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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Negus Eyoel said:
ok after playing beta fukua i kinda hate recovery on clones being so much. like i really don't want to use them anymore if i feel like i can avoid them because i just feel like a sitting duck for so long after i do it.

not a fan of j.hk scaling at all. kinda wish it was gone. at the very least i don't feel like it should scale a combo if you don't start with j.hk

i'm fine with drill changes. actually i'd take losing all invincibility on drill if i could get sliding knockdown back on fireball super, i really miss that.

otherwise i do completely agree that she needed a damage nerf so all the clone damage nerfs i agree with 100
QFE still a thing? well QFE
 
The current changes to Fukua feel weird. She just feels limited now. Why wasnt the initial experiment 75% scaling on j.hk when its confirmed raw, and slightly less damage and slightly more recovery on shadows. I think that the lk shadow change is great, since it was initially +21 in block and now its -2 which is still safe, but not enough time to do whatever fukua wants. Maybe too much of a change, but less blockstun on it is for the better I believe. Other than that, mk shadow and hk shadow could probably be better with blockstun and recovery between the old and current versions, but I digress.

The main problem with Fukua as I felt it was that her moves had a lot of blockstun and that she could mover before her opponents, allowing for tons of meaty pressure right out of blockstrings. People have been getting around this with PBGC with little to no issues. However, there were problems with how extremely safe her tools were, and still are. These changes feel like they are nerfing her variety rather than a singular overpowering issue. So in essence I feel the current experimental changes are pretty drastic, and truly believe their is a happy medium to be found
 
Okay, so the new Sniper shot kind of makes Napalm Quake (MK Flash Kick) harder to use since you can't combo off of it as easily now since Quake xx Sniper was the go-to conversion when you used it raw. Quake xx Sniper still technically connects, but using Napalm quake as a mixup tool in the first place is really risky, so it kind of sucks that doing it into Sniper only gets you oki for a risky reset and 1 bar. There are some rare specific things that Parasoul loses cause of this (most notably would be losing the ability to use sHPx2 M Quake Sniper shot confirm for consistent Happy Birthday combos when you accidentally get sHPx2 in that situation and aren't in the corner), but in general it just feels lame that the already underused and underappreciated tool gets worse now since now you have to use it with DHC or Level 3 to combo off of it. Midscreen you can still do Napalm Quake xx Bikes and it combos fine, but in the corner the bikes just barely don't travel fast enough to connect.

Assuming the Sniper shot changes stay, for a simple fix that would keep things relatively the same (without overhauling Bikes or reverting sniper), could Mike just increase the hitstun slightly on Napalm Quake so that Quake xx Bikes works in the corner? Napalm Quake is +0 on hit now, so as long as it stays under +7 (to avoid Parasoul being able to link after it) that should be fine right?

Edit: forgot to mention, but you can technically combo quake in the corner if you have a floored tear. But that is annoying since it requires a specific spacing cause tear tosses don't hit the floor when you are too close to the corner, on top of that being a bunch of setup for a not-very-useful reset tool (which even with the floored tear is -7 on block).
 
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Negus Eyoel said:
i'm fine with drill changes. actually i'd take losing all invincibility on drill if i could get sliding knockdown back on fireball super, i really miss that.

In what situations do you use the sliding knockdown super that wasn't in the corner or after drill? You can still combo off it in the corner and pressure after landing the move, otherwise you go for something else not fireball super.
 
dekillsage said:
In what situations do you use the sliding knockdown super that wasn't in the corner or after drill? You can still combo off it in the corner and pressure after landing the move, otherwise you go for something else not fireball super.
when i hit them with bomber assist but i feel like i'm way too far or not prepared enough to go chase after then and convert. i could just do fireball super instead then go over there and do oki shenanigans. thats what i miss most about it. also if i manage to make a read and hit them from about full screen trying to zone with whoever it'll be way easier to close the gap
 
fireball super vs zoners doesn't work if they just call their assist first before throwing out bombs. even after it hardly works and the super doesn't even have any hitstop to help it anymore.
and I guess? @ hornet bomber. I will not take the option to do that over my only reversal that still loses to throws /jumping/reversals/dp assists.
 
cloudKing211 said:
Why wasnt the initial experiment 75% scaling on j.hk when its confirmed raw

The 75% scaling on Fukua's j.HK works the same way as the 50% scaling for throws/hitgrabs. You wouldn't see much difference if the scaling was changed to not affect mid-combo j.HK. The 75% damage scaling is a MINIMUM scaling. If your combo is already scaled to less than 75% the extra scaling on j.HK has no impact at all.

