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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

dekillsage said:
@ClarenceMage you said val can hit confirm off cr.lk right
when you confirm are you confirming into cr.mk or the rest of cr.lk
ClarenceMage said:
The attack being light is meaningless - it's the hitstun+histop that makes it possible to convert off of Big Band's c.LK raw. Another normal that you can do this with is Valentine's c.LP.
 
You CAN also hitconfirm off of Val's c.LK into the rest of her c.LK incidentally but it's harder than confirming her c.LP into c.LK.
 
k
cuz I could for the most part confirm cr.lk hitting into the rest of the cr.lk if I payed enough attention.

that's KIND OF a lot of work though in a game as fast as this one, so I don't think I'm gonna bother with it in sg but idk yet.
 
The fact that SG is fast is the reason you should work on those tight hitconfirms - Because then you don't autopilot into heavier and more negative normals, so you don't give up the advantage nearly as much, and since you're not autopiloting into heavier normals you get to react to pushblock giving you more plus frames.

Not being willing to put in the effort results in shit like Valentine players canceling into LK Bypass off of c.MK to keep it safe... when LK Bypass is -4 and c.MK is -2.

Edit: Also question, do you/anyone ever use c.LK s.MK string as Bella?
 
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On block no. On hit for some resets yes.

A lot of the need for having to do tight hit confirms seems to not matter when a lot of assists can be throw into your blockstrings making them safer. Also I've never seen a Valentine player do cr.mk into bypass on block, I've seen cr.mk -> st.hk -> dead cross but that's really it lol
 
ClarenceMage said:
Edit: Also question, do you/anyone ever use c.LK s.MK string as Bella?

cr.LK has more range than cr.MK so I think most people avoid it outside of combos to prevent whiffing the cr.MK. There's not really much reason to use it over cr.MP.
 
The only real reason i see for 1 hit hitconfirming, is so that you can tick throw/delay low on block, or confirm on hit.




The reason of being doing it in order to not be as minus is not the greatest reason imho because most charcters arent super minus on their confirms. BB can go into lp brass on block, or e brake, or 2 hit block confirm into lk command grab.

There IS reason to 1 hit confirm, but at the end of the day it is so small as to not be all that great. You still have to guess low/throw should your initial 1 move get blocked.

Its definitely a useful skill to have but i dont see it becoming a thing that separates the weak from the strong sort of thing, at the very least.
 
s.MK is +5 on block, c.MP is -9 essentially forcing you to go into c.HK or a command grab.

c.LK s.MK has less range, so you wouldn't do it as a ranged confirm, but if you are up in someone's grill then c.LK s.MK is the superior hitconfirm.


dekillsage said:
A lot of the need for having to do tight hit confirms seems to not matter when a lot of assists can be throw into your blockstrings making them safer.

So what confirms do you do when your assists are in lockdown, you just finished using one, or you're down to your last character?

Using assists as a safety net for unsafe confirms was good in 2013 but in the long term it's very inefficient.

What you should do instead, is do a regular confirm, and then if they pushblock you out call the assist to close the space again or call assist dashjump forward as a crossup/not crossup or shit like that. Doing good hitconfirms instead of relying on your assist to do the hitconfirming for you is an important way to optimise pressure

Of course, I'm not counting doing things like call assist, poke with bella c.LK catch upback, since you can't confirm off of bella's c.LK raw so the assist synergises to give you a conirm.
 
As bella
cr.lk cr.mp(did it hit?) cr.hk/st.hp runstop(if they blocked)
If cr.mp hits, I charge for the kanchou after st.hp. I don't do it often because vs the heavies there are better combos. I will always do it vs the light weights if I need the damage.(usually when I'm down) Is that what you consider a confirm?

As Fukua
cr.lk(2)(can confirm here) cr/st.mk(will know by this point obv) -> st.hk cancel fireball/fireball super or drill -> super vs not bella/big band. I am new to fukua though, so I don't always do this consistently.

I don't know if this is what you mean lol
 
dekillsage said:
As bella
cr.lk cr.mp(did it hit?) cr.hk/st.hp runstop(if they blocked)
If cr.mp hits, I charge for the kanchou after st.hp. I don't do it often because vs the heavies there are better combos. I will always do it vs the light weights if I need the damage.(usually when I'm down) Is that what you consider a confirm?

