Commentary: Requirements, Recommendations, and Rage

[dapurplesharpie]

I've been streaming ever since I joined this community, and while I'm not really an above average (or even average player), something I started to work on was commentary.

Initially, as I was new to both fighting games and Skullgirls, I looked to other (then) Skullgirls streams for inspiration and a general idea of what a stream should look and sound like. The main example I saw was Ultimate Showstopper with ElkyDori and POS Industries. I based a lot of my early streams off of their commentary and advice. I also did a lot of "shoutcasting", which is more of a League of Legends commentary type. It involves tons AND TONS of yelling, excessive amounts of hype, and just general noise.

I started asking for more and more advice about how to better my commentary and was pointed towards Ultrachen and a few others. Ultrachen specifically was very analytical. Keeping it simple at times, while still making sure to point out when something was done due to multiple reactions, thoughts, etc.

These recommendations and experiences helped me understand what made GOOD COMMENTARY versus BAD COMMENTARY, which in turn, has been shaping how I choose commentators for events and streams that I run.

I'm interested in seeing other people's ideas and thoughts on what type of commentary they are interested in hearing, so let's make this thread an open forum of sorts regarding commentary we enjoy and why. We can also use this thread to give advice current commentators and budding commentators.


TL;DR: Talk about commentary.

 

[dapurplesharpie]

I'll start it off with a few of my personal favorite Skullgirls commentators: McPeanuts and Elda Taluda

 

[mcpeanuts]

I don't have a ton to add to the discussion that was going on in the other thread, just, thanks to everyone who said they like my commentary :)

I guess I'll also say, I was impressed by Kai when I co-commentated with him at Frosty Faustings. There's a lot of subtle, tricky things about commentary that he was good at: he rarely stuttered and rarely tripped over his words, spoke at a good pace/volume, looked for spots to turn it over to me so I could add something (when doing co-commentary with someone this is super cool) etc. I think it's a fair complaint that his commentary isn't the most technical, but he does have like 4 months to work on that before Combo Breaker, and it's not like he doesn't know the game (he eliminated Gelato, who was my dark horse to make it out of that pool in losers).

 

[Kai]

Spoiler: my commentary background

My own initial experience with commentating was on streamed matches a couple of years ago. I'd host open lobbies and just talk about the matches with Elda Taluda. Then I did Saturday Night Salt, a FT7 stream where people fought for 86'd prizes and shit like that. About 250 viewers per stream, and again with Elda Taluda most times. I also commentated live Chicago streams when and where available, Including Frosty Faustings and UFGT. And all of that before I was Beowulf. After that came Combo Breaker, and another FF.

Also, I've spoken on the topic of military logistics to an assembled auditorium of top ranking Air Force brass, successfully pitched multi-million dollar building plans to a panel of 2-star generals, and directed base-wide exercises.

I think my main problem here is the incredibly narrow-minded view some people seem to be taking with regards to what commentary does. Commentary is the act of communicating to an audience (an audience that can number in the thousands, for some Skullgirls streams). Those people will include veterans, long-time casuals, new players, other-game viewers who stuck around on stream, and people just popping in for a quick peek. You have to speak to ALL of them.

The fact of the matter is that the American football game that sells millions of copies every year, that's named after a loud color commentator. And when you see Real Madrid C.F. kicks in a goal against FC Barcelona, you hear GOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL. None of this is meant to devalue technical commentary. Quite the opposite. I believe more than ever that technically solid commentary is required, but so many of you seem to be utterly dismissing showmanship and audience crafting because it's not what you're good at, or because it's not what you want.

I want the audience to have it all. They need hype, knowledge, a narrative, anecdotes, frame data, solid back-and-forth, etc. They should have it all. That's why I'm pushing for commentary pairs that can do that.

 

[dekillsage]

I want you guys to check out this video. It's the wombo combo, we've all seen it I'm pretty sure

now watch this video

These might be exaggerated examples, but commentary is not good if its only technical. That is boring, it doesn't keep new players interested. If you don't have someone who can make moments hype and exciting... you're missing out on a lot of good stuff that people will always remember... another example

I really like Kai's commentary... he brings a level of excitement most of us just can't do. He also points out basic things that new players would not see, by saying simple things like good overhead or nice reset. People watching SG for the first time do NOT see those things. He also does point out complicated ideas, but doesn't spend too much time going in depth. The other commentator can do that, and when he commentated with peanuts that's usually what happened, which is good. Good back and forth I feel... not perfect but good.

