Community Punch / Kick Priority Input

[skull person]

Hi.

When a character has two specials that overlap but use one uses kicks, and one uses punches, Mike decides what takes priority if both are pressed.

This is so that when you do an input with an assist macro, one move comes out over the other every time.
For example, Parasoul charge back press forward + assist gives her shot instead of egret every time.
This is really beneficial because the timing for comboing off of the shot lines up very well.

If you think that one of these should be CHANGED for the final patch of Skullgirls.
Please say which one, and why.

For example, Eliza's could be changed so that 6 > 2, 3, 6 (DP ending in 6) could still be DP instead of Summon, letting her do DP + Assist more easily to make it safe even if her input isn't 100% correct.

In the current version of the game, these are the ones that have priority over the others:

Spoiler

Squigly: P + K = Cancel so it doesn't matter.
[NO IDEA]

Big Band: Priority goes to punch, the only input this matters for is Brass / A-Train and P + K is E-Brake... Doesn't matter.
[BRASS > A-TRAIN]

Eliza: Priority goes to punch for QCB. Priority goes to kick for DP which includes the QCF, unsure if this is because QCF has priority over DP or if kick is manually chosen for DP / QCF overlap.
[SEKHMET > SPIRAL]
[SUMMON > DP]
[Edit: Sek > Servant > DP > Spiral, is the order in the script.]


Fortune: Priority goes to kick.
[FIBER > REKKA]
[EL GATO > HEAD ROLL]

Peacock: Priority goes to kick.
[GEORGE > BANG]
[TELEPORT > ITEM DROP]

Painwheel: Priority goes to punch.
[STINGER > BUER]

Filia: Priority goes to punch.
[RINGLET > PSYCH]

Cerebella: N/A.
[360 > QCB LEVEL 3 BTW]

Valentine: Priority goes to punch.
[DEAD CROSS > BYPASS]
[SCALPELS > EKG]

Parasoul: Priority goes to punch.
[NAPALM SHOT > NAPALM MEN]
[NAPALM SCOPE > NAPALM BIKES]

Double: Priority goes to kick for DP input that overlaps with QCF. Car > Catheads
[HORNET > LUGER]
[CAR > CATHEADS]

Fukua: Priority goes to punch.
[FIREBALL > DRILL]
[FIREBALL SUPER > DRILL SUPER]

Beowulf: Priority goes to punch. *Airwulf > Level 3.
[CHAIR > BLITZER]
[AIRWULF > LEVEL 3]

Robo-Fortune: Priority goes to punch.
[BEAM > DANGER]
[CANNON > MAGNET]

Some specials will pick the heaviest version if multiple strengths are used, some specials will pick the weakest version.

 

[skull person]

I'd cast a vote at Eliza's DP priority moving above summon, so that if someone ends their DP in a forward input by accident they get DP + assist rather than summon + assist ( = death).

 

[severine]

hi it would be hugely beneficial for eliza to have DP>Summons.

 

[Mike_Z]

Keep in mind that it's still up to me if I want the character to have X thing, since you can always do the other thing with assist->special. :^)

 

[hilaryyy]

Move parasoul's taunt to [2]8P

Taunt > Pillar

 

[Mike_Z]

hi it would be hugely beneficial for eliza to have DP>Summons.

(pointed out by FUKUATWERKTEAM who will forever be that)
If you do a real DP motion, you can already get DP+assist because you don't get QCT. :^)

 

[Mao]

it makes more sense to me for peacock to have item>teleport cause you have to delay the teleport for h port + assist anyway idk

 

[WarpedEcho]

Pw has some setups with buer that it would be nice to be able have kick priority with to time the buer plus assist more precisely

 

[Mike_Z]

Pw has some setups with buer that it would be nice to be able have kick priority with to time the buer plus assist more precisely

Yes but, does she currently use assist + nail at all? Or is Buer 100% preferable at all times?
@other Painwheel players

This is the kind of info I'm interested in.

Definitely agree with SoiD instead of teleport.

 

[Triblue]

I've seen nails+assist used for zoning and pressure. I think it would be more frustrating to accidentally get buer. Also, I think changing it to buer priority would get rid of a stinger cancel tech.

 

[joshb911]

What about for Fukua drill having priority over fireball. I'd rather wake up with assist plus drill then assist + fireball. I also know of really dirty setups with assist + drill Kara setups which would be better then the current Kara fireball setups IMO

 

[skull person]

I've seen nails+assist used for zoning and pressure. I think it would be more frustrating to accidentally get buer. Also, I think changing it to buer priority would get rid of a stinger cancel tech.

As long as Flight > Buer stays then Stinger cancels shouldn't change.

 

[Mike_Z]

changing it to buer priority would get rid of a stinger cancel tech.

