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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Thomasorus said:
Don't say that. :'D
I'm not asking for a kusoge, there's enough on the market to fill this role. What I'm saying is that the game could use so basic, elementary, fun things. And super jumping very high is fun. It's like going fast in Sonic or a good recoil feeling with a gun in a FPS. It's a good feeling and I don't care if I hit a wall or if I have to aim again right after, because it felt good. That's all and I wish there were more things you can genuinely enjoy from the basic level of your brain in SG. It's something so basic you probably don't notice it because you're going deeper in the game than me but well... It exists.
If you're not saying "I want fun things and I don't care how it affects balance", you're going to have to rephrase what you're asking, because that's what I'm hearing and to me that's what kusoge is. I'm not trying to misrepresent you.
 
I also agree that the 55% SJ's were a very fun and simple pleasure. I just like jumping super high and having full control afterwards. Not because it adds anything good or constructive to high level play, but because jumping itself was just fun to do.

That said, I'm still currently of the opinion that the new SJ is an unnecessary change. It doesn't really seem to address any actual issues or grievances and most people don't seem to be having much fun with the change. It's only been about a day though, so I'm going to eagerly continue to play with the beta changes to get a good feel for the change.
 
Mr. X said:
He isnt concerned with the whole package, he just wants dumb super jumps in.
then someone kindly tell him that this beta discussion is for BALANCE issues. Again i wish there was a rule to regulate certain members from posting in here or someone moderate posts. w.e tho.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
then someone kindly tell him that this beta discussion is for BALANCE issues. Again i wish there was a rule to regulate certain members from posting in here or someone moderate posts. w.e tho.

Who ever said that this discussion was just for balance issues? The beta experiment itself isn't there to balance anything, it's simply there to see if it makes the game more fun or interesting in any way. Saying "I like this change because it's fun" is perfectly valid feedback as long as the person making the statement at least goes far enough as to explain why they feel that way.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
then someone kindly tell him that this beta discussion is for BALANCE issues. Again i wish there was a rule to regulate certain members from posting in here or someone moderate posts. w.e tho.
Although I don't agree with that guy, I think it's valid for people to talk about changes they think are fun. This game isn't only for tournament players.
 
I like the 10% higher super jumps actually. It gives you more options for getting over big ass assists like H Brass.

Combos are mostly the same too.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure there's an input buffer on LK Spiral to s.LK links. They don't seem like they're hard enough to be actually 2 frames but maybe I'm just biased from my experience playing SF4.
 
megamands posted only one time?

i'm fine with the double quotation on me though.

Now back to the question that seemingly go missed. Did anyone test out things with the assist and the reversal window?
 
mcpeanuts said:
If you're not saying "I want fun things and I don't care how it affects balance", you're going to have to rephrase what you're asking, because that's what I'm hearing and to me that's what kusoge is. I'm not trying to misrepresent you.

Mr. X said:
He isnt concerned with the whole package, he just wants dumb super jumps in.

If we were talking about a game designed by Capcom with no updates (or worse, a game by done by drunken interns of Arc System Works like HNK), no following and all, I would be like everyone here : keeping the game as it is because I prefer it as it is now than totally broken. But since we're talking about SG, about L0 and about you all players that made a good job at testing things, I am confident that such a change to superjumps will be taken seriously, bugs will be reported and the game will be balanced. But more fun because jumping high is fun.


Dreamepitaph said:
then someone kindly tell him that this beta discussion is for BALANCE issues. Again i wish there was a rule to regulate certain members from posting in here or someone moderate posts. w.e tho.

You seem to think I'm uneducated about fighting games (i'm not but even if I was, it's not making my opinion less important) because I "defend fun things against serious business balance". FYI and the sake of the thread, I'd like to remind everyone that a good feeling is as important as balance in a game. I don't have a competitive level on SG most of you have here so I never came to argue as I know it's not my place but to talk about balance, but I think I have enough experience in fighting games to discuss feeling.

