Considering Skullgirls but..

[BlueXIII]

I have a few inquiries about the game that I'd like to get answers for before I decide whether to pick it up or not.

- How dominant are resets in this game in general? I always hear how they are prevalent parts of the game and how the entire game is essentially built around them, and that they are very strong. I don't really like the sound of that because it makes it seem as though every offensive exchange, when a player lands a hit, it essentially becomes a heavily skewed guessing game for the disadvantageous player, where they either guess right between several different possible mixup options or get put into another combo/reset. The person in the advantageous position seems to not be risking very much during these exchanges either, since having their reset defended against doesn't seem like it puts them in a particularly unsafe position and as such doesn't carry much risk. Basically, I don't the idea of resets being that powerful, so I'd like to know how on the money I am with this observation.

- What's pressure and mixup like in this game? I'd just like an idea on how offense is in this game in general, and I guess by that extension how strong/weak defensive options are as well. Sorry if this question isn't phrased very well.

- How strong/weak is okizeme? Really curious as to how okizeme generally functions in Skullgirls.

- How's neutral? Probably the weakest of all of my inquires, but if someone could possibly give some general insight on what neutral is like in this game I'd appreciate it. I know this is probably a really vague question.

Finally, for the record, I'm coming from a place of ignorance and a lot of preconceived notions built from watching the game here and there from an outsiders perspective. I think it'd be a shame to not give this game a chance without at least getting some insight from people who actually play it, especially since there are a lot of things I do like about the game. Just saying in case anyone takes this as me trying to attack the game or something loll.

 

[Sotherius]

I don't know how to answer really, since i'm a beginner myself, but while no one answers, i figured i should show some matches from good people so you can have some idea.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Meow-Professor]

I can't answer some of this because it is a bit vague, but I'll help where I can.
Resets are fairly dominate in Skullgirls. If you predict or react to their reset, you can't punish them in a lot of situations, but you can pushblock them to put some distance between you and your opponent.
If you know resets and your opponent doesn't, you're going to have a large advantage, basically.
Ot isn't like you can be put in an endless reset loop, though. There's a mechanic in place called Undizzy, or Drama, which limits how long you can be in a combo for, on top of the Infinite Prevention System.
Okizeme isn't as important as in other games. I'd almost equate resets to how important okizeme is in other games, very roughly. It's a bit weak here, in my experience with it.

The mixup game is pretty heavy. A lot of mixup options are safe, unlike other games, but that doesn't mean defense is bad. Pressure is also very heavy, and if you don't do much, you'll spend a lot of time blocking.
For defense, you've got pushblocking, similar to MVC3's Advancing Guard. Pushblocking pushes your opponent away about a third of the screen away, and if properly used, with put you out of pressure. This is really what defense revolves around, on top of the basic reversals, with a lot to learn about it, with mechanics like Pushblock Guard Cancel, which you can use to punish where you usually couldn't, and Absolute Guard, to prevent you from being mixed up in tough situations.
Basically, the mixup game and pressure are both very strong, but so is defense.

I'd recomend this game to anyone, really. There are a lot of mechanics in place to make it a very unique fighting game.

 

[Daemyx]

Resets are really prevalent yes, but I think you got the wrong idea. If you got a hit to begin with you won at the neutral phase and therefore should be rewarded with an advantage. When the attacker goes for a reset he is risking this advantage. He is trading guaranteed damage for a higher potential damage. If the defendant blocks/reversals out of it the attacker loses everything: the damage he could have gotten and the offensive itself. Heek if you get DP'ed or supered out of your reset the roles are reversed and now you get the short end of the stick.
EDIT:
TL;DR: Resetting your opponent is not free, there is risk/reward involved in it.

 

[Dime]

I have a few inquiries about the game that I'd like to get answers for before I decide whether to pick it up or not.

- How dominant are resets in this game in general? I always hear how they are prevalent parts of the game and how the entire game is essentially built around them, and that they are very strong. I don't really like the sound of that because it makes it seem as though every offensive exchange, when a player lands a hit, it essentially becomes a heavily skewed guessing game for the disadvantageous player, where they either guess right between several different possible mixup options or get put into another combo/reset. The person in the advantageous position seems to not be risking very much during these exchanges either, since having their reset defended against doesn't seem like it puts them in a particularly unsafe position and as such doesn't carry much risk. Basically, I don't the idea of resets being that powerful, so I'd like to know how on the money I am with this observation.

- What's pressure and mixup like in this game? I'd just like an idea on how offense is in this game in general, and I guess by that extension how strong/weak defensive options are as well. Sorry if this question isn't phrased very well.

- How strong/weak is okizeme? Really curious as to how okizeme generally functions in Skullgirls.

- How's neutral? Probably the weakest of all of my inquires, but if someone could possibly give some general insight on what neutral is like in this game I'd appreciate it. I know this is probably a really vague question.