This is true, you'd have to press the buttons separately.

As long as Flight > Buer stays then Stinger cancels shouldn't change.

It's Flight < Stinger that's important, but also Buer < Stinger.
QCB, QCT+P+K -> Stinger~Fly, because Stinger > all and Fly is cancellable from it. If Buer were > Stinger, then that motion would just be Buer by itself, and you'd have to do QCB,QCT+P~K.
So, PW players! ...?

What about for Fukua drill having priority over fireball. I'd rather wake up with assist plus drill then assist + fireball. I also know of really dirty setups with assist + drill Kara setups which would be better then the current Kara fireball setups IMO

Nope. My basic rule is "as long as it doesn't add a new DP+assist, I'm open to whatever." And that does.

 

[BlueFeena]

I'm not sure what my input is worth being a low-intermediate, but as an Eliza main I'd honestly prefer if she were left alone. Maybe because I'm not a team user I don't fully appreciate the scenario that Liam is describing -- that's likely true -- but the only priority issue I've had with Eliza is downbacking -> forward + [Throw] resulting in a throne call. Honestly, my answer to that problem has always been, "Don't screw up your inputs BlueFeena."

Being dead serious here, my concern with altering her input priority is whether or not behavioral or playstyle changes will be required to deal with the new button priority. Once again, I'm probably not the best person to consult on this as I have nowhere near the level of expertise that Liam does, but I'd rather just deal with her button priority that have it changed.

 

[Mike_Z]

but the only priority issue I've had with Eliza is downbacking -> forward + [Throw] resulting in a throne call. Honestly, my answer to that problem has always been, "Don't screw up your inputs BlueFeena."

Actually I can fix that so throw input > all specials...I don't know if I want to, but I can. Parasoul has it because charge moves mess that up and can't be gotten around like not inputting D,DF,F.

Being dead serious here, my concern with altering her input priority is whether or not behavioral or playstyle changes will be required to deal with the new button priority. Once again, I'm probably not the best person to consult on this as I have nowhere near the level of expertise that Liam does, but I'd rather just deal with her button priority that have it changed.

The only thing that can change for Eliza is Spiral vs Sekhmet, since you can already choose DP+assist or servant+assist by doing a real DP motion that doesn't end in Towards.

 

[WarpedEcho]

I would prefer having to plink the p~k than pressing both at the same time. Just as easy imo, and this gives you buer plus assist in neutral as well as crossup setups becoming easier

 

[WarpedEcho]

sorry for the double post, but is there a time limit to make this decision. I would like to go home to test p+k vs p~k and then give my input

 

[Mike_Z]

I would prefer having to plink the p~k than pressing both at the same time. Just as easy imo

It's not just as easy, for example you can't set a macro to plink.
Nor is it as fast, it's always at least 1f slower, and in the case of this particular tech it's always at least 2f slower...because as it is now you get Stinger->Fly on the same frame so you end up with just the first frame of Fly, whereas with plinking you'd have to see a frame of Stinger, then get Fly, which is a total of 2f slower.

 

[WarpedEcho]

this is what I was worried about. The thing is, almost no pw players use it, myself included, but that can always change. Having true buer plus assist would be nice, but maybe not as nice as (I'm guessing the math here) a 17f overhead option (1f stinger + 8f fly startup + 8f jlp?)

 

[Triblue]

I'm pretty sure special/air fly startup is 10f. Also, Mike said that stinger and fly happen on the same frame so it would be 10f of fly startup and 8f of j.lp startup.

I'm for nails having priority over buer.

 

[BlueFeena]

The only thing that can change for Eliza is Spiral vs Sekhmet, since you can already choose DP+assist or servant+assist by doing a real DP motion that doesn't end in Towards.

Okay; it took me a few minutes to understand the scenarios you and Liam were describing.

Making the change the Liam suggested would greatly bolster Eliza's defense; as you described, whether it's [Assist] + [DP] or [Assist] + [Servant] is dependent on how lazy the inputs are, but it's a whole 'nother can of worms when it comes to mashing and Eliza's defense. As you can see right here, mashing DP + Assist gives Eliza a servant call, which really doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things. I do not know how you planned Eliza's defense to work, but the suggestion Liam is posing would allow Eliza to mash DP + Assist and get something.... scary. Beat Extend DP? Napalm Pillar DP? A-Train DP? Zoning DP? Beat Extend DP alone would protect Eliza from crossover baits and like, you know, everything.

As an Eliza player, I'm certainly not going to complain about anything that boosts Eliza's defense. My point is to simply be mindful of the changes. I will be content either way.

As far as Spiral / Sekhmet priority goes, I recommend leaving that alone. Assist + Sekhmet is a nice tool in her arsenal. It should also give Eliza the option of Tiger Knee Sekhmet + Assist; I only managed to get it to work once but I think but the option is there.