To Mr.X : sorry about off topic with Dreamepitaph, I'll continue to read and only answer questions.

Edit: woops edited a few errors, sorry about that.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
megamands posted only one time?

i'm fine with the double quotation on me though.

Now back to the question that seemingly go missed. Did anyone test out things with the assist and the reversal window?
Couple pages back. 4f made beating assists too easy so its at 3f which no one commented on.

Nobody seems in favor of a smaller reversal window.
 
SonicFox5000 said:
Pfffft whens pair play mode
me and @dekillsage could just be the best
sigh.... you crack me up, yeah would be crazy.

anyways fro what i'm getting from the new sj changes is that things are still a little too different for people. and granted i like stupid jumps this new sj isn't the right feel of SG. don't get me wrong it's fun and it opens up some things with neutral, but Skull Girls has made this sorta gameplay imprint and this change kinda messes it up. hmmmm... just going to need more time to feel it out in my opinion.
 
Thomasorus said:
.

To Mr.X : sorry about off topic with Dreamepitaph, I'll continue to read and only answer questions.

Edit: woops edited a few errors, sorry about that.
I dont think you did anything wrong.

On topic: Super super jump might be funner in and of itself but took away fun overall. It was a negative gain in fun imo.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
why not just make a option to select jumpgirls? that'd be fun right?!
Nah, because then those that like it would play that and those that don't would play regular. And then... split community. Same reason I don't like options for game speeds.
 
apparently people do infact liked super jumps which surprises the ever living crap out of me. so why not?
 
My opinion is that overall, this is too dramatic a change too late in the game's lifecycle. Combos that I rely on no longer work, and so much in formation out there about combos and tech and what not would be now completely invalidated by this change. It would be fun, but it would be a very different game. I could see it as part of a Street Fighter-esque new version of the game, (like "Super" or "Ultra") or a sequel if one happens, but it's too much of a change to the game right now. Fun to play with in beta, though.
 
I'm struggling to find actual practical non-gimmicky applications for the momentum nudge in combos/setups that aren't just a new way to do something I already knew how to do in the regular game (and doesn't work the normal way in this experiment)

Really, having tried this out a bunch I find I'm not a fan of tinkering with the launcher/super jump physics that everyone has gotten used by now, unless it's made necessary by some really significant improvement to offset the inconvenience
 
Nothing about my post was negative. I said I applause mike for being a be to sift through all these suggestions

So ya, thanks.

Fukua needs old fireballs back. Not a fan of cool down for a zoning character.
 
Cynical said:
1. Why should a game be designed for hype, anyways? It seems to me like it's a better idea to design a game for the people actually playing it than for spectators. The E-sports mentality does nothing but create shit games.
It's great how you quote a post where I say 100 things, and then still manage to create a strawman and attack someting I DIDN'T say. Is this some kind of special talent?

2. Why is "failing a DP and getting hit" not hype but "dropping a 2F link and getting reversal'd" hype?
I also didn't say anywhere that dropping your combo is hype, so I guess it IS a special talent.

P.S. As written in the post (THAT is something I said!), a player has the option NOT to do the 2f link. If they go for the optimized combo, and fail it, it's their fault.
That is very different from not being able to reversal (where I can't just go "Oh well, I will instead do the easier thing; LP.Updo has a bigger reversal window than HP.Updo")

3. I'm far more excited when I see a reversal in ST than when I see a long combo in any game.
We could of course go to 1f reversal windows, which randomly disappear due to frameskip, and see whether that helps the game!

For the record, I'm not a combo guy. But I can see the appeal, to some extend.

(Oh, and in the case of Eliza's lk spiral link, not having that link means you literally cannot do combos that use the full undizzy bar. It's that crippling.)
"It's that crippling". Why is that crippling? I reset so early so often that I doubt it would really matter if you ended your combo earlier (for the record, my Peacock combo up until 2? weeks ago entered the last string at 155 Undizzy)

But okay, let me look at this:

- First thing of note is that LK Spiral into sLP is a 4f link (it's +10, sLP is 6f startup), into sLK is 3f (7f startup). Not sure where your 2f link is coming from.
I'll presume that you mean Osiris into sLK is hard (it seems to be whiffing weirdly), cus sLP you can literally just mash out (I hit it on first try and haven't missed it since)?