As Fukua
cr.lk(2)(can confirm here) cr/st.mk(will know by this point obv) -> st.hk cancel fireball/fireball super or drill -> super vs not bella/big band. I am new to fukua though, so I don't always do this consistently.

I don't know if this is what you mean lol

Yeah, what you mentioned is what I consider confirms. What I'm really talking about is optimising confirms to confirm from earlier, faster, more plus on block things.

The Bella confirm from range is pretty much what you have to do, and it's difficult to punish with pbgc from range so w/e go nuts, but up close where it won't whiff do c.LK s.MK.

With Fukua I'd just do repeated c.LK c.LKs do nothing on block, hitconfirm into s.MK on hit, since c.LK is +6 or something stupid on block, so c.LK c.LK(they blocked) dash forward c.LK c.LK or command grab or forward jump j.MP crossup is gooood. If they start respecting that string and pushblocking it early, that's when I would do shadows to mix it up to pushblock bait or to stay in(and of course you can confirm off of shadows easily by themselves).

Ultimately, having a plus on block hitconfirm to base your pressure around is the best thing ever since you can use that as your Yomi layer 1 and it does not matter if it succeeds or fails since both results are good for you, and go into damage on hit or more mixups on block.
 
2 hit, plus on block confirms are awesome.
 
Ive been going over the frames with clarencemage and this is what we've worked out:

Double cr.lpx2 when the second cr.lp is delayed, has about 20 frames of hitconfirm time when adjusted for frameskip. I can do this one. Its about 15 frames when the second cr.lp isnt delayed. Which i can not do.

BB cr.lk to cr.mp has about 14 frame confirm time when the cr.mp is fully delayed and adjusted for frame skip. I cant do this one.

Just as examples of the amount of time there is to confirm.

Doubles cr.lp, to st.mk only gives about 8 frames of confirm time so it is humanly impossible to confirm.

This is all assuming that @Pizzarino frame data on hitstop is correct because hitstop and the sg frame counter were used to arrive at these timings.
 
please stop ringlet spike's changes.

i like character's quick moves and fast game speed in skullgirls.
but new ringlet spike freezes the opponent.
it is not fun even if it can be long combos.

please reconsider ringlet spike's changes.

i think ringlet spike is not need changes.
if it is absolutely needs to be changed, the opponent fall in front when ringlet spike hits.
 
I don't think he likes the ringlet changes.

Anyway, woohoo squigly can low profile with attacks other than s.hk. That thing was only good against projectiles.
 
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY L SHADOW!!!!!!

sike i could care less. most likely was a bit unfair for someone to get tripped into OTG from a cilia-clone sweep.

gonna play when i get home and see how i fully feel about it. anyone would like to play?
 
cdgann said:
please stop ringlet spike's changes.

i like character's quick moves and fast game speed in skullgirls.
but new ringlet spike freezes the opponent.
it is not fun even if it can be long combos.

please reconsider ringlet spike's changes.

i think ringlet spike is not need changes.
if it is absolutely needs to be changed, the opponent fall in front when ringlet spike hits.
By this reasoning, we should get rid of pummeling horse, countervenom, bella's s.mp, peacock's lp bang, silver chord, daisy pusher, bff, and many more. All because they slow down the game (this does not sound like a good idea.......pretty bad idea imo)

Ringlet spike change is actually really nice. Filia on any M or H ringlet hit, all you got was a tech chase they could easily escape from, sans corner. Now the tech chase is even easier as well as putting her up and close with her opponents anywhere.

What is does for her mixup game is so gooooood. She actually can go for grabs which now net 3k follow ups for about 3/4 undizzy. This is great for her mixup game, bc now she has cheap damage off of throw and the added bonus of a neutral use buff.
 
cloudKing211 said:
Ringlet spike change is actually really nice. Filia on any M or H ringlet hit, all you got was a tech chase they could easily escape from, sans corner. Now the tech chase is even easier as well as putting her up and close with her opponents anywhere.
Don't overlook the most important part
Practical conversion from medium-close range, or guaranteed conversion for 1 bar anywhere

I'm only worried that people don't realize the implications of this until after this leaves beta, because it seems like it would bring ringlet spike from good to super good
 
I don't think the L.Shadow nerf matters too much
You only hit with it at close/mid-range anyway, where you used to follow up with run up jHK - which still works.

