Boss Filia needs to respect the player's chosen difficulty

missingno · Dec 25, 2022

Tips for ♥♥♥♥♥'s story :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I keep getting stuck on the last boss, any tips?

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♥♥♥♥♥ BOSS NO SENSE :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

come on lab zero im a noob in this game and i have to play in easy and you put this NO SENSE BOSS? well i have to say good bye to ♥♥♥♥♥´s story ːskullheartː

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How do I beat ♥♥♥♥♥ story? :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

Final boss just air juggles me till I die.

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♥♥♥♥♥ vs. Filia story mode - The boss battle is extremely unbalanced! :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

In this fight Filia extremely unbalanced and should be changed. Filia as the boss: - has 300% more health. - has the highest ai level no matter which difficulty chosen. - she blocks most of the player's moves, including overhead attacks and low attacks. - she techs most grabs. - punishes for the...

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♥♥♥♥♥ vs. Filia story mode :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I am having MAJOR trouble with this segment of the game, and I'm on the lowest level! Does anyone have any tips for me when fighting this almost impossible boss?

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♥♥♥♥♥ story mode :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

i feel that the final boss flia is a little bit to strong, i undaerstand that IS the FINAL boss and haves a really easy weakness ( forever a clone whit the hard kick button (hk or C in pc) ) but his dmg and life is too much, his IA is perfect and reacts in a almos perfect timing at your atacks...

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Having trouble beating ♥♥♥♥♥'s story... the final boss (at least I think she's the final boss) :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

The final boss (the original) seems to have extremely high life. She literately seems to have at least 5 times HP that other characters have. Anyone else have trouble chipping away at her life bar?

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y is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ story mode soooo much harder then all the others :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

its like 3X longer and has a crazy op clone for no reason lol i beat litteraly all the other charactors storys in 1 try but the clone boss is insane in this 1 is it to gatekeep the 14 storymode clears achievement or something?

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♥♥♥♥♥'s Last Boss :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

Whoever thought that putting a handicap on the player should be fired.

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Is it ♥♥♥♥♥ 300%? :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I'm very sure that Lab zero made ♥♥♥♥♥'s last stage as 300%... I never thought I will lose in sleepwalk mode... Holy Venus.

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Why do all fighting games have this weird difficulty curve ? :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I'm still very new to Skullgirls but I played lots of fighting games in my life. I tried Story Mode with ♥♥♥♥♥ and after a single image of her sleeping (???) I was thrown against every character in laughably easy one round matches. I destroyed every single one of them in a matter of minutes ...

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Uh, difficulty levels broken on ♥♥♥♥♥ Story mode? :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

Example, easy difficulty. After about 1 minute, I have about 20% life left while Filia has about 50%.

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TROUBLE WITH ♥♥♥♥♥ :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

(Better be) final boss of the ♥♥♥♥♥ story, and it looks like a recolor to look like Kneesocks, it literally blocks every single move I throw no matter what. I her literally 5 hits in, total, then not a single one more. Tried so long but was forced off. Any help is appreciated, cause this s hits...

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fILIA IS TOO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ CHEESE AGAINST ♥♥♥♥♥! :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

Srry for the cap locks. Forgot i had them on. Seriously tho, filia is wayy too cheese when your going story mode ♥♥♥♥♥! how can I even beat her ass???? i've tried grabbing and stuff, but nope. She just doesn't lose health.

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1-100 real quick :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

So as i have just started playing this game i figured the story would be a good place to go after the tutorial... as ♥♥♥♥♥ was my favorite i decided to start with hers... it goes OK up untill the Fillia fight... The fights up untill this were kinda easy but a few here and there caused a little...

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♥♥♥♥♥'s Boss is TOO HARD! :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I can't even get her below half...this is not fun at all. Thanks Lab Zero! >_<

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Filia impossible to beat in ♥♥♥♥♥'s story mode(?) :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I have completed all the stories (exept DLC characters) and Filia is the only one left. So at the end Filia is impossible to beat and I've tried several times already. The only way I got her health to half was that I jumped, and did c.MK, jump and c.MK but she still kills me. Any better advice...

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How to beat Filia with ♥♥♥♥♥? :: Skullgirls 2nd Encore General Discussions

I'm on the Filia stage of ♥♥♥♥♥'s story, and Filia is SUCH A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥. She blocks all your attacks like a damn ♥♥♥♥♥ who can't handle taking a hit, so you can't damage her for ♥♥♥♥. Plus I have no idea how to do the super attacks, especially with a wired XBOX 360 controller. I need some...

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I've seen this too many damn times. New/casual player picks up the game for the first time. Tries to go through the story modes. Gets hopelessly stuck on Nightmare Filia. Tries turning the difficulty all the way down to Sleepwalk and still can't beat it (because it's not actually on Sleepwalk), and they're frustrated and confused.