Combo damage scales like so

1st hit 100%, 2nd hit 100%, 3rd hit 100%, 4th hit 87.5%, 5th hit 76.5%, 6th hit 67.0%, 7th hit 58.6%, 8th hit 51.3%

So if you insert the j.HK later than the 6th hit in the combo it will have zero impact on the damage of your combo. Even if j.HK is the 5th hit, the extra scaling is minimal (an extra 1.5%).

You can see the same effect with Squigly's Silver Cord (50% damage scaling). If you insert Silver Cord into your combo on the 8th hit or later, it doesn't add any extra scaling to the combo.

Test it in training mode for yourself

cr.LK > cr.MK (all hits) > s.HP, j.HK, s.LP <---- the s.LP does 175 damage in both the beta and retail versions. No difference.
 
Jason said:
The 75% scaling on Fukua's j.HK works the same way as the 50% scaling for throws/hitgrabs. You wouldn't see much difference if the scaling was changed to not affect mid-combo j.HK. The 75% damage scaling is a MINIMUM scaling. If your combo is already scaled to less than 75% the extra scaling on j.HK has no impact at all.

Combo damage scales like so

1st hit 100%, 2nd hit 100%, 3rd hit 100%, 4th hit 87.5%, 5th hit 76.5%, 6th hit 67.0%, 7th hit 58.6%, 8th hit 51.3%

So if you insert the j.HK later than the 6th hit in the combo it will have zero impact on the damage of your combo. Even if j.HK is the 5th hit, the extra scaling is minimal (an extra 1.5%).

You can see the same effect with Squigly's Silver Cord (50% damage scaling). If you insert Silver Cord into your combo on the 8th hit or later, it doesn't add any extra scaling to the combo.

Test it in training mode for yourself

cr.LK > cr.MK (all hits) > s.HP, j.HK, s.LP <---- the s.LP does 175 damage in both the beta and retail versions. No difference.
so you reduce fukua to only one or two combo routes to avoid scaling? that's something i genuinely did not know (concerning how the scaling work)
 
Anything using J.hk early will scale your combo.

Ex: J.lp J.hp starter, St.hp J.hk stater, j.hk starter, mk shadow j.hk
 
Welp time to wait on the next set of changes.

cause fukua isn't allowed to throw shadows at this point.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but shadows are still plus, right? Just not ridiculously so? How is a tool that's safe on block and gets you a free combo something you aren't allowed to throw out? Because it doesn't do over 50%? Do a reset or something if the damage bothers you that much.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
so you reduce fukua to only one or two combo routes to avoid scaling? that's something i genuinely did not know (concerning how the scaling work)

Not really, I mean even if j.HK is the 4th hit in your combo you're only losing probably 200-300 damage total.

Edit - I just tested it and my shitty test combo lost 100 damage in beta (~6850) vs. retail (~6750) for starting with cr.LK > cr.MP > s.HP, j.HK
 
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Yaya said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but shadows are still plus, right? Just not ridiculously so? How is a tool that's safe on block and gets you a free combo something you aren't allowed to throw out? Because it doesn't do over 50%? Do a reset or something if the damage bothers you that much.
Incorrect. you're minus for every shadow you would throw out. you actually put yourself in a mixup due to throwing a shadow. god forbid you do M shadow at close range. and god forbid you use L shadow as a pushblock bait. if you hit. the conversion is so wonky. and if they blocked..........diamond drop or mixup.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Incorrect. you're minus for every shadow you would throw out. you actually put yourself in a mixup due to throwing a shadow. god forbid you do M shadow at close range. and god forbid you use L shadow as a pushblock bait. if you hit. the conversion is so wonky. and if they blocked..........diamond drop or mixup.