I've also mentioned this to people, but most of the time commentators don't actually know what I'm actually trying to do. The only commentators who have been able to do it have been Mike Z, Broken Loose, and McPeanuts, and peanuts has talked with me a lot about strategy and mindset. I don't like when people try to go into everything at a technical level, sometimes its as simple as "I thought this would work" or "Oh I flubbed and this ended up happening".


Commentators also need to never be negative, IMO. If a Fukua mirror fireball war is happening, you can't get bored or make it seem its not interesting. You gotta be like OH MAN
I LOOOOOVE the Fukua fireball mirror, its so interesting. And make it interesting, somehow. That's not easy lol.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that if you don't know something 100%, don't say what you think... For example, is Slide -> Monster safe? Yes, unless _______? Can you fill in the blank?
A lot of people just say its safe, which isn't actually true, and that's kinda bad because then people will always assume this and eventually I get to read all the complaints and people don't bother checking etc etc idk -_-?

If anyone needs information like that, feel free to ask or check for yourself. Or I can just check for you, but you should check for yourself too!


Also if anyone wants to know, in the SGC my favorite commentator duo's are 1)BL/Peanuts, and 2)Kai/Taluda.

 

[Cadenza]

So, if no one does not mind. Here's my tidbit that focused mainly for SG commentary

I think Kai is right in certain instances.

As you guys already know, there are many styles of commentary. from James chen, to Yipes to Kbrad, etc. The problem with what my eyes are seeing is that people want someone to "know what the fuck you are talking about" and I agree on that notion as well.

Upon reading a certain phrase from @Dolfinh I actually would like clarification or at least some viewpoint on the bolded

In most cases, you want gameplay analysis and people who speak well. It's much easier for someone like Me or McPeanuts to fix something related to energy or talking fundamentals or to spend more time on the games' mechanics to explain to people less familiar with them then it is to ask someone who is well spoken but has little to no game knowledge or support.

This can be said for certain members of the SGC, however anyone that has played the game rather extensively, placed relatively well in their pool or overall tourney should be able to talk and commentate with the game? I know that's not your point at all and what i'm saying is that necessarily someone that has no knowledge of the game or support prolly does not place well or perform well. I'm hoping clarification would help my confusion.

What I hope does not happen or ends up being the conclusion of commentary for SG is a play by play....the game is just too sporadic and you can't really go that style. you can talk about the resources players have.

I.E: "Wow player 1 has 3 bars and is bella, Player 2 might not want to call the assist so much or else he will eat diamonds." You can talk about certain match ups I.E: "taluda plays PW/Fort/Bella and dolfinh plays fortune point and c.hp and L bomber doesn't help in this matchup but we'll see how he adjusts" Offering background on players (which is relatively easy since relatively we're STILL a rather small game) would be appreciated.

Instead for commentary regarding SG I think just explaining DHC's and why players do certain things would be nice as well as explaining how chicken blocking is really effective in this game(land cancel). for instance: When dekillsage used chicken blocking against Sonicfox's Dynamo to exit out of blockstun and immediately tagged to bella and managed to save fukua in the process. a technical commentator SHOULD be there to explain what happened to some viewers that are going "the fuck was that?" This is stuff SG commentary imho should focus on. commentating the pace of the game a bit(neutral). Taking notes of what each player likes to do and add a tidbit of reasoning as to why someone would reset same side in the corner(to keep corner pressure).

The main thing with commentating is that the content and delivery has to be relatable. Relatable in a fashion that really works for all viewers at any level. If someone was to commentate for stream then you need to practice not only game knowledge but proper delivery and make sure you don't get drowned out by the other commentator which can be a bit troubling in some cases.

THERE ARE TIMES, (specifically top 8) where you would want two technical commentators and not have it rotate.

My point in TL;DR when it comes to SG i think a combination of hype with some sprinkled technical commentary for certain instances in a match is excellent. I highly recommend that both commentators know the mechanics, but the technical commentator should be the one to comment on certain habits, situations and explain further in depth on a player's decision.

