Character Discussion & Balancing - Community Feedback Wanted

[Abez-the-Orphan]

Hey guys, my name is Kenneth and I'm putting together a tag team fighting game that I would hope proves a worthy successor to UMvC3. (or at the very least, something to past the time until we get MvC4 am I right?!) The name of the game is Forebearance

Anyway, as the thread says up front, I want to involve everyone in the discussion of the characters I want to have in this game. I get feedback locally as well, as I want this to be something we can play for a long time. As fighting game fans, we tend to have some super amazing ideas and it would be sick to see them come true. Now, these characters are developed for the system in which we created. This discussion is to find out what feels right or wrong for you concerning the characters. The game is being developed on the Unreal 4 Engine and will follow a 2.5D format.

So, what is the system?

4 button attack layout

Pale (light)
Moderate (medium)
Weighted (heavy)
Intense (strong)

When you think UMvC its like the 3 attack 1 special, except all 4 buttons act as normal

Unique (Command normals) slightly less damaging normals that have special properties.
Signatures (Specials) each strength does a specific amount of damage.
Exertion (EX specials) this are the best versions to character signatures.
Exceed (Hyper) High damage moves that very from character to character, some may be a boost or debuff.
Throws are unscaled and deal minor damage depending on character
Ultimates (Level 3's) These are the cream of the crop attacks or effects that truly set the character apart. Can 1 hit kill as these moves are also unscaled

Trait - Each character has a special trait that is unique to them. Be it gaining HP or performing a counter. Traits are fundamental to the characters within Forebearance as they can be very helpful to their success. Traits cost stamina to use and depending on the effect dictates how much stamina is drained for its activation.

STAMINA - A regenerating meter that is broken into 5 segments equaling 1000 pts. Players will need stamina to block attacks, perform reversals and make use of their unique trait. If a segment is depleted the character enters a broken state. If they are successfully attacked again, that segment will become locked and unusable until the next game. You cannot fall below 1 segment.

EXCEED - A meter that is built up by landing attacks on your opponent or by means of boosts. Chip damage will grant you a small amount of exceed. You will use Exceed to perform your EX, Hyper, and Level 3 attacks, you can also spend exceed to free break or SOUL BURST out of your enemies offense. This feat costs 2 bars.

SOUL BURST - a small orb that you bgin the match with full. After it is used, you must allow it to recharge over a course of seconds before it becomes usable again. This prevents the use of 2 exceed bars when under pressure. Soul Bursts deal no damage, but resets the characters to neutral, with the burster having limited advantage.

All characters share the same HP amount, as I wanted the focus to be on the characters tools and not a game of who is beefier. Also with the various boost elements and debuffing agents, it was better to do it this way.

Red health is a commodity, as it is recoverable overtime in solo and tag play. Red health can be healed back using healing signatures.

TAG SYSTEM - Characters fighting in a team have access to a couple ways to tag in and out. The main being the QUICK TAG which allows characters to exchange out quickly in order to continue combos. The HARD TAG is still possible and of course can be used to extend combos or maybe give a safer entry into combat. The PRE - EMPTIVE TAG is a variation of quick tag that brings the character in behind the opponent. and finally, the TAG SHIELD, where you have a character come out and tank damage for you doubling your exceed gain.

Boy, I'm sleepy...

The game follows the standard archtypes. We have zoners, rushdown, grapplers, stance charactes, support characters, debuff characters, etc. Character uniqueness was a main focus in their design and I hope it will show as we speak on them.

I'll need a nap...

 

[Fumako]

Yooo, this seems cool.
Will share my thoughts, but keep in mind that I am only a moderate player at best.

Spoiler: yay no unnecessary clutter!

Ultimates (Level 3's) These are the cream of the crop attacks or effects that truly set the character apart. Can 1 hit kill as these moves are also unscaled

Honestly not a fan of this being unscaled. Bolded text in mind, it seems that one touch kill combos are going to be intentionally allowed?
Please no. :/
Either scale them or make it so that you can't combo into 'em.

Trait - Each character has a special trait that is unique to them. Be it gaining HP or performing a counter. Traits are fundamental to the characters within Forebearance as they can be very helpful to their success. Traits cost stamina to use and depending on the effect dictates how much stamina is drained for its activation.

