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Double Burst Baits

ClarenceMage

ClarenceMage

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Valentine Painwheel Big Band

it's an actual 50/50 this time

also if they don't burst you can do a bazillion different resets

use j.HP on bella since j.LK whiffs
 
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Dats godlike son. :)

(But its best to eat the throw... Those throw combos give stupid meter) but it is at the end of the day still a 50/50. Its just that the opposing player can make a call to trade in his character for super amounts of meter... Cause throw combos give stupid meter to the opponent.
 
Burst baits with jump back lk are not 100% true baits, if you wait till after the third hit the j.lk will pull them close enough to burst you away. This is still a great mash bait though.
 
winnie said:
Burst baits with jump back lk are not 100% true baits, if you wait till after the third hit the j.lk will pull them close enough to burst you away. This is still a great mash bait though.


But if you are waiting for the third hit arent you allowing the throw tech timing to pass?

Which would essentially make this a true 50/50...
 
Dime_x said:
if you are waiting for the third hit

Cancelling the j.lk into a j.hp before the third hit is an alternative here, or there aren't benefits for doing it at all?
 
Dime_x said:
Dats godlike son. :)

(But its best to eat the throw... Those throw combos give stupid meter) but it is at the end of the day still a 50/50. Its just that the opposing player can make a call to trade in his character for super amounts of meter... Cause throw combos give stupid meter to the opponent.
The important thing is that it loops into itself, making you reallllly not want to press buttons opening you up for more resets further down the road. If you burst, you die.

Also, I think it is legitimate even using j.LK, because as Dime said, you would have missed the throw tech window if you delay that long.
 

You can do it midscreen, too.
 
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winnie said:
Burst baits with jump back lk are not 100% true baits, if you wait till after the third hit the j.lk will pull them close enough to burst you away. This is still a great mash bait though.

In your experience are people mashing air supers that close to undizzy?
 
at max undizzy most people either watch for an unsafe burst bait or just wait not many people will mash unless they know they can.
 
winnie said:
at max undizzy most people either watch for an unsafe burst bait or just wait not many people will mash unless they know they can.

Yeah, it's generally been my experience that people will mash early to mid combo but will stop/watch for sparks towards the end of a full undizzy combo.

I'm kind of leaning towards mid-combo IPS triggers as the best way to mess with people for mashing.
 
hlvn said:
In your experience are people mashing air supers that close to undizzy?

The deal with that setup isn't that I think they're mashing super, it's that I have conditioned them to expect air throw, so they are pressing Throw to tech the air throw. They press buttons, they burst.
 
hlvn said:
Yeah, it's generally been my experience that people will mash early to mid combo but will stop/watch for sparks towards the end of a full undizzy combo.

I'm kind of leaning towards mid-combo IPS triggers as the best way to mess with people for mashing.
This isn't about just catching them mashing, it is a 50/50 between throw and burst bait. If they don't throw tech at some point they will die to max dizzy throw setups.
 
Unfortunately there's a bug that Mike likes where a meaty first frame airthrow reset doesn't refresh your assist lockout. You can only count on getting one air throw reset loop where you can throw in a big damage assist hit like HP LnL unless you intentionally give them some free frames, which loosens up the burst bait 50/50.
 
You don't need an assist at all as long as you can set up the same situation again.
 
Just mentioning it because it really ups the damage of those little max undizzy airthrow combos to get HP brass or HP LnL or whatever in there as one of the less scaled hits, it goes from "I can wait out three airthrow loops before bothering to try to tech" to "After one loop I'm gonna die if I pick the wrong escape either way".
 
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I'm going to assume this was common knowledge and that I'm only just now finding this because this is the first time i've actually messed around in the lab with a character that wasn't squigly.

You can do it without jumping back on taller characters (seems to work fine on the hairtwins + fortune) which would make it a little more ambiguous.
 

2015 Edit: This no longer works because air attacks(bursts counted apparently) no longer cause gounded preblock in beta(will be in retail once Beowulf is released), so you can't cancel grounded preblock into tag anymore. I'm sad this tech no longer works because it's my tech, but I'm glad that it no longer works because it would make anyone with Double on their team a burst bait god.

This is just slightly fucking ridiculous. Universal tech that lets you OS a raw tag into a burst bait that uses a launcher. Air throw/launcher OS 50/50 here we come.

@Mike_Z Would like you to have a look at this since I think it might be bordering on busted.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
@Mike_Z Would like you to have a look at this since I think it might be bordering on busted.
It's not that busted, considering they get out for free if they don't burst, like any other bait...and if they burst just slightly later you'll already be airborne and unable to tag...
I might not even class this as "good". The ones that make her tag cause undizzy and have you burst in the middle are good. :^P

"Retarded" is not an acceptable slur. You have been warned.
 
Mike_Z said:
if they burst just slightly later you'll already be airborne and unable to tag...

That's where the air throw mixup comes in. You cannot defend against both air throw and this burst bait at the same time, since the tech window and the burst-just-slightly-later window do not overlap.


