predictable. the J mk is STILL GDLK.

Filia's S HP is still gdlk and her j hp.

Something tells me if you play her like val with assist and know how to pick your fights she's a forced to be reckoned with.

Also fortune is still underdeveloped cause NO ONE decided to learn headless.
 
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