There's no good reason for this boss to be ignoring the player's chosen difficulty. It's even worse that it's never communicated to the player that this is happening. All they know is they picked Sleepwalk and they're still stuck and they don't know why it's such a difficulty spike. Put yourself in the shoes of a new player, how does that feel?

She can have bonus health. She can have infinite meter. She can still be an appropriate boss based on the player's chosen difficulty. But if the player picked Sleepwalk, they should not be secretly pranked with Nightmare AI. This is straight up trolling the player.

Even if you and I know how to cheese it, these players don't, and they're having a miserable experience. They don't even understand why it's so miserable, they think they're playing Sleepwalk. It's mean, it's confusing, it's unfair, and it needs to change.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 25, 2022

Nah let them suffer

EDIT: I just remembered that I'm a moderator here and I should set a good example for the kids and not make too flippant of a reply.

Are there any good reasons that we need to dumb down Fukua's story mode for beginners who aren't willing to put in the effort to learn how to beat Nightmare Filia?

1) Story

Fukua's story is a joke story and has no consequence to the understanding of the overall lore. A player not being able to beat it and not seeing her ending will not affect their enjoyment of the lore at all

2) Completion

If someone wants to 100% the achievement on Steam, there are a lot of harder challenges you need to achieve in order to do it, like beating all the Challenges and Trials

So, in conclusion, I don't think there is any reason to dumb down Fukua's story in order to please beginners. If they have an issue with beating her, it's 2022 and everyone has internet access that they can look up a method on how to do it, and 99% of people who bother to do that can learn how to beat her easily.

missingno · Dec 25, 2022

Nightmare difficulty can still be Nightmare difficulty. But why should Sleepwalk be like this? Why should beginners who just want to play casually be pranked with Nightmare AI they didn't sign up for? That the game never even told them about? For what reason?

Look at how many threads I was able to dig up of people who are just not having a good time. This is a real problem for a lot of players! It's giving them a bad first impression of the game. Hell, imagine if someone starts with Fukua first before playing any other stories, they're gonna be really confused. I wonder how many people may have just put the game down and never came back.

It's not even a good challenge since it comes down to cheesing it. It's not fun or interesting to have in the game in this state. What I'd actually like to see is once lower difficulties are made fair, then Nightmare can be reworked so you can't just do thirty command grabs and win.

Cal · Dec 25, 2022

missingno said:
Nightmare difficulty can still be Nightmare difficulty. But why should Sleepwalk be like this? Why should beginners who just want to play casually be pranked with Nightmare AI they didn't sign up for? That the game never even told them about? For what reason?

Look at how many threads I was able to dig up of people who are just not having a good time. This is a real problem for a lot of players! It's giving them a bad first impression of the game. Hell, imagine if someone starts with Fukua first before playing any other stories, they're gonna be really confused. I wonder how many people may have just put the game down and never came back.

It's not even a good challenge since it comes down to cheesing it. It's not fun or interesting to have in the game in this state. What I'd actually like to see is once lower difficulties are made fair, then Nightmare can be reworked so you can't just do thirty command grabs and win.

Man, have i been waiting for this //

Where is my Violin...So i can play the saddest E major , consulting the new players who can't mustard enough courage to brace & overcome a AI opponent.

I came to the Skullgirls "party" waaaaaaaay late, like everyone is already passed out on the floor & the DJ left yesterday --- late to the party.

And you know what i found? Many well established Pro players or named player groups (ex.CCND , WW4E) that decided to tear me apart & give me the biggest mix...schmix, Burst Bait, Cross under 50/50 IVE EVER seen in a fighting game in my life. Skip the AI my friend.

Were not talking any average players, Oh no...

Penpen ( Scarred me for life with his Ms.Fortune <3) Tyrone O Canada, Cloud , Dekillsage, Fullbleed, Nuuance , Swergin, Fuzzy Snugs, GG8 - ???. May i go on?...

The real battle is within these Highly advanced players that are tearing new players to shreds & you claim that the STORY MODE AI on Nightmare mode is a issue? I agree with Chrono_Tata // Let them suffer.

If they aren't competent enough to best a AI ( Which btw "Nightmare" Mode isnt anything to MK's or DOA's Highest diffitculty modes.)

Then don't even anticipate them fighting online in ranked played during Peak hours....

You must Adapt & Fight //

Absorb any resource you can, conduct research, Add people to discuss tactics, solutions are very well present.

Nuuance · Dec 25, 2022

missingno said:
Nightmare difficulty can still be Nightmare difficulty. But why should Sleepwalk be like this? Why should beginners who just want to play casually be pranked with Nightmare AI they didn't sign up for? That the game never even told them about? For what reason?

