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Cerebella General

bubbaking said:
Oh, is that a very new change? I couldn't find it in the Encore patch list...
It's actually still just in the beta right now, but yes it is pretty new.
 
So I was looking at the Eliza c.hk thing recently, being that it now beats Fukua's lk shadow, reason being that lk shadow's status as a projectile trumps the fact that it trips. Made me start thinking about Pummel Horse not beating hit-grabs. I understand that because hit-grabs states as hits are more prevelant than them being grabs, but it still bothers me a bit. I actually think Pummel Horse may be Cerebella's only grab that if done at the same time during a mirror match won't just whiff. I was trying to get Pummel Horse to trade with Pummel Horse, but I couldn't get it. Could never tel if I was actually doing it at the same time and the game just favored one person, or if I was fucking up.
 
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BTW, Is a hit only invincible attack immune to hit grabs?
 
Along that same line of thought, is a grab-only invincible attack immune to hit grabs? The char I have in mind is Peacock with her M Bang...

Edit:
Zidiane said:
So I was looking at the Eliza c.hk thing recently, being that it now beats Fukua's lk shadow, reason being that lk shadow's status as a projectile trumps the fact that it trips.
I don't have PC SG, so I can't try out Eliza, but I was looking at her wiki and it said that her c.HK "absorbs multiple low hits". Perhaps that is the real reason it beats out Fukua's L Shadow? :/
 
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just tested :

silver chord hits pummel horse.
silver chord beats deflector.
lp bang get hit by pummel horse.
mp bang hits pummel horse.

yup, hit grabs are physical hits. not grabs.

you need to be invincible to hits to avoid them.
 
bubbaking said:
Wouldn't this be the same as cancelling j.LP into Grab Bag? You wouldn't get as big a follow-up, but you'd get more initial damage. I can see an actual grab giving much greater rewards, though.
It's WAY faster and harder to see. Plus, like you said, the rewards for a grab are better.
 
^^
i can confim that this tech is super good. ive been doing it a lot recently and dontt think its ever failed to hit so far.

its really easy to do as well. might have to start throwing it into my incoming mixups instead of j.lkxxgrab bag
 
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Evilweevle said:
^^
i can confim that this tech is super good. ive been doing it a lot recently and dontt think its ever failed to hit so far.

its really easy to do as well. might have to start throwing it into my incoming mixups instead of j.lkxxgrab bag
I can count the number of times I've had it teched on one hand. I also like to mix it up with j.lp j.lk grab bag, backwards jump j.lp j.mp (if j.lp activates IPS/undizzy), or j.lp j.lk delay j.mp (they block the j.mp) into a low/throw reset.

I never thought to use it on incoming! Them blocking the j.lp probably means that you can chain even faster. :D
 
yea ive been using j.lk xx grab bag on incoming for a looooooong time and it very rarely ever gets teched. reason i use lk is cause it has a better hitbox for catching people with.

i think it may require some extra lab work to get it working with the kara throw thingy
 
Why does Pummel Horse miss things it touches? I really feel like its hitbox should encompass the area that the hands occupy. I mean, I like scooping people out of the air as much as the next person, but the fact that Filia avoids it completely with ringlet spike (or feint) just looks like something that should never happen.

Also, I wish certain moves gave her hands invincibility. I hate that you can hit her hat during Excellebella and Kanchou.
 
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The thing I love/hate about grab bag, is that even if you know it's coming for certain, you can easily mistime the tech. I mean against some good players I can always grab bag on incoming, always, but they will tech normal air grabs.
 
Swiftfox-Dash said:
The thing I love/hate about grab bag, is that even if you know it's coming for certain, you can easily mistime the tech. I mean against some good players I can always grab bag on incoming, always, but they will tech normal air grabs.
I can see what you mean. The 6-frame difference between the tech windows is definitely significant.
 
Why does Cerebella get poisoned if she deflect's a poison syringe from Valentine?
 
Maybe it works like Val's counter where she technically still takes the hit for no damage?
Bella should just reflect the poison vial back. heh.
 
