Can we as a community teach fundamentals?

[Age]

Fighting game fundamentals are this mysterious phenomenon that allow players with them to seemingly bypass the learning process for new games. Why can Chris G and Justin Wong enter in tournaments for games that they don't play and expect to beat an intermediate level player who specializes in that game 90% of the time?

There are endless tutorials around for specific things in each game, for terminology, *for combos*, and every now and again you find a gem that sheds some light on one aspect of fundamentals. Like this or this. What I would like to see is a group effort to really define fundamentals and further create a video that will actually teach people how to learn 'fundamentals'.

I don't know if anyone in our community could claim to actually have great fundamentals, but I'm sure there are people who know about individual parts of it. If you think you could a.) improve someone's ability or b.) teach someone how to improve themself in one of these areas;

-Execution
-Movement
-Pressure
-Conditioning the opponent
-Commitment
-Footsies
-Resource management

or if there is some aspect of footsies that I don't even know about, post it up. Once we have some ideas on the key points to make then we can refine it into tutorial/video form.

 

[iLoli]

I think it's a good idea after all of those videos is to dedicate a video to honest to goodness "risk and reward".

It's why players sometime ask "why would he do that" and it's why sometimes players DO do those things.

You also might need to put "movement" and "commitment" into the same video.

 

[fenster]

Would this theoretically be specific to SG and how it applies? If so, 2 aspects additionally that maybe should be covered are "How Assists change Neutral and how to deal with them" and "Resets and Reversal Baiting" which would be with Conditioning the opponent but applies in different ways. Both of these are pretty critical to SG play. Maybe later I'll see if I can talk about anything here.

 

[Sydoh]

I just want to add that this is another good video for learning another part of fundamentals, which is controlling space, which also has to do with footsies and movement

 

[Dime]

@Age
You of course know how huge this as a subject, could be. Youve in the past made slight fun of my wanting to break these kinds of things down into seeable subject matter.

My opinion is that few people actually want to learn these things in text format, and even fewer want to attempt to explain such things. And there's also the bottomless chasm which is simply agreeing what are fundamentals in the first place.

Some people think fundamentals are game specific, some people think fundamentals are character specific, some people think that fundamentals dont change much at all from game to game, even when comparing airdashers to non airdashers.

I personally think all of those things apply and that fundamentals are as big or as small as anyone wants to make them out to be. If it were me i think i could write out 100 different things i would consider to be fundamental in nature to skullgirls.

However.... No one would read it and no one would care and even if some poor sap did read it, it probably wouldnt do them that much good just knowing my perspective. So I'll leave with what i think are the top 3 fundamentals that are key in all fighting games:

1. Controller/stick and button manipulation aka execution.
2. Pattern recognition/high iq aka reading and adapting to the opponent.
3. Reflexes aka reaction time.

And a 4th one that isnt quite as important at a purely fundamental level, but is still extremely important in high level play, and ties into number 1 and 2:


Ability to switch ones own patterns up on the fly without making huge tactical or spacial mistakes (tactical mistake would be trying to sweep an opponent that has just jumped into the air, spacial mistake would be wiffing a dp, as examples) the more you mix your stuff up the more chances you have of tricking yourself...

Some guys to look at for number 4 are mike z and maybe skyking j old videos.

1. Would be sako
3. Would be justin wong
2. Would be alex valle

As examples of players that personify the kinds of play that thinking about.

Anyways, tldr


We need to come up with a list of probably 5- 10 fundamentals to write about for oh say, a week, and then throw up another 10 fundamentals the next week. Anyone can participate and talk about as many or as few of that weeks fundamentals as they want.

So no need for any one person to bite off more than they can chew as far as long ass articles are concerned. And no need for anyone to get butthurt that a fundamental they think is hyper important didnt get included since it can just be included sometime in the following weeks.

 

[agent13]

I hate to be a debbie downer but you're going to have rough as hell time even trying to do any of these. For execution how the hell are you going to show people? Like are you going to show videos of you with a joy stick or controller doing qcf motions????

and you can't really show someone how to "condition the opponent" because that works in so many ways, i mean if you're going to talk about "the rule of three" then go ahead but you can't do a guide on how to mix up that's just...ugh.

Good luck tho, i really mean it.