Edit1: some mistakes corrected.

 

[Chip Blaster]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

 

[mcpeanuts]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

The best way to get better at anything is to practice, and the hardest part of anything is getting started. Just find a mic somewhere and hop on and be like what's good monsters roll up press some buttons in the chat if you can hear me

 

[Cadenza]

Well @Geno I would advise streaming and making a lobby session and go from there. A commentator needs to have courage about "his shit". The very worst thing that can happen is that someone goes on an SG tourney strim and and listens for 20 seconds and then mutes strim while putting spotify playlist on and changing to a different tab or what have you. You do not want that to happen.

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

Pretty much what McPeanuts said. I got into commentary on accident when I ran a League tournament in high school and realized nobody was available to commentate so I sort of just... made it up on the spot and I had fun so I kept doing it.

I've already posted my thoughts on commentary for SG in the other thread, but I guess to restate I mostly think that Commentary should be gameplay oriented with people who are well spoken. My preferred commentators for SG are BL/Peanuts (mostly those two together specifically), Taluda, and (Based on summer jam pools) Blaise/Warped.

To follow up on the videos sage posted Homemadewaffles/Phil or Phil/Alan are probably my favorite commentators for games (Melee players). I think what I really like about those is that the conversation is very much natural, they have plenty of energy, and they're always talking about the game or things related to the game (mindset, stages, etc). Player history / backgrounds is always a plus too to keep people interested during setup / button checks.

 

[Kai]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

The best way to get better at anything is to practice, and the hardest part of anything is getting started.

Well @Geno I would advise streaming and making a lobby session and go from there.

All of this. Just stream some lobbies and commentate those matches, and do it a lot.

One of the things I learned in the ring is to, "train like you want to fight," which means (for your case) that you need to get a co-commentator you think might work for you, and work on your pacing and back-and-forth, because most live commentary is paired, and you need to have trained for that.

 

[dapurplesharpie]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

Run the SG Podcast with me. 6Let bounced.

 

[Dhoppler]

I always felt like kai and taluda was the golden duo. I only mentioned the latter in the previous thread because I felt like he was being overlooked. I couldn't keep up with kai at frosty but that was more because I was spending too much time trying to figure stuff out and word it. The late night was a factor but it's still mainly because I'm a bit green. I intend to rectify that in the future.

The reason I feel like I'd pair well with broken loose is because when I watched the nec archives he would say things and I knew immediately what I would have said in the moment.

Either way, I've got to gain more experience so expect a stream soon because I don't intend to get the experience at maxout.

 

[Kai]

The reason I feel like I'd pair well with broken loose is because when I watched the nec archives he would say things and I knew immediately what I would have said in the moment.

I've actually said this in a separate offline discussion about possible commentary pairings. I agree. Based on what I know about the two of you, I think that you and BL would bring a lot to the table as a duo.

 

[Pickles]

I agree with what people are saying that you don't just want 2 technical commentators, and especially agree that technical knowledge =/= good technical commentary, SG has a lot of good players and most of them I wouldn't want to put on top 8 commentary.

But I want to apologize, or maybe it would be more accurate to say i want to clarify the context of what I said last night. I still believe that peanuts + dolfin is one of my favorite commentary duos, but my experience last night with skullgirls "hype commentary", in particular Kai's commentary, came from relatively limited knowledge; i.e seeing him on the mic at combo breaker 2015, a handful of locals, and FF. I started playing SG earlier, but I didn't really get involved in the SGC until mid-late 2014 so a lot of the community run shows like SNS and WYL were more or less finished by then. A lot of people talked about Kai + Taluda commentary being good so I looked up some old SNS and I agree that the kai/taluda duo is excellent, but it also reinforced something I mentioned last night:

Commentary should be looked at in terms of pairs of commentators, not just putting together 1 hype person and 1 technical person who want to commentate.

Other people might not agree (and I recognize this is my personal opinion) but I didn't care a lot for much of the commentary at FF, and after watching SNS I realized why. Kai has admitted this before but he has a very powerful personality that can overpower the person he's commentating with. The reason taluda + kai works so well imo is not only that Taluda doesn't get "drowned out" for lack of a better term, but also because the two are very comfortable with one another and are able to play off each other (this is something I really like about peanuts + dolfin as well).