Actually LK Shadow is -2, MK shadow is +9 and HK Shadow is +16 at point blank. From further out they're better than that.

Did you even test this?

And for reference in Retail right now

LK Shadow is +21, MK Shadow is +30, HK Shadow is +31
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Incorrect. you're minus for every shadow you would throw out. you actually put yourself in a mixup due to throwing a shadow. god forbid you do M shadow at close range. and god forbid you use L shadow as a pushblock bait. if you hit. the conversion is so wonky. and if they blocked..........diamond drop or mixup.
I mean, if you space the shadows well enough then you're still safe and not really putting yourself in a mixup. If you L shadow up close and they block it then... well... that's the risk you take for going for a mixup that gives you a day and a half to confirm and a lot of reward on hit. The shadows being so + on block combined with how well they control space was pretty blaaaaaah.

How much does the j.HK scaling affect counterhit combos, though? Like, blocking a DP and then going st.HP > j.HK > etc. (unless that's not route Fukua's most optimal combos goes... in which case never mind).
 
Jason said:
Actually LK Shadow is -2, MK shadow is +9 and HK Shadow is +16 at point blank. From further out they're better than that.

Did you even test this?

And for reference in Retail right now

LK Shadow is +21, MK Shadow is +30, HK Shadow is +31


And who the hell throws out M shadow?! "from further out they're better than that"

oh yes neutral cool.

@Jason @KhaosMuffins @everyone

i Don't care about frame advantage. but if i get the mixup right. then the conversion shouldn't be wonky. and most definitely shouldn't leave fukua be stiff. In any case i already left my sentiments on the changes.
Edit: spacing L shadow asks for some jackass to just upforward or even upback because Shadows do not trigger upback!
 
Fuck off, are you seriously claiming LK Shadow being -2 makes it absolutely worthless?

To put things in perspective; Big Band LP Brass. Amazing move, one of his best. -4 on block and can't combo off of it outside of horn crush or an assist. LK Shadow is -2 on block, has just as good range, if not better, and can be combo'd off of.

Secondly, M Shadow is really good. You whine about spacing lk shadows because oh noooooo up-back (and I mean, god forbid you have to take a risk in this game), but it's almost like MK Shadow is a good anti-air tool.

To recap, you're complaining about having having a strange conversion from your safe on block, combo-able after, amazing neutral game tool and making a complete ass of yourself in the process.
 
To be fair~ Brass hits a bit more of the screen and has like half the startup, so these two aren't really comparable.

LK.Shadow is probably fine at -2 on block though

I would prefer if Shadows only gained some recovery and lost a bunch of blockstun, instead of all the recovery causing you to freeze in place for 100 years

I still think M.Shadow should have a really really small minimum range, to not hit people who crossed you up

I'm just waiting for the next batch of changes, too lazy atm
 
I didn't really take the startup into account because it's not like people react to Shadow start-up in this game anyways. =\

Edit: Also it often seems like outside of a mashed super/dp, trying to punish Shadow on reaction ends with you getting counterhit anyways.
 
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It doesn't even have to be a reaction (though this is certainly quite possible); at midrange if say Parasoul does a Dashjump jHP you just get CHd out of your Shadow startup because it's 30 frames long; Brass in the same scenario would punch Parasoul in the face.

Why would you use LK.Shadow in neutral at all now - it can get jumped over at any time, has like 30f startup and is -ALOT on whiff? At this point, Fortune doesn't even mind going headless anymore.
 
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@Yaya
yes use profanity.
stop comparing characters cause they play different.

didn't i say that i don't care about frame advantage?
anyways lets drop it since this won't get anywhere shall we?

Edit: plus you can be poked out of shadow so what exactly are you trying to gain from calling me an ass and overlooking the fact that Shadows are not a true blockstring?
 
Fair enough. LK Shadow definitely is pretty bad in neutral now, but with it still being good in pressure and MK Shadow still being a thing, I don't see any problem.