This buffs retarded fullscreen Bella runs and Brass / Brass assist calls, as well as removing some scenarios where you'd trade with an opponent's projectile and then still have time to run up and OTG after you recover from hitstun; that's about it.

H Shadow doesn't reach as far as where this change matters, so this isn't even protecting against a mixup only dead people fall for?

I don't care too much about the change as I don't think it accomplishes anything relevant; which at the same time makes me question what it's there for?

cloudKing211 said:
Filia on any M or H ringlet hit, all you got was a tech chase they could easily escape from, sans corner.
Uuh, you could always hitconfirm Ringlet into Gregor against not-Peacock-with-George-on-the-ground.
 
so, can we get an install super for squigly while we're at it?
 
Not going over every single one of these today since a lot of my comments would just be "yay!" or "aww" and you can reasonably guess which is which.
- c.HK slides faster, further, and is active for longer. Go go sliding gunswords!
Pretty rad although I need to actually try it out to get a feel for how much faster and how much further. This is another normal like j.MK that I don't think I use as often as I should, it was already better for a quick burst of forward movement than her normal ground dash. Not as amazing as it would have been due to the nerf on GDO in this same update but still really nice. I also wonder if L gun, whiff c.HK xx GDO is easier to do now.
A Lenny that is hit by Argus Agony will do a bit less damage when he blows up, to somewhat offset the ease of fullscreen confirms now; chip damage is unchanged.
Guess that means this is likely to stay.
Airthrow tosses the opponent a bit further away, still possible to combo with falling j.MK (or previously held SoIDs).
This one's curious. I guess the idea is making it harder to combo off raw air throws, although I already thought that was kinda finicky - sometimes you don't get all 3 hits of falling j.LK and your combo doesn't work. Again I need to see it, maybe all you can do after the j.MK is combo into Argus or something, that would be kind of shitty. The good news (at least for me) is my go-to air throw reset already involves an item drop, so that should still work the same at least.
 
- Filia no longer passes through Big Band if he parries Gregor Samson. Gregor should also wallbounce sliiiightly better when far from the wall, maybe. Maybe not.
- Lower head hitboxes on Squigly's c.LK and c.MP to match the animation better and give her some low profile attacks.
I guess she learned it from Sol. They're obviously friends, they both have dragons installed...

Beta Experiments
- Fukua's L shadow is immediately ground techable, can no longer be OTG'd after.
- Double's s.MP startup 15f->13f, damage 500->550, hitstun and blockstun +4f, recovery -4f.
Peacock:
- Redrew hitboxes on Peacock's c.MK and j.HP to match the effect more closely, they both extend further out now.
- c.HK slides faster, further, and is active for longer. Go go sliding gunswords!
- c.HP damage 950->900.
- s.HK damage 1100->1000.
- c.MK startup 16f->15f.
- s.MP startup 15f->14f.
- s.LK startup 12f->9f, it's almost like it's a light attack or something!
- LK George is now -2 on block. Advantage on hit still the same.
- Fake teleport recovery back to normal, startup still slower.
- A Lenny that is hit by Argus Agony will do a bit less damage when he blows up, to somewhat offset the ease of fullscreen confirms now; chip damage is unchanged.
- Argus Agony unscaled damage returned to approximately the Real Game value; scaled damage still much less than Real Game, and staying that way.
- Airthrow tosses the opponent a bit further away, still possible to combo with falling j.MK (or previously held SoIDs).
 
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ClarenceMage said:
s.MK is +5 on block, c.MP is -9 essentially forcing you to go into c.HK or a command grab.
You could try c.lk, c.mp, s.hk instead. s.hk is -2 on block, so still perfectly safe from everything. It's also 3 frames faster than c.hk, making it a true blockstring, where as c.mp, c.hk can get mashed out of. It also has the added benefit of a medium in front of it, giving you like... I don't know how to count frames... but more than the other one.

I would like to confirm faster, though. I would be so much scarier if I could do that. Especially if I could react to pushblocks.
 
Have any Filias been able to use the ringlet stun to extend combo damage?