- Let's create a combo without Osiris-sLK
.. Owait, CaioLugon has one posted in his BnB compendium - I mean, he uses Osiris-sLK, but he didn't use sLP anywhere, so I don't see why one wouldn't be able to substitute?

- Let me just do it anyway (tested on Filia, no guarantee on char universality):
cLK cMK cHP xx M.Servant
Dash, Jump
- jHP ad jMP jHP
cMK cHP
- jLP jMP jHP ad jLK jMP
sLPx3 sMKx2 sHPx2 xx H.Spiral xx Slaughter

I did this in 10 minutes.
It enters the last string at *230 Ud* (going up to 315) and doesn't even have an Osiris-sLP link (which I originally planned to include, but it didn't fit anymore, bummer!).
It deals 7089 damage (400 less -5%!- than her "BnB" according to CaioLugon, which should be quite okay for dodging that link you don't want to practice), and the hardest thing about it was remembering Eliza's special-motions, as I haven't played this character since like the 3rd of her beta weeks (I kept doing fun stuff like trying to call M.Servant with QCB-HP, or pressing sMP during the ender)

I have literally no idea about the character or how any of her strings work, and made a combo that does use the full Ud bar and doesn't use either of the Osiris links.

I don't really understand your problem..
 
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mcpeanuts said:
This is the only part of what you said I don't really agree with. You can still pick a direction and hope you guess right
Sure you can guess right, but what then? Blocking doesn't really put you anywhere you want to be, especially if the opponent got a lockdown assist at their disposal.
PBGC is "reversaling" again, and if you don't, I'm pretty sure someone like Headless Fortune with Copter backup would be able to just lock you down indefinitely until you are chipped out?

But yeah, it's kinda beside the point.

@Thomasorus and whoever else, the problem with 155% SJ is/was that the game is clearly not build to accommodate them.
Just looking at normals/specials (and to that extend, assists), nothing in the game aside from Liza M.Servant and Double H.Luger was able to even get anywhere close to hitting somebody at that height.

You'd either have to revamp everything (won't happen), or pressing 1-9 on the joystick beats 99% of options the opponent has at their disposal, which.. creates a rather questionable neutral.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
It's great how you quote a post where I say 100 things, and then still manage to create a strawman and attack someting I DIDN'T say. Is this some kind of special talent?
You keep focusing on whether people getting hit when they attempt reversals is "hype" and that long combos are "hype", so it certainly sounds like you're asking for the game to be developed for the spectators, not the players.


I also didn't say anywhere that dropping your combo is hype, so I guess it IS a special talent.
All the while this doesn't even add anything to the game. Hard combos can be fun to drill, and you'll be proud of yourself when you pull them off in a match and the crowd gets hype.
"Making the reversal window 1-2f does nothing but make the game FAR less accessible, while also letting people randomly score hits they don't deserve (where the opponent knows what they'll do, and picks the appropriate counter, but misses his execution). Hype!"
Major premise: (you didn't say this, but I think you'll agree): people drop tight links sometimes.
Minor premise 1: Hard combos are fine, and are hype
Minor premise 2: Tight reversal windows aren't fine, because they aren't hype.
Conclusion: If un-hype things are bad, and combos that will be dropped sometimes aren't bad, then combo drops are hype.

Oh, and the reason why I'm not considering LK spiral into s.lp is because that doesn't work midscreen; it whiffs on some characters, and on the rest it pushes them far enough that the final HK spiral will whiff, even with the forward movement of a c.mk.
 
Cynical said:
You keep focusing on whether people getting hit when they attempt reversals is "hype" and that long combos are "hype", so it certainly sounds like you're asking for the game to be developed for the spectators, not the players.





