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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Mr. X said:
I have the experiment, I have the end result of the experiment, I'm just missing the "why"?
No game company is ever going to tell you why. You're a bit spoiled by the openness of SG's development.
 
guitalex2007 said:
No game company is ever going to tell you why. You're a bit spoiled by the openness of SG's development.
Mike does say why alot actually, it's just the fact that he us not a telepathic, omniscient/omnipotent being that can answer every question instantly and readily give reasons for everything is being overlooked. If Mike doesn't give reasons for something being taken out, it's probably to see if there is a substantial change in the way a character is played, how certain matchups are affected, or if something is abused/underutilized.
 
SonicFox5000 said:
Speaking about overheads being nerfed, what about parasouls air down+Mk?
By its self its ass, but in the corner with an assist , she can do a tear setup and then get a 25/25/25/25 from it (@dekillsage has seen this setup :p)
I propose that her air down m.k gets the Eliza instant j.lk treatment just to keep it like all other overheads. Im surprised I dont see para players use this enough!
Also its 7 frame startups, but im not sure if thats accounting with jump frames

What does the Eliza instant j.lk treatment mean?
 
Wow. Today I learned something new.

Question time. Is the egret barrier dude supposed to absorb hits from SoiD now? Was he always supposed to if that's case?

It happened tonight while I was playing klone in the beta. I dropped a shadow as egret barrier started up and he took the hit. Does that always happen on the start up?
 
Dhoppler said:
Wow. Today I learned something new.

Question time. Is the egret barrier dude supposed to absorb hits from SoiD now? Was he always supposed to if that's case?

It happened tonight while I was playing klone in the beta. I dropped a shadow as egret barrier started up and he took the hit. Does that always happen on the start up?
I thought he was active as soon as he landed.
 
Yeah he is. It might just be a side effect of that since he lands right on top of parasoul. It makes sense. I'm just thinking about things like how I'm going to play the match up now. Hostage situations and fake teleports won't cut it anymore.
 
Experience with matches playing Fukua:
-Drill still works how I want it to work, which is nice tyvm.
-Ground fireball losing hitstop makes it so that autocorrect fireball doesn't hit people anywhere near as often.
-A lot of my Fukua starters lead to okay damage, but it doesn't feel like Fukua damage lol.
-I really don't like the shadow change. 15 frames of recovery is a lot and makes her feel heavy and weird to play, if that makes sense.

Matches with Parasoul/Lk bomber
-New sniper shot is ridiculous. There was only one situation out of over 20 games where I wished I could combo off of mp shot -> sniper shot, and that was because my auto pilot had me try that combo route.
- New sniper -> catheads lets double get the restand still. Previously the dhc was really good because you always got the restand, but now you can also do stuff like pillar -> sniper shot -> catheads and get a lot of damage and mix ups!
- Pillar -> Sniper Shot feels better than pillar -> bikes. It also made dhc's feel safer, but I have no knowledge on whether I'm actually + or - when I do Pillar -> sniper -> cat heads or monster
-You can do things like Sniper -> Monster -> Cilia Slide -> Tag back to Parasoul. Can probably combo from there too, but idk I only got that far in my games.

-Lk bomber is worse, but still pretty good. You have to react a lot faster to it hitting and can't use it as a lock down assist as much.
-Double on point can monster and then you can hard tag back into parasoul. Seems decent, need someone to punish me for it before I think otherwise.
-I'm terrible at pbgc's right now so I couldn't use lk bomber as much as I wanted too, but the times it did work I could not react to it hitting at all.
-The new lugers are super nice! I like them a lot. I can do luger combos on heavies and have a lot of time to confirm off of heavy luger.
- Cr.HP works as I thought it would. I need more practice with it, but atm I'm doing cr.hp-> luger -> pillar to combo off it, which isn't gr8 since you can do cr.hp -> fleshstep(?) -> combo probably. CH damage is still not great, I can't find anything someone help me :(
-Car doing more damage is so good. I don't have to ask myself "is car going to kill here?" as much anymore.
Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention that Hornet bomber -> Car -> Sniper shot -> corner oki is amazing.

End of thoughts
 
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Maybe Fukua's shadows should be -15f of blockstun instead of +15f of recovery?

It was really dumb to have them be plus a million on block but right now its really dangerous to whiff with them which I don't think was something that needed to change.

That said I don't really use shadows enough with Fukua to begin with so take that with a grain of salt.
 
Skip until like halfway, or to the end cuz that's what matters.
This combo keeps dropping right at the end :( Appears to be random cuz I just got it after like 20 attempts.
In 2v3 it kills the assist if you spend the third bar, but you can combo off it with a teleport and kill the assist that way.
 
Mike_Z said:
Stop. Seriously. It's not funny, it's just annoying.