 

[skull person]

this is what I was worried about. The thing is, almost no pw players use it, myself included, but that can always change. Having true buer plus assist would be nice, but maybe not as nice as (I'm guessing the math here) a 17f overhead option (1f stinger + 8f fly startup + 8f jlp?)

Its 18 frames startup I believe for Stinger Flight > 6LP which is her fastest overhead.

http://skullheart.com/index.php?threads/all-iad-similar-overhead-moves-speeds.8274

There's no frames of stinger start up she goes straight into stinger flight because stinger and flight are run on the same frame.

It's probably best to leave her overhead as fast as possible for the future of Painwheel.

 

[acfan]

Yes but, does she currently use assist + nail at all? Or is Buer 100% preferable at all times?
@other Painwheel players

This is the kind of info I'm interested in.

Definitely agree with SoiD instead of teleport.

The only person I know who consistently uses nails + assist is Taluda with H nails and copter in neutral. (I try to with M bomber but usually forget.)
I'd definitely like to try QCB nails just to see what I could do with the priority changes though.

 

[WarpedEcho]

The only thing it would change would be easier stinger cancels, which would be nice, but I talked to Mike about it and it doesn't really seem to be on the table. The priority for the sake of character potential should stay the same. You can still do buer crossup setups, its just that their input for doing it are a little more difficult because assists have to be called directly before the buer instead of at the same time.

 

[severine]

(pointed out by FUKUATWERKTEAM who will forever be that)
If you do a real DP motion, you can already get DP+assist because you don't get QCT. :^)

i do know that much. i was just seeing if i could get it to work with proximity guard OS :))))))))

 

[WarpedEcho]

I would like to reopen this discussion now that stinger cancels are gone. I would like to try the assist priority on buers @Mike_Z @Elda Taluda

 

[JDbbx]

Posting this here since the beta changes thread is way too busy:

Hello I've been without internet for a bit so I haven't commented on this before but I very much dislike K > P priority for Val

sHP/sHK (+ assist) xx Bypass is easily time-able but sHP/sHK QCF HP+MK (dead cross + assist) is a good way of keeping safe at the end of blockstrings.

Essentially it feels terrible.

I feel that bypass priority is just gonna get me thrown 9 times out of 10 since the whole point of val's standing heavies is to use the assist and shuriken to stay safe/dash up confirm. Some assists need bypass to confirm, granted, but it's easily time-able.

I'd argue actually that this nerfs sHP's utility in general since in cMK sHP xx QCF MP+HK you use Dead Cross to stay safe while keeping pressure with cMK (frametrap) sHP (frametrap) Dead Cross (frametrap) assist (frametrap) then dash in for a mixup or confirm depending on whether it hit or not.

Those who use sHK(2) over sHP will probably disagree since they have time to hitconfirm into either sHK assist + Bypass or blockconfirm (!) into sHK dead cross.

The problem is mostly for sHP users. sHP is incredibly useful for dodging DP assists, baiting PBGCs, delaying pressure and many more things. Its downside is that you have very little time to figure out whether or not it hit. Trying to visually hitconfirm sHP into MK bypass is tight as all hell. sHP into Dead Cross is fine since it'll most likely be very safe anyway.

Being able to call assist as late as possible during sHP assist + shuriken is important, too. Many assists won't give you time for a dash-up confirm if you call the assist too early.

All in all Bypass > Dead Cross priority kinda messes up most of my neutral game, though I understand why sHK(2) users would want it.

R.I.P. sHP :(



EDIT: the assist I use for sHP xx [dead cross + assist] is H LnL, for reference.

Any thoughts, val players

I still have extremely limited access to the internet at the moment but I'd hate myself if K>P made it to retail without me at least trying to prevent it

 

[gllt]

I really hate bypass > shuriken. I want shuriken > bypass back.

 

[Izzmo]

I think Shuriken is more useful more of the time because of basically the reasons you listed. P>K is the way to go imo.

 

[Mwisk]

I would like to say that I really think Dead Cross > Bypass is better for Valentine and more useful as a tool overall.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Hello I've been without internet for a bit so I haven't commented on this before but I very much dislike K > P priority for Val

I really hate bypass > shuriken. I want shuriken > bypass back.

I think Shuriken is more useful more of the time because of basically the reasons you listed. P>K is the way to go imo.

I would like to say that I really think Dead Cross > Bypass is better for Valentine and more useful as a tool overall.

Valentine
- K > P special move priority: QCT+P+K = Savage Bypass now, instead of Dead Cross. (NEW part is oops, I had only changed it for the ground versions. :^P Air Savage Bypass motion priority is now higher than air Dead Cross. Thanks Datagram)

...