STAMINA - A regenerating meter that is broken into 5 segments equaling 1000 pts. Players will need stamina to block attacks, perform reversals and make use of their unique trait. If a segment is depleted the character enters a broken state. If they are successfully attacked again, that segment will become locked and unusable until the next game. You cannot fall below 1 segment.

Now this, I can get behind. It's gives every character a nice risk-reward system where you can gain an advantage at the risk of getting wrecked on block.
I'm guessing it works like the "mana" (or whatever it's called) in Hisoutensoku? I mean, it's even the same amount!
My only problem is how you word it, "If a segment is depleted," so even trait moves aren't allowed to use stamina below one segment? Hell, if it breaks after one segment then what's the point of chopping it up into 5 parts? Why not just go with one singular "Guard" meter that also doubles as the "Stamina."
In which case, I suggest it be like in Hisoutensoku: Moves can deplete past 1 segment, blocking depletes past 1 segment, and a segment is only "broken" when the entire bar is depleted.

Then again, you didn't really word it well enough; so maybe that's how it's already planned?
Would also like to see a Hisoutensoku-like zoner whose projectiles drain Stamina rather than being regular specials.

EXCEED - A meter that is built up by landing attacks on your opponent or by means of boosts. Chip damage will grant you a small amount of exceed. You will use Exceed to perform your EX, Hyper, and Level 3 attacks, you can also spend exceed to free break or SOUL BURST out of your enemies offense. This feat costs 2 bars.

SOUL BURST - a small orb that you bgin the match with full. After it is used, you must allow it to recharge over a course of seconds before it becomes usable again. This prevents the use of 2 exceed bars when under pressure. Soul Bursts deal no damage, but resets the characters to neutral, with the burster having limited advantage.

Errr, wording here also confuses me...
Under Exceed it says that breaking out of pressure with Soul Burst requires 2 bars, under Soul burst however it says that it's a small orb that seems to be it's own resource.
??

Red health is a commodity, as it is recoverable overtime in solo and tag play. Red health can be healed back using healing signatures.

Thank god it doesn't lock us into using a set amount of characters...
The only reason I couldn't get into KoF

The PRE - EMPTIVE TAG is a variation of quick tag that brings the character in behind the opponent.

I'm guessing this either doesn't cross-up or has a special indicator?
Seems like an easy way to get out of corner, too, so I suggest maybe making it need meter? I feel like it'd be a bit too useful otherwise.

I'll need a nap...

Yeah, you better. :P

Some other things I'd like to ask:
PBGC?
Is this actually already in the works or is this still just "We're talking about it! Let's fling some ideas!" and is there already a team?
Related: Any concept art or early game footage?
And when do we see/talk about character concepts? Do we just provide feedback or can we also fling shit at the wall and see what sticks? (I'd totally be down to making characters with other people, maybe learn the different ideas of balance people have)

aaaahhhh, sorry for being so talkative; this project just seems really exciting for me~

edit:
Some things I noticed while rereading...

"Trait - Each character has a special trait that is unique to them. Be it gaining HP or performing a counter. Traits are fundamental to the characters within Forebearance as they can be very helpful to their success. Traits cost stamina to use and depending on the effect dictates how much stamina is drained for its activation."

Considering the control scheme... 4 buttons, command normals, specials, EX specials, supers, and at least one level 3...
How the hell are you going to fit all that in?
It seems a bit too... complicated and not very user friendly.
Plus, considering the presence of EX moves, I'm guessing that supers, rather than being QCF PP or something, would be Double QCF PP like in SF.
PLUS, considering the already cramped move list, the only remaining motions, it seems to me at least, are SNK-type stuff like Half-Circle Back, Forward WHICH I'M NOT A FAN OF and imo serve as an unnecessary hurdle for prospective players. Did I mention this stuff is uncomfortable as hell to do?
THEN CONSIDERING THAT, where do Trait moves go?