 

[obregon]

Learn fundamentals the old fashioned way: Be 12 and play about 3000 hours of three different fighting games

 

[Squire Grooktook]

IMO fundamentals are not something that can really be "taught". Because "fundamentals" basically means "fundamental skills" aka the REALLY basic stuff in the human brain like reflexes, execution, multitasking, etc. You can't magically have good reflexes by reading a guide or discussion online, nor can you get them by giving up and never trying in the first place, you have to practice and train your brain over time. You need to put in effort and time.

There are game specific tactics and strategies that you can get acquainted with, and that can certainly be taught (though it also has to be practiced, as well). You can also try to give people the basic idea of switching up tactics, reading, watching for tells, etc. but actually putting that stuff into practice takes time and training, not reading.

The same is true for other skill based genres. You can read all the Starcraft guides in the world, but you're not going to become a good player unless you start playing them and putting in effort.

 

[Age]

Learn fundamentals the old fashioned way: Be 12 and play about 3000 hours of three different fighting games

This is what I'm hoping new players can avoid having to do. Instead of catching up to 20 years of fighting game meta by themselves, hopefully an explanation of what to try to learn while playing could cut it down to like 500 hours or even less.

My opinion is that few people actually want to learn these things in text format

I agree, that's why ideally I'd like us to create a well-presented concise video that covers 'fundamentals' preferably in under an hour.

And there's also the bottomless chasm which is simply agreeing what are fundamentals in the first place.

Some people think fundamentals are game specific, some people think fundamentals are character specific, some people think that fundamentals dont change much at all from game to game, even when comparing airdashers to non airdashers.

My broad definition of fundamentals (at least the kind of fundamentals I'd like a tutorial for) is the set of skills that are really transferable between fighting games. With specifically (so far) the list in the OP as a starting point.

We need to come up with a list of probably 5- 10 fundamentals to write about for oh say, a week, and then throw up another 10 fundamentals the next week. Anyone can participate and talk about as many or as few of that weeks fundamentals as they want..

Ok, that sounds like a better way to focus discussion. How about for this week we just brainstorm what fundamentals consist of, and then I'll chunk those into topics to focus on in the following weeks?

 

[agent13]

I agree, that's why ideally I'd like us to create a well-presented concise video that covers 'fundamentals' preferably in under an hour.

godspeed, that's all i got to say

 

[Mr. X]

Maj's Footsie Handbook is always relevant

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

 

[alexpi]

Fundamentals aren't taught. They're beat into you through repetition and some Japanese dude eating hundreds of dollars in quarters from you.

 

[dMags]

I think this is totally possible, but in my opinion the largest factor that will make this good or bad is the organization of content and how well it's presented. As it's been mentioned above, there is A TON of content that could be covered here, and it makes you ask the question...well what is truly a fundamental? The line isn't always clear as to what's considered a more advanced tactic ( which are usually more game specific ) vs. a true fundamental.

So anyway, I think it'd be appropriate to better define a few things to help with organization...

1. Who is the target audience? I'm guessing beginner's who are new to fighting games

2. What range of difficulty/skill is this going to cover? For example, anything in the meta-game ( reading your opponent, conditioning them, altering your play style on the fly, etc... ) isn't really Beginner stuff. Should that really be considered a Beginner fundamental?

3. Can all of the content/topics be broken into exercises? What I mean by this is, can training suggestions and goals regarding each topic be presented to the viewer, so that they actually have "homework" to practice after watching the video.

Personally, I feel like a large problem with tutorials and videos is that after a viewer watches the video, they don't really have a "next step", but typically they are left to analyze everything they just watched and need to figure out how to actually fit it into their gameplan. So I think it's key that a good fundamental video leaves the viewer with an idea of where they need to go next, what they need to practice, and more so that they understand why things are being fundamentals rather than simply acknowledging that they are.

Anyway, my SG fundamentals are horrible :-)

edit: grammar

 

[Squire Grooktook]

This is what I'm hoping new players can avoid having to do. Instead of catching up to 20 years of fighting game meta by themselves, hopefully an explanation of what to try to learn while playing could cut it down to like 500 hours or even less.

Those 20 years of fighting game meta can all basically be described as learning to play rock paper scissors.