First pass: No buttons
Second pass: Press button at burst-just-slightly-later window
Third pass: Burst on first hit, get punished
Fourth pass: Burst on second hit, get punished, recieve post-burst bait mixup
Fifth pass: Air throw. You cannot tech this air throw within the same window as the burst-just-slightly-later window. You must eat this mixup.

Can't figure out a way to show in video that the window doesn't overlap.

Mike_Z said:
I might not even class this as "good". The ones that make her tag cause undizzy and have you burst in the middle are good. :^P

Are you joking?
 
Mike_Z said:
It's not that busted, considering they get out for free if they don't burst, like any other bait...and if they burst just slightly later you'll already be airborne and unable to tag...
I might not even class this as "good". The ones that make her tag cause undizzy and have you burst in the middle are good. :^P

"Retarded" is not an acceptable slur. You have been warned.



Mike being mike... The ones that cause dizzy on the tag are complete gimmicks since you can burst the second hit for free and double cant do anything about that except get hit by the burst.

What cm has here (and he didnt upload the proper version, but even this version is "good") is a hitbox option select on a character that can airdash back in if the burst didnt get taken. This allows filia to st.hp and do upback plus tag. Or an airthrow.


If you dont take the bait, filia will do a jump back j.hp that will make the burst wiff and she can punish with airdash in j.hp. If you burst at anytime from the launcher you get tag combod.



There are 3 ways to fail and only one way to win. And "winning" equals teching the airthrow. Or blocking filia airdash back in after she does the j.hp.
 
ClarenceMage said:
That's where the air throw mixup comes in. You cannot defend against both air throw and this burst bait at the same time, since the tech window and the burst-just-slightly-later window do not overlap.
I get that you're excited but you'd react to either the airthrow or the burst bait, you're not a robot.
Plus the airthrow is at max undizzy, you don't get hella followups.
Plus plus, you can always just not burst.
 
Lol cm show him how much damage filia plus dhc gets from max undizzy airthrow and double gets from burst bait.

He has me on ignore (which is a good good thing) but it looks like something that he's going to ostrich until he gets beat by it. So perhaps not even replying is the best idea.
 
Mike_Z said:
I get that you're excited but you'd react to either the airthrow or the burst bait, you're not a robot.

I have had -some- luck not-bursting, and air-teching on reaction, but that required a lot of focus, and I wasn't sure if I was reacing to the part where the mixup occurs or if I had learned how the recording up to that point looked like. I'd like others to try it and see if they can do it on reaction consistently. If I'm trying to just raw react without specifically looking for it, the air throw isn't techable on reaction.

Mike_Z said:
Plus the airthrow is at max undizzy, you don't get hella followups.

j.qcbMK, adf j.LP j.HP sets up an air throw/whiff-punish-the-air-throw-with-a-c.LP reset on Filia, haven't tested it on others but chances are at least one character I could get the setup to loop into itself off of a Max Undizzy air throw.

As far as damage goes, air throw j.214HK, LP LP LK MP c.MK s.HK(+doublebutt) qcbHK xx Fenrir drive xx Double level 3 does 8.3k. If you start the whole sequence sequence at 2.07~ish? meters, you gain enough for 3 meters. 2.02~ish meter is needed if you start the same setup from a ground throw. At 2v2, mixup into air throw combo is 930 damage off of killing for 3 meters, and the burst bait combo followup off the raw tag kills for 2 meters. With meter backing the setup up, max undizzy is still potent.

Mike_Z said:
Plus plus, you can always just not burst.

Committing to doing nothing will open you up to the 50000 other ways to reset and mixup outside of the burst bait. All mixup option considered, there's way too much to reasonably react to, reads must be made since people simply don't have that much mental RAM. If you're focusing on one part of the reset/mixup blender, you can't see the other parts. Defending against air throw/burst bait/high/low with pure reactions, I am pretty sure, is humanly impossible.

You are going to get opened up by something at some point because you will make a wrong read, and the burst bait beats (so you don't go AHA HE BURST, TIME TO PUNISH then you eat the late part of the hitbox to the face) super in the same window you'd have to defend against high-low, so you can't bypass the mixup with a super.
 
Well, if necessary it's really easy to fix by having bursts not cause preblock.
But I'd like to see it applied first, since there's stuff that's way better than this in MvC2 which is properly defended fine.
 
Mike_Z said:
Well, if necessary it's really easy to fix by having bursts not cause preblock.

This would make things so much better for my Val and Painwheel setups.
 
It's tech that involves double's raw tag OSing off a launcher, which makes it practical since it's DOUBLE whose raw tag lets you confirm super easy from everywhere it hits, you blind buffoon

edit: like you could use it with parasoul and cerebella. any height in which you can do either launcher or air throw as a mixup and have a good conversion off the air throw, you could do this.

do i have to hold your hand and make a video for EVERY CHARACTER
 
well im convinced
 
Double as of now In my opinion, has a lot of potential options for Burst baits. Note I only have PSN meaning I only have Fukua version. The main burst baits I've seen in the Double's I've fought are either a.HP backing away, a.LK backing away, and a.HK. Most Doubles just s.HP with max undizzy and cat heads. BUT, think of Cilia Slide. It really lowers Double's hitbox so say your burst baiting with launcher and they're already half-way in mid-air. If they're mashing, Your bait will success and punish with adash to s.MK. Lunger Replica can make Double smallen her hitbox by going backward so that also works to in most cases.
 
