Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

[guitalex2007]

Is the now 8f command grab ever gaining any more invincibility? I mean, comparing to Diamond Drop and Merry Go Rilla is pretty underwhelming. The best part about it before was the speed, but RIP that I guess.

 

[Mike_Z]

Is the now 8f command grab ever gaining any more invincibility? I mean, comparing to Diamond Drop and Merry Go Rilla is pretty underwhelming. The best part about it before was the speed, but RIP that I guess.

Actually the best part about it before was the fact that it added an untechable throw to her arsenal, which meant that you had to look out for that in addition to divekicks and a repeatable low.
But why do I expect people to realize that anything is useful that isn't super-fast, armored, invincible, or overhead.

It'll get invincibility right after Cerebella gets a run-dash, a divekick, a fireball, and an air super.

 

[guitalex2007]

But why do I expect people to realize that anything is useful that isn't super-fast, armored, invincible, or overhead.

I don't know. You made the game. And play it. You should be used to this by now.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Is the now 8f command grab ever gaining any more invincibility? I mean, comparing to Diamond Drop and Merry Go Rilla is pretty underwhelming.

I got another thing that's underwhelming: Bella's projectile game when compared with Fukua's.

 

[Mike_Z]

I don't know. You made the game. And play it. You should be used to this by now.

I should be, you're right. I just have this THING where I want people to enjoy the game, so complaints bother me. When will I realize complaints are infinitely easier than thinking. :^(

 

[guitalex2007]

I should be, you're right. I just have this THING where I want people to enjoy the game, so complaints bother me. When will I realize complaints are infinitely easier than thinking. :^(

People complained about how incomplete Fukua felt.

 

[IsaVulpes]

When's Mortuary Drop becoming 20f faster? It's kind of underwhelming when compared to Fukua's command throw.

 

[guitalex2007]

When's Mortuary Drop becoming 20f faster? It's kind of underwhelming when compared to Fukua's command throw.

Give it the same range and you got a deal.

 

[Iphantom]

I don't know this topic turned into giving Val an unreactable command grab but sign me up.

Also on thinking about it I think I'm fine with the Dynamo thing. Excellebella and/or Devil Horns would have done the trick in all those videos dekillsage posted. I don't know if any level one should cover as much space in front and above as Dynamo did. I wouldn't have even thought of mashing super with Valentine in most of those situations.

 

[guitalex2007]

I don't know this topic turned into giving Val an unreactable command grab but sign me up.

Vulpes always likes to make his points by making a completely different point.

No, I dont want that lol

 

[mcpeanuts]

Vulpes always likes to make his points by making a completely different point.

No, I dont want that lol

I think the point he's trying to make is that asking for Fukua's command grabs to be as good as Bellas is ridiculous, and is making this point by asking for other things that are (to him) equally ridiculous.

 

[IsaVulpes]

The point he's making is that Bella is based around her command grabs while Fukua is based around her projectile game, so obviously Bella's grabs will be better than Fukua's.
Valentine's command grab is a nice extra that you toss in once a year where the opponent doesn't expect it; Fukua's command grab is an integral part to her mixup game due to the lack of a fast high, so obviously giving Valentine the same command grab as Fukua has is going to spell terror.

Some characters are better at some things than other characters, that's what character variety *IS*. Saying "Fukua's command grab seems underwhelming compared to Bella's" is the same thing as stating "Ringlet Spike seems underwhelming compared to the George/Doom combo, looks like Filia's projectile game is worse than Peacock's" .. oh fuckin' really? That's the very IDEA.

 

[guitalex2007]

while Fukua is based around her projectile game

I'm not so sure about this. The best part about her air fireball game was both the hitstun and the bouncing, and both are gone.

I think she is supposed to be whatever you use her for. You can rush with her, zone with her, pretend you're Bella, but she's not going to be particularly good at either. How else do you explain me and worldjem getting to top 8 with completely different playstyles using Fukua?

 

[Age]

To me the best part of her air fireball game was always the angle on the HP fireball, especially for tiger knee ones.