Look at how many threads I was able to dig up of people who are just not having a good time. This is a real problem for a lot of players! It's giving them a bad first impression of the game. Hell, imagine if someone starts with Fukua first before playing any other stories, they're gonna be really confused. I wonder how many people may have just put the game down and never came back.

It's not even a good challenge since it comes down to cheesing it. It's not fun or interesting to have in the game in this state. What I'd actually like to see is once lower difficulties are made fair, then Nightmare can be reworked so you can't just do thirty command grabs and win.

cant help but agree. A joke is a joke & I personally think it's kinda funny, but at the expense of confused players I dont really see it. Maybe change the text to "Sleepwalk *wink wink*" so maybe people 'get it?' Kinda ruins user experience. I mean people can always just start over and pick normal difficulty I suppose which wouldnt be much harder im guessing, but that's assuming people are flying through normal matches. Might be a bit easier underestimating how tough it is for uber nooblet players despite nightmare difficulty ironically being a joke to us

missingno · Dec 26, 2022

Cal said:
If they aren't competent enough to best a AI ( Which btw "Nightmare" Mode isnt anything to MK's or DOA's Highest diffitculty modes.)

Then don't even anticipate them fighting online in ranked played during Peak hours....

Going online to play against humans is very, very, very different from playing single-player content on a difficulty that is labeled Sleepwalk. People know what they are signing up for when they go online. People playing Sleepwalk do not know what they are signing up for, they think that they are playing Sleepwalk. Why are they not actually playing Sleepwalk when they clicked on Sleepwalk? For what reason?

Some people just want to play Story Mode casually. Not everyone who buys fighting games cares about getting seriously competitive at them, in fact we're a tiny minority compared to people who unironically buy fighting games for the story. And they should be able to have fun with the game in that way. Once upon a time SG was lauded for being ahead of its contemporaries as a game that was more accessible to casual players, but this prank really contradicts that.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 26, 2022

missingno said:
Nightmare difficulty can still be Nightmare difficulty. But why should Sleepwalk be like this? Why should beginners who just want to play casually be pranked with Nightmare AI they didn't sign up for? That the game never even told them about? For what reason?

Difficulties are also locked for Marie 300% and Challenge modes. It's supposed to be a challenge. It's a meme story that has no bearing on the overall story, and most players who have played through 15 fights with no cutscene before they got to boss Filia should probably have figured that out.

missingno said:
Look at how many threads I was able to dig up of people who are just not having a good time. This is a real problem for a lot of players! It's giving them a bad first impression of the game. Hell, imagine if someone starts with Fukua first before playing any other stories, they're gonna be really confused. I wonder how many people may have just put the game down and never came back.

I can also dig up even more threads with people complaining about motion inputs. Hell, there are probably even more threads about people complaining that they can't figure out how to beat Marie even at lower difficulties. Should we dumb those down as well?

If I would advocate anything, it should be that Fukua story should be locked until a certain numbers of stories have been completed.

If someone is so uninterested in Skullgirls that they put down the game and never came back just because they couldn't beat Fukua story and never thought to just look up how she can be beaten, even if Fukua's story is made easier, they will probably have put down the game because they couldn't beat the tutorials, or they couldn't beat some of the challenges, or trials, or they went on Quick Match and was annihilated by SonicFox.

On the other hand, I've seen plenty of people come on the forum or Discord to ask about Fukua's final boss, get told how they could beat her, go on to do it and feel satisfied and go on to enjoy the rest of the game. Most people who picked up the game after Fukua was released went through the same trial by fire. People who are attracted to fighting games are attracted by challenges, and we feel satisfied when we are made to overcome them.

Sure, we have plenty of people who pick up the game just because they like the art or they have played SGM and have no idea what fighting games are like, I simply don't think dumbing down the game's difficulty to cater to the lowest common denominator is a good idea. Maybe it would get some people to stay for an extra hour or two, but in the end these people are going to leave. The ones who stay are the ones who can rise to the challenge.

missingno · Dec 26, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
Difficulties are also locked for Marie 300% and Challenge modes. It's supposed to be a challenge. It's a meme story that has no bearing on the overall story, and most players who have played through 15 fights with no cutscene before they got to boss Filia should probably have figured that out.

Marie 300% and Challenge are clearly communicated to the player as special bonus challenges. You cannot even select Sleepwalk here to begin with. Fukua is part of story mode (even if it is a meme story, new players don't know injokes), and it has a Sleepwalk setting. When players select that as their chosen difficulty, they expect to play the thing they selected. The prank is not being communicated to the player.

In most of the threads I've linked, it's not just that players are stuck and frustrated, it's that they are confused. At least people playing Marie 300% know that this is a very special bonus boss. People playing Story Mode don't know why it's suddenly like this.

