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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

I never said anything about fairness I just don't like it. Also Wing later only went low so he adapted to it which is I guess what your supposed to do (while I stuck with it because bad habits). I just don't like how easy it is to even block the cross up j.hk. I don't feel well when something is too easy (and I use the assist that kills everything!) but this is also still new so maybe it's okay.
 
After more playing, the upback change changes everything. I have to find new and exciting ways to pressure and open people up, ways that don't involve autopiloting into heavier air normals all day because now it won't keep them in preblock on the ground when they're upbacking. One good thing about the upback change is you can see when they chicken block your shit so you can react to "oh, they are upbacking, time to do [effective upback counter]".

This is gonna take some time.
 
ClarenceMage said:
After more playing, the upback change changes everything. I have to find new and exciting ways to pressure and open people up, ways that don't involve autopiloting into heavier air normals all day because now it won't keep them in preblock on the ground when they're upbacking. One good thing about the upback change is you can see when they chicken block your shit so you can react to "oh, they are upbacking, time to do [effective upback counter]".

This is gonna take some time.

Agreed 100%. It is a change that at first seems tiny, but it changes a ton of things. It has both buffed and nerfed parts of my gameplay. I'm still very much in favor of it, but the impact of it is pretty big.
 
with fukuas extra 4 frames startup on M shadow can you still combo from fortune headon groundthrow using QCF+LP-down + LK, J.HP?
 
Stuff said:
Also I don't like that I can block Filia's mix ups by upbacking due to no preblock when grounded near an air attack
And @Broken Loose
You would still have blocked it before this if it wasn't a low. C'mon.
 
I dunno it (cross up j.hk) usually just hit me before the change. Upback is all I do for defense unfortunately.

Then again I dunno how this game works yet. So did wing just mess up the mix up that many times? or maybe I did something I don't know about.
 
Really liking Beowulf, not sure what to do with his air chains from chair on launcher so much yet but I assume since he's incomplete that it's simply because he's missing a special or something. Or I'm dumb! The most I got off after cHP (chair on) is jLK jMP jLP jLK jMP and then my combo is over.

On the ground he has plenty of routes though after removing his chair, so he's definitely playable as he stands. The hop jMP link after LChair is a BIT tough but it's not too much of a bother.

Can't wait to see what else this guy can do.
 
Stuff said:
I dunno it (cross up j.hk) usually just hit me before the change. Upback is all I do for defense unfortunately.

Then again I dunno how this game works yet. So did wing just mess up the mix up that many times? or maybe I did something I don't know about.

Probably didn't adjust to the changes in time. Wing doesn't use a lot of Filia's set ups
 
I wasn't making any claims about fairness or whether or not anything or anybody was too good or too bad. I was just saying that the bulk of the changes hit Wing very hard and that his fights against Stuff demonstrate them clearly (including the portions where Wing adapts to the changes in the third set). Wing obviously didn't not win the tournament, but he came close to it which brought up the point of discussion.

Mike_Z said:
And @Broken Loose
You would still have blocked it before this if it wasn't a low. C'mon.

However, I'm actually pretty sure that upback blocks crossup j.HK now more often than not because your collision box prevents the crossup.


edit: I will make the claim that I think if Wing went solo Parasoul he wouldn't have even been sent to Loser's and if he went solo Filia he would have been eliminated. Just as an observation.
 
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Broken Loose said:
edit: I will make the claim that I think if Wing went solo Parasoul he wouldn't have even been sent to Loser's and if he went solo Filia he would have been eliminated. Just as an observation.
Been waiting a looooong time for this:
You have no idea what you're talking about. Parasoul did WAY less for him vs Stuff than Filia did, whether or not she landed mixups.

MegamanDS said:
@Mike_Z find me a girlfriend who supports my Skullgirls addiction
Paging @dapurplesharpie @Weatherbee @DDB
Choose wisely, Dan. Genitalia aren't everything.
 
@Mike_Z

Unfortunately i cant test the new buer against opponents ATM and wont be able to for awhile probably but my gut reaction and instinct is that this upback buff is going to stay and if it does, then this new hk buer certainly helps when combined with thresher always hitting from ground hk and air mk buers.

If i could posit a question while temporarily unignored:

I'm terrible at reading between the lines for changes that you make so I'm wondering why this upback buff is being tested out and may eventually be in the retail? Was it to fix something specific or just to make the gameplay more to your vision?
 
(You're still ignored, but you've been better lately, surprisingly.)