It doesn't seem like it combos out of much, but s.hk > mp.ringlett allows another chain.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Pretty rad although I need to actually try it out to get a feel for how much faster and how much further. This is another normal like j.MK that I don't think I use as often as I should, it was already better for a quick burst of forward movement than her normal ground dash. Not as amazing as it would have been due to the nerf on GDO in this same update but still really nice. I also wonder if L gun, whiff c.HK xx GDO is easier to do now.

This one's curious. I guess the idea is making it harder to combo off raw air throws, although I already thought that was kinda finicky - sometimes you don't get all 3 hits of falling j.LK and your combo doesn't work. Again I need to see it, maybe all you can do after the j.MK is combo into Argus or something, that would be kind of shitty. The good news (at least for me) is my go-to air throw reset already involves an item drop, so that should still work the same at least.
Peacock c.HK is crazy now:



And you don't get a full combo off her airthrow midscreen any more unless you started charging an item drop in advance (edit: or maybe if you didn't superjump and you call the right assist on the way down after j.MK. Thanks Zeknife!). It's just airthrow, j.MK>argus:

 
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On the Peacock changes:

- She lost an important part of her ground pressure with the L.George nerf; previously you were stuck in the dilemma of "I don't want to pushblock the zoner, but I'm -2 in her face, what do I do", now it's.. 5f jab mash time
- She doesn't get combos after Airthrow anymore - which I prefer per se (All of "There isn't much hard KD -in general and after airthrow- in the game, so this adds some variety", the zoner tossing the opponent away, and the interaction with SoID which allows you a combo after all, are things I enjoy), but obviously it is a nerf [ @mcpeanuts yes, all she gets after the jMK is Argus]
- Lost some damage

- She gained better c.HK slide, which is nice (but less useful without +2 George) - would have to test what this allows for, eg new combo paths after L.Bang or how much of a use it has in neutral. I really really enjoy c.HK xx L.George under people who jump at me - which should work better now, so that'd be a notable buff to her movement
- Farther range on c.MK sounds nice, but doesn't do much. Since she can't get a conversion out of it anyway (maxrange c.MK already only combos into M./H.Bang and c.HK; the actual starter of c.MK>s.HK only works up close, with c.MK > c.HP > s.HK only comboing from p.much point blank), I doubt this helps her too much
- s.LK usable sounds nice, but c.LP is still mostly just better (still 3f faster startup, more frame advantage on both hit and block, better net range) .. .. s.LK has the superior hitbox, so I guess it'll have its uses, but by no means I see this as a large buff
- j.HP is a huge difference (Thanks @Mr Peck http://i.imgur.com/RSV7P4p.png ), will have to see how that plays out

From not-having-tested-anything-and-being-unable-to-test, the first impression would be that this, on top of the previous teleport and damage nerfs, is way too much; especially since I don't expect/want the jMK overhead to stay.
cHK as a better movement- and jHP as a better space control tool are both very nice changes which should make her neutral more fun, but the hit her defence took and the heavy blow to her offence seem to have gone overboard in comparison.
.. Though of course, giving a character another notable movement option (imagine if Parasoul suddenly got a Doublejump :X ), as well as strengthening one of the main buttons on a zoning character are a huge deal - so maybe it is fine?
I won't go onto any definitives given I'm unable to test it really, I just feel this gimped her offence by too much. Maybe with the old L.George it would be fine, though I suppose Mike had his reasons for changing that (endless unpushblockable blockstrings with s.LK c.HK xx L.George or something?).

Mostly I'm confused what the changes are there for - I do believe that Peacock is #1 on the retail build, but I also think that the major part of this is the assist+teleport business, which got removed already.
Where is Mike trying to push her now? The changes don't seem like balance and more like redesign ones? Some nerfs to X with compensation buffs for Y feels like an attempt at pushing the character in a certain direction, rather than making it plain weaker.
Airthrow tossing the opponent away, L.George being less of a monster up close, and damage nerf on s.HK are all hurting her offence; the c.HK kinda helps escaping but is also an option to keep pressure on when getting pushblocked which is kind of a "helps both"-thing, jHP is for space control - so a nudge further into the zoning direction?
While I'm thinking that the changes may have gone overboard, it's difficult to suggest "compensation buffs" if I don't know where they are supposed to take the character (eg I think the L.George nerf is unwarranted, but if the idea is to make her closerange pressure weaker, then it makes sense and she'd need a buff elsewhere rather than revoking the nerf), so I will refrain from any.