I just played the beta now and the air fireballs were bouncing so I guess it changed again? I was punishing air fireballs with super which was cool, I didn't even realise that was changed this patch.

I also played as bella and tried out some dynamo stuff. Seems like her incoming dynamo gimmick is gone (good luck mixing up filia now). Otherwise it just feels kinda like vanilla dynamo for anti airs.

 

[dekillsage]

Holy shit, you people are fucking unbelievable.

Gregor trades with a baited level 1 and you people are calling for nerfs? This is worse than the time Gregor got nerfed because EKG was too good.

Doesn't actually always trade. If you do it right it beats dynamo every time. Though there are also times where it will hit but just not finish lol

 

[dekillsage]

I also played as bella and tried out some dynamo stuff. Seems like her incoming dynamo gimmick is gone (good luck mixing up filia now). Otherwise it just feels kinda like vanilla dynamo for anti airs.

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. Also you don't need dynamo to mix up filia on incoming lol.

 

[Age]

you don't need dynamo to mix up filia on incoming lol.

pm me pls

 

[MegamanDS]

Beta Experiments
- Fukua's BFFs will not step out of the corner if your back is to the wall, so you won't get crossed up during the startup and miss. Thanks worldjem!

good, always didn't like this but never brought it up cause it wasn't a big deal

Beta Experiments

- Fukua's BFFs combos off HK drill again, but throws dodged by BFFs at the beginning will still recover in time to block.

Fine with this

- Fukua's Drill of My Dreams startup returned to normal length (4f); air version now goes downward (hey look new frames!) and she can OTG after it in the corner.

like this much better than up drill! :^)

Beta Experiments

- Fukua's airthrow returned to untechable knockdown, but removed the ability to supercancel the recovery so you can't combo off it at all.

I'm fine with this trade off

Beta Experiments
- Hitstun of Fukua's fireballs now falls off as they travel, starts at close to the original game's value (~39f) and ends up around 19f after travelling for 14f.

My zoning game revolved around them coming in and me hitting them with j. hk xx fireball to combo. I got a feeling that will be never coming back now that this change has happened. If people really think that conversion was too good, I would rather decrease damage for combos that start with j. hk by X% and keep that conversion.

Beta Experiments
- Fukua's fireball damage now 600, chip 200; air fireballs bounce again.

Again, I agree with lower damage but give the bounce since I was a zoner, the bounce helps zone and hit peacock from full screen.

Beta Experiments
- Fukua can't attack or block while falling after an air fireball, but she can double-jump (and block or attack after double-jumping). Possibly an interesting tradeoff because she's stuck in the air for longer if she doublejumps.

Again as stated above, disagree with this because lp fireball doesn't go directly under me so if they getting in on me, for zoning purposes I do lp fireball then a falling lk if they are waiting below for me. This kills a little part of my game. MAYBE if the double jump can have a 2nd fireball? But I would still rather have a falling attack than 2 air fireballs.




But like guitalex said, people use her with different playstyles. Worldjem says he is fine with these changes but for me, they affect me right in my core gameplay so I'm probably taking it harder than anyone else.

 

[Cadenza]

i'm actually cool with all of this. i'm jsut looking at the stuff now. not actually playing when i get home i'll run sets and see how this goes. finally i now see a purpose for air drill......oh boy here goes some attempts at tech.

 

[Arcana]

from point blank the hitstun still isnt enough imo cant do j.HK into fireball anymore from directly above the opponent

 

[RAT__BABY]

I personally think that the hitstun nerf and the air recovery nerf might be fine on their own, but too much of a hit with both of them together.

 

[guitalex2007]

Can we let it rock for now? Let's get on the lab and play some to see if it's really that big of an issue.

 

[Negus Eyoel]

hitstun nerf is big but imo was really needed. some of the confirms you could get off of it was kinda ridiculous. recovery change really hurts and imo should be reverted

 

[Jason]

Holy shit, you people are fucking unbelievable.

Gregor trades with a baited level 1 and you people are calling for nerfs? This is worse than the time Gregor got nerfed because EKG was too good.

