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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Damage (50% damage is still damage), meter for you as well, and most importantly: momentum.
If they escape then... well... it sucks that you didn't read them correctly. That's on you. You can still possibly maintain pressure or condition them to act a certain way.

The offense in this game is ridiculous already. Creating better defensive options to balance things out is what seems more fair.

Edit: Alpha counters make me sad. I wish they were somehow better (yet at the same time I don't because if they ended up being super good then oooooh boy). :(
 
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I was kind of wtf about the whole upback thing at first but then I just started hitting people low a lot more since they wanted to upback so much more.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Damage (50% damage is still damage), meter for you as well, and most importantly: momentum.
If they escape then... well... it sucks that you didn't read them correctly. That's on you. You can still possibly maintain pressure or condition them to act a certain way.

The offense in this game is ridiculous already. Creating better defensive options to balance things out is what seems more fair.


Then we can agree to disagree. I play against players that have stellar defense already (before these changes). It is possible to have, there are many defensive option selects in the game that few people are currently using.

Id be fine with the changes if those option selects were taken out, or if airthrows (not ground throws) got at least some of the scaling taken away. But as it is now, if you get thrown, you can actually breath a sigh of relief because you are taking scaled damage and gaining a ton of meter as well. Its a great option select of sorts:

"Hmm I'll allow myself to not concentrate on throw breaking so that i can just look for the high optimal starter all day, that way if i do happen to get thrown and either lose the character or reset, i still make a ton of meter anyways and can easily kill with my second character with meter dump strats"

Is what i already have to play against, and its so good that ive started to use and incorporate it myself because its so good... And yes ive had very good results doing this.


Making upback even better just makes the situation even worse because the way to beat either defense is throw... Which scales damage and gives tons of meter.
 
The problem is simple @Dime_x :
If you remove preblock v air, but make people unable to block Highs during prejump, everyone and their fucking mother is gonna get hit a zillion times by jumpins when they are trying to upback. That's clearly not a nice thing.
What WOULD be possible (I think) is something along the lines of "Can block high during upback, but not mid" (this would bring all the assist and projectile annoyances back), or maybe "Can block high/projectiles/assists during upback, but not 'normal hits' mid" (this would only bring the far range upback baits back; eg Titan Knuckle, Silver Chord) -- but this wouldn't help Painwheel at all, so bleb

While this change makes PW net offence worse, look at what it does to her defence~ For one, buffing defence for everybody is obviously a more useful thing for characters who used to have shit defence. For two, the no-preblock-v-air means that "jumpback + air button" is a legit AA (as it is in say Streetfighter) - and you know who has access to an armored air button and is the uncrowned queen of fully converting from any stray jHit?
This makes it harder for you to kill your opponent's off one touch, but I would play around some with AA jumpback jMK xx Fly jMK and similar things before I complained too much.
 
What I do agree with is that holding Back instead of Upback on defence seems to have little to no use at this point.
The list pretty much goes:
- Don't get thrown by Excel/A-Train
- Don't get thrown by "Emptyjump"-LowAirthrow
- Don't get throws by Jumpforward-Airthrow
- Being able to switch guard (A quick B to DB works; UB to DB still has you in jumpstart and may cause you to get hit by lows)
That's not a really long list, and the things it helps against are mostly SUPER reads by your opponent.

Anyone figure out things how to fix that? Or does anyone even care about fixing that?
An idea I had was:
- You can only AG if you started from B, not UB (B-DB gives you AG as before, blocking a high with UB, holding UB, then pushblock-DB doesn't actually give you the AG)
Or harsher:
- You can only AG if you blocked the blockstring-starting mid/high standing (Blocking a high with UB, switching to B, then pushblock-DB doesn't actually give you the AG)
Or the harshest:
- Can't pushblock a hit that you blocked during jump startup

The 2nd one is the one I like the least, because it would get confusing;
dunno if the 3rd would be too much, the first sounds "pretty simple" and would give a pretty clear reason to at least return to back before you pushblock.
 
I get that there are other ways of doing offense to facilitate beating the new defense. What i DO NOT agree with is needing new defensive buffs in the first place.

That is why i think i just wont ever agree with any argument in favor of the upback buff. Because to me, upback was already strong enough.

It seems to me that people arent using the already accessible defensive options that are already in the game.

As far as this buffing painwheels defense, that would be good, if i thought she needed it, but i dont, and i already have good defense. And this doesnt buff her defense in any way that i think she would actually need it.


She finally became a respectable character and then this comes around... Sigh. W/e.
 
The reason I warmed up to the upback change is because punishing upback is way more deliberate now instead of lucking out by stuff like assists randomly catching your prejump and such. A lot of the time people would get clipped by stuff like that while just trying to jump back and not even being used as a means to block a mixup.

However this does negatively effect painwheel more than anyone else.
 
