Eliza is broken

[Woofly]

Don't agree. St.mp, Iad, Dp hit invincible, level 3. What else do you need on defense? lol Valentine, Painwheel, Headless fortune, Peacock KINDA, squigly without charge have way worse defense than Eliza. Her defense is not worse in the slightest, it doesn't even come close to being the worst.

Akuma has a good meterless reversal, decent anti air normals and reversal supers in 3S, still a glass cannon. Valentine while lacking a reversal has a 1 bar invincible startup super and the same goes for Painwheel. Eliza with any amount of meter below 3 cannot reversal to avoid throws. Also can we agree that saying "insert character if they do or don't do X" is a bad example, we can't cut mechanics to suit the situation. Furtune has the option of not nerfing herself by taking the head off or be snapped in costing 1 bar (and even then she can reversal for 1 bar) and Squigly players can charge seria (which is REALLY easy mind you).

I am not debating if she is balanced or broken or what have you, but to the point that Eliza is one of the weakest characters when it comes to defending herself, much like Peacock.

 

[dekillsage]

Painwheels hitbox sucks she only has an air super, Valentines is obvious and you can jump over it etc.
Eliza has a move that anti airs, has practically no hurtbox as it starts, and can be special cancelled, a DP that hits people from pushblock range, making it one of the best pbgc reversals, and it beats every ground mix up not throw as well as some jump mix ups. If you read throw you get IAD j.lk or j.hp into a full combo. A glass cannon is a character with strong tools but low health, that doesn't even exist in this game either. And just because her meter'd reversals suck outside of level 3 doesn't mean she's bad defensively.

 

[cloudKing211]

Honestly I thought she was crazy good before I realized s.mp as AA into divekick was a thing. Amazing

 

[Woofly]

Glass cannon does not mean low health, it CAN mean low health but means low defenses (which health falls under). Anyway, we are talking about two very different things I think. Eliza has a great footsie game, she also has an amazing anti air and decent keep away. But what you are talking about is her ability stay out of situations in which she has to defend herself, more than her ability to defend herself when she actually is in those situations, which Peacock is also VERY good at. But both characters once knocked down or up-close lack many of the options other characters have such as start up invincible level 1's (Flatline, Fenrir, Gregor, Dynamo, etc) and FULL invincible specials (Updo, Napalm Pillar, Fiber Up, Seria Draugen and Doubles Bad DP). She also has no double jump or air invincible supers which I find notable for her vs air resets.

I think as an Eliza player this makes me sound like I am trying to defend her strength but I really am not (we have had conversations about this in the past). Just.....things I noticed when playing her, it's things like this that I feel make her an interesting character. She is completely ridiculously oppressive when at mid screen or at the advantage at close ranges, but I suppose her lack of good reversal options are SUPPOSED to balance her out. I don't think the right balance has been struck right now but, it may be too early? I don't know.

Btw if you read she will DP and go for throw then get by IAD j.lk....that isn't a strong defensive game. That is a bad read which results in you getting countered. Any character can do that. I don't dash into someone expecting a DP, get thrown and call that a strong defensive option. All that happened was the opponent made the correct read.

 

[Dime]

Ive never seen glass cannon NOT mean low health (except in this thread) but i of course get what woofly is saying.

I just dont know if i agree with the sentiment. I see it kinda like i see painwheel. Has good defensive moves before hit or knockdown, but not afterwards.

Personally however, i value moves that make it harder to put me in that shiity situation rather than moves that are designed to be good once im put in that situation.

A great example as compared to sg directly is fukua. Also not known for the best after hit defense, but absolutely stellar in the general defense department with her pokes ruling the screen at midrange so well.

But still, i have a hard time swallowing the glass cannon analogy here, especially if we are using akuma (a true textbook glass cannon if there ever was one) for eliza.

If i started thinking like that then id think of pw/val/pc as glass cannons, and i just dont. I just see them as weak upclose with varying levels of weakness dependent upon proximity and/or state.

 

[Cadenza]

Snip

after beta...no on the fukua. ANYWAYS

comparing SF to SG is very very hard and ultimately very loose to transfer concepts.

Eliza isn't even a glass cannon because her defense tool turns shit into the most oppressive guessing. even special canceling it (in retail and current salty changes) if you miss s.mp you go into goku dive and now you still have space. if any of your(you guys in general) examples are fukua,val,PW then there's something wrong.