There was a bit of Bella discussion in the "Theoretical Character Change Discussion". Mostly by me. Figured this place doesn't get much traffic, so may as well bring it here too. Going to sum up change discussion with *stars* so you can get the gist of it, and can quickly move along to the relevant-to-real-world-bella stuff.
Zidiane said:
*19f "Glidestop" to stop gliding, giving Bella a safe-ish 34f air dash*

There are so many characters that even without assists can just snipe her out of the air if she starts gliding.

Realized I didn't cite any methods of punishing glide. I'll probably do that just for the sake of discussion, find all the options that can effectively shut Bella's glide down.

Zidiane said:
*Glide after Double Jump*

I asked Mike once and he said... something... I don't remember exactly, but it was something about having to limit her options to either a double jump or a glide iirc (Edit: which I probably don't). I don't remember why. But every other character that has a double jump and an air mobility option can use both (Peacock, Val, Ms.Fortun can all double jump and air dash).
Midiman said:
I've always wondered why j.2MP isn't special cancellable. Using the velocity of j.2MP to setup a Grab Bag reset would be fantastic, if not a bit powerful.

Zidiane said:
You think it may be powerful, and then you realize it's Grab Bag she's cancelling into.

*More comboable Elbow*

As of now, the only way to combo is to hit it just right and make the landing frame the first frame that connects. Which means you have to go through your full jump arc, and then just before you land you do it (Edit: There's also the glide under crossup). I think maybe the reason elbow doesn't have normal hitstun is because Mike didn't want her to have a 15f instant overhead? That's the only reason I can think of (Edit: and it's probably off base, as Mike'll probably tell me if he sees this). But characters in the game already have overheads that are that fast.

Even if you're in a position where you would overhead (Edit: With Elbow), Diamond Drop is a better option, cause it:

A) has better base damage (j+d.mp can only be cancelled to super, so j+d.mp, super does 4077, DDrop, super, Titan Knuckle does 4180)

B) has the chance for Dynamo to end in the corner and get around 8k

C) is 3X faster (DDrop 5f, Elbow 15F)

D) beats all the same options as Elbow while also being safer if the opponent jumps: Elbow and DDrop beat crouch block and grabs, and both lose to jump, but Elbow (Edit: on block) puts the opponent in a position where any crouching light can punish where as DDrop is safe against most characters unless they do very specific things (instant overhead, IAD, air super).

(Edit: Forgot to mention, but Elbow actually beats jump if they jump but don't block. Which is a rare happening, but still. You can super afterward for 4k, and have the chance for DHC.)
Zidiane said:
*Grab Bag strafing, to strafe left and right with those directions, hold up to descend slower, and hold down to stop Grab Bag. Untechable Kncockdown Grab Bag also mentioned*

Cause I mean... 2.7k with no possible followup sans specific assist setups. Now that normal air grab has been fit to the rest of the casts air grabs, and she can actually do things from it, there's little to no reason I can see to choose grab bag over air grab.

dekillsage said:
you get 2.7k off of grab bag which is the same as doing a super why should it have a sliding knockdown? come on lol

Zidiane said:
(Don't really know why, but I directly compared raw super to Grab Bag. It applies if you super after something as well, like DDrop or Excellebella)

If super ends in the corner you get 6k, 7k for a second bar. During that combo there are also reset opportunities. There's also the chance to catch two characters in the super and double snap for a dead character. If your super connects midscreen, you can DHC to your other character, getting bella to safety. On block, if you have a safe DHC (which you should) you can use it, getting bella to safety.

If Grab Bag lands you get 2.7k period. If it connects you have to chase down your opponent again (unless it landed in the corner). If it misses you get OTG'd free. You can still get grabbed out of it. And of course, air grab is now better than it in almost every way (more damage, reset opportunities, DHC opportunities, more meter gain, safer).
dekillsage said:
Don't say airgrab is better in almost every way or it'll get nerfed.