It wasn't a baited level 1 though. Fillia was pressing buttons and canceled into Gregor after the super flash.

Anyway, after the most recent update the hitbox for the first active frame is almost as tall as Bella. I think that's probably fine.

 

[Arcana]

I think it is pretty weird how at point blank range if you cross up with L. love dart the combo will drop entirely

 

[Cadenza]

so just a bit weird that the fireball hitstun is a bit janky but mike already said that. this is interesting indeed

 

[Jason]

Is the now 8f command grab ever gaining any more invincibility? I mean, comparing to Diamond Drop and Merry Go Rilla is pretty underwhelming. The best part about it before was the speed, but RIP that I guess.

Full combo conversions off of her command throw for 1 bar into her normal reset game isn't good enough?

From Diamond Drop Bella gets... enough time to close the gap with Tumble Run but not much else.

 

[Spencer]

Full combo conversions off of her command throw for 1 bar into her normal reset game isn't good enough?

From Diamond Drop Bella gets... enough time to close the gap with Tumble Run but not much else.

And PW doesn't have any meterless invulnerability!

It is just weird to watch a bunch of people who picked her up because she had everything scramble to justify her need to have everything (obviously... not everyone that plays her).

 

[Tomo009]

And PW doesn't have any meterless invulnerability!

It is just weird to watch a bunch of people who picked her up because she had everything scramble to justify her need to have everything (obviously... not everyone that plays her).

Actually no, I picked her up because Skullgirls finally had a real zoning character. Now that aspect of her is being nerfed. MMDS' post raises most of my concerns with how Fukua was last patch but I haven't got to play this new version yet, I hope the playstyle is somewhat in tact.

 

[yellowflash26]

Actually no, I picked her up because Skullgirls finally had a real zoning character..

I forgot that Peacock was a grappler.

 

[Iphantom]

I'm failing to see how increased damage on fireballs and keeping the bouncing property is nerfing her zoning. I was really excited about these changes and was considering picking her up but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Mike_Z]

Actually no, I picked her up because Skullgirls finally had a real zoning character. Now that aspect of her is being nerfed. MMDS' post raises most of my concerns with how Fukua was last patch but I haven't got to play this new version yet, I hope the playstyle is somewhat in tact.

Er, her zoning is exactly the same now that fireballs bounce, in fact you get more damage and chip.

Her ridiculous conversions from it are not, but that is not "zoning".

And you're all missing the fact that you can still doublejump after an air fireball, which lets you block etc, just not come down on their head.

Also if you watch the footage a lot of what got the 2 Fukua's to top 8 had nothing to do with Fukua.

 

[Cadenza]

overall so far fukua seems a bit stronger in a specific section while maintaining some of her other aspects as well as a new super.

i wouldn't be surprised that you'd block us all out one day but thanks alot man.

 

[RAT__BABY]

Er, her zoning is exactly the same now that fireballs bounce

Well, her zoning patterns might be the same, but the inability to confirm with her fireball super does kinda suck. Perhaps j.hp fireball could keep it's old hitstun and lp/mp stay as they are in the beta?

 

[Mike_Z]

Well, her zoning patterns might be the same

That's what "zoning" is.
Clarify the super fireball bit, cuz I'm not sure it's the hitstun change.
I can still do TK HP fireball from decently far away, confirm into ground super. Was it that you were doing the air super while falling? I could probably let her super while falling.

My zoning game revolved around them coming in and me hitting them with j. hk xx fireball to combo. I got a feeling that will be never coming back now that this change has happened. If people really think that conversion was too good, I would rather decrease damage for combos that start with j. hk by X% and keep that conversion.

You can still convert off j.HK xx fireball if you wait until the j.HK brings you down next to them before throwing the fireball. Full height j.HK into immediate ambiguous crossup LP fireball that's out forever into full conversion was kinda stupid. I fully understand that that was a large part of your game, because it was really good, but it's one of the two parts of her gameplan I want gone. She has a lot more stuff to use.