I also recognize that as an experience SG player, what I want out of commentary might not be what EVERYONE would want, so take everything I said with that context in mind. Again, I still disagree that peanuts + dolfin is too softspoken of a duo but I understand that my likes/dislikes regarding commentary won't be shared by everyone.

tl;dr when nominating commentators nominate as a pair not as singles, and sorry to kai I hadn't seen your good shit yet.

I would like to see everyone who wants to commentate have experience with another person they would like to commentate with to show that they work well together.

 

[Chip Blaster]

Run the SG Podcast with me. 6Let bounced.

I will TOTALLY take you up on this.
I just need to iron out my work schedule a bit (IE change my availability to have the same day off each week)

 

[Kai]

Re: @Pickles post

I agree that personal synergy means a lot. My main concern is that, while Dolfin and Peanuts are a great match, and provide insightful commentary that many people can enjoy, that particular pairing does not have the minimum amount of energy I would want to give to an audience during the top 8 of our biggest tournament (either one of them could satisfactorily be paired with somebody that brought the energy up appropriately). Pools, Top 16, and Top 8 all require different things, just as season, playoffs, and Superbowl do.

You could put the exact same great catch in a season game, a playoff game, and the Superbowl, and the reaction would be different for each. In the season, they'd raise their pitch a few notches and calmly comment how good a catch that was, in the playoffs, they'll shout, "what a catch!" And during the Superbowl, they'll yell WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE CATCH! I CANNOT BELIEVE HE BROUGHT THAT BALL IN, THAT WAS TRULY ONE OF THE GREATEST CATCHES I'VE EVER SEEN, JIM!

This stuff is important.

 

[zarkingphoton]

Crossposting because every goddamn piece of tangential minutiae deserves it's own thread or sub-forum for some reason:

Can we please just be the game where both of our commentators are knowlegable about the game and neither of them are there just because "lol charisma"? What ever happened to Husband and Wife?

 

[Dhoppler]

Got a point there.

 

[Kai]

Can we please just be the game where both of our commentators are knowlegable about the game and neither of them are there just because "lol charisma"? What ever happened to Husband and Wife?

I have no idea what husband and wife is supposed to mean in this context.

 

[zarkingphoton]

Famous smash commentator duo, "Newlyweds."

 

[mcpeanuts]

Re: @Pickles post

I agree that personal synergy means a lot. My main concern is that, while Dolfin and Peanuts are a great match, and provide insightful commentary that many people can enjoy, that particular pairing does not have the minimum amount of energy I would want to give to an audience during the top 8 of our biggest tournament (either one of them could satisfactorily be paired with somebody that brought the energy up appropriately). Pools, Top 16, and Top 8 all require different things, just as season, playoffs, and Superbowl do.

You could put the exact same great catch in a season game, a playoff game, and the Superbowl, and the reaction would be different for each. In the season, they'd raise their pitch a few notches and calmly comment how good a catch that was, in the playoffs, they'll shout, "what a catch!" And during the Superbowl, they'll yell WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE CATCH! I CANNOT BELIEVE HE BROUGHT THAT BALL IN, THAT WAS TRULY ONE OF THE GREATEST CATCHES I'VE EVER SEEN, JIM!

This stuff is important.

Yeah I agree. Cloudking beating Sonic at NEC was about the most excited I can get commentating a match, I was legitimately very excited, but it doesn't come across in my commentary. Fortunately Mike Z was there too.

 

[Shadowfury333]

*snip about superbowl*

This stuff is important.

That's really interesting and useful to know, but it sounds like it's also the main point of contention. I mean, from a logical perspective the play is the same, therefore the reaction should be the same, and any exaggeration to that reaction comes off as forced and overdone.

Come to think of it, there's a lot to unpack there with core vs casual dynamics and gamer identity as intelligent people. It seems like tone and substance are getting confused, since the tone sounds like it's only to appeal to the ignorant, it's assumed the content is too.

 

[Broken Loose]

I really want to get into commentary myself, however I'm still very nervous about doing such. Mostly because I feel my voice sounds like ass.

Broken Loose's Rule #5: The hardest part of painting is picking up the brush.

Reposterino: Required viewing for commentators

Marvel vs. Capcom 2: The Movie.