Dime_x said:
I'm terrible at reading between the lines for changes that you make so I'm wondering why this upback buff is being tested out and may eventually be in the retail? Was it to fix something specific or just to make the gameplay more to your vision?
I come from MvC2 and older versus games, where upback is extremely powerful. You just go into the air and in some cases can't even be hit low - Sentinel can upback a meaty cr.RH from Magneto that is overlapping him as he wakes up.
The goal of going into preblock in SG when grounded vs close attacks is to make upback less good in that situation by allowing you to get hit low instead of jumping, which it does. Vanilla SG didn't have that.
The side effect of having you not jump at all when up-backing vs a jump-in is not entirely desired, and makes characters feel more sluggish in that situation, plus removes reactionary jumping moves as viable antiairs. It also doesn't help anything since you aren't being hit low by a jumpin. (IDGAF if you were using charging j.HP + low assist, that's DEFINITELY not intended.)
The additional effect of getting pasted for upbacking vs projectiles/assists/far normals is also definitely not intended, since in most cases up-back would be blocking high if you were to go into preblock. I class this as a bug. MvC2 has you go into preblock if anything is active anywhere on the screen, which is annoying but prevents this bug. Heh.

The fix is being tested now because I didn't have the tech to be able to distinguish the situations where I didn't want you stuck to the ground before.

So the current experiment:
- Doesn't allow you to block anything NEW that you wouldn't have blocked before, much as you want to believe it does - you still get hit by lows when up-backing. This is a major one and is the reason preblock works the way it did/does vs ground attacks, and is why I see a lot of this strange theory fighting as bunk.
- Still doesn't let you simply chicken-block to escape ground strings since you stay grounded.
- Doesn't get you hit by random things by preforming an input that normally blocks when outside preblock range (this counts as a bugfix, whether or nor that bug became a tactic).
- Allows you to chicken-block vs air, which both makes character movement FEEL better and additionally weakens instant overheads and repeated IAD pressure. All of which is fine with me.

In summary, up-back doesn't actually become a stronger tactic in most cases, if you know they're doing it then up-back still loses 100% to a low which will get you a full combo afterward. It makes up-back a more attractive guess, but in turn that's just gonna get you hit low more often. It may even prevent your opponent from randomly jumping around as the go-to tactic quite so much. Which I'm fine with too.

To put that another way - MvC2 is THE game in which up-back is the most powerful I have ever seen it, preblock doesn't stick you to the ground and sometimes you CAN'T be hit low cuz you go straight to airblock with no prejump animation...and Sentinel flying is the best tactic in the game, followed by Magneto and Storm trijumps. I don't think there's better evidence I can provide to indicate that up-back being good doesn't eliminate the usefulness of air attacks. SG even gets you hit by lows 100% of the time. :^)
 
There's a bug with Beowulf. If he kills a character and can still combo them, his cr.mk will restand them after they tech the grab.

If it's the final character they will do their time out animation.
If it's not the final character they will stand there until you hit them and they finally die again. It also triggers the piccola effect in the meantime.

@Zephyrel has the video evidence. Forgive the input display, we didn't know how the replay features worked while we were recording.

Is there another more direct thread for this?
 
So, now that PPK is no longer an input for pushblock, you can input reversal punch supers with motion + PPK during blockstun and not get pushblock instead of super.
Could we make this a quality-of-life change, where motion + PP during blockstun is disregarded as a pushblock input?
 
Broken Loose said:
However, I'm actually pretty sure that upback blocks crossup j.HK now more often than not because your collision box prevents the crossup.

I dunno, I'm no Filia player but after some testing in training mode it seems like j.HK or j.HP into Airdash crossup j.HK doesn't actually give the opponent enough time to chicken guard it and punish. It may actually be a true blockstring depending on how long your air dash is.

and in cases where the airdash crossup j.HK is done outside of a block string the move doesn't cause preblock until after you start pressing the button on the other side of the opponent at which point they're holding "up+back" in the wrong direction and get hit anyway.

Again, I'm not a Filia player but from the messing around I've done in training mode it doesn't actually seem to impact her as much as you'd think it does at first glance.
 
Ironically, what I said applies more to Valentine iad j.HP crossup than Filia iad j.HK, especially given how Val's goes from ridiculously ambiguous (where the Val players often don't know which side they'll end up on) to universally losing to upback. Against Filia, the timing is very tight but still possible. I only brought it up because of the tournament.
 