 

[Dime]

if any of your(you guys in general) examples are fukua,val,PW then there's something wrong.

After hit, all have bad defense. Before hit all have good defense. The example stops there. And no, it isnt wrong for the reasons i just stated.
I dont see you getting your point across, much at all.

 

[Cadenza]

After hit, all have bad defense. Before hit all have good defense. The example stops there. And no, it isnt wrong for the reasons i just stated.
I dont see you getting your point across, much at all.

likewise. but go ahead and continue your points.

 

[Mike_Z]

Glass cannon means super good offense with terrible health, or the equivalent to "dies immediately if touched" in whatever genre, not "has good offense but bad defensive abilities".

If you chicken block Eliza's DP on wakeup you can fully punish with anything you like, she has no options at all. That also dodges throw and j.LK.
If you airblock dive you can punish, but it is good at beating IAD stuff on purpose.

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

Eliza is good, not sure why you're calling her broken though. If you pick her in training and try to come up with some counter measure you'll be fine. I had this nice set up (I still have but I use it rarely now) with weight of anubis + take a train hk, a friend of mine was always in trouble 'cause he got caught by the first one or the second one pretty much always, then he did some training and after 2 weeks of this set up he started to beat it doing cerebella showstopper on wake up. Then he started to use parasoul assist properly to get away from that situation without spending bar.
You have to Deal with it (Eliza quote) and sit down and reflect on your options and Eliza's options. You can also ask people here on her match ups and ways to beat x and y, I did help myself some friend on steam, and I was helped back when I needed to figure out something.

 

[skullh34rt]

I don't get how people so often go from saying "omg Skullgirls is broken what the fuck developers i quit" and when they get a response from Mike do a complete 180 into "OH MY HIGHNESS, THANK YOU FOR THE RESPONSE! WE PEASANTS ARE NOT WORTHY"

I did not change my opinions based on what Mike said. I am still really happy to have gotten feedback from Mike because, as he said, the community has WAY more input into the game design than any other game in history, and that's because of him. I also agree that SG is one of the most balanced games ever.

I never said that I had trouble defeating Eliza. Everyone just assumed that based on my contentious post. I said that playing against her took the fun out of the game for me. In fact, even though I checked back on this thread, I haven't gone back to SG.

Edit: also, when I said Eliza is the Akuma of SG, I was referring to Akuma being banned in super turbo tournaments.

Edit 2: if Eliza is actually being scaled back in the next patch I might give it a shot.

 

[alexpi]

Akuma wasn't banned because he was unfun. He was banned because his mechanics were not designed with players in mind. Some characters had literally no way to deal with air fireballs.

 

[skullh34rt]

Akuma wasn't banned because he was unfun. He was banned because his mechanics were not designed with players in mind. Some characters had literally no way to deal with air fireballs.

Yes. That is the analogy I am making. I do think Eliza is broken, and have thought so for a while, and now matches including Eliza have lost their appeal and become frequent enough that I put down the game.

 

[Spencer]

I don't know that she is broken. I have yet to figure her out though.

She is goddamn annoying though. Better not get hit by a stray anything or you're in combo land.

 

[alexpi]

If she's broken, how do you have no trouble beating her?

You've yet to put a cogent argument to your initial post other than complaining about her non-invincible, reactable super existing, and calling that cogent is a stretch at best. I like the damage tweaks she's got in the beta, I think that's all she really needs for balance, but I'm a scrub.

Now, saying she's unfun to play against has a little more weight at all skill levels. Frankly, I don't think you're good enough to tell if someone is legit broken. That's fine. A vast majority of the people who play any game probably aren't good enough to tell if someone's broken. Unfun is much more fluid. However, again, you don't put a cogent argument to this. Why is Lady of Slaughter unfun, but Gregor Samson (which actually earns Filia a combo) fine?

 

[Senjin]

Akuma wasn't banned because he was unfun. He was banned because his mechanics were not designed with players in mind. Some characters had literally no way to deal with air fireballs.

Yes. That is the analogy I am making. I do think Eliza is broken, and have thought so for a while, and now matches including Eliza have lost their appeal and become frequent enough that I put down the game.

Uhhhhh.....

I also agree that SG is one of the most balanced games ever.