Chrono_Tata said:
Sure, we have plenty of people who pick up the game just because they like the art or they have played SGM and have no idea what fighting games are like, I simply don't think dumbing down the game's difficulty to cater to the lowest common denominator is a good idea. Maybe it would get some people to stay for an extra hour or two, but in the end these people are going to leave. The ones who stay are the ones who can rise to the challenge.

Is Sleepwalk existing in the first place "dumbing down the game's difficulty"? I'm not asking to remove Nightmare from the game. Hell, I'm all in favor of removing the cheese to make Nightmare harder. But Nightmare should be Nightmare and Sleepwalk should be Sleepwalk.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 26, 2022

missingno said:
Marie 300% and Challenge are clearly communicated to the player as special bonus challenges. You cannot even select Sleepwalk here to begin with. Fukua is part of story mode (even if it is a meme story, new players don't know injokes), and it has a Sleepwalk setting. When players select that as their chosen difficulty, they expect to play the thing they selected. The prank is not being communicated to the player.

In most of the threads I've linked, it's not just that players are stuck and frustrated, it's that they are confused. At least people playing Marie 300% know that this is a very special bonus boss. People playing Story Mode don't know why it's suddenly like this.

Is Sleepwalk existing in the first place "dumbing down the game's difficulty"? I'm not asking to remove Nightmare from the game. Hell, I'm all in favor of removing the cheese to make Nightmare harder. But Nightmare should be Nightmare and Sleepwalk should be Sleepwalk.

The point is Nightmare Filia is the boss. Every other character story has Marie as the boss (or midboss) and she is significantly different and more difficult than the rest of the fights, and a lot of players understandably have problems beating her. Nightmare Filia is the same - she's supposed to present a much more difficult challenge to the player, not another Sleepwalk AI they can just mash against. I feel like the spooky stage and the alternate colour palette does communicate that, but admittedly it might not be immediately obvious to everyone.

As you say yourself, the problem is that the challenge is not communicated well enough to the player. If that is the problem, shouldn't the solution be to communicate to the player that it's a challenge mode, rather than nerfing the game's difficulty? My proposal is to gate it as unlockable story, but there are probably other ways it could be done.

missingno · Dec 26, 2022

Not only is Marie not locked at Nightmare in Story Mode, she's actually nerfed. Story Marie is much easier than Arcade Marie. In fact she's still nerfed even when you do pick Nightmare.

I'm not really sure what an appropriate way to communicate to the player that the difficulty they've chosen is going to be ignored, and I'm not sure that's really a good answer - even if you tell them, it's still kind of a dick move? It works in challenge modes that never had selectable difficulties in the first place, but it just doesn't make sense for Story Mode where Sleepwalk is supposed to exist. Story Mode should be accessible, I do not think it has a place here.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 26, 2022

missingno said:
Not only is Marie not locked at Nightmare in Story Mode, she's actually nerfed. Story Marie is much easier than Arcade Marie. In fact she's still nerfed even when you do pick Nightmare.

Yeah, I'm aware that Marie's difficulty in Story Mode is set as 1 level less difficult than the selected difficulty, but I'm referring to the fact that Marie can't be beaten by "normal" methods that the player would have got used to. She can't be thrown, sent airborne, knocked down, etc., which is what makes her difficult. People need to figure out how to beat her once they get to her with a new character. Since Nightmare Filia is just a regular character unlike Marie, she's made harder to present the boss-like challenge.

missingno said:
I'm not really sure what an appropriate way to communicate to the player that the difficulty they've chosen is going to be ignored, and I'm not sure that's really a good answer - even if you tell them, it's still kind of a dick move? It works in challenge modes that never had selectable difficulties in the first place, but it just doesn't make sense for Story Mode where Sleepwalk is supposed to exist. Story Mode should be accessible, I do not think it has a place here.

Again, Fukua's "story" doesn't have a story. It was created as a challenge and it was always meant to be a challenge. Nobody is getting locked out of any SG lore by not being able to beat her story - which is, as I mentioned before, completely beatable if someone bothers to find out how to. Is it hard? Of course it's meant to be, but it's far from impossible, and online guides are absolutely accessible to 100% of SG players if they really can't figure it out.

missingno · Dec 26, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
Yeah, I'm aware that Marie's difficulty in Story Mode is set as 1 level less difficult than the selected difficulty, but I'm referring to the fact that Marie can't be beaten by "normal" methods that the player would have got used to. She can't be thrown, sent airborne, knocked down, etc., which is what makes her difficult. People need to figure out how to beat her once they get to her with a new character. Since Nightmare Filia is just a regular character unlike Marie, she's made harder to present the boss-like challenge.