So, trade secret? My favorite commentator duo is actually Dogface + MegamanDS. THAT MegamanDS.

This is game 5 of a ft3 $100 money match. Very little of this is technical commentary, but it's fine since it's just ranbats and you can do 99% color commentary during ranbats. The rest of the set is pretty good, too, but Dogface's freakout at the end has been my alarm sound for years.

It should be said to know your audience. During pools, you can be more technical. During ranbats and long sets, you can be more colorful. Normally, during grand finals, you need to be less technical than normal (or at least explain what you mean) because you're going to get more casual and incidental viewers, but since our grand finals are almost always Sonicfox vs. dekillsage I'm pretty sure we lose viewers when it comes up.

Can we please just be the game where both of our commentators are knowlegable about the game and neither of them are there just because "lol charisma"? What ever happened to Husband and Wife?

I'm actually super happy that we never have this problem with our game. This is probably the secondmost thing about the game that makes me happy. Our least knowledgeable commentators measure up with the upper third most knowledgeable commentators of other games.

 

[alexpi]

I think, especially for big events like CB, I'd like to see something along the lines of Artosis + Tasteless from SC2. It's a sort of Smart Guy + Amateur setup. The Amateur asks questions about the game and the Smart Guy answers. It's a really good way for folks who don't know the game well to learn and still provides the technical side for the more experienced players. The Amateur can double as a hype man, but his main role is to act as a pseudo teacher

 

[Broken Loose]

I think, especially for big events like CB, I'd like to see something along the lines of Artosis + Tasteless from SC2. It's a sort of Smart Guy + Amateur setup. The Amateur asks questions about the game and the Smart Guy answers. It's a really good way for folks who don't know the game well to learn and still provides the technical side for the more experienced players. The Amateur can double as a hype man, but his main role is to act as a pseudo teacher

This is perfect for a Grand Finals scenario where you have a ton of casual, new, and incidental viewers, so long as the Obi-Wan in the scenario knows what he's talking about and the Luke isn't Adam Sessler.

 

[Shadowfury333]

I think, especially for big events like CB, I'd like to see something along the lines of Artosis + Tasteless from SC2. It's a sort of Smart Guy + Amateur setup. The Amateur asks questions about the game and the Smart Guy answers.

This totally, though I also based my own commentary style initially on Tasteless. From experience, this is really hard to do well alone, and requires really good ball-passing skills when paired. This does seem like a better gauge of duo strength than just analyst & hype.

Incidentally, this is also why I'm reluctant to push hard into SG casting. I don't know how much technical knowledge I'd even need to be useful, not to mention the difference in pacing between RTS and fighting game (though my main game is pretty close to fighting game pacing, in that the action is near constant).

 

[acfan]

I'm starting to commentate myself and I'm definitely on the quieter side as I learn more and more; it's helped me amazingly as a player because I'm able to look at the technical side more.
L> hype partner

 

[Broken Loose]

Anyway, let's get this show on the road. Who wants to do commentary at CB and who wants other people to do it? Let's make a list and plan this shit out.

(I want to be on the mic; I also want Peanuts on the mic preferably with me)

 

[dapurplesharpie]

Anyway, let's get this show on the road. Who wants to do commentary at CB and who wants other people to do it? Let's make a list and plan this shit out.

(I want to be on the mic; I also want Peanuts on the mic preferably with me)

Wrong thread.

 

[Dhoppler]

I want the original golden duo. Kai and taluda. I want in on the 10v10. I need to watch archives to decide on the rest.

 

[Broken Loose]

Wrong thread.

I'M SO CONFUSED ANYMORE

 

[Dhoppler]

This thread is for discussing ideal commentary. Combo breaker is for discussing all things cb. Including commentary.

 

[dapurplesharpie]

Thank you, KPB Dhoppler.

Get your shit straight, KPB Broken_Loose. (I'm gonna make sure your shirt has the underscore.)

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Edit: Wait i just realized I'm in the wrong thread

 

[Dhoppler]

Dolfinh pls.

 

[alexpi]

He's a dolfin. I'm impressed he can type at all

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Double posting is od

 

[dapurplesharpie]

Inb4 this is new CB thread.

 

[alexpi]

Too late