I never said that I had trouble defeating Eliza. Everyone just assumed that based on my contentious post. I said that playing against her took the fun out of the game for me.

Either you don't understand what alexpi is saying, or you don't understand what you're saying. As I understand it (not familiar with Super Turbo), Akuma was banned because not only did he have very good moves, but some of them were literally unbeatable by certain characters. As in, if you picked a bad matchup it wouldn't matter how good of a player you are, you would still lose. But you said yourself, you can totally beat Eliza, and as others have pointed out, there are ways around all of her moves.

So... idk. Do you just want her to be easier to beat? As people have said, Eliza is good. As Mike said, she's getting (has gotten) some tweaks. But no one, including you, has said that she is unbeatable. So... what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

 

[Kai]

I hate people who use, "broken," like this. This isn't Reddit. Not everything with a small flaw (or is simply by design something you don't like) is BROKEN. I don't like fighting against Eliza because I hate her offensive options, but broken? Gimme a fuckin' break :/

 

[skullh34rt]

If she's broken, how do you have no trouble beating her?

You've yet to put a cogent argument to your initial post other than complaining about her non-invincible, reactable super existing, and calling that cogent is a stretch at best. I like the damage tweaks she's got in the beta, I think that's all she really needs for balance, but I'm a scrub.

Now, saying she's unfun to play against has a little more weight at all skill levels. Frankly, I don't think you're good enough to tell if someone is legit broken. That's fine. A vast majority of the people who play any game probably aren't good enough to tell if someone's broken. Unfun is much more fluid. However, again, you don't put a cogent argument to this. Why is Lady of Slaughter unfun, but Gregor Samson (which actually earns Filia a combo) fine?

"Unfun" is subjective. Eliza is cheap enough that she ruins the game for me. That's what I've been saying this whole time. Perhaps you didn't actually read the whole thread. I gave multiple examples of things I think are unbalanced and overpowered. Just because she's broken doesn't mean I'm not able to defeat less skilled players when they choose her. Not everyone chooses to abuse her imbalances at all times. Lady of Slaughter does WAY too much damage. I don't think Gregor Samson isn't cheap but I don't think it necessarily breaks the game, probably because Filia was one of the original characters and there's been a whole lot more time for design and testing and tweaking. The original characters are more balanced against each other than the newer characters.

You're not qualified to say I'm not good enough to tell if someone is legit broken.

Uhhhhh.....

Either you don't understand what alexpi is saying, or you don't understand what you're saying. As I understand it (not familiar with Super Turbo), Akuma was banned because not only did he have very good moves, but some of them were literally unbeatable by certain characters. As in, if you picked a bad matchup it wouldn't matter how good of a player you are, you would still lose. But you said yourself, you can totally beat Eliza, and as others have pointed out, there are ways around all of her moves.

So... idk. Do you just want her to be easier to beat? As people have said, Eliza is good. As Mike said, she's getting (has gotten) some tweaks. But no one, including you, has said that she is unbeatable. So... what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

A move is only unbeatable by certain characters if the player performing the move does it right. Eliza's imbalance is such that a much less skilled player can use her to defeat someone they would have literally no chance against in any other circumstance. Eliza has moves that are easy to perform and are so much more exponentially difficult for a skilled player to withstand that it breaks the otherwise excellent balance of this game. If someone playing as Akuma in super turbo can't pull off an air fireball aimed at their opponent, that doesn't mean they are not playing as a character who is broken.

What am I trying to accomplish? I want Eliza to be completely removed from the game. Obviously that's never going to happen and isn't necessarily fair of me to ask. I wanted to find out if other people thought she was broken and if enough other people did, I thought it might be worth continuing to play and trying to get Mike to change things. I have no interest in arguing semantics.

It doesn't really matter if a character is a glass cannon if that character is also completely overpowered. There is a difference between deep, intricate, balanced gameplay and simply making a character take way too much damage in some circumstances because they deal way too much damage in others. You could call that balanced but it doesn't make for a fun game. That's like saying the "maximum damage" feature of Mortal Kombat 4 is awesome because it makes the game more balanced. As far as I know, that's more indicative of a workaround for a design error than a well-thought-out gameplay element that adds depth to the game.

In general I think SG is an excellent game. It renewed my hope for the lost art that fighting games have become. Eliza, though, is too far.