Swap said:
So, now that PPK is no longer an input for pushblock, you can input reversal punch supers with motion + PPK during blockstun and not get pushblock instead of super.
Could we make this a quality-of-life change, where motion + PP during blockstun is disregarded as a pushblock input?
Why change it regularly, why not just use the PPK option to get your reversal consistently? Changing this would mean you have to set your motion back to neutral in order to pushblock, making holding back + multiple pushblocks to keep the opponent away harder in a game where defeating pushblock is relatively easy. This would essentially revert the "go back to neutral to get reversal specials for pbgc" change as well, you would just have to revert to neutral a little earlier, although that doesn't sound as bad as it used to be.

Right now you can pretty much hold back to block, pushblock and then mash some reversal till it comes out
Before it was ........................ hold back to block, pushblock, return to neutral, and then input perfect reversal input
Your proposal........................ hold back to block, go to neutral to pushblock, pushblock, then mash some reversal till it comes out.

Your proposal would make it way easier to pushblock bait as well since they will no longer be holding back to pushblock. Usually you get a punish on dash since they inputted PP, but now you may just end up hitting them outright if they go to pushblock after you put them in some small amount of blockstun. They try to PB by setting back to neutral, then just get hit before they get to press PP. Either that or they do press the PP and still get a dash, in most cases you'll punish anyways. Overall, I feel like your proposal will make defense more difficult (outside of mashing super thats not pbgc'd, but you can already do that now with KPP)

edit:and this increases the inputs to activate absolute guard by one as well. Instead of switching guard from high to low or vice versa after a pushblock, you have to guess correctly on a block, return to neutral, pushblock, then change guard to the opposite of what you had. Again, making defense harder.
 
zeknife said:
Surely he did indeed mean motion + pp and not direction + pp

I dunno, seems to open up the door for missed pushblocks when going from crouching to stand block.
 
Truly! I'm not supporting it or anything I'm just saying it would have saved a bunch of time to reread a sentence before writing four paragraphs
 
Personally I'm barely noticing the chicken block change in the beta. And by barely I mean not at all. Maybe I'm just bad (which I am,) but it hasn't had any noticeable effect on any part of my gameplay
 
gllt said:
Really liking Beowulf, not sure what to do with his air chains from chair on launcher so much yet but I assume since he's incomplete that it's simply because he's missing a special or something. Or I'm dumb! The most I got off after cHP (chair on) is jLK jMP jLP jLK jMP and then my combo is over.

On the ground he has plenty of routes though after removing his chair, so he's definitely playable as he stands. The hop jMP link after LChair is a BIT tough but it's not too much of a bother.

Can't wait to see what else this guy can do.
In corner with chair just do val loops lol. They work somewhat. It's dumb, but leaves you with the chair at the end of it
 
I mean when the game detects 2 punches during blockstun, it checks to see if you did a super motion or not. So you've got an input for "not-pushblock" that takes priority over the input for pushblock. Yes, you can use the PPK trick to distinguish what you want, but:
  • It's a 3 button input instead of a 2 button input.
  • It's an additional thing to remember when you need to make a snap judgement.
I mentioned the trick because I want people to benefit from it, but the trick itself is an additional piece of complexity that may not be necessary, which is why I suggested the change. If the change goes into the beta and players find that it hurts the game feel (through missed pushblocks) more than it helps, then it can be reverted and players can just use the PPK trick.
 
That sounds like the worst shit ever. Every character in the game has a qcb+PP super and that would be the messiest shit imaginable trying to find a way to make that work outside of requiring half-circle inputs or making pushblock act really fucky.
 
Yeah I'm not liking the implications of PP+K allowing you to avoid pushblock.

It seems like this will depend on whether Mike dislikes the effect more than option selects, though.
 
I LOVE the idea of pp+k not pushblocking. One of the most frustrating things in sg is trying to super a frame disadvantage only to get a pushblock... Aka trying to punish with pp super and getting pushblock instead and pushing the opponent away while not supering or your super becoming blockable cause your pushblock pushed the opponent to far.
 
Is it bad that I don't read 99% of the things that anyone suggests that isn't related to an existing Beta change unless Mike addresses them first? Cause I thought for a second, skimming the new posts, "pp+k avoiding Pushblock? What's that all about". And then I thought "Oh, wait. Random fan suggestion? Never mind".
 
Yeah, that's pretty bad, since this IS related to an existing Beta change.

Skullgirls Beta Patch Notes - 11/21
- Fix some macro option selects: PP+K is no longer a valid pushblock input, and LP+LK+P / LP+LK+K are no longer valid throw tech inputs.
 
PP+K was an throw tech pushblock option select. Mike removed it but might have introduced super inputs without accidental pushblocks when trying to do as reversal.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Yeah, that's pretty bad, since this IS related to an existing Beta change.
Is it bad that I forget about beta changes that are more than one patch old if what they changed doesn't at all effect the way I play the game?
 
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