As I said before, she can still be a boss with extra health and infinite meter, while being an appropriate boss for the chosen difficulty level. Marie is not a good comparison here, because Marie is still kept appropriate to the difficulty level. Why does one boss respect difficulty settings while another does not?

Chrono_Tata said:
Again, Fukua's "story" doesn't have a story. It was created as a challenge and it was always meant to be a challenge. Nobody is getting locked out of any SG lore by not being able to beat her story - which is, as I mentioned before, completely beatable if someone bothers to find out how to. Is it hard? Of course it's meant to be, but it's far from impossible, and online guides are absolutely accessible to 100% of SG players if they really can't figure it out.

You and I know she's one big inside joke, but the thing about inside jokes is that new players do not know the joke. They're just trying to play Story Mode.

I really don't think "google how to cheese it" is a suitable answer here either.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 27, 2022

missingno said:
As I said before, she can still be a boss with extra health and infinite meter, while being an appropriate boss for the chosen difficulty level. Marie is not a good comparison here, because Marie is still kept appropriate to the difficulty level. Why does one boss respect difficulty settings while another does not?

The point is that other character stories are scaled to a more manageable levels because they are lore-important story modes. They are made more accessible because it's assumed that less skilled players would want to learn the story so it's designed to be beatable by (almost) everyone. Fukua's "story" doesn't have anything to do with the lore. It's purely meant to be a challenge and the difficulty is set appropriately to present a challenge.

missingno said:
You and I know she's one big inside joke, but the thing about inside jokes is that new players do not know the joke. They're just trying to play Story Mode.

Yes, that's why I said that the challenge could be better communicated as being a challenge. I find it a more appropriate response than knee-jerk "let's dumb down the gameplay" because some people find it too hard.

missingno said:
I really don't think "google how to cheese it" is a suitable answer here either.

People can and have figured out how to beat Nightmare Filia, but there are help online or through other channels for people who need it. Games have been hard since forever, and there has always been guides for people who need the extra help. It's hardly a new concept.

If this were a visual novel game like Guilty Gear (half-joke) then, yeah, I guess people might need their hands held so they can experience the story, but it's not. It's a fighting game. People should expect a challenge, especially in non-story contents.

missingno · Dec 27, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
I find it a more appropriate response than knee-jerk "let's dumb down the gameplay" because some people find it too hard.

Do you think that Sleepwalk existing in the first place is "dumbing down the gameplay"? I'm not asking for Nightmare to be removed, nothing is getting taken out.

Stuff · Dec 27, 2022

For me the problem with nightmare Filia is that it's just an AI that blocks a lot so you have throw her more but the casual audience does not want to do that, they just want to hit things because that's what has worked for them for what I'm pretty sure is the entirety of this game since hey the ai is generally very bad at playing the game. So I don't really blame a casual player for learning absolutely nothing because the computers also taught absolutely nothing in the first place. And I think that's where most casual players start having problems, they don't know what to do at that point but also don't want to be "cheap" either. They want to feel like they learned something and just throwing Filia all day (because I doubt they know any combos) is just not interesting.

So like, the let them figure it out approach kinda sucks since you aren't learning anything in the first place there, a human opponent will do much worse but there's a good chance this is all these people play.

I think it would be fine if Filia dropped in difficulty for every 2 or so "play again"s or whatever number feels suitable because beating the AI doesn't really make you ready to play against anybody in the first place, it just teaches you that the AI does one specific thing. So who's really learning?

The other thing is, usually these "god" bosses are usually reserved for people who "unlock" them by some kind of method, with Fukua you just play a joke story mode and it's ha ha funny until you get smoked by nightmare Filia and that's the only behaivior meanwhile Robo's story mode is also a joke and it does not do that so idk.

Like, I'm a fan of "They're gonna learn TODAY" but there's a high chance that audience isn't learning much anyway... and anyone who does learn isn't all that interested in the story mode anyway so idk. I think the game should work with even the weakest player since anyone willing to learn will do it and win while other people just want an experience and that's fine too.

The casual fan base is what funds this game, so

If it was like the KI AI that like sees your habits or whatever, I'd be less lenient since you DO learn something there but you don't in SGs story mode so who cares?

Chrono_Tata · Dec 28, 2022

missingno said:
Do you think that Sleepwalk existing in the first place is "dumbing down the gameplay"? I'm not asking for Nightmare to be removed, nothing is getting taken out.

Is keeping difficulties that existed since the game was released dumbing down the gameplay? Of course not. Is removing/reducing difficulties that existed previously dumbing down the gameplay? Yes, it is.