I imagine this experiment makes elizas dp completely safe as an assist punish, since she won't get hit by projectiles for it
 
Oh, the preblock changes also kills my Launch Tag OS....

..... :(

I was real proud of that sweet piece of tech even though I was the only one using it and mcpeanuts and dime where the only ones starting to learn it.

It's probably better for the game for the OS to not work but it feels like a giant slap in the face for some sweet tech you made to get patched out.
 
Even though PW has like the best buttons in the air and possibly the worst defense on the ground. Haven't seen any mention of PW now more easily able to upback Air Super. IMO, PW gains a lot more on defense than she loses on offense.

This is one of those big changes that you should probably invest a lot of time playing with.
 
I like the change because I don't have to eat whiffed air attack putting me into preblock so I have to hold this assist. now i can escape those options easily
 
The only alternative I really would accept for Monster/Moai is Monster is QCB+KK on the ground and Moai is QCB+KK in the air, but then you can't DHC into Moai.
I could make it DD+KK, though you do have like 90f to do DDD.

Jason said:
Even low-hitting assists don't beat up+back which I think is unintentional? Either way this is a big change, I'm not even sure what the full implications of it are but damn.
They beat it for me, what kinda test you got?

agent13 said:
I will be honest, painwheel will get hit pretty hard with this, but hopefully i can get out of that stupid cilia slide, j. hp set up now
Dime_x said:
But high blocking for upback? I HATE this idea. Like i really hate it and it will make pw at the very least, free to upback
Since they went into preblock from 99% of attacks before when holding Up-Back, unless you were abusing assists/projectiles not causing preblock (which PW wasn't and which mostly counts as a bug anyway), in terms of what hits Up-Back there is NO DIFFERENCE between this and the retail game when you are attacking someone on the ground. ZERO. They cannot now escape anything in melee range that hits Up-Back that they couldn't escape by holding Up-Back before. With jumpins they are more likely to get airborne, but you weren't hitting someone up-backing with a jumpin anyway.
So...what really changed, besides your interpretation of the whole thing? I mean seriously, write it out. It sounds like you dislike the no-preblock-vs-air thing, rather than the other thing which mostly fixes assists etc.

SonicFox5000 said:
What about preblock on cere's level 3
Kinda want to jump and bait super LMFAO CANT MOVE HOLD THIS LOW
There are two other directions that jump, if you get stuck holding Up-Back for 28f that's your bad innit?
 
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Mike_Z said:
They beat it for me, what kinda test you got?

I tested it again and it looks like you're right. They do beat up+back. Of course the window is only 4 frames but that's no different than the retail version.

I think I was getting it confused with the dummy blocking during its landing frames from an empty jump which is normal.
 
@Dime_x , what's your specific issue?

I don't see this being a nerf to PW at all. What scenario are you seeing it being a nerf to PW?
 
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Spencer said:
@Dime_x , what's your specific issue?

I don't see this being a nerf to PW at all. What scenario are you seeing it being a nerf to PW?

Well, one specific setup I've seen that it messes with is the j.HP + Low hitting assist thing.

Basically PW floats there charging j.HP forcing the opponent into pre-block so they can't get off the ground with up+back while Cilia Slide or something like that hits them low. Since air moves don't cause grounded preblock anymore you're able to chicken-guard the PW j.HP and avoid having to take the mixup. In Retail you'd just have to guess when PW was going to release the j.HP and block high/low.

You could get out of it by jumping straight up or up+forward and then blocking but there's a chance you'll get caught during a frame where you're not blocking at all, which isn't the case in the beta.

Incidentally that setup is also mash-proof since you'll hit the j.HP's armor frames and PW can air-super after you absorb the first hit of their reversal.
 
Mike_Z said:
There are two other directions that jump, if you get stuck holding Up-Back for 28f that's your bad innit?
B-but its so stressful ;(
I wanna jump back IAD HK ;A;
 
Jason said:
Bikes have always been plus on block in the corner.

No...oh my god no
Everytime i do it with my back right to the corner i'm always at like -5
 
Wait, that bit about Bikes in the corner in the update was a change? I thought Mike was just stating what Bikes has always been.
 
Could throws be untechable from counter hit stagger? Not if you combo into it from a counter hit (or maybe if you do as an extra reward), but if the stagger move itself was a counter hit. That wouldn't count as an exception would it? It seems like it would be the best of both worlds. Peacock combos aren't busted, but people have something to gain from using stagger moves.
 
Dhoppler said:
people have something to gain from using stagger moves.
Like what? I mean, do you really think that a Bella who landed CH s.MP is gonna use that closerange stagger to Throw, instead of landing a full combo?
Even for Peacock, that sliding KD instead of a full combo doesn't exactly look worth it?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Like what? I mean, do you really think that a Bella who landed CH s.MP is gonna use that closerange stagger to Throw, instead of landing a full combo?
Even for Peacock, that sliding KD instead of a full combo doesn't exactly look worth it?
She gets to do guaranteed lenny > level 3
 
I'm in favor of the new changes to up-back. It honestly doesn't feel that different from blocking before other than the fact that it makes dealing with certain assist setups a little easier. I especially like not getting stuck in pre-block to aerials because it always used to feel like I was having my movement forcibly stunted.
 
