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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

dekillsage said:
reaction time is not something you can learn or teach -_-

Reaction time is ABSOLUTELY something you can practise.

I could not confirm off of 2 normals in KoF until I grinded and practised it. Before then, I had to do 3 and that was because my reaction times weren't practised in that situation.
 
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Everybody in this game has normals with ridiculous hitstun (In comparison to other games, and even in SG there's Fukua)

Confirming a full HD Combo from 2 cB's (cLK) is a standard in high level KOF btw, so no, it's not impossible to have good hit confirms.

Edit: Got ninja'd with the KOF mention :V
 
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- People confirm off Makoto cr.Short in 3s, which is 7f+5f hitstop.
- Two cr.Shorts with Ken is 20f, that's EASILY confirmable.

That aside, it's probably enough to remove the hit on the reflect rather than making it vulnerable, although I do like the idea of her getting pasted because you reflected a thing at an assist.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
The reason that 18 frame overheads etc are harder to react to is because you don't know when or if they are going to happen, and if you are trying to raw react to something without expecting it, it is much harder.


Correction... Just because. 18 frame overheads arent just hard to react to because of their speed. They are hard to react to because of their telegraph.

18 frames assumes that you can see frame 1 of the move and react to it... I dont think many people can do this though. Let's take another example. A 30 frame overhead. But it looks exactly like a mid hitting move until the last 5 frames. You have 5 frames to react. Not 30. People will get hit by that shit all day.

And it goes on and on with like paras standing overhead... Its hard to "see" before her gun goes up in the air, and by that time youve lost half of your reaction frames.

But then compare it to overheads that are off the ground on frame 1... Those are much easier to see because its easier to recognize off the ground is an overhead from the simple act of it being off the ground than trying to actually fully recognize the move. As far as BB confirming cr.lk... I will have to see.


Just tried it...seems impossible. Are you sure you arent stand confirming? If the dummy is standing, it will block low when it blocks but stand when it gets hit. Make sure you are doing the confirm against a croucher.
 
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Uzu said:
Everybody in this game has normals with ridiculous hitstun (In comparison to other games, and even in SG there's Fukua)

Confirming a full HD Combo from 2 cB's (cLK) is a standard in high level KOF btw, so no, it's not impossible to have good hit confirms.

Edit: Got ninja'd with the KOF mention :V

I find it hard to believe anyone goes
*cr.lk* oh it hit, good thing I have the reaction to confirm off it.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
My raw reaction times are pretty average, it's only due to practise that they're higher in fighting games.
For simple clicktests like this, the average reaction time is 220-230ms; 270 is exceptionally slow.
Things. Are you sure your monitor doesn't lag~

Mike_Z said:
- People confirm off Makoto cr.Short in 3s, which is 7f+5f hitstop.
Is this an actual confirm or a "I know it will hit beforehand" kinda thing? That sounds.. let's call it unreliable.
 
dekillsage said:
I find it hard to believe anyone goes
*cr.lk* oh it hit, good thing I have the reaction to confirm off it.

It's SG.

Watch some people play games with a harder execution barrier and you'd be impressed.
 
Like i said before there are different confirms, like stand confirms and stuff, in 3s.
 
IsaVulpes said:
For simple clicktests like this, the average reaction time is 220-230ms; 270 is exceptionally slow.
Things. Are you sure your monitor doesn't lag~

It might be my laptop trackpad click that's causing extra lag. I'm on a macbook pro, you see, and while I don't think the screen is laggy the trackpad might just be shit. I'll have a go with an actual mouse.

250 ms instead of 270. Yeah, my average reaction times are pretty slow.

BUT, Pretty slow reaction times are apparently good enough to confirm c.LK c.LK in kof, and c.LK into c.MP with big band!
 
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Uzu said:
It's SG.

Watch some people play games with a harder execution barrier and you'd be impressed.

Watching someone go cr.lk cr.lk into a full combo is not the same as someone going cr.lk did it hit y/n okay I confirmed it hit here we go.
 
dekillsage said:
here we go.
GET READY FOR A SHOWSTOPPER!

Oh sorry, couldn't help myself.


On a more serious note, I was messing in the beta earlier and was doing ground throw, SoID hold, argus. For some reason Bella seemed to randomly restand and would be able to block the second part of argus. It happened a few times in a row but then I couldn't recreate it. Argus is a weird super lol
 
dekillsage said:
Watching someone go cr.lk cr.lk into a full combo is not the same as someone going cr.lk did it hit y/n okay I confirmed it hit here we go.