Grab bag is a reset/incoming tool that gives you a giant chunk of damage and meter for no risk if it doesn't work (Edit: No one mentioned it, but I BELIEVE there's a risk if the opposing character has an air super, don't remember for certain). You SHOULDN'T be using it midscreen unless you think it'd kill and landing it in the corner which is where it should be used gives you all the positioning you need. If I do bella's regular bnb I can't choose to spend a second bar because I already used my otg. If I want more damage than what I would have gotten from a super grab bag is a easy way to do it. Giving it a sliding knockdown would be too much and add to her already too good vortex because now you just have them knocked down as you stand there for 3 seconds setting up for free.

I do not want grab bag to be better than it is now.
Broseidon Rex said:
Maybe a change to grab bag would be limiting the meter gain by the opponent? Currently, I believe bella gets 1/3 meter and the opponent 1/4. If maybe they got less, there'd be more incentive to use it against meter hungry characters like peacock or eliza.
Zidiane said:
"If I want more damage than what I would have gotten from a super grab bag is a easy way to do it"
That is true. Though I'd also argue that nearly any reset even at max Undizzy can get you more damage and more (if not similar) meter gain.

For example: c.lk reset into c.mp, s.hk, runstop, c.lp, c.mp, s.hk, Excellebella gets 4.1k for much more meter (looks like 2x Grab Bag), MGR, c.lk, c.mp, s.hk, runstop, c.lp, c.mp, s.hk, Excellebella gets 4.2k and more meter (looks like 1.5x), normal grab, c.lk, c.mp, s.hk, runstop, c.lp, c.mp, c.hp Excellebella gets 4.2k and more meter (1.5x looks like), and air grab, j.lk, c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, Excellebella gets 2.7k and a bit more meter. Those all of course come with super/reset/dhc opportunities.

I don't even explicitly want sliding/untechable knockdown, just something to make it worth using over anything else bella can do. The only thing it has going for it is that it's sorta nice on incoming, which happens only like once or twice a match. (Edit: Neglected to mention that it also can be canceled from some of your air buttons for a reset, which is still not as useful with the lp~lk grab thing since Air Grab is actually a good option now.)
 
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So apparently if you get the Mike Z Cat from Cerebella's Lock n' Load and immediately go into Ultimate Showstopper the cat can't figure out which side to exit the screen because it keeps shifting left and right due to the move.

It's hilarious, the cat just keeps changing directions.
 
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Denizen said:
Lock n' Load and immediately go into Ultimate Showstopper
I did lnl cancel 360 once. On an airdashing filia.
It combo'd...
9 months later, I still can't figure out what the fuck happened...
 
dragonos451 said:
I did lnl cancel 360 once. On an airdashing filia.
It combo'd...
9 months later, I still can't figure out what the fuck happened...
the frames is not exactly pure "hitstop" so when you canceled as air dashing filia you prolly got her while she literally just landed.
 
but I cancelled right when I hit her, she should still be in hitstun! the very frame she landed got some weird property?
btw I should precise : it didn't really combo, but 360 still grabbed while filia should have been in hitstun for 30 more frames.
perfectly unable to recreate it, of course.
 
dragonos451 said:
but I cancelled right when I hit her, she should still be in hitstun! the very frame she landed got some weird property?
btw I should precise : it didn't really combo, but 360 still grabbed while filia should have been in hitstun for 30 more frames.
perfectly unable to recreate it, of course.
..........dragon ima have to ask you not to do this weird shit all the time. *remembers the LNL hitting my backwards parasoul*
 
Dreamepitaph said:
ima have to ask you not to do this weird shit all the time
take me out of your friend's list and don't watch my next combo vids
 
I watched it 10 times and still don't see the kanchou coming
 
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Protip: If Bella jumps UF after c.mk, block in reverse.

Secret Protip: Unless she's magic and knows the special secret that makes j.hk not crossup.
 
Should I reveal the protip, that dragonos definitely knows?
 
Reveal the Dragonos protip.
 
I'm assumign doublejump cancel. Could be horribly wrong
 
Wow, I have a reputation now?
Darn.

And yeah, double jump cancel can give you a not cross up if you do it early enough.
 
I've been doing it for one side for a while, but the cross up never occurred to me.
 
You can make it not crossup without double jumping, too.
 
I also know the secret trick that makes c.mk j.hk blockable in both directions.
 