Major premise: (you didn't say this, but I think you'll agree): people drop tight links sometimes.
Minor premise 1: Hard combos are fine, and are hype
Minor premise 2: Tight reversal windows aren't fine, because they aren't hype.
Conclusion: If un-hype things are bad, and combos that will be dropped sometimes aren't bad, then combo drops are hype.

Oh, and the reason why I'm not considering LK spiral into s.lp is because that doesn't work midscreen; it whiffs on some characters, and on the rest it pushes them far enough that the final HK spiral will whiff, even with the forward movement of a c.mk.
Are you seriously getting into an argument with the dude about what he thinks his argument is? How do you see that ending?
 
welp guys i'm wasting my time with looking at notifications that i thought were going to be thoughts about the beta but again see a argument completely about an argument. will back i promise! *unwatches*
 
So tried the newer super jump change

I actually have no issues with the jump itself so far. My biggest complaint now is just that I will sometimes charge back mid air combo with cerebella and the way I move back now during the air combo will cause it to drop which is really annoying.

Also did I miss something or is Beowulf not supposed to be allowed to DHC into anti-air super anymore? Because he totally can't.

I also don't seem to notice much difference with the launch height being the same across all characters outside a few character specific stuff I did.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Are you seriously getting into an argument with the dude about what he thinks his argument is? How do you see that ending?
How will it end, or how should it end?

In a better world, he'd realize that his post wasn't saying what he wanted it to say, and would try to communicate more clearly. I don't hold out hope for that happening, though.
 
Well since this is a big change and seems to be a pretty big divide for the community I guess I can throw in my 2 cents. Personally I like the super jumps a lot. While I personally didn't lose too many combos for characters that I play regularly it was fun for me to find new routes that were now available. For characters I didn't play regularly (Valentine, Parasoul) it was more difficult but I still enjoyed it. It seems like combos should be a bit shorter but not by much. Then again I haven't played with it too much or see other people play so I think that its more that we need more time and then combos will be regular length again.

As far as how it affects neutral though I think that it would be more detrimental than not because of how much you can avoid up there. The only projectile that can really touch you is SOID (at least off the top of my head) and that isn't going to be much of a detriment I don't think. And even if you do head up there and score a hit there will be almost no conversion without meter and even with meter it might be pretty sketchy. While it might make some air supers have a bit more utility in neutral I can't see it affecting the game much.

I would like to keep it because it feels fun to me and I personally enjoy Marvel 2 a lot. Though maybe it can be toned down a bit. I don't know; I'm just spit-balling right now. As far as the assist change I didn't see too much of a difference. If that change didn't stick it wouldn't be a problem for me. I'm all for a faster Painwheel flight speed though.

Edit: Oh man. I didn't even see there was a new version today. I was talking about the 12/21 version. I'll have to come back once I get off work and see the new-er super jump
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
welp guys i'm wasting my time with looking at notifications that i thought were going to be thoughts about the beta but again see a argument completely about an argument. will back i promise! *unwatches*
You don't have to keep on reminding us of when you decide to unwatch the thread. :/

A lot of people were saying they liked how Skullgirls neutral was more horizontal then vertical, but some also liked how super jumps were higher, so this new adjustment is a nice compromise. I'm still in love with being able to adjust my movement during a super jump.

I'm all in favor for a larger reversal window. Saying it'll make the game even more mashy makes no sense. If someone is gonna try to reversal, they're going to try and reversal whether or not the reversal window is 2f or 10f; they just care about getting out. And even still, you can still beat reversals the same way by purposefully ending pressure and blocking. Not sure why people are so afraid to do that.
 
The more I play with it, the less I mind the new-er super jump. I just really really hate how I can't charge moves mid air combo because I start floating backwards.

EDIT: The change does seem to screw over a lot of BigBand's combos though. HP > j.MP > j.HP doesn't work anymore and neither does MK > j.LP.
 
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Hilary said:
I've never liked MvC2 or MvC3; it's the VSav/GGXX inspirations and SG's own unique things that keep me interested in SG.