TL;DR

YOU HAVE TOO MANY SHIT FOR NOT ENOUGH CONTROLS WHICH, LOGICALLY, MEANS THAT MORE COMPLICATED MOTIONS COME INTO PLAY
The cramped control scheme (or move list?) can pose a problem in fast-paced play
The logical conclusion of motions beyond QCs DPs and 360s, imo, prove to be an unnecessary hurdle for some players.
THERE ISN'T EVEN ANY SPACE LEFT TO PUT TRAIT MOVES, wait I just realised that it might just be, say, PP KK or KP, whoops.
also just thought that maybe they're just normal specials that happen to use stamina :v
Still a valid argument for everything else, though, I think.

TL;DR 2

Probably should've taken that nap before writing this, huh

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

Yooo, this seems cool.
Will share my thoughts, but keep in mind that I am only a moderate player at best.

Spoiler: yay no unnecessary clutter!

Honestly not a fan of this being unscaled. Bolded text in mind, it seems that one touch kill combos are going to be intentionally allowed?
Please no. :/
Either scale them or make it so that you can't combo into 'em.

Kenneth: Thanks for the feedback! I can stand behind what you are saying, now. Will one touch kill combos be intentionally allowed? Yes and no. They can be combed into but only if certain requirements are met. 1 is there enough hit stun in the combo? 2. will it reach? Ultimates have very limited range and may require you to be up close on the enemy. They also suffer the habit of having poor recovery meaning you will most certainly be punished for missing it. So in some ways, no they cannot be combed into, they need an assist to aid them or you need to perform a specific string of attacks to catch it in a combo. With that being said, landing them aren't near impossible just extremely challenging and because of the burst you might just get baited and lose all that resource if used during the first hit.


Now this, I can get behind. It's gives every character a nice risk-reward system where you can gain an advantage at the risk of getting wrecked on block.
I'm guessing it works like the "mana" (or whatever it's called) in Hisoutensoku? I mean, it's even the same amount!
My only problem is how you word it, "If a segment is depleted," so even trait moves aren't allowed to use stamina below one segment? Hell, if it breaks after one segment then what's the point of chopping it up into 5 parts? Why not just go with one singular "Guard" meter that also doubles as the "Stamina."
In which case, I suggest it be like in Hisoutensoku: Moves can deplete past 1 segment, blocking depletes past 1 segment, and a segment is only "broken" when the entire bar is depleted.

Kenneth: My fault ^^ 1000 stamina over 5 segments = 200 per segment. You can use traits all day as long as you have the needed amount of stamina to activate them. Why was it done this way? To promote offense and meter management. Here are the numbers. These numbers follow per hit.

Normal Hit on block = 2pts of stamina (example) My normal chain of 4 buttons consists of 5 total hits, that's only 10 stamina I lose out of 200! I can spend 100 and perform a guaranteed reversal and possibly steal the momentum! or I can take a step back and allow my stamina recharge to kick in after 2 seconds. The game timer works at 3 seconds = 1 timer second. So in under a second you can start healing that back up.

Unique hit on block = 3pts of stamina
Signature hit on block = 4pts of stamina
Exceed hit oh block = 5pts of stamina
Reversals = 100 stamina activation
Traits = vary from character to character i.e 1pt drain a sec to even seeing 10 points per attack or a chunk like 125 to activate.


:I should further clarify that reversals are not necessarily going to hit, they have start up unchanged by the pre-existing move used. They do however deal weaker damage than the standard move normally. (pressing the medium attack and the weighted attack together activates the trait normally or the reversal if your under fire)

Then again, you didn't really word it well enough; so maybe that's how it's already planned?
Would also like to see a Hisoutensoku-like zoner whose projectiles drain Stamina rather than being regular specials. (Oh you will)

Errr, wording here also confuses me...
Under Exceed it says that breaking out of pressure with Soul Burst requires 2 bars, under Soul burst however it says that it's a small orb that seems to be it's own resource.
??

Kenneth: My bad, wow I was feeling it. Soul Burst while ready for use, overrides the 2 bar drain of Free Break. The two are quite literally the same, except once costs you less resource and has a cooldown, while the other takes your exceed meter JUST so you could have the same effect. It does seem pointless, but I'm catering to a casual audience so, allowing them to have options is key to their growth. (Press all 4 attack buttons together to perform the Burst / Break)

Thank god it doesn't lock us into using a set amount of characters...
The only reason I couldn't get into KoF

I'm guessing this either doesn't cross-up or has a special indicator?
Seems like an easy way to get out of corner, too, so I suggest maybe making it need meter? I feel like it'd be a bit too useful otherwise.