As I mentioned before, it being a c.LK is completely meaningless.

What does have meaning is how much time you actually have to confirm it, including hitstop, frame advantage, and the startup of the move you're canceling into.

Valentine's c.LP can be confirmed on raw reaction tooooo, so can Peacock's c.LP into c.LK... I've gone through all the characters I can play and made an effort to find what I can and cannot reasonably confirm from.
 
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My times for benchmark are terrible. My times for sheep test much better. Its harder for people to distinguish color from movement.

Movement means predators and shit trying to kill you and get away. Color is poisonous frogs and flowers. We had no need to distinguish colors fast as a species, but movement we sure as hell do. And movement is more applicable to fighting games than color.
 
ClarenceMage said:
As I mentioned before, it being a c.LK is completely meaningless.

What does have meaning is how much time you actually have to confirm it, including hitstop, frame advantage, and the startup of the move you're canceling into.

Valentine's c.LP can be confirmed on raw reaction tooooo, so can Peacock's c.LP into c.LK... I've gone through all the characters I can play and made an effort to find what I can and cannot reasonably confirm from.


Let's say this is true and you can do this.. Consistently, how do you practice it and how long does it take to get consistent?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Is this an actual confirm or a "I know it will hit beforehand" kinda thing? That sounds.. let's call it unreliable.
A confirm, as in a cr.Short QCTx2...did it hit? Okay, Punch.

dekillsage said:
I find it hard to believe anyone goes
*cr.lk* oh it hit, good thing I have the reaction to confirm off it.
I have seen your replays, so I will BET you don't believe this. :^P

But it is completely true. One cr.Short is hard in 3s, but two is easy, and two is about the length of time you have to confirm off one light in SG because in SG you can hit the next button well after the previous move connected. 18f to confirm whether or not to hit another button, when your choice is only "hit it or don't hit it"is NOT hard with practice.
 
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dekillsage said:
Watching someone go cr.lk cr.lk into a full combo is not the same as someone going cr.lk did it hit y/n okay I confirmed it hit here we go.
I personally go off sound.

There's a pretty distinct difference between blocked buttons and buttons that hit in this game.

You've never played in ggpo, hit someone, have the rollback say "nu uh" and you yell out "oh come on, I HEARD it HIT!?" ?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
frame advantage

Frame advantage on hit is the difference between their hitstun and your move's recovery, and considering that if you're canceling into something as your confirm your recovery is kinda meaningless, you can understand why I omitted it.

Unless your hitconfirm is a link, then frame advantage matters.

@iLoli omfg all the timmeeee
 
Mike_Z said:
A confirm, as in a cr.Short QCTx2...did it hit? Okay, Punch.


I have seen your replays, so I will BET you don't believe this. :^P

But it is completely true. One cr.Short is hard in 3s, but two is easy, and two is about the length of time you have to confirm off one light in SG because in SG you can hit the next button well after the previous move connected. 18f to confirm whether or not to hit another button, when your choice is only "hit it or don't hit it"is NOT hard with practice.

If I can't do this within a week or practice then welp. Will see I guess
iLoli said:
I personally go off sound.

There's a pretty distinct difference between blocked buttons and buttons that hit in this game.

You've never played in ggpo, hit someone, have the rollback say "nu uh" and you yell out "oh come on, I HEARD it HIT!?" ?

Outside of tournament I usually play this game without sound. I only use sound to /try/ to react to peacocks teleport, squigly's overhead/divekicks, fukuas armored command grab, but I almost never actually react to those things anyways.
 
ClarenceMage said:
you can understand why I omitted it.

Unless your hitconfirm is a link, then frame advantage matters.
You didn't omit it, I corrected you Oo

And no, for confirms that are links, the advantage still doesn't matter
The link gets harder if you have less frame advantage, the confirm doesn't.
 
ClarenceMage said:
It might be my laptop trackpad click that's causing extra lag. I'm on a macbook pro, you see, and while I don't think the screen is laggy the trackpad might just be shit. I'll have a go with an actual mouse.

250 ms instead of 270. Yeah, my average reaction times are pretty slow.

BUT, Pretty slow reaction times are apparently good enough to confirm c.LK c.LK in kof, and c.LK into c.MP with big band!
I averaged 300 and I hate all of you.
 