TL;DR: cHK is cool, Nerfs are too harsh, where is Peacock supposed to go
 
Why the air throw change? Is it to force a play style change?
Combined with GDO being -2 on block, is Peacock going to have any type of close range game w/o shadow anymore?

edit: Yeah, this is a very knee jerk reaction. I'm looking at all kinds of buffs for her normals.

2nd edit: Actually, wtf am I gonna do now? She doesn't even hit hard anymore and her block strings just went the way of Double. How is she supposed to back up, move, teleport, pressure, or retreat once somebody's blocked her first mix up? GDO was her only + on block move and it wasn't a true block string to anything other than jab or the 1st hit of s.Hp. I'm supposed to be sated because the start up of moves in the middle of a block string aren't as horrendous anymore? They still make terrible pokes.
 
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I don't know about most of the changes, but I'm all for the air throw change.

Peacock's main weakness is when she's being pressured, and yet she is still scary as hell to approach. Between a fully combo-able airthrow, reversal options, and some of the best in and out of combo damage in the game she's a threat at any range while still having arguably the best neutral at most ranges.

An air throw before the change means a full combo + you're probably back at the other end of the screen to navigate the wall o' shit and try again. Now it makes it less scary but still gives her a space advantage which seems fair for a character that wants to zone.
 
Not really sure how helpful the double changes are going to be, but it might give us a decent poke tool?

I think the M gun change was fine personally. Not having a safe blockstring was the only thing that I was always bothered by about her.
 
Mr Peck said:
videos of peacock's new c.hk

I almost spewed hot dog all over my screen when I saw that. So glad I was eating and not drinking.
 
Mr Peck said:
And you don't get a full combo off her airthrow midscreen any more unless you started charging an item drop in advance (edit: or maybe if you didn't superjump and you call the right assist on the way down after j.MK. Thanks Zeknife!). It's just airthrow, j.MK>argus:
Hm, what's the right assist? It's hard to tell if I could call Beat Extend here. If that works it's by pixels. If all you get is j.MK xx Argus I guess that's fine. I used air throws all the time in vanilla and you didn't get shit off air throw in that version of the game.
 
Anyone know if these still work?
 
Dolfinh said:
Not really sure how helpful the double changes are going to be, but it might give us a decent poke tool?
It's now -4 on block, so c.LK s.MP [stop] is a blockstring which doesn't get you killed and should be hitconfirmable into the launcher.
That's rather useful, Luger change or not

Spencer said:
while still having arguably the best neutral at most ranges.
I can see those complaints as a PW/Squig player, but whether your neutral game is good or not depends on the opponent's options.
"Best neutral at most ranges" is a shaky thing when fighting against Filia (who can now Ringlet > AD jMP and get full combos on you for trying to zone), Valentine (who gained meterless Bypass conversions), Brass assist, etc

The main options Peacock has to land "a hit that hurts" in the current Beta are a 15f low (which only really works at point blank), a 22f high (which only works at point blank), bomb crossups (which are difficult to set up and "avoidable"), M doom stuff (which obviously needs some "preparation" as well).
That is rather poor when compared to umm, every other member of the cast.

Yeah, Peacock has good zoning. But how good is that zoning still going to be, when people can run in with less of a concern for teleports and she has to worry more about not giving up ground?
That's kind of up-in-the-air; plus her defence got notably worse, and people will be less afraid of just jump-blocking forwards now, and things

Maybe Pea just has to switch up her playstyle, and eg instead of saving up 4 bars for an eventual Argus Diamonds DHC has to regularly convert her projectile hits into Argus to send people back fullscreen; maybe the cHK makes her movement and anti-pushblock pressure so much better than she can handle business?
This is all a bit early to tell (espec for me who is unable to play Beta);
But the blanket statement of "Airthrow nerf is good, because why would the character who beats my character in neutral also have a good offence" is a bit.. off
 
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Never mind, she can combo midscreen without any assists or item drops. That said, it's tricky and possibly character-specific and doesn't work if you've used your airdash:

 
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