Kenneth: Great point it would be too free XD each tag has its purpose and that one is so 50 / 50 its nice. You can use it to get out of a corner, you can use it to put yourself in the corner. Lets say Ryu pulls an shinku hadouken (cheeky bastard that one) you made the read and use the PREEMPT tag. Your character has to run in from the other side behind the opponent. They can be murdered during that run, but in this case, because Ryu is still firing that shinku beam, You can land a punishing combo!

If you play with a PS controller... R1 tags ASSIST 1 L1 tags ASSIST 2. To hard tag HOLD ASSIST BUTTON. To Preempt press 6 + ASSIST Button or F + ASSIST. To shield press 4 + ASSIST or B + ASSIST


R2 and L2 are your assist attacks


Yeah, you better. :P

Some other things I'd like to ask:
PBGC?
Is this actually already in the works or is this still just "We're talking about it! Let's fling some ideas!" and is there already a team?
Related: Any concept art or early game footage?
And when do we see/talk about character concepts? Do we just provide feedback or can we also fling shit at the wall and see what sticks? (I'd totally be down to making characters with other people, maybe learn the different ideas of balance people have)

aaaahhhh, sorry for being so talkative; this project just seems really exciting for me~

Kenneth: This is being worked on right now, my team is small and i'm still recruiting for it. We are just talking about it. I want to see if this is something that would be liked or wanted. Get others personal feelings on it before we start ramping it up. See if i'm missing anything or not. Yes this is my dream project and the final version will reflect my dream, but what's the point of that if I don't appease to the audience by which I am trying to reach?

edit:
Some things I noticed while rereading...

"Trait - Each character has a special trait that is unique to them. Be it gaining HP or performing a counter. Traits are fundamental to the characters within Forebearance as they can be very helpful to their success. Traits cost stamina to use and depending on the effect dictates how much stamina is drained for its activation."

Considering the control scheme... 4 buttons, command normals, specials, EX specials, supers, and at least one level 3...
How the hell are you going to fit all that in?
It seems a bit too... complicated and not very user friendly.
Plus, considering the presence of EX moves, I'm guessing that supers, rather than being QCF PP or something, would be Double QCF PP like in SF.
PLUS, considering the already cramped move list, the only remaining motions, it seems to me at least, are SNK-type stuff like Half-Circle Back, Forward WHICH I'M NOT A FAN OF and imo serve as an unnecessary hurdle for prospective players. Did I mention this stuff is uncomfortable as hell to do?
THEN CONSIDERING THAT, where do Trait moves go?


Kenneth: I READ EVERYTHING FU!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHH *COUGH*

Okay so 4 attack buttons. Light, medium, heavy, strong. or PS style square, triangle, circle, X

Signatures are perform following QCF / HCB etc motions and use. Light, medium, and Heavy. Square, Triangle, Circle

EXertion Moves is the same principles but are active on the strong. QCF + x = meter burn special!!

exceed and ults are Two buttons with motions or in the case of some characters assist button with motion. ex( QCF + Square , Triangle)

Throws are either square, triangle, or circle + X that means guess breaks of wither square, triangle, or circle.



TL;DR

YOU HAVE TOO MANY SHIT FOR NOT ENOUGH CONTROLS WHICH, LOGICALLY, MEANS THAT MORE COMPLICATED MOTIONS COME INTO PLAY
The cramped control scheme (or move list?) can pose a problem in fast-paced play
The logical conclusion of motions beyond QCs DPs and 360s, imo, prove to be an unnecessary hurdle for some players.
THERE ISN'T EVEN ANY SPACE LEFT TO PUT TRAIT MOVES, wait I just realised that it might just be, say, PP KK or KP, whoops.
also just thought that maybe they're just normal specials that happen to use stamina :v
Still a valid argument for everything else, though, I think.