@Mr. X
No response at all to that whole thing? I am disappoint.
And I missed an easy one - Sei'ei Enbu shadows don't hit overhead or low. Which is a good example of why there are exceptions...it "makes sense" because otherwise he'd have pretty easy unblockables, and thus the exception exists. Aegis not resetting juggle points same thing, 6 shoulders into 6 more while building meter. Other ones handle other problem cases (last hit of Chun SAII works the way it does because in the beta of 3s getting hit by just that hit did 40% damage) and others probably handle things we never found because they were handled.

@dekillsage
Actually yeah I can get that to hit in the corner probably.
Can I come over tonight to see new changes in person since reading this is like reading programming... I understand nothing.
 
dekillsage said:
-A lot of my Fukua starters lead to okay damage, but it doesn't feel like Fukua damage lol.
This is what concern's me the most.

One of the reasons I like playing Fukua is because I don't have to focus much on trying to eke out damage by doing complex combos and can instead focus more on playing neutral and/or zoning my opponents out.

I'm also pretty sure that I'm not the only on who gravitated to her because of this.
 
d3v said:
This is what concern's me the most.

One of the reasons I like playing Fukua is because I don't have to focus much on trying to eke out damage by doing complex combos and can instead focus more on playing neutral and/or zoning my opponents out.

I'm also pretty sure that I'm not the only on who gravitated to her because of this.

That's the main reason why I picked her up. Other reasons include stuff I wont post here loool but yeah.
 
All I'm hearing is "I picked her up because she's easy".

You picked her because she has a solid neutral and zoning, and the side bonus is that if you happen to land a hit you get 7.5-8k damage for free?
 
I remember when Fukua hadn't been even nerfed and people thought she wasn't good.

Those were the days... Oh wait, that was like four months ago.
 
dekillsage said:
It was more like
All Fukua players were free.



(oooooooooooooh!!!!!!)
large.gif

Edit: feeling like Rigby here.
 
Wasn't it more like, Duck said she sucked and everybody went with it until he got bodied before Evo?
 
I picked her because I was like "hey filia with a command grab" but then it wasn't actually filia with a command grab and was the most derp character to grace the game.
 
Dhoppler said:
Wasn't it more like, Duck said she sucked and everybody went with it until he got bodied before Evo?

"Alright, I still think jHK is too fast for how big it is, how much hitstun it has, and how much damage you can get off it. You can't challenge her in the air at all because of that move. You kind of have to sit back and hope they mess up by running into an assist or something.

I'm fine with all her other stuff but that one normal is just a little bit too good."

Duckator prior to evo, and this was probably before they abused j.hk fireball j.hk
 
Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I thought sometime ago, soon after she was released, he said she sucked and everyone went with it and opinions didn't change until some point between UFGT and Evo.
 
All i really know or can say about fukua is i played against gfarmers fukua months ago and got wooped up big time. Then a month or so later we play against and he's no longer playing her and i ask him why and his answer was "shes just to braindead and easy to win with"

Hey, they arent right about everything but i tend to put a certain amount of respect into what the Koreans believe as far as this game is concerned. Idk if fukua deserved her nerfs but i do know that m shadow at the very least is completely derp and the fact that she has st akuma airfireballs certainly isnt a hindrance to her... Nor hard to apply for just about anyone with more than a month of fighting game experience.


But... Derp doesnt necessarily need to be nerfed. it just needs to be balanced for derpiness.
And i hope that is all thats happening to fukua... Shes getting her derp balanced.
 
When Fukua was first released she didn't have the majority of the tools she had by evo. Which is why he said she sucked, cuz she kinda did.

Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that while Fukua is pretty easy to play, she only becomes really REALLY good if you're playing her on a duo because that's where she can shine most. Solo Fukua is also really strong, and trio Fukua is so much easier to deal with. The same goes for trio Peacock. Food for thought I guess
 
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Well then, I stand corrected. People said she sucked 4 months ago because they didn't get the memo that she didn't suck anymore.

Moving on, all Peacock changes are going to move in the direction of making you confirm off of projectiles rather than getting your opponent to over extend themselves. Is this the safe assumption here? That's the point that Mike was making when combating all objections to her changes, right?
 
IsaVulpes said:
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/fukua-general-discussion.2412/page-20#post-111673
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/fukua-general-discussion.2412/page-21#post-122418
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/fukua-general-discussion.2412/page-21#post-122486

Pretty sure she had all her tools there

America thought she was fine anyways
Well, at least the part of America that played her

She's still slow, her reversals are easy to beat, its actually not that easy to open people up with her if your opponent is actually patient and smart. What ended up making her broken was she could double jump, throw a fireball, and combo off it if it hit no matter what. It had everyone stressed at EVO when we were watching Fukua players abuse this and stay safe while doing it loooool

When Mike took that away all her problems still remained, and I don't recall anyone talking about Fukua until after I picked her up and started doing stuff. But maybe I haven't been paying attention to people about Fukua post patch lol
 
I think the change to how Lenny interacts with Argus Agony is probably the first time in a while where a beta change was made and the immediate implications of it weren't obvious.