@Mike_Z

 

[Datagram]

Seems like pro-Dead-Cross people are mostly interested in ground Dead Cross + assist for blockstrings, whereas I'm mostly interested in air Bypass + assist for mixups. I doubt Mike would do this since it's inconsistent, but I wonder if both sides could be satisfied by having the move priority be different for ground and air specials.

To elaborate more on my reasons for preferring Bypass over Dead Cross, the change in timing makes a big difference when trying to convert off of things like fullscreen H air Bypass + Theonite Beam.

Oh, and don't get angry with Mike on this. I'm the one that recommended the change, and the one who pointed out he hadn't fully implemented it. From the players that I had surveyed, everyone either had no preference or preferred bypass having priority. Looks like I picked a pretty poor sample (notably, I didn't ask any non-US Vals ._.).

 

[Zidiane]

As much as I see why people want shuriken>bypass on the ground, I don't really see if for the air. It seems like the more useful tool is bypass in the air, for the reason Datagram said. Why is air bypass>shuriken not desirable? Everyone in the beta thread just said "ahhh i don't like it".

 

[JDbbx]

Seems like pro-Dead-Cross people are mostly interested in ground Dead Cross + assist for blockstrings, whereas I'm mostly interested in air Bypass + assist for mixups. I doubt Mike would do this since it's inconsistent, but I wonder if both sides could be satisfied by having the move priority be different for ground and air specials.

I'd... be fine with this I think. Can't super jump shuriken+assist anyway. I don't know if Mike will like it though

As much as I see why people want shuriken>bypass on the ground, I don't really see if for the air. It seems like the more useful tool is bypass in the air, for the reason Datagram said. Why is air bypass>shuriken not desirable? Everyone in the beta thread just said "ahhh i don't like it".

When I said "aaaah this is even worse" it was mostly because I was hoping to read "valentine priority reverted to P>K" and not "ok K>P now fully implemented". I'm not really against air bypass over air shuriken

 

[Judas]

As much as I see why people want shuriken>bypass on the ground, I don't really see if for the air. It seems like the more useful tool is bypass in the air, for the reason Datagram said. Why is air bypass>shuriken not desirable? Everyone in the beta thread just said "ahhh i don't like it".

I dont see much of a reason to do Bypass > Shuriken since l bypass is -62 on whiff and -17 on block. With a blockstring it would have been -3...I feel like shuriken would be better because neutral play and its safer to do in a blockstring? Unless they give bypass a frame of invincibility or something (which i think they wont because that sounds bullshit) I'm not sure lmao

 

[fenster]

since l bypass is -62 on whiff and -17 on block. With a blockstring it would have been -3...I feel like shuriken would be better because neutral play and its safer to do in a blockstring?

Ground Dead Cross is -9 on block, and not safe in a Ground Blockstring.

Ground L Bypass is -4 on block, and safe in a Ground Blockstring (barring a couple of supers, not counting pbgc etc). Sometimes from a distance you can make it -3.

 

[Judas]

Oh, Alright. I was looking at it in training mode (must have done something wrong). Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[JDbbx]

Ground Dead Cross is -9 on block, and not safe in a Ground Blockstring.

Ground L Bypass is -4 on block, and safe in a Ground Blockstring (barring a couple of supers, not counting pbgc etc). Sometimes from a distance you can make it -3.

point blank yes

at a distance (sHP range) ground dead cross is safe, L bypass whiffs and M bypass leaves you mega negative

 

[Sinclair]

point blank yes

at a distance (sHP range) ground dead cross is safe, L bypass whiffs and M bypass leaves you mega negative

Wasn't it a thing that bypass is mega bad (on block or whiff )and you could always get punished for it

 

[Lex]

Wasn't it a thing that bypass is mega bad (on block or whiff )and you could always get punished for it

As Fenster said, ground L bypass is safe at -4 (though some supers can punish it). However, because of how short its range is, it will usually whiff making it hella unsafe. All the other bypasses (ground + air) are super unsafe on both whiff and block.

Seems like pro-Dead-Cross people are mostly interested in ground Dead Cross + assist for blockstrings, whereas I'm mostly interested in air Bypass + assist for mixups. I doubt Mike would do this since it's inconsistent, but I wonder if both sides could be satisfied by having the move priority be different for ground and air specials.

To elaborate more on my reasons for preferring Bypass over Dead Cross, the change in timing makes a big difference when trying to convert off of things like fullscreen H air Bypass + Theonite Beam.

If Mike was willing to have different priorities for air and ground then I guess I'd be fine with air having K>P and ground having P>K. In the scenario that he wants it to be the same for both the air and ground, I definitely think that the priority should be given to P. Using bypass + assist for cross-ups seems pretty gimmicky and unsafe whereas the uses for grounded shuriken + assist are much more important.