Stuff said:
For me the problem with nightmare Filia is that it's just an AI that blocks a lot so you have throw her more but the casual audience does not want to do that, they just want to hit things because that's what has worked for them for what I'm pretty sure is the entirety of this game since hey the ai is generally very bad at playing the game. So I don't really blame a casual player for learning absolutely nothing because the computers also taught absolutely nothing in the first place. And I think that's where most casual players start having problems, they don't know what to do at that point but also don't want to be "cheap" either. They want to feel like they learned something and just throwing Filia all day (because I doubt they know any combos) is just not interesting.

So like, the let them figure it out approach kinda sucks since you aren't learning anything in the first place there, a human opponent will do much worse but there's a good chance this is all these people play.

That's not just a problem with Nightmare Filia though, it's just the problem with fighting game AIs in general. Yeah, beating Nightmare Filia won't teach you anything useful about actually playing Skullgirls, but that's the same as learning how to beat boss Marie or all the regular AIs at any difficulty, or in any other games. Does beating the story on Doom make you a better multiplayer FPS player? Above teaching you the very basic, every multiplayer game that has a singleplayer aspect would require you develop very specific strategies for beating singleplayer challenges that aren't useful in competitive multiplayer settings.

Stuff said:
The other thing is, usually these "god" bosses are usually reserved for people who "unlock" them by some kind of method, with Fukua you just play a joke story mode and it's ha ha funny until you get smoked by nightmare Filia and that's the only behaivior meanwhile Robo's story mode is also a joke and it does not do that so idk.

Robo's story is still a full fledged joke story that can be enjoyed by players even if they don't know the context of her original creation. Fukua's story starts with an animation of Filia sleeping and ends with an in-joke that only people who were around during the IGG would understand. I think it's the very definition of an optional challenge.

Stuff said:
The casual fan base is what funds this game, so

I do agree with this statement but I feel like this is an oversimplification of "casual" gaming. Being a casual gamer doesn't mean that people want to just hit buttons and get free wins, casual gamers enjoy challenges and learning games as much as anyone else, they just don't have the time, energy or mental propensity to play a game competitively.

SGM was made for a much more casual audience than this game, but the average SGM player has probably memorised way more statistics of different variants and strategies for different game modes than I have for 2E. I'm a casual Skullgirls player - I've never placed anywhere close to a top 32, but I have enjoyed playing through the singleplayer challenges in the game, especially difficult ones.

----

I feel like this discussion is going around in a circle so I'll just put my last thoughts in on it:

In the end, it's not like I'd lose any sleep if they make Nightmare Filia easier, but it's just the general idea that dumbing down challenges (optional ones, no less) will please "casual" gamers and get them to stay with Skullgirls that I disagree with.

Of course people will get frustrated if they can't figure out a challenge and go online to look for help and make posts about it, but I think you'd just be infantilising gamers by thinking that the very moment they are faced with a difficult challenge, they immediately drop the game and go play something else. Sure, some would, but do you really think they are the type of people that would have stuck with this game in the first place? They simply would beat Fukua's story, go on to the next challenge, find one that is too difficult and drop the game then. Would making Nightmare Filia easier actually improve player retention in Skullgirls in any significant way? I really don't believe it will at all.

missingno · Dec 28, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
Is removing/reducing difficulties that existed previously dumbing down the gameplay?

I am not asking to remove anything. Nightmare will still exist.

Chrono_Tata said:
Robo's story is still a full fledged joke story that can be enjoyed by players even if they don't know the context of her original creation. Fukua's story starts with an animation of Filia sleeping and ends with an in-joke that only people who were around during the IGG would understand. I think it's the very definition of an optional challenge.

As I said, the fact that new players do not know the injoke is exactly why "it's okay because it's an injoke" isn't a good justification. Joke or not, it's still part of Story Mode, and new players expect that when they select Sleepwalk in Story Mode, they get Sleepwalk in Story Mode. They do not know why this behaves so differently from all other Story Modes. And frankly, as long as it is part of Story Mode, there isn't a good reason for it to do this.

Chrono_Tata said:
Of course people will get frustrated if they can't figure out a challenge and go online to look for help and make posts about it, but I think you'd just be infantilising gamers by thinking that the very moment they are faced with a difficult challenge, they immediately drop the game and go play something else. Sure, some would, but do you really think they are the type of people that would have stuck with this game in the first place? They simply would beat Fukua's story, go on to the next challenge, find one that is too difficult and drop the game then. Would making Nightmare Filia easier actually improve player retention in Skullgirls in any significant way? I really don't believe it will at all.

It would make the game significantly more enjoyable for everyone who has gotten stuck here. All these threads I've linked in the OP are people who are frustrated and unhappy. Even if they just want to play the story casually and then put it down, that's okay. Better that they are able to finish it and say they enjoyed their time with it than that they don't. We don't need to gatekeep casual players out like this.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 28, 2022

missingno said:
I am not asking to remove anything. Nightmare will still exist.