Anyway anybody have thoughts on where Eliza stands in the balance department? It doesn't seem like there are many people playing her. I've been trying to pick her up but I'm a long way off from being able to give any feedback on her yet.
 
Jason said:
I think the change to how Lenny interacts with Argus Agony is probably the first time in a while where a beta change was made and the immediate implications of it weren't obvious.
There is, however, a large difference between "Okay, Shadow gets +15f recovery, this makes shadows worse; nerfs Fukua" and "It was necessary to nerf Fukua, because.."

Understanding what a change does, or that something got changed "because Mike doesn't like it" is generally easy, but when there are three weeks of constant "LMFAO if you think Fukua is anywhere near the top", "lol fukua is so easy to beat l2p", "shes just scrubkiller, anyone decent wins free" tbc,
and then she gets punched in the guts with the nerf bat from one day to the next (btw the second time this is happening, post-EVO was the first), this begs the question whether Mike is nerfing a bottom-mid tier character, changed his opinion (because, ..), or these are merely 'readjustments' (ie we will see compensation buffs later)

This also makes commenting on changes difficult - I see what it does on paper, but I don't see what the intent behind it was.
He killed H.Drill - okay, maybe he didn't want Fukua to have a meterless reversal option. Oh, the issue is actually in H.Drill xx Kiss into Oki? Then I can suggest to instead just make Kiss a techable KD and give her the Drill back. But how am I supposed to know this from the patchnotes? If his problem was indeed simply that Fukua shouldn't have a meterless reversal, the suggestion "Hey, how about making Kiss techable instead?" makes no sense whatsoever.
Maybe he thinks a character is way too strong and nerfs some tools, while giving a small compensation buff. Then I find out that this compensation buffs allows /secret tech/ which actually keeps the character on the same spot of the Tierlist. But if Mike doesn't tell us that these are supposed to be nerfs, I will assume said /secret tech/ is intended, and that he simply attempted to redesign the character.

I *absolutely love* how open Mike is in posting possible future changes, accepting input from players, reacting to concerns, etc.

I do however think that he could save us some trouble figuring things out -and himself some headaches- if he posted some short lines on the thought process behind some changes.
If the Filia changes started out with "I think Filia is pretty alright where she currently is powerlevel-wise; but she's a bit too braindead/one-dimensional, because: jHK is a safe-on-block instant overhead that can be AD-cancelled into further crap, deals tons of damage, can crossup, will crossup randomly, and has a hitbox that beats everything - also, Air Gregor is a bit too strong for my taste. So I will attempt to change these two tools while giving her some other stuff to play with, which should keep her roughly as strong as she is", it would become much easier for us to give an accurate assessment whether his changes actually achieve said goal, and people would be less whiny after an initial batch of nerfs, as they'd know their character is going to gain some interesting new stuff in a matter of days.
 
dekillsage said:
I don't recall anyone talking about Fukua until after I picked her up and started doing stuff.
I still don't talk about her; don't think she is "busted" enough to warrant nerfs balancewise (I don't think any character is clear enough better than the rest of the cast following the Peacock nerfs - the strongest contender for this seems to be Valentine with new Bypass, but it's a bit hard to tell, since I don't have access to the Beta atm. Also Double of course, ayyyyyy).

I do think she's pretty dumb - and would gladly get a bunch of changes that make her braindead tools weaker, while giving her something else; to continue turning her from one-dimensional boringness into something more.. refined.
 
IsaVulpes said:
I still don't talk about her; don't think she is "busted" enough to warrant nerfs balancewise (I don't think any character is clear enough better than the rest of the cast following the Peacock nerfs - the strongest contender for this seems to be Valentine with new Bypass, but it's a bit hard to tell, since I don't have access to the Beta atm. Also Double of course, ayyyyyy).

I do think she's pretty dumb - and would gladly get a bunch of changes that make her braindead tools weaker, while giving her something else; to continue turning her from one-dimensional boringness into something more.. refined.

Yeah recently the weaker characters have been getting nice changes to help them out. Peacock changes are kinda harsh, because it seems to make her hard match ups worse, but she has new stuff to work with and still has her good traits.

Fukua does get boring to play, but if making her funner/more interesting ends up making her worse and worse then idk. Hopefully we can find a medium that makes people happy and gets the whiners that are gonna lose to her anyways to leave her alone.
 
Jason said:
I think the change to how Lenny interacts with Argus Agony is probably the first time in a while where a beta change was made and the immediate implications of it weren't obvious.
Man I streamed the day that update happened showing lenny stuff I was doing from full screen lol. It kind of seemed like a no-brainer thing.
 
I think it's easy to over think why the changes take place.

Peacock's air throw moves them forward? I guess it was too easy of a confirm. Argus lasers go through Lenny? I guess the randomness of the lasers will no longer mess up combos. Fukua is losing her sliding knockdown? Must have been too powerful.

Wanting Mike to spell things out won't reveal much more than what you're already thinking.
 
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