Could not agree more.

mcpeanuts said:
Although I don't agree with that guy, I think it's valid for people to talk about changes they think are fun. This game isn't only for tournament players.

Yeah I mean I wouldn't want people to only be able to give feedback based on how good they are, I care about the balance primarily but I'm not a top player.

Jason said:
I like the 10% higher super jumps actually. It gives you more options for getting over big ass assists like H Brass.

I wouldn't mind the extra height but I hate the air control. You should have to commit to a jump.
 
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I'm down for experiments, even extreme ones, but when they're in for less than even 24 hours, it feels like a troll. That's not meant as an accusation, but the change was in just long enough for a kneejerk reaction and then it was drastically modified again. It wasn't enough time to even see what all it broke, let alone find new possibilities. Hell, it wasn't enough time for many people to even try it.
 
Cynical said:
1. Why should a game be designed for hype, anyways? It seems to me like it's a better idea to design a game for the people actually playing it than for spectators. The E-sports mentality does nothing but create shit games.

2. Why is "failing a DP and getting hit" not hype but "dropping a 2F link and getting reversal'd" hype?

3. I'm far more excited when I see a reversal in ST than when I see a long combo in any game.

(Oh, and in the case of Eliza's lk spiral link, not having that link means you literally cannot do combos that use the full undizzy bar. It's that crippling.)
This is a rare instance where I completely agree with you.

As someone in a similar thread on Dustloop put it (arguing over a 2f reversal window too!) changing the reversal window is either going to make performing pressure easier and breaking pressure harder or the reverse. Personally I prefer to have performing pressure be the easier option as you have got yourself into the position of advantage and in my opinion it should be up to the opponent to break that position.

Well I don't completely agree with you, while Osiris Spiral is one of my least favourite special moves, it serves another function too in being quite safe on block. This is huge for Eliza because her mediums just kinda suck on block so having that option makes her safe on block without risking the couch/divekick for a pressure reset.
 
What if you lost steering in the air after I press an attack button or after an attack connects. Havent found, seen mentioned or thought up something where steering during a combo is useful?
 
To kneejerk reactions:

A kneejerk reaction is often the BEST kind of reaction to get. It shows how people/a person feels about a change at the outset of a thing. My kneejerk reaction to sf4 rufus divekicks and crouchtech os in general was that i hated it. 6 years later my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. In sg over the course of 2 and a half years now, the only thing ive changed my mind on as far as kneejerk is, was my hate of pbgc. At the outset i hated them because they were used to very consistently break my lockdown pressure, but in the same situation if i were in it, if i pbgc'd into deathcrawl, i would ALWAYS get reversal USS'd even if that bella player were right in the middle of an attack and since that particular matchup was the one i played the most at the time, of course i was bound to hate the mechanic which gave me basically nothing but gave my opponent so much. What changed my mind eventually was when the complaints that i made were addressed, through no account of me, to make it so that reversaling a reversal was no longer possible if one left themselves open to said reversal.


As far as easy reversals and hard reversals go:


I'm generally a fan of whichever ive gotten used to at the current time. There are HUGE benefits to either style and in the end it mostly comes down to a design perspective of where the developer wants to take their game.

But i do think that there is one other consideration that no one has mentioned yet as far as easy and hard reversals go:


It makes sense to make a game with not so great offense or that is known to be turtly... Like cvs2 and non divekick matchups in in sf4, to have hard reversals to combat and facilitate more offense since the game is turtly by nature. Which can be a very good thing.

The opposite is also true.

If a game is super duper highly offensive like sg is, it can be a very good thing to have easier reversals to mitigate some of the offense in the game.

I like offensive games more than defensive ones, so at the end of the day i like the easier reversal timings in order to keep some of the offense in check.

In sf4 however i would prefer a tighter reversal window to keep some of the games defense in check. But sf4 is a bad example because the game is all over the place with characters like viper and fuerte and rufus on one end of the spectrum, and then characters like Honda and guile on the other.
 
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