I'd say most of that stuff is more game specific type things. The closest thing I'd recommend is Maj's footsies handbook, because while a lot of what he talks about isn't done quite the same way in air dash fighters (you won't see someone sweeping the end of your sweep in Marvel), the basic concept remains the same and he explains it in a way where you can understand how the idea of countering and "nothing is safe" applies to other fighters.

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

 

[Dime]

Ok, that sounds like a better way to focus discussion. How about for this week we just brainstorm what fundamentals consist of, and then I'll chunk those into topics to focus on in the following weeks?

Ok transferable fundamentals... Thats hard because it leaves fewer fundies to focus on.

Ill list what i can, few will probably agree with me though.


1. Execution (memorization, chunking, stick manipulation etc)
2. General pattern recognition/reading and knowing all the classic tells (psychology goes very far for getting reads) most people have blocks of moves that they use depending on their current psychological state.., like someone whom is afraid will press buttons, or stop moving, or be flatout on upback... Its easy to figure these things out if you arent trying to predict their behavior based on wrote reads and instead on what their current psychologivpcal state is. The ones i personally have identified are:



Confidence (attacking in an aggressive yet balanced way) players will try to play in a mix of on beat and off beat here to try and gain an advantage, this is what people generally play like at the beginning of the round in sg when they are playing a matchup that is even.
Fear (being scared of a situation and trying to keep from being in that situation) usually occurs right after being hit or after having been out into some serious pressure that they tried to break out of but took forever to do, or couldnt at all.
Confusion (not knowing what to do, usually accompanied by fear but not always) after fear has been felt for long lengths of time, confusion is usually the next step down the hole
Yolo (all out attacking for no good reason, usually accompanied by confusion but not always) when confused many players will yolo their shit cause they cant figure out what to do. This also tends to happen at round start in tournaments or just after round start.

For me, i read these and other psychological states to get a trump card on my ability to read how my opponent will try and deal with any give situation, because most players have a very limited set of moves they use in any state. This makes predicting them easier if you can learn their chunk and what chunk they are in. Chunks many times only last for a few frames. But its this reading ability that allows justin wong and chris g to be able to beat people that have way more experience than them at certain fighting games. Its just the high end ability to read.

And of course there is a whole lot more to read than just psychology. There is also spacial tells and analytical pattern recognition, rhythm reads etc etc.

There is more but this is honestly rather boring to write about and I'm drawing a blank, plus no one will agree with me anyways.

 

[Jason]

IMO fundamentals are not something that can really be "taught". Because "fundamentals" basically means "fundamental skills" aka the REALLY basic stuff in the human brain like reflexes, execution, multitasking, etc. You can't magically have good reflexes by reading a guide or discussion online, nor can you get them by giving up and never trying in the first place, you have to practice and train your brain over time.

I'm not sure that this is really what people mean when they say "fundamentals". I think there are some core concepts to fighting games that consist of Fundamentals.

- controlling space and controlling your opponent's options
- risk vs. reward
- reading your opponent's game plan and mind games

and these are absolutely things that you can teach somebody, although like anything else in a fighting game it has to be honed and refined with practice because you have to perform and think on your feet.

I feel another YT video tutorial coming on.

 

[Age]

psychology

The more I think about it the more I'm seeing this as a huge part of fundamentals (even though I didn't have it on the initial list).

I think you could think of it either as one big psychology topic or as understanding your psychology/understanding your opponent's psychology. Or knowing yourself and knowing the enemy if you want to go all art of war.

The reason I think this is so key is that many of the other aspects play back into psychology. Changes in resources can flip switches in players' minds, as can pressure tactics, or even movement.