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dekillsage said:
Watching someone go cr.lk cr.lk into a full combo is not the same as someone going cr.lk did it hit y/n okay I confirmed it hit here we go.

I wasn't talking about someone doing cLK cLK to punish a very unsafe move, i'm talking about using cLK cLK as a pressure blockstring (Example cB cB *wait* dash in cB cB etc).

There's a reason why many KOF players just do the crouching dummy random guard training. I've played Juicebox a couple times on KOFXIII (With non GGPO online) and i can tell you that he would just do cB cB and confirm whether it hit or not before doing something else, if they did hit he would then do the full HD combo if they didn't he would do something else.

And he's just one of many players that have this kind of consistency, hit confirming is something you can absolutely practice.
 
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Are we seriously arguing about hit confirms being possible? Seriously?
 
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Dhoppler said:
Are we seriously arguing about hit confirms being possible? Seriously?

The Evo 2014 Skullgirls champion doesn't even know how to hitconfirm right so if that isn't telling then I don't know what is.
 
IsaVulpes said:
You didn't omit it, I corrected you Oo


The link gets harder if you have less frame advantage, the confirm doesn't.

No this is wrong. The more frame advantage you have on a link the more time you have to confirm it.

Using stupid numbers:

Cr.lk is +100 on hit. You are using a 10 frame move to link. Not counting hitstop, you have 90 frames to confirm. Now take a cr.lk that is +5 on hit, you are confirming into a 3 frame move. You have 2 frames to confirm, not counting hitstop.

Hitstop is what makes the second example plausible in most fighting games. But advantage adds crucial frames of reaction time as well.

For a more realistic example of a dog shit easy 1 hi link confirm that most people that play sg are familiar with:

Updo assist. Its one hit. We can confirm it on block into a tick throw, or a raw throw, and on hit into a dash up conversion.


The fact that updo assist on hit is like plus 80 or so... Tends to help
 
Mike_Z said:
HK version becomes current MK version (stops in front of them).
MK version becomes current LK version (stops halfway to them).
LK version always moves her forward a set very small distance, about as far as HK goes when they are in a little bit front of you, and will appear behind them if they are inside that distance.


This would be a constant regardless of the situation, or for only when assists are on screen? If constant, would it be too much to ask for the light version to recover faster based on the fact that at close range there's no time to set something up to make a teleport safe? Either way, I personally would just prefer the current experiment fixed so that teleports won't cross up while an assist is actively attacking. But that's just me.
 
Dime_x said:
Using stupid numbers:

Cr.lk is +100 on hit. You are using a 10 frame move to link. Not counting hitstop, you have 90 frames to confirm.
This c.LK has 0f recovery or what?

It looks like this:
1] c.LK which has 50f hitstun and 10f recovery (+40 on hit), linking to 5f Normal: 45f to confirm (50f hitstun - 5f startup), 35f link
2] c.LK which has 50f hitstun and 45f recovery (+5 on hit), linking to 5f Normal: 45f to confirm (50f hitstun - 5f startup), 1f link

Whether you spend the time you have to confirm in a move's recovery or in "I can do anything" is completely irrelevant
What matters is hitstop+hitstun-startupofthenextmove; whether the move is +100 or +5 on hit matters for how hard the LINK is, not for how difficult it is to confirm that you hit at all.

E: If it's simpler with dumber numbers:

You have a move that has 500f hitstun and is +0 on hit (=also has 500f recovery)
- Are you telling me it's impossible to confirm whether you hit with this thing, because it only has 0f frame advantage? Despite a hit meaning that you sit around for 30 seconds, doing nothing other than admiring your opponent's reelback animation.
- Are you also telling me that it would be easier to confirm that this hit if it had 100f recovery less (was +100 on hit)? Despite the opponent being stuck in the exact same 500f hitstun as before.
 
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Hilary said:
why_couldnt_PNW_beat_skarmands_peacock.mp4
Perfect
with a steamroller
 
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Swiftfox-Dash said:
On a more serious note, I was messing in the beta earlier and was doing ground throw, SoID hold, argus. For some reason Bella seemed to randomly restand and would be able to block the second part of argus. It happened a few times in a row but then I couldn't recreate it. Argus is a weird super lol

I can confirm that I had this happen as well. I slowed it down and the cause seemed to be that most of the small lasers grouped towards the top at the start where they would have hit if there were more lasers towards the bottom at the start.
 