 

[Arcana]

well how about this? what changes to Eliza would make her a lot less broken in your opinion?

 

[alexpi]

Look kid, I'm gonna level with ya: cheap is the battlecry of the scrub.

Your concrete examples are "Lady of Slaughter is too good, she has too much reach, does too much damage, has too much hitstun, Sekhmet's super armor is too good, and is too good as an assist with Sekhmet moves". If this was true, she'd be broken. But she's not, because you can beat lesser players. I could pick up ST Akuma today and destroy Gunze (to my knowledge, the best ST gief) with a day or two of practicing links. That's broken. Everyone has tools to deal with Eliza, but you're complaining rather than finding out how to fight against Eliza. I mean, hell, there's even an Anti-Eliza thread 2 posts down from yours.

 

[josshu]

"Unfun" is subjective. Eliza is cheap enough that she ruins the game for me. That's what I've been saying this whole time. Perhaps you didn't actually read the whole thread. I gave multiple examples of things I think are unbalanced and overpowered. Just because she's broken doesn't mean I'm not able to defeat less skilled players when they choose her. Not everyone chooses to abuse her imbalances at all times. Lady of Slaughter does WAY too much damage. I don't think Gregor Samson isn't cheap but I don't think it necessarily breaks the game, probably because Filia was one of the original characters and there's been a whole lot more time for design and testing and tweaking. The original characters are more balanced against each other than the newer characters.

You're not qualified to say I'm not good enough to tell if someone is legit broken.

No Alexpi was correct. "Unfun" is the proper way to describe your opinion of her. She ruins the game "for you". I imagine she also ruins the game for a few others, but y'know i bet your main(s) are out there ruining the game for someone, somewhere, and that doesn't make them anymore broken than it makes Eliza. Broken is actually a little more objective than you're making it out to be. Unfun varies from person to person, but broken is usually too convincing to argue against. The point people are trying to make is that you're basically using the wrong word to describe her. It's totally fine if you think she's unfun, that's your opinion, but you're going to have to be much, much more convincing to prove that she's actually broken.

The fact of the matter is, even if she was the undisputed best character in the game that still wouldn't make her automatically broken. It would just make her the strongest character. Broken is a little more extreme than you think. That's why you're getting the reaction you're getting. Because apparently you don't understand just how good you're saying you think she is.

Finally it really doesn't matter how good you are or aren't. You can still misuse a word and be wrong about a character. If you had said "Eliza is pissing me off: need to vent" or "Her offence is too oppressive" or better still "Need help fighting Eliza!" people wouldn't be calling your skill or the quality of your observations into question.

 

[skullh34rt]

Look kid, I'm gonna level with ya: cheap is the battlecry of the scrub.

No, "cheap is the battlecry of scrubs" is the battlecry of the cheap.

No Alexpi was correct. "Unfun" is the proper way to describe your opinion of her. She ruins the game "for you". I imagine she also ruins the game for a few others, but y'know i bet your main(s) are out there ruining the game for someone, somewhere, and that doesn't make them anymore broken than it makes Eliza. Broken is actually a little more objective than you're making it out to be. Unfun varies from person to person, but broken is usually too convincing to argue against. The point people are trying to make is that you're basically using the wrong word to describe her. It's totally fine if you think she's unfun, that's your opinion, but you're going to have to be much, much more convincing to prove that she's actually broken.

The fact of the matter is, even if she was the undisputed best character in the game that still wouldn't make her automatically broken. It would just make her the strongest character. Broken is a little more extreme than you think. That's why you're getting the reaction you're getting. Because apparently you don't understand just how good you're saying you think she is.

Finally it really doesn't matter how good you are or aren't. You can still misuse a word and be wrong about a character. If you had said "Eliza is pissing me off: need to vent" or "Her offence is too oppressive" or better still "Need help fighting Eliza!" people wouldn't be calling your skill or the quality of your observations into question.

Well there's definitely a misunderstanding somewhere. I think I do understand what broken means and have not made a convincing argument for it. As I said at the beginning of this thread I did not want to debate the finer points of my analysis because I know that people will just disagree with my assessment. Broken doesn't necessarily mean not fun, but it can.