So currently I'm thinking it goes something like this:

Execution
-Ability to put what your brain wants into practice in game
Awareness
-Recognising opportunities
-Tracking character resources for both players
-Noting the opponent's mindset
-Understanding the level of the opponent
Calculation/Analysis
-Judging the key ranges (Where are you least/most likely to find opportunities, where are they least/most likely to find them)
-Judging the key resources (what tools/resources dictate who has the advantage at a given range)
-Judging sure kills (when do you or they have the resources to guarantee a kill or timeout victory)
-Commitment (using prediction to turn something into an opportunity with risk)
-Risk/Reward
Control
-Feigning weakness (this is what footsies mostly consists of, but it is also used in other mindgames)
-Feigning strength (this is what allows pressure to build, by covering gaps with perceived threats)
-Feigning predictability (not sure if this should be separate from weakness, but this is how to condition the opponent)
-Dictating range (this is a tactical decision based on the best balance of finding opportunities and avoiding risks, and can be accomplished with movement or footsies)
-Building resources (when your best chance at finding opportunities isn't based on range but rather on how much meter you have, or how far you push them to the corner for example)
Tools
-Movement (allows you to dictate range with less of the risk associated with using attacks)
-Space control (allows you to limit the opponent's movement options by making certain areas dangerous)
-Zoning (allows you to dictate range with less of a cost to corner position, but more risk from using attacks)
-Footsies (allows you to bypass zoning or counter-footsies by feigning weakness and abusing a subsequent opportunity)
-Pressure (allows you to keep your opponent's options limited while applying damage/mixups, it encourages the opponent to commit in order to stop the cycle)

 

[Dime]

I agree with all of that. And even if it isnt a perfect correlation (i have my own doubts about psychology being a perfect 1 to 1 correlation/barometer of whats happening when it comes to reading people... But i think its like 90-98% true, in any case. And i also think that rhythm might be the other high end analysis needed to add to psychology.


Rhythm is something i was introduced to as a concept, Back in some obscure post on srk. The poster was a nobody and didnt post much, but it was in a fundamentals thread or something (which ive always been a crackhead for reading, because ive always been keenly aware that there is some fundamental that im Missing as a player that leads to me getting beaten) and this guy and his friend had compiled between 10-15 traits of high level players. It was all a very good read but their concept on rhythm was compelling. I had always thought about rhythm in a subconscious way, but never consciously as something that could be read to predict the opponent, or used to lure the opponent into a false sense of security, or used to make an opponent feel... Confused.

Like whenever i played against alex valle, i always felt like i was given so little to read... Yet he was doing so much. The reason why was because valles style is very off beat. His rhythm is super non existent. He plays off beat as fuck. Movement, jump style, wiffed pokes, all off beat... Its quite beautiful in the bewildering sense, to play against. AND CANNOT BE SEEN ON VIDEO because his off beat style changes to suit his opponents rhythm. So he may seem on beat on video because he's playing against this player..
But against YOU, his rhythm will change. And its pretty damaged disgusting.


Or maybe I'm completely wrong and he only plays off beat against me cause he knows how much it bothers me...


Anwways age... Youve got a good list there. Now the question is:

What do you want to do with it? Listing those things is well and good and already an accomplishment for any beginner to just see so they know how they should be thinking when it comes to leveling up. But what do we do to actually teach these concepts to people to make a measurable improvement?


Ive known about rhythm and playing offbeat for awhile now... But i dont actually know how to do it. Well ive done it once in the past, but it was a complete fluke. And the next round i wasnt able to do it anymore... The genius had left me. But it was exhilarating to feel, nonetheless.


In case anyone wants a good example of offbeat rhythm..watch john chois fireballs patterns... He switches from on beat to off beat quite alot.

 

[Age]

alex valle

When you finally meet an opponent who has the same Presence of Mind as you, he will think to himself “Who is this guy kidding with his obvious tricks?” You will feel a little silly, and your tricks might no longer work.

But there is a level of understanding even above that one. Once you meet the expert, can you no longer do your “Presence of Mind tricks?” I used to think that you basically couldn’t, and that you had to develop entirely different tactics. But then I noticed one player in particular who is unquestionably one of the best there is, and he often does things that are strictly terrible ideas in a textbook analysis. (His name is Alex Valle, and I’ll mention him again later.) He does sequence A when we all know that sequence B is strictly better. He does trick X when we all know that everyone decent can see trick X coming every time you do it, so it’s a waste of time to do it. But he does it, he hits with it, and he wins. Why?

Valle does not accept the notion that his opponent has a fixed, unchanging ability to see the moments. Valle does everything he can to fluster and confuse the opponent, reducing the opponent’s ability to see the moments. If something really weird happens in a game, the player can be caught in a moment of “what the hell was that?” and he’s momentarily blind to the passing moments. During this time, he might get hit by something he’d ordinarily see every time. Valle makes you lose focus and lose that sense of time slowing down.