As I said, the fact that new players do not know the injoke is exactly why "it's okay because it's an injoke" isn't a good justification. Joke or not, it's still part of Story Mode, and new players expect that when they select Sleepwalk in Story Mode, they get Sleepwalk in Story Mode. They do not know why this behaves so differently from all other Story Modes. And frankly, as long as it is part of Story Mode, there isn't a good reason for it to do this.

Already addressed these multiple times in previous comments so please read them again and understand what I was saying.

missingno said:
It would make the game significantly more enjoyable for everyone who has gotten stuck here. All these threads I've linked in the OP are people who are frustrated and unhappy.

Going through the first few threads and the replies are:

This was my first attempt to be fair, but I think the only thing I did wrong was

When I finally had an opening I didn't use it right, as I didn't know how to approach this.

Get gud, that entire time I was holding back but she had me in stun hell lol, I could've possibly done a tech.

Okay I’ll try that thank you

Thank you so much I’ll ensure I try this later

Doesn't seem like people who get mad and stop playing the game, just people who needed help, looked and got it.

I'm sure there are people who did drop the game after they can't beat Filia, in the same way that there are probably people who can't figure out how to do supers or get trashed online and quit the game, but are these actually the majority of people?

missingno said:
Even if they just want to play the story casually and then put it down, that's okay. Better that they are able to finish it and say they enjoyed their time with it than that they don't. We don't need to gatekeep casual players out like this.

Again with the infantlisation of casual players. Do you really think casual gamers can't figure out how to look for solutions online in 2022?

Stuff · Dec 28, 2022

I mean... we live in a society so I find it very believable some players are just that casual.

I'm also not saying that people drop the game because a poorly made AI beats them, I'm just saying why the hell does it NEED to be Nightmare only in the first place? Marie is very obviously a boss character and Filia is not, Marie gets a whole ass intro and Filia just shows up from the haha funny story. Like, telling me it's because it's been there and it's tradition is a wack argument. There's plenty of stuff that changes over time regardless of it being a tradition because you learn it sucks. BTW is there anything that says Fukua's story mode is a challenge mode because I genuinely don't know and nothing in the game says that it is so if the source is outside of the game then that sucks too.

And it's because the AI teaches you nothing that I'm for making it easier for people because at that point what does it matter when you just use cheese to win, is that satisfying? Is that fun? Because I don't think so. At least in an FPS you don't always need to get into cheese, there's some level of choreography and you learn it and it's fun but I also don't recall any shooter forcing a difficulty even if you picked sleepwalk so idk how that compares to this game. If the game has an actual learning curve (bloodborne and other souls games) then it's fine because there's literal progression and you learn how to do things and you don't resort to just one move since you have to have the capacity to learn how to use everything. Souls games have cheese I'm aware but at the game's core is learning the choreography and reacting to it. All Filia asks is "Do you know how to throw? Do you know how to combo from throw?" and that's as far as you learn anything and imo that's not fun when the extent of your skill has probably been face rolling and praying since nothing previously taught you jack shit.

Having to resort to online help is the wack part imo it just shows how lame your game is at that portion. (FF10 is a neat game but fuck going to the stupid puzzle temples)

Weather it changes or not it doesn't affect me, I already beat these modes but I think it's okay to have some level of consideration for literal beginners.

I can only agree to disagree at this point, which I'm also fine with but I think there's genuine points as to why it shouldn't force one AI that ignores the selected difficulty.

missingno · Dec 28, 2022

Stuff said:
BTW is there anything that says Fukua's story mode is a challenge mode because I genuinely don't know and nothing in the game says that it is so if the source is outside of the game then that sucks too.

Nope! As I've said, new players do not know injokes.

Stuff said:
Having to resort to online help is the wack part imo it just shows how lame your game is at that portion. (FF10 is a neat game but fuck going to the stupid puzzle temples)

Absolutely. A casual Story Mode playthrough shouldn't have to rely on googling solutions. That's something that modern game design really tries to avoid, at least outside of more high-level/competitive contexts where players are trying to go above and beyond (read: not Story Mode). If the player can't naturally figure things out in-game, that's often a failure on the part of the game designer. We've come a long way from the era of printed strategy guides and GameFAQs.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 29, 2022

Stuff said:
I mean... we live in a society so I find it very believable some players are just that casual.

Yeah definitely. But like I said, I don't think it's as big of a issue as this thread seems to suggest. I could also datamine Reddit and come up with people complaining about all sorts of things, but does it mean that we need to keep removing difficulties until everyone is happy? This basis of this whole thing is that apparently the only solution is nerfing the boss, which I disagree with.