Finally, for the record, I'm coming from a place of ignorance and a lot of preconceived notions built from watching the game here and there from an outsiders perspective. I think it'd be a shame to not give this game a chance without at least getting some insight from people who actually play it, especially since there are a lot of things I do like about the game. Just saying in case anyone takes this as me trying to attack the game or something loll.

Resets are HIGHLY dominant for the reasons you stated. However, to limit their effectiveness, mike put a system in place called undizzy. When you combo someone you give them more and more undizzy. If you reset at max undizzy, then your opponents undizzy DOESNT reset. It will however start to decay quickly. So basically if your opponent resets you with a super fast reset at full undizzy, they get a much shorter second combo. And from there they need to reset again into another much shorter combo etc etc.

There are many ways this can play out since the undizzy system itself is controllable but the player doing the combo. They can do a very short first combo then reset into into a long max undizzy combo, or they can do a long max undizzy combo first then reset into a short undizzy combo. But they cannot do:

Long max undizzy combo into reset>long max undizzy combo into reset.

So basically, reset strength is kept in check by undizzy since undizzy doesn't reset instantly unlike damage scaling.

Neutral varies from character to character.
But an extremely simplified version of how to play neutral goes something like:

Don't allow your opponent to put you into blockstun (or hitstun), try your best to put your opponent into blockstun (or hitstun)


This is because once you block something any kind of significant, your opponent can generally do an unseeable mixup on you, many times these mix ups will be safe if the opponent uses an assist to cover themselves.

Pressure in this game however is less relentless in general than in other air dash games. This is because there is a mechanic called pushblock that allows you to push your aggressor away and give you breathing room
That pushblock mechanic though also allows 2 VERY strong types of defense:

Pbag (pushblock autoguard) where you pushblock then switch your block from low to high or high to low and once your blocking has switched you become COMPLETELY INVULNERABLE to all throws, highs, lows and crossups for the rest of the pushblock duration. This isn't an easy skill to use, and the invulnerability is still predicated on you blocking correctly at first since you have to block in order to pushblock. Also, though it varies for the move you pushblock during, your invulnerable time doesn't last long at all. Usually only about 20-30 frames or so. After that you will have to block correctly agai, at which point you can use another pbag should you so desire.

The other mechanic that limits the offense via pushblock is known as pbgc (pushblock guard cancel) what basically happens is you pushblock then time a move to end at the end of your pushblock animation. At that point all your blockstun will be canceled and you will be able to perform an action no matter what. So this is VERY good combined with reversal attacks and pbag:

Your opponent attacks you and calls a multihit lockdown assist, then tries to go for a high/low unseeable mixup while you are blocking. You pushblock his assist and then autoguard the high low mixup, then you cancel your pushblocks last frames into an invincible reversal and you end up hitting both your opponents point character AND his assist.

This is very powerful and is so powerful that some people will automatically stop attacking you once they see you go into a pushblock animation, for fear of your pbgc reversal.

There's more to it than that, but yeah, this game is offensive but once you learn it, it isn't stiflingly so. In fact, since one of the main mantras of the game is to not let your opponent make contact, Games can sometimes take on very defensive feels even when played by two generally aggressive characters.

 

[Mike_Z]

I have a few inquiries about the game that I'd like to get answers for before I decide whether to pick it up or not.

Dunno whether any of this will mean you like the game, but it plays how it plays so I might as well describe it.

- How dominant are resets in this game in general?

Resets are extremely useful, moreso than in just about any game except MvC2. However, the way Undizzy works basically forces there to be some neutral played even after a series of resets or the death of a character, because if you don't give the opponent any breathing room they will be able to burst even if you are constantly resetting them. (Thence comes the if-you-burst-bait-it-means-intentionally-letting-them-escape part, which also means they get breathing room.)
For example: http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz/v/7934607?t=8h35m00s

- What's pressure and mixup like in this game?

Defensive options are VERY strong in SG, just not defensive OS's. You have pushblock, then you have Absolute Guard (the ability during pushblock to block both high and low at the same time); you have Pushblock Guard Cancel which means any blockstring longer than 25f can be interrupted by a skilled defender even if there is no gap in it; the game systems completely prevent unblockables, there are no infinites, there are relatively few same-ratio 100% combos and all of them cost large amounts of meter, and there are relatively few hard knockdowns. In general it takes 3-4 fully optimized touches to lose a character on a team.
There are bursts given based on both the content of a combo and the length...however, since bursting is done by pressing any button, giving the opponent a burst is an effective anti-mashing strategy, so mashing during combos will quickly get you killed. This means defense is more patient than panicky.

Pressure and mixup are similarly rewarded by game systems: There is no crouch-teching, so low/throw is a viable mixup in all cases, and there is a unique thing in Skullgirls where if you are holding up-back and the opponent does a ground attack you will not jump even if their ground attack has 60f startup. So autopilot up-back, which is an effective tactic in other games with air defense, is much less effective in SG.