I would say this is quite similar to misdirection for magicians. I guess it's a fourth form of deceit really, instead of conditioning the opponent you mask yourself.

As for rhythm I'd rather think of it as timing in general, but I can't think how I'd explain it as a single topic. It plays into resources, since in my opinion recovery frames and what you can cancel into are both resources to be counted, and the timing for when you gain tools (either by gaining a level of super meter, or landing and being able to do ground normals, or coming out of blockstun) are key timings to keep track of. There are also mindgames around timing where blockstrings can suddenly be turned into frame traps, mixups can suddenly turn into baits, etc. That said there is definately something about playing someone in a long set where you start to learn their timing, and it really does become a rhythm.

What do you want to do with it? Listing those things is well and good and already an accomplishment for any beginner to just see so they know how they should be thinking when it comes to leveling up. But what do we do to actually teach these concepts to people to make a measurable improvement?

I have some ideas of how I'd explain/demonstrate/suggest practice for some of these concepts. First I'd like to really like to understand them better myself, and see if other people have concepts that could be added. The goal of the video I think should be to take someone who had heard of 'fundamentals' but doesn't really understand how to get them actively, and give them conscious understanding of the concepts, and suggestions for training.

 

[Dime]

Yeah, misdirection is a key part of Alex's game. I dont know how he does it or makes it so believeable so consistently... What i do know is that many times i will read him... And then he does the exact opposite thing i was reading... Like just getting played like a puppet. He is the only player ive ever played against that played that way or made me feel as hopeless.

This is the only vid i have of us playing... Completely unremarkable cause this is like a month after sf4 came out.. But playing this set which i remember vividly... I remember not feeling as if i had ANY control whatsoever... Ive studied it to find clues... But I'm always at a loss to explain how i felt during the set versus what i see on the screen.

 

[Tomo009]

I think airdash academy did a good job of this.

We would need to approach it in a bite size, approachable way.

The topics are just so ambiguous in general and many people actually have different ideas or approaches to "fundamentals" so we would need to just focus on key things that really help open up the game and allow a beginner to see different facets of a game.

 

[Nevins]

This has been an informative read so far. I've been playing fighting games for over 20 years, but still like to read stuff like this once in a while so it stays fresh in my mind.

 

[Age]

I had another thought about how you could possibly categorise this stuff.

The surface game would be everything that makes up 'optimal' play. Stuff like the best risk/reward, the good pokes are different ranges, the 'correct' ways to approach each matchup. Mastering this basically means bodying low-intermediate level players pretty easily.

Then there would be yomi. Taking knowledge of the surface game, and then turning it on its head by assuming the game will be played on the surface level by the opponent. Strong becomes weak, weak becomes strong. This directly counters surface game players, but can lose to people who are either below that or have deeper yomi.

If both players can play on the yomi level, then it kind of becomes a rock/paper/scissors scenario of counters. This might be where psychology comes into play, since habits and triggers can be subconscious for the player but consciously countered by a strong opponent.

 

[Daemyx]

I think we should make a point on "dealing with defeat/loss" and on how it is a big part of learning fighting games.
You see newbies all the time going "I got destroyed online, I don't wanna play this game anymore" not realizing that you only learn when you lose.
When you win it's all fine and dandy, "I should keep doing exactly what I did" and your mistakes are not important. But in defeat they show up and slap you in the face.

 

[Fedora_Ninja]

I like James Chen's approach to fundamentals: sounds like something everyone should know, but the hardest and last thing people learn when it comes to learning fighting games.

http://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv/b/549936461

 

[Spencer]

For those more in the know, does anyone think SG could inherently teach something about the fundamentals better than another game?

It seems like SFIV (love it or hate it) would be a solid one to pick up just for fundamentals. I was suggested to try out KoF for fundamentals too. So what could SG teach just as well as or better than those games?

 

[ClarenceMage]

SG is actually awful with teaching fundamentals.

 

[BANG!]

fundamentals are all location, location, location

you like fundamentals check out some VSav, Street Fighter 2 and/or basically any KoF

 

[Kankato]

SG is actually awful with teaching fundamentals.

Incoming Noob question: Would you elaborate on this point?