Meh, I dunno. I'm not really invested in it. It was just a suggestion in case Mike wanted to implement the no-throw-tech-out-of-stagger idea.

If it works out of counter hit or counter hit combos then it's a bit of an extra reward for those, I guess.
 
ClarenceMage said:
22KK instead of 222KK sounds reasonable to me though, but it might cause some people to accidentally get it while doing other things but I personally don't ever remember accidentally getting a 22 input that I didn't want in a game.

In all my Eddie/Carmine play, I've never accidentally gotten an Invite to Hell that I didn't want or missed one that I did want. SG's really lenient about inputs but even so, I really doubt it's something people will run into.

IsaVulpes said:
:D::D::D::KK: definitely sounds very weird, but I don't have the Beta atm so I can't tell whether it's actually hard or just silly looking; :D::D::KK::KK::KK: for old Pinion Dash never felt any difficult

222KK is fine, it just doesn't "feel" as good as 22KK in that combos-are-punching-rhythm-games sort of way. I do play on pad though, so maybe it's a different/harder thing for stick players, but I doubt it.

Stuff said:
You don't know how much I love that you don't go into preblock when you're on the ground and an air attack happens. It makes positioning after a burst so much better.

I'm so happy about this. A couple of my baits are so much easier to convert now.
 
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On the subject of the puddle input, I'd like it if it got changed to something like 22 or 222 because on occasion I've tried to go from crouching block to cilia slide and gotten the super instead.

That being said I don't have good execution and I don't play double.
 
Fizzxwizz said:
On the subject of the puddle input, I'd like it if it got changed to something like 22 or 222 because on occasion I've tried to go from crouching block to cilia slide and gotten the super instead.

That being said I don't have good execution and I don't play double.
It's funny you mention that, because I used to get the same thing but with level 5. However since you don't usually have 5 bars, it didn't come up in actual matches very often. It was just a training mode thing.
 
Mike_Z said:
It sounds like you dislike the no-preblock-vs-air thing, rather than the other thing which mostly fixes assists etc.


Yes i didnt state my case in the correct way. But yes the no preblocking air attacks is what is of primary concern to me.

Some concepts tested on retail and then on beta:

All tests are versus a standing grounded painwheel in the mirror 1v1


Test 1

Cr.lk xx fly df j.lk

Cr.lk hits on retail = opponent forced to ground block the j.lk even when holding upback
Cr.lk blocked on retail = opponent forced to ground block the j.lk even when holding upback

Cr.lk hits on beta = opponent can upback the j.lk which wiffs completely.
Cr.lk blocked on beta = opponent can airblock the j.lk and gain all the resources that that entails such as immediate landing recovery and having access to air supers as well as not being able to be crossed up via fly...


Test 2

J.mp (4) xx fly f+j.hk

J.mp blocked on retail = opponent forced to ground block j.hk even when holding up back

J.mp blocked on beta = opponent can easily take to the air via up back


Point being that any fly mixups can simply be upbacked out of now which is a huge nerf to painwheels offense cause it means having to go for more scaled air throws, or having to go for more ground confirms via a low.


On paper it doesnt seem bad because that just seems natural but the big culprit here is that when upback is combined with pushblock, painwheels offense will be very watered down because she isnt going to be able to pressure against both now the way shes currently able to in retail.


And that really sucks because pw isnt a bastion of speed and she has to really make her blocked touches count since she wont be winning any games with stinger chip damage or general keepaway.

Fly pressure mixups were my bread and butter offense, but now upback is just going to kill that.


So it doesnt seem happy days to me.
 
I don't know, man. Up-back was already pretty damn strong vs a PW just going for an overhead reset.

Even on retail, you've got to get your opponent to respect that they can't always up-back. Even in your examples, if they up-back and guess wrong, you're c.mk hits low so it isn't the old days where they can just up-back after your c.lk and be immune to everything.

I'll look to get a set in with whomever wants one and judge for myself, but my intuition says this is a good call.

Not to mention that we are teeming with resets. The loss of one is likely a minor thing.
 
worldjem said:
I think the colours on fukua shadows make them too easy to react to.

Wasn't that the point?

@Dime_x

Ran a set and didn't affect a thing to be honest. I don't know that I would have even noticed had I not been paying attention to the beta notes. Even hit with a couple of xx fly > 3j.lk. Things like a slowboat j.hk cross up still hit and c.lk, c.lk are of course lovely.

Also had some luck xx fly and waiting for a throw.

Obviously 10 games doesn't really count as evidence, but so far, I dig it.
 
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