Kenneth: Fu! I would never allow pretzels or 360's in my game, hell the hardest motions to pull off in my opinion are the 28, 46 and 22 motions. We do have 236, 623, 214, 412, 41236 and 63214 but that's it. No 360, no double motion no KOF destroy your wrists combinations. I got too many complaints about them and was asked for a simpler control scheme.

TL;DR 2

Probably should've taken that nap before writing this, huh

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

As the artist and writer, I'll post up art as soon as I can. There is a lot to go through, so I'll post up a few characters names and see what we draw from..

Andoro - Ninja hailing from japan and national hero. He is a strong fundamental character to the story and has a solid playstyle. He falls under RUSHDOWN.

Ben - A young half Mexican boxer from California. He's a prodigy fighter and can conjure lightning on his hands. He falls under RUSHDOWN

Ruin - A hulking demon reformed into the angelic ranks. Once an enforcer of death, he has lost his soul and has thus reverted back to his old ways. He falls under GRAPPLER

Greed - A short and chubby remnant of a once powerful demon lord. She is unlike her brothers and sisters whom blindly follow her father's desire of death. She falls into ZONER

Valdez & Envy - An ancient demon lord who has defected from his purpose. He travels the world with his Remnant Envy, seeking his own treasure. This is a PUPPET Team

Lich - An imitation of the angel of death, a young woman who was swindled into taking up a role she didn't want. She falls under ZONER

 

[Ninja]

so... 4 demons and 2 normalish people.

hmmm... I'm curious about the other types of races and how they will be played in.

Ruin is like typical Grappler, big, slow, beefy moves, yeah?

Valdez and Envy seem to be the most technical so it would be best to draw up plans on that character to make sure that everything can fall into place quicker.

When I think of the word "Greed" I don't really think "Zoner or Keepaway" I think more of a gimmick type grab character. Sorta like a mix of Johnny and say... Alex. Where there is a big risk to her grabs but they have major payoff or... even a power up system where the more grabs she gets the better she becomes.

Lich being a zoner in my mind is totally fine. I think up of Testament in that case with his zoning.

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

so... 4 demons and 2 normalish people.

hmmm... I'm curious about the other types of races and how they will be played in.

Ruin is like typical Grappler, big, slow, beefy moves, yeah?

Valdez and Envy seem to be the most technical so it would be best to draw up plans on that character to make sure that everything can fall into place quicker.

When I think of the word "Greed" I don't really think "Zoner or Keepaway" I think more of a gimmick type grab character. Sorta like a mix of Johnny and say... Alex. Where there is a big risk to her grabs but they have major payoff or... even a power up system where the more grabs she gets the better she becomes.

Lich being a zoner in my mind is totally fine. I think up of Testament in that case with his zoning.

Yes and there are many more. I just choose these characters at random off the top of my head. SO, lets get started..

The way grappling works in this game, you can combo them. Meaning that you can land a grapple during hit stun as well. You cannot grab a character in block stun, nor can you grab characters who make use of THROW INVINCIBLE moves. This was done for solo play in general, as a solo grappler following suit of zangief would unfortunately get destroyed and have a low success rate... we don't want that. We want them to be just as fun as other characters in the line up.

RUIN - is indeed a character with a large frame, he has a parry that effects certain conditions. Light = High parry, Medium = low parry, Heavy = air parry, and Strong effecting all the above. Its weak to projectiles, throws, and delayed buttons. On hit it always grants a HARD KNOCKDOWN. He has a grapple making use of chains that effect a decent range in front of him. They are slow to recover but effective non the less. He also has a guess break OTG grab for combo extensions / set ups. Overall a solid character.



Valdez & Envy work with a type of PIP system, where Envy can be commanded to perform certain actions at the cost of a designated amount of PIPS. She has 3 PIPS. Her "normals" use 1 pip each. These are tools like a decent ranged anti air or semi safe link. Her "specials" cost 2 pips each and offer a good range of options for Valdez to use. 1 such being her ability to place an orb that pulls enemies closer to Valdez. Her exceeds spend 3 pips per use and have very threatening effects like releasing a sound wave that prevents the enemy from gaining exceed. She regenerates pips at 1 per second. And if she gets hit while active she remains inactive for 6 seconds or 2 timer seconds. Valdez himself has some decent moves but some are slow and situational, he relies in part on Envy to put out his maximum damage and she relies on him to stay active and helpful. If the two get separated, envy teleports back to Valdez, however, if she gets hit during the teleport she will remain inactive for 6 seconds.