 

[Tomo009]

Incoming Noob question: Would you elaborate on this point?

While you certainly need good fundamentals to play SG well, there are a lot of distractions with the abundance of system mechanics, ability to correct mistakes with resources and such that beginners tend to focus on instead of improving their fundamentals.

For fundamentals in fast paced/airdasher games, I would suggest VSav or KoF(I know it isn't an airdasher but it will teach you the right kinds of things).

 

[sketchspace]

Incoming Noob question: Would you elaborate on this point?

The big thing I have against Skullgirls and fundamentals is assists. While assists can cover character weaknesses (for example Fukua has weak get-off-me options, so having an out helps), it isn't always the best option. The opponent can bait the assist, counter-call the assist, whatever and attack that character.

Using assists can cover character weaknesses to a certain extent, but know that's not your only option. Same deal with assists covering spacing, attack recovery, etc. Sure you can practice without using assists, but then you're better off playing another fighting game.

 

[Dime]

Ok... Im tired of hearing that sg teaches bad fundamentals... Such as "relying on assists" or "safe dhc" etc etc.


The fact of the matter is that safe reversals are fundamental to many characters across new fighting games. Ryu and co. fadc. Ibuki ex dp and then throw a knife to protect her, rufus ex messiah into its followups etc etc.



The thing to realize is that there are around 5 different types of fighting games out there and each have differing fundamentals of their core game play:

The streetfighter types... Streetfighter and to a lesser extent kof.
The airdashers... GG BB and games like vsav etc
The 3d games.... Tekken, soul calibur, virtua fighter, doa... Etc
The ASSIST games.... Mvc1,2 and 3, skullgirls
The brawlers.... Ssbm, ssbb, playstation all stars etc


All these sub genres have both differing and universal fundamentals. And the universal fundamentals ARE NOT ENOUGH to win at an intermediate level in any of these genres.

Sg teaches the assist genre fundamentals perfectly fine.

It doesnt teach "streetfighter" or "kof" fundamentals very well at all... Cause all you are really getting is spacing and punishing as universal fundamentals. Even things like reacting and adapting and yomi arent inherently universal since you have to know what to look for to be able to punish well, and react well and know what the counters are.

I mean, we can all get on sg's case for not teaching how to play streetfighter well... But streetfighter doesnt teach how to play marvel well, or sg well, either. So...?

The fact that justin or chris g can come in and do so well at the game even though neither practice it, is a TESTAMENT to how good sg is as a universal platform for assist games.


Yeah, dont learn sg if you want to be good at GG. And likewise dont learn GG if you want to be good at SG.
This applies to all fighting games... Some have more overlap than others, but dont shit on sg as some dick noobs game because it has spammable assists to do all your gtfo and poking for you... in other games you have.... Spammable gtfo moves and poking moves to do your gtfo and poking for you.

And in other games you dont have to deal with an opponent attacking you with an assist. The closest you get is a puppet character and thats... Not that close to having an actual assist.

So yeah.

 

[Jason]

The fact of the matter is that safe reversals are fundamental to many characters across new fighting games. Ryu and co. fadc. Ibuki ex dp and then throw a knife to protect her, rufus ex messiah into its followups etc etc.

Not that I disagree with the rest of your post but against Ibuki EX-Flip Kick > Knife you can focus attack though the knife and get a full punish every time.

 

[Dime]

Not that I disagree with the rest of your post but against Ibuki EX-Flip Kick > Knife you can focus attack though the knife and get a full punish every time.

Yep totally true. I'm an ibuki main from way back. There are so many ways to punish it that it isnt funny... I wont even go into all the ways it can be punished. But the thing is... Those punishes arent 100% and more often than not... Ibuki comes out relatively unharmed. The only player i had consistently punish me EVERYTIME, HARD....was a top 8 evo player. Other punishes like ryu srk and stuff arent really hard punishes and focus punish require some serious reactorial tunnel vision because the focus has to be level 2. But most focus punishes are done a bit late so they end up being weak level 1 punishes cause they werent charged long enough.