@Dreamepitaph: I'm just gonna ask you to scroll back up to @Jason's post.
 
Yaya said:
Fair enough. LK Shadow definitely is pretty bad in neutral now, but with it still being good in pressure and MK Shadow still being a thing, I don't see any problem.

It's not good in pressure. Not by herself anyways.
 
just read jason's post. i understand now. however i already put my thoughts in a big spoiler. so w.e happens happens
 
I actually like them being OP at a certain range. Just don't know why they have to be a great tool at every range.

Currently, so long as Fukua gets an mk shadow out, she gains the advantage at literally every range in the game except full screen (where she still has the advantage against everyone except Peacock and possibly Parasoul).

Also, shadows can hit you out of pre-jump frames, no? If so, then while they don't keep you grounded like some moves do, they can hit and convert in surprising situations.

I'm pretty sure I've been combo'd because Fukua ended her blockstring with a clone to make it super safe and it caught me up-backing, though I could be wrong.
 
Yaya said:
I didn't really take the startup into account because it's not like people react to Shadow start-up in this game anyways. =\
What are shadow's startup times? Cause I've reacted to the startup with c.lk on quite a few occasions. Not always, but I don't feel like they're unreactable.
 
Zidiane said:
What are shadow's startup times? Cause I've reacted to the startup with c.lk on quite a few occasions. Not always, but I don't feel like they're unreactable.

With bella I'm like
lol they're shadowing time to do a command grab or mash any super

edit: man you can even reflect loool. bella's the best
 
Seeing as to how i dont play fukua, i dont understand the whining in regards to her nerfs... They seem common sense. She did do to much damage for her character style. As far as her shadows are concerned... That much plus on block? That just seems dumb, like not even in the realm of makes any sense, just dumb, like an oversight dumb.

But idk i dont use the character. But as far as mixup game goes fukua seems to be on par of not better than anyone else so i dont see the reason for even needing lk shadow to give full combo.

I mean BB giant step is highly disadvantaged on block and yet ive never asked for it to be plus even though it ALSO has big startup...


And where mixups are concerned, it seems like the simple cr.lk:


Into l shadow
Or into h shadow
Or into command grab
Or into regular grab
Or into cr.mk...


Seems like some fantastic mixup. I should know since i use painwheel with near the same kinds of options off of either st.lp. But pws mixups are better because they arent one off..
But painwheel also doesnt have fukuas midscreen retail damage nor fukuas retail neutral... So it seems fair... More than fair for fukua.



I use giant step and h brass all the time with BB... when i guess wrong i go for a ride... EVERYTIME. It seems like fukua can make guesses and be safe though so... How's this such a bad thing? Cause she cant make a guess and have frame advantage afterwards? She isnt painwheel or filia, and she has the oppressive neutral that neither other character has, to prove it.


So yeah, the fukua reaction is confusing for me.

This isnt to say that i know everything or even anything about the character, i dont use her, so I'm bound to be wrong in some respects... The arguments in her favor just seem very wonky on the outside looking in.
 
I'm not sure off the top of my head but does LK shadow catch people that try to upback after a pushblock?
 
Dreamepitaph said:
apparently noone pushblocks fukua or challenges her if she does shadows.


Dont know if that is in reply to what i said... But pushblock is also pretty easy to manage:

If they pb your cr.lk then run in and throw them instead. Or run in and and assist bait via do nothing and call your assist.

With fukua specifically if you dont want to bank everything on a pb bait, then you can cr.lk xx m shadow for pressure no matter what hey can interrupt of course but thats the risk you take to increase pressure.. The same risk that my pw takes to give pressure... Fly isnt free pressure but id be lying my ass off if i said it wasnt at the very least... Good... Which it is. And fly pressure generally has at least a 23 frame startup.

Yet i use fly pressure all day... And i dont even have a command grab to beat pushblocks like the easiest way in the world...

If i used fukua i would have literally zero problems opening people up.

Getting close... Thats another thing... But there's the rub and fukua has one of the best get close tools in the game... M shadow.
 
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