Again as stated above, disagree with this because lp fireball doesn't go directly under me so if they getting in on me, for zoning purposes I do lp fireball then a falling lk if they are waiting below for me. This kills a little part of my game. MAYBE if the double jump can have a 2nd fireball? But I would still rather have a falling attack than 2 air fireballs.

Again, you can still doublejump, but getting a falling attack off a fireball (for full conversion etc) was the 2nd part. :^P

 

[Tomo009]

I forgot that Peacock was a grappler.

Ok, let me just state what I mean by zoning because people keep saying this....

To me, zoning (as well as being a nebulous word that everyone seems to have a different meaning for) is shutting off areas of the screen so your opponents options are limited, making them easier to predict. Like SF poking and counterpoking is a zoning game as far as I'm concerned. Also the classic Ryu fireball to make you want to jump then DP example.

Peacock doesn't really seem like that to me... she plays poorly from a truly neutral situation, she wants advantage, she wants you to block. Peacock doesn't care so much about where you are on screen, just that she has you caged or not. I guess you can call that zoning in a different sense that she keeps you stuck in one zone, but it isn't the word I'm looking for, it is the concept I'm trying to convey. Peacock does not fit the concept of the character I am trying to play.

English is semantics.

So yeah, damage on Fukua's fireballs never really concerned me, what did was the ability to punish my opponent for being predictable. Fukua can still limit approaches but I was struggling to open the opponent up on my own merit in the last patch, I was only punishing blatant mistakes that I didn't really feel I caused. I lost all momentum if I opted to go for a crossup on their approach. Maybe I'm not used to the new Fukua and I should be sticking to the ground more, but Fukua's dominant position of "above opponent while they are in the air" seemed a lot weaker.

Hopefully I can get the patch downloaded tonight before we have our weekly offline meeting so I can test what it is like now the bounce is back and hitstun is varied.

EDIT: I guess Val is a midrange zoning character too... but I like Fukua's projectile based game more. Parasoul also has what I call zoning as an important part of her gameplan, but mostly in a defensive way.

 

[Mike_Z]

Peacock doesn't really seem like that to me... she plays poorly from a truly neutral situation, she wants advantage, she wants you to block

Zoning, what people usually mean when they say "zoning", is poor from neutral. It involves setting up your areas to limit their movement and get your gameplan started. Until you do that zoning is weak, but once a good zoner gets started they are strong.
For example, a slow fireball is better for zoning because it removes access to that area of the stage for longer, and a fast fireball is worse, because it is around for less time. (Cable's regular beams are piss-poor for zoning but his HP's and grenades are good, etc.)
Peacock has some really amazing zoning tools. If you think the way that you want to play Fukua would be improved by making her fireballs move faster so you can punish more things, for example, then you aren't really talking about zoning.

 

[JinKazama'94]

Guys, Just because a charicter has a godamn projectile move dosn't mean he/she is a zoning character. That would be like someone saying Ryu is a zoning charicter because of his hadoken.




Though Fukua isn't Fillia ....



With a bow

 

[Tomo009]

Ah, well I called that lockdown.

Characters like Nu/Lambda, Jedah, Gouki, I-no etc are my style. Character's who play neutral from a distance but ultimately they want to get you into a poor positioning so they can move in and use their offensive tools to their full effect.

Also no I don't want faster fireballs, one of my favourites is grounded LP fireball, completely shuts off grounded approaches, I love it.

I guess another way to look at it for me, is method - reward.

I like characters with a mid to long range often projectile based (big normals are nice too though) neutral with the reward being heavy momentum when they have you in their favourite space.

EDIT: I've gotten completely off topic

 

[Jason]

I'm a pretty awful Fukua player but from looking at the frame data in training mode her fireballs are still plus on hit or block, its just not enough to combo from. Seems like you still get a chance for a mixup when somebody touches an air fireball, at least if they're on the ground. If they chicken block it, I'm not so sure.

Edit - Actually Filia dummy mashing reversal s.LP counterhits me when I try to do anything after an air fireball on hit. When they block the air fireball its way more advantage, you can even get a true blockstring from the air fireball in some cases.

This seems weird.