I disagree that a character being broken means that they are always undefeatable under any circumstances. I think I said this earlier. If a character is broken but the person playing the character doesn't know what the buttons do or how to block, they can still be defeated. I think a character is broken if they can be used as a broken character, regardless of how difficult it is to pull off the broken moves. If someone can get high accuracy performing a difficult but broken move, that doesn't mean it's not broken.

I am surprised by the coherence of the community in debating this. I think I should go back in and carefully spec out everything that I think makes Eliza broken. I really want to in case any of those changes could influence a patch and I think you all deserve a more clearly defined explanation. However, I have not had the time to do that. I'll post it if I get the chance.

 

[NCV]

Learn the brokenness herself and go win Evo then

 

[UnholyArceus]

sadly i never fought an Eliza online or in RL. so i don't know how she's cheap. but if you can get use to her gimmick's and fighters are not all about balance sometimes.

 

[Broken Loose]

I love the "is as broken as Akuma" statements because it's a clear indicator that the person doesn't know what they're talking about.

I'm assuming the Akuma statement is in reference to the version of Akuma that was actually broken, the Super Turbo version. Who could not be dizzied, had a single-move blockstun + chip damage infinite, had air fireballs that actually broke the game engine (including nullifying the opponent's projectile invulnerability), invincible tatsu that trivialized dealing with wakeup, and has a number of inescapable fireball traps. Even the patched versions of Akuma were busted, because he could set up inescapable Raging Demons.

Does Eliza instantly recover from stagger? Can she chip you to death in the corner with a single repeated special that links into itself? Does she have multiple unblockable setups? Does she have a variety of completely invincible reversals and approach moves? Are literally all her matchups 9:1? If you answered "no" to any or all of these, Akuma's a very bad comparison.

 

[Nuuance]

Checked hitboxes and Eliza's dp isn't...invincible? Sorry haven't played as her since beta. Then what does she use as reversals? Seems she's mean in your face but when down...idk

 

[skull person]

It's strike invincible.

 

[Nuuance]

It's strike invincible.

Ohh I see, but not throw invincible right. Complete invincibility is white & strike is...light blue/Aqua? If that's her only real reversal...which has weird hitboxes, then she shouldn't be too hard to close in on right


@Mike_Z would it be possible to put a hitbox color key somewhere in the game...? For people who play 1k+ hours but still are stupid people about hitboxes? /tangent

 

[Mike_Z]

@Mike_Z would it be possible to put a hitbox color key somewhere in the game...? For people who play 1k+ hours but still are stupid people about hitboxes? /tangent

Like where?

 

[CaioLugon]

Like where?

Maybe a tutorial lesson going over some training mode features?

 

[Nuuance]

@Mike_Z perhaps in the main training menu (when playing)...I can do a mockup or something later after I re-install Photoshop. A tutorial idk...but perhaps something just to know what the colors are.

Although...I didn't know about the holding-direction before start of round to
End in a certain corner. Has saved SO much time...but I didn't know

 

[Aden]

Actually a tutorial for training mode would be nice. Seeing as the tutorial section is beginner friendly I think there should be some sort of explanation for frame data, hitbox notation, or any other option that's not immediately self explanatory to someone unfamiliar with fighting games. Not anything super detailed, just explaining what colors/numbers/functions are.

I know we're past suggestion point and am in no way asking for this, just saying it's not a bad idea. Then again a good amount of people really need to learn that the internet has search engines.

 

[Sydoh]

You could put a training mode legend in the same area as movelists maybe?

 

[psformii]

Everyone love eliza

 

[mcpeanuts]

A solid thread bump my good man. Nicely done

 

[psformii]

It's just a week ago

 

[Zidiane]

Oh man. I'm sad I missed this when it happened. Man. I had the perfect joke. I was gonna come in like "No, Eliza isn't broken, YOU ARE BROKEN", cleverly referencing Eliza's super move. Damn. I would have had all the likes.

 

[Spencer]

Oh man. I'm sad I missed this when it happened. Man. I had the perfect joke. I was gonna come in like "No, Eliza isn't broken, YOU ARE BROKEN", cleverly referencing Eliza's super move. Damn. I would have had all the likes.

You should do it anyway... oh... I see.

 

[dapurplesharpie]

Man, Eliza is so cheap. She even says she has no weaknesses.

That's how you know she's cheap.

 

[Aden]

I think my Eliza is broken, I can't find the Kira/Killer Queen palette.