Hi!

I might be picking this character up.

I have some basic question which basically comes down to "How do you move into a threatening position" -
With Parasoul I can do Tears and things until there is an opening for Dash cLK/6LP/Throw;
With Filia I'm all over the place and can cross mid distance really fast with wavedash wavedash into cLK/IAD jLK;
With Peacock I can force the opponent to come to me on my terms, have a Doom charging, and then just run forward - if he backs off I drop the doom and go back to zoning, else I'm in an advantageous position as well;
Etc - but how does Bella do it? Her movement is too slow for "surprise, BAM!", she can't just hang at fullscreen if the opponent doesn't do things, etc.

Sev has helped me a lot already, but I figured I might as well post this here too and see whether I get some additional ideas on how to use her various movement options to get into the threatening cLK/MGR range, and what to do against people who stick to the air.

Here's the OG question in a bit more Detail:
Do you have any advice on how to land hits with Cerebella?
If I have landed a hit, mixups are easy.
If I'm in cLK/MGR mixup range, obviously it's also easy
But at midrange, how do I properly approach in a scary way?

- Her dash seems too slow for dash-cLK to really be a thing,
- Jumparound Buttons sometimes hits, but rarely converts (jMP/jHP aint leading to combos), same with Titan Knuckle
- If the opponent just sticks to the air I get bonus issues, since her airthrow isn't exactly the best

cMP(whiff) xx MGR to get better range on the grab is a thing, I guess?
I dont use run/runstop in neutral much at all, how does it work? Run>Ram if they pushed a button and RunStop low/throw or Run-360 else? Again, this kinda sounds susceptible to the opponent just jumping
etc

I feel like all my hits are either because the opponent was really stupid, or I landed a super hard read; nothing is "forced" such as para dashins or filia IADs etc
Half+ my hits are just silly Excels the opponent jumped into, I doubt that to work against decent players..

TL;DR: what do you do against mobile players, who stick outside of MGR range and properly choose a time to go in?
Lots of guess-cLK and guess-sLK outside range, hoping that the opponent happens to dash/IAD into it?
I have a hard time wrapping my head around her ways of getting into a threatening spot and opening people up (while simultaneously not getting trashed by her opponent)

Thanks for any pointers!
 
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Next; I looked at this guide by @Zidiane
Thank you for this guide! It's nice to have such a thing.
But I am me, so .. I say things.

Since that thread is closed (for whatever reason?) and Zidiane is not on the IRC, I will ask my questions / say my things here
Most of these are minor nitpicks, but some I think are kind of relevant..

I'm aware the thread is over a year old, but it's the only guide like this in here, and as such the one that people read. It was also updated a bunch in times past, so I guess Zid has an interest in keeping it sort-of-fresh?

---

1.1 "Well, for one, she has the simplest, easiest combos of the entire cast."
- Disagreeing with this; Bella has access to some of the harder stuff in the game, and not just that but actually *requires* some practice to get basic things (such as the jLPn-jHP restand after cHP) down. That's a minor nitpick, though

1.2. sMP
- No mention of any use for this move in neutral, despite it's tremendous hitbox. Is it bad for some hidden reason, or getting overshadowed by something else, or?

1.2. sHP
- Can this be used as an AA? 17f startup is a lot, but eg Val sHK has 16f and is a pretty useful tool. Again, the hitbox looks rather nice?

1.2. sLK "best followed up in that situation being s.mp."
- Either "best follow-up", or "by s.mp"

1.2. cLP "It’s nice to know that if you accidentally crouch early, your combo won’t mess up though."
- Mine does ;_; cLP has more pushback or such than sLP, so at maxrange, sLP cMK is going to combo while cLP cMK has the cMK whiff

1.2. cHP
- Now this is listed as a possible AA, but the hitbox of it is rather.. average. Is this actually used, and if yes, against what?

1.2. cMK "that pulls the enemy towards you, unlike any other launcher in the game."
- Fukua cMP :^)

1.2. jLP "Anytime you knock the opponent up into the air, for the most part, you can connect with this move and bring them back down."
- Not after cMK, or something like MGR - OTG cLK cHP, where the jLP either whiffs completely or after one-two hits?