Isn't this already a thing people do? I do this with bella.

Edit: Would also like to add, if you try you tag OS thingie and they don't burst, Double eats a HCH combo (unless I'm so tired that I'm misunderstanding what's happening). And against, say, solo Bella, she's dead flat out no matter what.
 
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Zidiane said:
Edit: Would also like to add, if you try you tag OS thingie and they don't burst, Double eats a HCH combo (unless I'm so tired that I'm misunderstanding what's happening).

You're misunderstanding - If they burst, you cancel ground preblock into tag. If they don't burst, you either jump back in the air and do nothing if you input tag perfectly, or you do a jumpback air normal or you plink the tag input like HP~HK with Filia. The whole point is that it's an option select, not a high-committal read.

If you do launch, they don't burst, and you cancel it into tag, it mean you fucked up the combo and they blocked and you tag, or you didn't wait until hitstop was over to input tag, so you just cancelled Launch into tag.
 
Ohhhhhkay. That sounds a lot better than it looked when I got back from a 10 hour shift at my shit-but-still-better-than-nothing job.
 
Really team-specific tech (Double with Bella using HP LnL) on lightweights:

If you do the common Double launch into j.LK or j.HP burst bait/airthrow 50/50, if you call HP LnL just after you hit the launcher but before you jump cancel it for the 50/50, the airthrow will actually grab with the perfect* timing to make the LnL hit after the grab initiates but _before_ Double-as-Painwheel hits the Buer, which makes it do its 1800 damage completely unscaled. Instead of a crappy ~2k meterless max undizzy airthrow back into 50/50 it's like 4k, and 5.3k with a full HK bomber + car. If they tech-burst it whiffs cleanly over the LnL.

Edit - Actually it seems like you need to throw slightly later than an airtight reset on most characters to make the timing work, it has something to do with where their air physical extent happens to make Double "warp" to when starting the airthrow.
 
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Along with using j.LK and j.HP as IPS and dramatic burst baits, Double's Item Crashes work wonderfully for phishing for baits if your opponent is mashing.


Either way, Double has a ton of tools for burst baiting both solo and with a teammate(s).
 
Don't ever use teacup as a burst bait in that situation, if they aren't mashing then you are straight up punishable. However, the other two leave you plus if they don't mash... but leaves them in a situation to get a practically guaranteed burst if they react to getting hit with barrel/fridge. This isn't bad risk/reward (If they mash, they die, if they don't mash, they lose all of their undizzy).

The biggest reason to use the Barrel or Fridge burst baits is that you can do them from jumping forwards, which will make guessing between air throw/burst bait much more ambiguous since some people can react to jumpback with not pressing buttons (since jumpback j.LK is the standard burst bait), and reacting with throw tech vs forward and neutral jump.

However, look at jumpback j.LK as a burst bait. If your opponent not mashing against j.LK, this results in you getting a mixup on them after they exit hitstun, since if they press buttons at pretty much any timing(some characters can burst out at some timings I don' remembre though) during j.LK they die. But with Barrel or Fridge, exactly one timing is punishable and that's the moment they enter hitstun, the other burst timings leave them safe.

That's my evaluation of your item crash burst baits vs. standard jumpback j.LK burstbait. Both have good viable reasons to be used, but s.HK jumpback j.LK is stronger as an anti-mash or delayed throw tech burst bait imo.
 
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@ClarenceMage I actually tend to use the barrel as a burst bait tactic instead of the other two variants. I've just been doing research recently on what works as a burst bait and figuring out the pros/cons to each normal and special move. Your analysis of my Item Crash burst baits is phenomenal and it has given me some ideas to further explore the situations.
 
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There are basically two kinds of burst baits, anti-mash burst baits which don't have any forced incentive to press buttons, and mixup burst baits where the threat comes from being forced to press buttons to live vs air throw, but pressing buttons kills you with the burst bait.

Take for instance this anti-mash Double vs. Double burst bait:

s.HK j.LP j.MK j.HK xx Barrel, s.LP xx H Shot. Last time I checked, if the enemy double was mashing, the H Luger would move your Double's body backwards to avoid their burst, and you could punish. This will beat a double that's mashing reversal assist or Level 3, and get you good damage. However, if the enemy double is holding downback, they live, and if they re holding upback, they live. They don't have to deal with ground throw mixup either since upback beats that without pressing any buttons.

The only reason that double would be pressing buttons is if they have decided to do greedy defense by calling reversal or doing a reversal with double herself.

However, a mixup burst bait is like what I posted in the OP post. The fact is that you CANNOT escape an air throw with anything other than an air throw tech. This therefore forces buttons out from your opponent, so if you can put a burst bait in the space where the opponent would have to air throw tech, and make both options look similar in startup, you've got yourself a horrifying, horrifying mixup.
 
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