Stuff said:
I'm also not saying that people drop the game because a poorly made AI beats them, I'm just saying why the hell does it NEED to be Nightmare only in the first place? Marie is very obviously a boss character and Filia is not, Marie gets a whole ass intro and Filia just shows up from the haha funny story. Like, telling me it's because it's been there and it's tradition is a wack argument. There's plenty of stuff that changes over time regardless of it being a tradition because you learn it sucks. BTW is there anything that says Fukua's story mode is a challenge mode because I genuinely don't know and nothing in the game says that it is so if the source is outside of the game then that sucks too.

Exactly, so the solution is to make it clear that it is a challenge quest. Like I have said several times in this thread.

StarryDarkness · Dec 29, 2022

As somebody who also struggled with Fukua's story mode before, I say one of the best ways to take care of Filia is a good amount of practice, along with the help of the official Skullgirls wiki.
I know her story is mainly a joke, but I say it's also perfect for people who want to take on a challenge.

Stuff · Dec 29, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
Yeah definitely. But like I said, I don't think it's as big of a issue as this thread seems to suggest. I could also datamine Reddit and come up with people complaining about all sorts of things, but does it mean that we need to keep removing difficulties until everyone is happy? This basis of this whole thing is that apparently the only solution is nerfing the boss, which I disagree with.

Exactly, so the solution is to make it clear that it is a challenge quest. Like I have said several times in this thread.

Trust me when I say, I'm not going to read everything, but yeah I agree, it should just say so, that'd be problem solved to me. If you know what you're signing up for then there's no prob.

missingno · Dec 29, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
removing difficulties

You keep coming back to this, and I keep saying that I am not asking to remove anything. Nightmare will still exist. I am asking to add difficulties, not remove them. We're going in circles.

Even if you did label it, I just don't think it makes sense here. It's not one standalone challenge fight, it's a sudden roadblock at the end of a Story Mode that, up until this point, did respect the player's chosen difficulty. Story Mode lets you pick Sleepwalk, and you do get to play Sleepwalk for every other fight leading up to this sudden prank. I don't see the design logic behind this inconsistency, and I don't think a label is all it takes to make it good now. It should work the same way the rest of the story works.

If you want to play it on Nightmare, that will always be an option. The challenge* will be there for those that want it. But I don't think it makes sense to have selectable difficulties be a part of Story Mode until they suddenly aren't. It needs to be made consistent.

*Also, honestly, is command grabbing her 30 times even an interesting or engaging enough 'challenge' to be worth defending in this form? Like, is this that important to keep it this way?

Chrono_Tata · Dec 29, 2022

missingno said:
You keep coming back to this, and I keep saying that I am not asking to remove anything. Nightmare will still exist. I am asking to add difficulties, not remove them. We're going in circles.

Maybe my wording was vague so let me clarify: by removing difficulties, I mean making something that was more difficult less difficult, rather than changing the levels of difficulties available. Because the Filia fight was designed to be as difficult as possible, making it easier for some difficulties levels would be reducing the difficulty.

missingno said:
Even if you did label it, I just don't think it makes sense here. It's not one standalone challenge fight, it's a sudden roadblock at the end of a Story Mode that, up until this point, did respect the player's chosen difficulty. Story Mode lets you pick Sleepwalk, and you do get to play Sleepwalk for every other fight leading up to this sudden prank. I don't see the design logic behind this inconsistency, and I don't think a label is all it takes to make it good now. It should work the same way the rest of the story works.

I do see your logic. I don't think the Fukua story mode is the most well-designed story or challenge, and it could have been designed and/or communicated better. My argument is that it was meant to be a difficult challenge, and it's neither gatekeeping story fans from learning the Skullgirls story because there is literally no lore in it, nor is it realistically gatekeeping completionists from 100%-ing the game because there are much harder challenges they would have to do anyway. It's essentially a one-time, optional challenge.

Personally, I think it is something that has always been there and many generations of new Skullgirls players have experienced and rose above it. Of course people find it frustrating when they can't beat it but I think once you get past the fight, at least most of the people I've talked to about it look back on it and appreciate the challenge or humour of the story. I really don't think it needs to be changed with the exception of just making it clear to people what they should be expecting. Clearly you disagree, so I think we'd just agree on that.

CaioLugon · Dec 29, 2022

Chrono_Tata said:
My argument is that it was meant to be a difficult challenge

A difficult challenge labelled "sleepwalk" that's tacked on at the end of a series of incredibly easy fights without any warning or explanation. That just sounds pretty objectively bad if you ask me.

Chrono_Tata · Dec 29, 2022

CaioLugon said:
A difficult challenge labelled "sleepwalk" that's tacked on at the end of a series of incredibly easy fights without any warning or explanation. That just sounds pretty objectively bad if you ask me.

Okay cool ignore literally my previous post.

Boss Filia needs to respect the player's chosen difficulty

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