1.2. jMP/jLK air-to-air comparison
- Maybe note that jMP will often not lead to a combo due to jMP-jHK whiffing (which means you rather go for jMP-jHP), while jLK-jHK is pretty much guaranteed if the jLK hits? At least I haven't had the latter fail so far.

1.2. Specials - Devil Horns
- Maybe note that you can cancel this thing into 360, which is kind of useful..

1.2. Specials - Run>Ram (Battle Toads, Headbutt, whatever)
- Maybe note that this is entirely not-supercancellable due to putting you into the air?

1.2. Specials - Grab Bag
"it can catch an opponent earlier after an aerial attack (j.lp, grab bag can be done faster than j.lp, grab)"
- This is untrue thanks to grab plinking
"I’ve been grabbed out of grab bag before. "
Confused how this works? The Grab Bag is active and then someone jump airthrows and you get thrown? Or similar?
Bonus note, maybe mention that the tech window for this is significantly smaller than for normal airthrows

1.2. Supers - Diamonds are Forever "It also has unlimited super armor. "
- Is Hyper Armor (important difference; meaning it doesn't lose to sweeps and sweep-like moves)

1.4. Weights
"When you’ve got your ideal combos down, and ESPECIALLY your resets, make sure to make sure that it works on everyone from everywhere. If it doesn’t, slight variations will be necessary, either in timing or buttons."
- This section is posted twice, once in the first paragraph, once in the last

1.6. Teams
- Uses the old damage ratio stuff, 160% instead of 150%
Not really interested in this (or the IPS section), so not reading it and thus can't find any possible mistakes

2.1. Scaling
- Command Grabs scale to 55%, not 50%
Same thing, not really reading this, just jumped into my eye

2.3. Pushblocking
"If they consistently push both the swat and the clap, this will probably catch them, though don’t do it often against any character with air supers. Also, if they consistently push both j.mp and j.hp, you probably won't be able to catch them with it. "
- What?

2.4. Standing in the Opponent's Face
- I don't get this entire cMK section. You say that cMK is great, but then go on to say that one shouldn't push cMK. If it's cLK-cMK, then cLK is the "great" button, and there's no explanation why this would be better than cLK-cMP-cHP.

2.4. Standing Away from the Opponent
"but mp and hp lnl both outrange the s+f.hp, though you won’t be using those in neutral as much as you’ll use lnl.."
- I figure this means "as you'll use 6HP"?
"C.lk is the most dangerous range for your opponent to find herself stuck in, because it’s the only range that Cerebella can start a combo from (excluding a ranged level 3)."
- cMP xx MGR has much farther range than Sweep, let alone cLK

2.4. Attacking an Airborne Opponent
- Again, sMP and sHP look like they're usable; why are they no good?

3.1. Unique Starting Moves
"From a PH, you still have freedoms, any standing normal and will connect, but you can’t, for example, do MGR if they shake out of it. You can, however, do US, the super grab, for some decent damage."
- Really, this was the first thing I read and the main reason for making this post. You got this right in the "Specials" section, dunno what's up here! 360 after Pummel Horse is not a combo.

"Ground normal grab won’t net you shit unless you are in the corner."
- 2nd part that struck my eyes, this is criminally dangerous misinformation!
To quote MikeZ: "Cerebella's throw can be combo'd off midstage with Copter, Excellabella, or Pummel Horse.
Excellabella works on Valentine, Squigly, Peacock, Parasoul, and Double and lets you use Dynamo and continue moving them toward the corner with OTG left. (And with using the OTG on Big Band ha.)
Pummel Horse works on Painwheel, Filia/Fukua, Eliza, Squigly, Double, and Big Band and lets you get a FULL COMBO afterward for no meter.
Copter works on basically everyone except Peacock, with the important characters being Cerebella and Fortune."
You know this, why is it not in the Guide! Instead you keep telling people that the Grab doesn't net anything.

[After Dynamo] "Like I explained earlier, you can dash, c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, for a full combo, but that's difficult."
- I'm pretty sure this doesn't work anymore? Like, since 1.5 years ago or something.