Though things might certainly have changed by now and more people having put a lot more time into the game might be reacting much quicker after all this time. The last time i played ibuki or sf4 was over 2 1/2 years ago. I imagine things have changed :)


Also, depending on the character... Ibuki can break the focus with ex kunai on the way down (wink)

 

[dMags]

The thing to realize is that there are around 5 different types of fighting games out there and each have differing fundamentals of their core game play:

The streetfighter types... Streetfighter and to a lesser extent kof.
The airdashers... GG BB and games like vsav etc
The 3d games.... Tekken, soul calibur, virtua fighter, doa... Etc
The ASSIST games.... Mvc1,2 and 3, skullgirls
The brawlers.... Ssbm, ssbb, playstation all stars etc

I'm very glad you said this as it makes it much easier for me to make my point :-) In my opinion, I don't think a concept should be considered a fundamental unless it applies to ALL of these games. Otherwise, it's too specific to the game and should be considered a more advanced tactic, not a fighting game fundamental

For example, this is a very basic list but it applies to all fighting games as far as I know

- Mobility ( ability to move characters -> walking, dashing, jumping, crouching, etc... )
- Offense ( Normal attacks, Unique attacks, Special Attacks, Super/Ultra/Mega/ASSBLAST attacks, etc... )
- Defense ( Blocking mostly, recognizing high/lows -> this one is pretty brief as defense is rather simple in concept, yet takes hours and hours and hours of practice to master )
- Spacing/Zoning ( understanding that certain characters thrive at certain spaces )
- Resource Management ( health, super meters, stocks, etc... )

There could be more, but I think you guys get the idea.

I think the best way I can sum it up is this: Imagine that I just walked in with this new game 'Super Hyper Skullfighters EX: Trigger Blade IX-2' and you've never played befor....but you're familiar with other fighting games, WHAT SKILLS ARE YOU GOING TO TRANSFER OVER RIGHT OFF THE BAT? THESE ARE YOUR FUNDAMENTALS

 

[dMags]

stuff

Most importantly though, I think it should be decided if people want to compile fundamentals for Fighting Games as a whole, or specific to SG, because that alone will heavily steer the discussion in this thread.

 

[Spencer]

I view fundamentals as almost exclusively spacing. It obviously isn't, but if you learn spacing... everything else seems to start falling into place.

Picking PW as my first in many ways was a bad idea as she forgoes a lot of traditional "fundamentals", but her slow move startup and spacing requirements (she gets punished harder than a lot for bad spacing) has made moving into both Squigly and MF much, much easier.

 

[obregon]

Incoming Noob question: Would you elaborate on this point?

Well, one way of defining "fundamentals" includes stuff like getting the muscle memory for motions down, and SG doesn't use/require quite a few (double tap dashes, Anime-style IAD, 8-way dashing, double motions, irritating constant KoF-style half circles, half+quarters, double halfs). I mean, if you want to be good at SG, that stuff doesn't matter, but if you want to be able to whip randoms in any new FG in a few minutes and generally be way ahead of the curve, that's stuff you want.

Otherwise... SG has really long and involved single player stuff (combos are still pretty long, corner-to-corner carries, totally unreactable resets on the ground and even in the air since there's no air techs, etc.) that will let a newbie start winning against randoms much, much faster than trying to learn without them will. There's not much besides motions SG can't teach, but just progressing normally trying to get wins against better and better players will likely teach you to do boring stuff.

 

[Nevins]

I've only had the game 2 1/2 months and am limited to playing on weekends, but have played fighting games for 20 years, including the Marvel series. I'm not that great, but I have some knowledge to share with people newer to fighters.

When someone is in a PS3 beginner room I set up- if they're trying to get handle on solo play, I'll often start off playing solo against them so they don't have to deal w/assists & the rest. If they're good enough to beat or nearly beat me, I'll see if they can handle a team. That's one thing that's cool about the game: you can choose your team size.

If unranked rooms improve in the future, we may have chat, room names, etc. for consoles.
Interesting posts so far, thanks.

 

[Age]

The big thing I have against Skullgirls and fundamentals is assists.

Assists don't ignore fundamentals, nor do Ultras or any other game specific mechanic (unless it just removes all counterplay). An assist is just another resource to track.

-"applying heavy pressure gets me bopped by updo"
-"if his assist is recovering, I can apply pressure with more safety"
-"how can I convince this opponent to waste this valuable resource"

Thus the fundamental mindgames begin.