Since there are no air techs - characters just exit hitstun and can immediately move or block - resets can happen at any point. Defense is heavily rewarded at neutral, but offense is rewarded with powerful reset options once you've landed a hit. Poor panicky defense is also somewhat actively punished: Successfully baiting a burst gives you a counterhit, counterhits give large rewards, and double-snaps allow you to lose an entire character if you make the worst-of-the-worst mistake and get both the point and an assist hit near the corner.

- How strong/weak is okizeme?

Like I said, there are relatively few hard knockdowns, so traditional safejump/oki pressure is not as common as in many other games. It is present for those characters that have hard knockdowns, but in general okizeme situations consist of tech punishes/burst baits/incoming mixup, and you would choose to go for a reset rather than a knockdown in most cases.

I greatly prefer this, because it means you have to constantly be thinking, and the relative benefit of going into training mode and practicing safejump OSs (which require only execution, rather than thought) is minimized.

- How's neutral? Probably the weakest of all of my inquires, but if someone could possibly give some general insight on what neutral is like in this game I'd appreciate it. I know this is probably a really vague question.

Watch matches.
Runaway and zoning can be very effective depending on your choice.
http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz/v/7934607?t=9h09m50s

In fact, just watch the entire top 8 from Evo2015
http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz/v/7934607?t=8h11m27s
as well as the matches from Combo Breaker posted above.

tl;dr
You must always be thinking during a Skullgirls match, there is basically no down time. There's an answer for every situation, but you must react quickly. Some people dislike this.
One thing to note about Skullgirls is that if there is a skill gap between two people, it matters a lot. It's entirely possible for someone better than you to completely stomp you, and no easy comeback mechanics exist. If someone is the type of person for whom losing badly is discouraging rather than igniting the desire to improve, Skullgirls may be difficult for them to stick with.

 

[Dagwood]

You play blazblue right? I recognize that tag, i think i've played you.

anyways, No, Resets aren't broken like some people think. It's not just "Land a hit and reset them until dead" It was like that back in Vanilla/SDE but it's not anymore because of undizzy and other changes.

Resets are inherently risky and they depend on matchups, and conditioning/mindgames.
Offense in this game is easier to deal with than Blazblue or GG offense imo. Most overheads in this game aren't extremely fast, Grabs Heavily scale damage, Undizzy builds up, you can Pushblock, etc.

I also really love the neutral in this game. Depends on the matchups but i think over all it's a really strong zoning/spacing game. Especially since the latest preblock change, It feels a lot more marvel-ish.

 

[BlueXIII]

I'm glad to hear that offensive and defensive options are strong in this game. I was aware of there being a pushblock, but I wasn't aware that there were other "variations" of it nor of their nuances.

The strength of resets was my easily my biggest discrepancy, but the Undizzy system sounds like a really interesting manner of (in a way) mitigating their overall strength. I can also see how you can consider it a "reward" for winning at neutral. I feel a little less put off by the concept of them in this game as of right now, in a matter of speaking.

The lack of, or rather, the "eccentric" - I guess - way that okizeme functions in this game is probably going to be pretty jarring for me (particularly less focus on hard knockdowns in general) but I'm sure I'll get over it.

The biggest thing remaining for me at this point, which will likely dictate whether I stick with the game or not, is how I end up feeling about neutral overall as I play the game. But I will be playing the game. I couldn't have asked for better responses, so thank you. This information has given me a renewed perspective on the game, so to speak, and I don't have to agonize over making a decision anymore loll.

TL;DR Will play, many thanks

 

[BlueXIII]

You play blazblue right? I recognize that tag, i think i've played you.

If you played a shitty Ragna with Ichigo colors, it was probably me. (':

But yeah, that was the misconception of resets I originally had. I knew that they were strong, but I thought they were even stronger than they actually are. And hopefully I end up feeling the same way about neutral as I play. I already like this game on the merits of it's artistic merits and character design, so if I can like it as a fighting game as well I'll be content and I won't have to agonize over whether or not to pick it up every few months.

 

[RemiKz]

The lack of, or rather, the "eccentric" - I guess - way that okizeme functions in this game is probably going to be pretty jarring for me (particularly less focus on hard knockdowns in general) but I'm sure I'll get over it.

There's still a good amount of traditional okizeme depending on the characters you play. Characters like Eliza, Beowulf and Big Band have pretty easy access to untechable knockdowns that most characters don't get as easily.

Ex:

 

[skull person]

The lack of, or rather, the "eccentric" - I guess - way that okizeme functions in this game is probably going to be pretty jarring for me (particularly less focus on hard knockdowns in general) but I'm sure I'll get over it.

If you really like Hard Knock Downs you can set up Pseudo ones from burst baits on certain moves that slam the opponent into the ground.
You can tech left or right after hitting the ground by pressing a direction and a button, but if that move that last hit you also set off the Infinite Prevention System or Undizzy, then teching will result in a burst bait.

This forces you to slowly wake up without moving and lets the opponent set up Oki.

 

[Kai]

It's 75% off on green man gaming, right now. Just buy it and find out.