3.2. Combo Extenders
"s.hp, Pummel Horse (loop, followed with any normal): This is a bit more difficult"
- This is impossible to miss via [4]HP-6[LPLKMK]

"c.mp, s.hp, Kanchou (loop, need to be really close): [..] If you miss with it, as in they block, you just need to do it faster."
- Again, this is impossible to miss via [4]HP-6[MKHK]

"c.hp, j.lk, j.hp, j.lp, j.mk, j.hp (restand/OTG):"
- Note that this is corner-only?

"c.mp, runstop, c.lp (loop): [..] I'm not sure if you can get c.lk"
- cMP runstop is +8, so it's a 2f link into s/cLP and can't link into anything else

"I don't know if it's worth it, it probably is, but it's here regardless."
- If "it probably is", then why "but .. regardless"? Do you mean "probably isn't"?

3.4. Double Snaps
- Don't build Meter for you anymore so these numbers are definitely wrong. Haven't really read since this is easy

3.5. "after a raw Kanchou (or one done before stage 3), it will only watch the second button you hit before they hit the ground (ex. Kanchou, c.mp, c.hp, only c.hp will be watched)"
- This isn't true anymore (sounds like one of those SDE IPS glitches)

3.6. "The first is a technique known as… wait, I don’t know this techniques name. lol. "
- Absolute Guard

"The second technique is known as Push Block Guard Cancel. This one is by far the most difficult technique to use in the game."
- PBGC is really not that hard, and sentences like this force players away from attempting it.. which in turn makes their defence utter shit.

3.7. DHCs "(it is temporarily due to a bug, but it won't be for long)."
- It still is, and at this point Mike stated he's keeping it in :^) Also, it's best used by simply comboing into Lenny DHC 360, via L.Bang

Tags "Raw Tags: Raw Tags are when you do something, then tag your opponent in. The most preferred are one's that combo, though you can also have setups to allow safe tags."
- Raw Tag is when you Raw Tag, not when doing it during a combo. You can't tag your opponent in.

- PLEASE note that Bella's tagin is the best in the game due to randomly crossing up in the corner, which is one of the best reversals there are

"If your back is to the corner (which means it won’t happen too often without a reset), calling assist after c.mk will cause Val to cross them up."
- For one Val tag crossing up was fixed, for two I'm sure you didn't mean "calling assist"

4.1. "[PH followups] Anything that starts in 17 frames (I can get s.hp to land, but not cerecopter) and under can be used, but no more."
- Note that one becomes throw invincible towards the end of stagger (I think the last 15f?), which is the reason for neither MGR nor US working

"[Untechable Burstbaits] Moves that cause knockdown, that you can use succesfully in this situation, include c.hk,"
- Untechable Burstbaits don't work off sweeps anymore, the opponent is now able to tech

---

This is as far as I have read so far, it's now kinda very late so I will continue this later
.. Unless of course Zidiane comes in and shouts "Noooo, I won't update the thread"
But even then it'd probably be nice if a mod could do the things..
 
I don't have time to read all the things you wrote just now, but I will.

The thread was closed because it started to be more of a hub than a guide, and I don't know, someone said I should lock it for some reason or another. I don't remember. But I'm interested in updating the guide with the things you pointed out (almost no one ever pointed things out). I stopped updating it myself because trying to comb through the whole guide every time there was a big update that changed a bunch of things got real old real fast, so I was going to actually wait until Robo Fortune came out, since that seems like the last time we're really getting updates, and combing through one last time and making the video guide with that.
 
IsaVulpes said:
1.2. sHP
- Can this be used as an AA? 17f startup is a lot, but eg Val sHK has 16f and is a pretty useful tool. Again, the hitbox looks rather nice?

1.2. cHP
- Now this is listed as a possible AA, but the hitbox of it is rather.. average. Is this actually used, and if yes, against what?
I can say that sHP can be used as an AA but it only seems good from its maximum range. Otherwise it trades more.
I dont' use cHP as an AA much, I prefer to use sLK
 
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