Greed, while a member of the sins, created by Valdez, She isn't what you typically think when you hear greed. So her name is a little misleading, but that's intentional. In all accounts, she is a Rebel to her core and brings an odd cheerful disposition to the cast. She herself is small and not very good at fighting, so she has a "minion" who accompanies her and gives her the range game she plays. This shadowy figure whom resides in a coffin is capable of mid range pokes and grabs. Greed, can deploy orbs that counter projectiles, lay down carpets of health draining miasma, or make use of her "Greedy Pull" to place enemies where she wants them, like in range of her exceed attacks or even her ultimate. She is an oddball indeed.


Andoro isn't the ryu character, I'm sorry I made him sound like that. This Ninja is fundamental in the regards that his tool set can and does make great use of the combo system for the game. As you kind of follow the POINT, MIDDLE, ANCHOR scheme, you'll find that he fits all roles and does them well. With his special kunai throwing daggers, easy confirms, and combo extensions, he can make any team deadly. By himself he is still a deadly force, but shines best within a team.

Ben, is the only boxer in the game right now, while he is pretty straight forward he is a bit challenging to master. He has several quick stances, DUCK SLIDE - an advancing movement immune to projectiles. NEEDLE THREAD - an spinning motion that is throw invincible. THE WEAVE - A side to side movement that is high attack invincible. SWAG and SWAY - A quick back step motion invincible to air incoming and low attacks. He's a character who relies on good reads but can be played to an intimidating factor. He is also kind of show boaty so he'll taunt a lot (to his benefit) and still combo you.


Angels, Demons, Evolved(Anthromorphs), Humans, Enhanced(cybernectic humans), Remnants... its a colorful cast.

 

[Ninja]

The way grappling works in this game, you can combo them. Meaning that you can land a grapple during hit stun as well. You cannot grab a character in block stun, nor can you grab characters who make use of THROW INVINCIBLE moves. This was done for solo play in general, as a solo grappler following suit of zangief would unfortunately get destroyed and have a low success rate... we don't want that. We want them to be just as fun as other characters in the line up.

The term for that type of grapple attack being able to hit the opponent while in hit stun is called a "Hit Grab" Characters like Beowulf and Painwheel have moves like these.

RUIN - is indeed a character with a large frame, he has a parry that effects certain conditions. Light = High parry, Medium = low parry, Heavy = air parry, and Strong effecting all the above. Its weak to projectiles, throws, and delayed buttons. On hit it always grants a HARD KNOCKDOWN.

So like Jam's Parry from Guilty Gear. okay. that's an okay tool for a slow type character so they can get in on the opponent.

Greed, can deploy orbs that counter projectiles, lay down carpets of health draining miasma, or make use of her "Greedy Pull" to place enemies where she wants them, like in range of her exceed attacks or even her ultimate. She is an oddball indeed.

Ah thank you this better explains how/why she is a Zoner.

 

[Fumako]

Fu! I would never allow pretzels or 360's in my game

dude, I hate complicated motions too, but a grappler without a 360 feels wrong ya know?
just figure out a 360 detection system and bam

Greed, can deploy orbs that counter projectiles, lay down carpets of health draining miasma, or make use of her "Greedy Pull" to place enemies where she wants them, like in range of her exceed attacks or even her ultimate. She is an oddball indeed.

yooo, now I know who I'm maining
With zoners I think we should discuss how her zoning would work, maybe get into how it would affect her rushdown too (if at all). Afterwards we could rebalance their tool set after that.
From her tool set (anti-projectile orbs, health draining carpets, and a "magnet" move) I'm guessing she'd be more of a mid-range character?
Like, she doesn't want you to be in her face but she wants you to stay in that carpet, so she wants to lay it down and keep you there with nice pokes. In consequence, she doesn't seem to have any projectiles of her own so she would lose to a zoner more dedicated to full-screen dominance? Otherwise I don't see much use for these "anti-projectile" orbs unless everyone had a projectile or you gave it some other purpose besides countering projectiles. Would rather prefer that you gave it some other use~

gaaaah, I think I'm speculating too much

tl;dr
Interesting character, seems to be midrange, wants you in that carpet, nice pokes (those pokes better not have gigantic hitboxes >:c), magnet move seems great for pulling enemies back into carpet / cool converts.