Well I got shot down pretty hard. Sorry to derail the thread.

I guess I'm not as good at this game as I thought I was.... and I was already convinced that I was hopelessly awful at it.

So hopelessly awful - 1
 
ClarenceMage said:
The Evo 2014 Skullgirls champion doesn't even know how to hitconfirm right so if that isn't telling then I don't know what is.

You mean, in this game because of chains? Or in general?

dekillsage said:
yeah I kinda did the j.hp so good people were like man wish you didn't do the j.hp so good


Jesus Christ. Go play literally any other fighter competitively for a month.

Wait a minute. Does Double even have a safe block string that would make hit confirms relevant anyways?

Mike, is this part of getting past "first order good"?

No but seriously, hit stun isn't so forthcoming in any other game. Though on the other hand, few things are + enough on hit for you stop your chain and link something else.
 
IsaVulpes said:
This c.LK has 0f recovery or what?

It looks like this:
1] c.LK which has 50f hitstun and 10f recovery (+40 on hit), linking to 5f Normal: 45f to confirm (50f hitstun - 5f startup), 35f link
2] c.LK which has 50f hitstun and 45f recovery (+5 on hit), linking to 5f Normal: 45f to confirm (50f hitstun - 5f startup), 1f link

Whether you spend the time you have to confirm in a move's recovery or in "I can do anything" is completely irrelevant
What matters is hitstop+hitstun-startupofthenextmove; whether the move is +100 or +5 on hit matters for how hard the LINK is, not for how difficult it is to confirm that you hit at all.


No, given your example, we are both right. They are one and the same. Advantage has something to do with how long you have to confirm and hitstop/stun does as well.

Which was the point i was making. I wasnt saying that hitstop and and hitstun had nothing to do with it. I was simply saying that advantage has something to do with it as well, which it does.

If i do pw lp stinger, i can do whatever i want before confirming that it hit, because it has so much advantage. Yes you are correct that the resultant link is piss poor easy, but that doesnt mean that advantage didnt make the link an easy confirm ALSO. I can see it get blocked and be like... Yeah I'm not going to do this unsafe move now. Or see it hit and be like yeah I'm going to do this unsafe hit now since he cant block it.
 
Dhoppler said:
Jesus Christ. Go play literally any other fighter competitively for a month.

Wait a minute. Does Double even have a safe block string that would make hit confirms relevant anyways?

Mike, is this part of getting past "first order good"?

No but seriously, hit stun isn't so forthcoming in any other game. Though on the other hand, few things are + enough on hit for you stop your chain and link something else.

Apparently I need this skill to be good
????
okaaaay lol
 
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Dime_x said:
Advantage has something to do with how long you have to confirm and hitstop/stun does as well.
The only thing that advantage has to do with how long you have to confirm is that a move which is +100 on hit at least needs to have 100f hitstun, which is a boatload. But all of this is the hitstun, none of this the frame advantage.
If you take a move which has 100f hitstun and 95f recovery, it is +5 on hit and NOT A SINGLE SHIT harder to confirm. Note how the frame advantage got reduced by 95% AND NOTHING CHANGED. This is a slight hint at: Frame advantage doesn't matter for crap.

There is no "we're both right", you're wrong.
 
Who wants to run a quick set on steam so I can test out the current changes? I voted and worked the evening shift so I haven't played them yet.
 
IsaVulpes said:
The only thing that advantage has to do with how long you have to confirm is that a move which is +100 on hit at least needs to have 100f hitstun, which is a boatload. But all of this is the hitstun, none of this the frame advantage.
If you take a move which has 100f hitstun and 95f recovery, it is +5 on hit and NOT A SINGLE SHIT harder to confirm. Note how the frame advantage got reduced by 95% AND NOTHING CHANGED. This is a slight hint at: Frame advantage doesn't matter for crap.

There is no "we're both right", you're wrong.


Um i still have no clue what you are talking about. And rather than try and decipher your words. I'll just assume that you are interchanging terms. All i know is that its easier to confirm things that are highly plus on hit. Whether that plus is hitstun/recovery/hitstop/gobbledygook shadow fear poison is immaterial to me.
 
dekillsage said:
Apparently I need this skill to be good
????
okaaaay lol


Evidently not. It's not like it matters when confirming in this game is done with chains or attacks that are plus forever on hit. How did we even get on this topic?
 
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