Also, lich doesn't seem to be a full-screen zoner, more like a "trap" character, like what ninja said above. (Are those considered different? Never really saw Testament as a Zoner)
Introduce a fullscreen zoner or riot!

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

The term for that type of grapple attack being able to hit the opponent while in hit stun is called a "Hit Grab" Characters like Beowulf and Painwheel have moves like these.



So like Jam's Parry from Guilty Gear. okay. that's an okay tool for a slow type character so they can get in on the opponent.



Ah thank you this better explains how/why she is a Zoner.

I spaced on Lich. She is all about damage over time. Making use of her projectile game and scythe specials, she can keep the enemy pinned where she wants them. Her theme is decay. Its a ground projectile that covers a certain range and those who stand in it loss hp over time. She has a very solid pressure game and unlike Greed, she'll greatly benefit from being up in her enemies face. Her Trait is called scythe placement and with this she can place the scythe within a certain area to control jump in attempts, enemy zoning efforts or set up meaties... its truly limitless what she can do. This however does suffer from being on a short timer, drains stamina to activate it and call it back prematurely. It also leaves her without tools to keep her in your face pressure up as it forces her to play the zoning game.


Other characters we have are just as varied

 

[Fumako]

I have a feeling that, before anything else, we should have a comprehensive write-up of at least one of these characters :v

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

dude, I hate complicated motions too, but a grappler without a 360 feels wrong ya know?
just figure out a 360 detection system and bam

yooo, now I know who I'm maining
With zoners I think we should discuss how her zoning would work, maybe get into how it would affect her rushdown too (if at all). Afterwards we could rebalance their tool set after that.
From her tool set (anti-projectile orbs, health draining carpets, and a "magnet" move) I'm guessing she'd be more of a mid-range character?
Like, she doesn't want you to be in her face but she wants you to stay in that carpet, so she wants to lay it down and keep you there with nice pokes. In consequence, she doesn't seem to have any projectiles of her own so she would lose to a zoner more dedicated to full-screen dominance? Otherwise I don't see much use for these "anti-projectile" orbs unless everyone had a projectile or you gave it some other purpose besides countering projectiles. Would rather prefer that you gave it some other use~


Kenneth: Greed's projectile game is build for mid range dominance, Her carpet bomb is an actual projectile, meaning it flies across the screen like a hadouken, but on contact carpets the space the enemy occupies in miasma. Fun right? Her exceeds are where her game amps up and she can contest certain zoning tools. One such creates an orb that fires a mass of miniature projectiles at the enemy. In truth, shes not designed to win any wars, but she forces players to not want to use them against her. Her QCF move PURIFIER, is a non damaging orb that absorbs enemy projectiles. Any projectiles absorbed by the Purifier orb will grant Greed additional exceed in a lump sum. 1 projectile hit = 5 exceed points. So a beam lets say that hits 10 times, she's going to gain half a bar of exceed!

gaaaah, I think I'm speculating too much

tl;dr
Interesting character, seems to be midrange, wants you in that carpet, nice pokes (those pokes better not have gigantic hitboxes >:c), magnet move seems great for pulling enemies back into carpet / cool converts.

Also, lich doesn't seem to be a full-screen zoner, more like a "trap" character, like what ninja said above. (Are those considered different? Never really saw Testament as a Zoner)
Introduce a fullscreen zoner or riot!

I hoped someone would say that, so I put together a couple guys who can, fit the build and remain fair.

 

[Abez-the-Orphan]

I have a feeling that, before anything else, we should have a comprehensive write-up of at least one of these characters :v

...I concur on this statement. Okay, I'll choose one at random that has been finalized and post that character next.