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Eliza Matchup Thread.

Are any Eliza's out there having any problems with painwheel or double? Are there any matchups that seem bad for her this early?
 
Bumpity bump since she's out.

To actually put some information here, she seems to be a decent counter to Peacock since a few of her moves eat up projectiles. (Shame there's no more infinite projectile armor on C.HK)
 
WaterMystic277 said:
Shame there's no more infinite projectile armor on C.HK
There actually is, but just during the active frames, not during startup and recovery. Still, it's enough to allow her to block the first part of Argus and punish with c.HK while absorbing the second part anywhere from 1/3 to 3/4 screen away. Not farther since boat doesn't travel fullscreen, and not point blank since she gets hit before the startup ends, but if she's that close, grab is likely an option.
 
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you can punish from fullscreen by doing c.hk, H upper khat
 
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I think Filia is a terrible match up for her. She has the tools to combat Filia but they are either quick but with little range like s.mp, or long range but slow like her s.hp and s.hk. Plus if Filia does get in eliza is screwed. You can't super out and her dp is just bad. I think Eliza definitely needs a dp assist for this match up.

Parasoul matchup is weird. Day one I thought Parasoul beat her free. However, I'm not so sure now because Eliza's j.mk is REALLY good. Beat a ton of parasoul's with mostly that alone.
 
What about the Horace divekick against filla. It works well and even if it trades you get a full combo
 
@Temple NUT!
I've been hit out of the start up or horace was just beat completely by filia iad j.hp sooooo many times. It works but not always.
 
CaioLugon said:
you can punish from fullscreen by doing c.hk, H upper khat
This is the actual anti-Peacock strat. c.HK by itself is like "ok whatever dude".
 
Filia dodges divekick free. My usual plan in quick match vs filia is to chicken block till 3 meters then go for reversal level 3. if I'm playing live or in a lobby, I'll happily change my team order so I don't have to deal with eliza v filia.

Painwheel is awkward because Eliza is better at controlling ground space rather than air space. j.mk and j.hk are good pokes, but hard to get clean conversions off of. Similar to Filia, Upper Khat and Horace pretty much always whiff PW when on defense.

Fortune feels better than Filia, you can out poke her in the air (even if you don't necessarily get clean conversions), Fiber Upper doesn't really mess with your pressure game that much unless you get too j.hp happy. If they play head off, your BnB puts a terrible hurt on her.

Parasoul feels OK. Parasoul gets the nasty tall combos on you, but her slowness means you can go nuts with servant summons.

Those are the only MUs I've played enough to really get a feel for.
 
@bubbaking
I don't think so. You have to be really preemptive with it because, it takes about 30 frames to go into sekhmet. So it's a very hard read that will just cost you too much to go for if they block it.
 
I wanna bring this thread back, now that there's been some time to figure some stuff out on Eliza. I'm not putting numbers yet, but this is what I've seen so far

Big Band: Big Band favored. Eliza (as far as I've found) lacks an instant overhead vs Big Band. She also lacks a good way to beat BB's armor as her sweep has a lot of startup (you have to start sweeping preemptively) and she doesn't have especially good multi-hit moves to bust through armor.

Cerebella: Not 100% sure. i think it's even, but may be slightly in Bella's favor since Eliza can't really avoid grabs well. The matchup looks like a Marvel 2 match with how many whiffed air normals get thrown out.

Double: Again, not 100% sure, but think it's even. Neither have a good DP, both are kinda slow, and both have "fuck you projectile" buttons. Gonna give a slight edge to Eliza since her damage is better, but it's really close

Filia: Filia's pretty strongly favored. Eliza's terrible reversals really come into play here. Filia can easily dodge servants and even if you get on offense, Filia's got a good DP.

Fukua: Eliza favored, slightly. Sweeping through fireballs and shadows is good. Fukua's j.hk is fast enough to cause issues if you're careless on sweeps, but it still gives you a fairly easy approach and Fukua can't really counter Eliza's jump attacks once Eliza is already in.

Ms. Fortune: If the Fortune know's head off play, then I think this is in Fortune's favor. Otherwise, it goes to Eliza. Vs head on, Eliza can hang out full screen throwing servants and can s.mp any jump ins that get around servants. Head off, Fortune can react to any summon with zoom-nom and Eliza has fairly predictable jump arcs when approaching Fortune. Basically, the situation flips when Fortune is head off.

Parasoul: Evenish. Parasoul can't really throw tears or shots, but Eliza's tall enough that lots of Parasoul's air attacks are good. S.MP doesn't help much as an anti-air since Parasoul's hitboxes are so disjointed.

Peacock: Good for Eliza. Sweep into either Horus or DP gets through everything Peacock wants to do and most of Eliza's resets are airborne so Peacock can't do a lot. You can use throne when you're expecting teleports and get full punishes too.

Squigly: I'm gonna say slightly in Squigly's favor, but I could be very wrong. When I play this on the Squigly side, I just hang out full screen and hit any jumps with j.hp. When in with Squigly, i just abuse Eliza's bad DP. When I play this on the other side, it's a whole lot of jump forward blocking with an occasional Horus called to tag errant j.hp.

Valentine: Val favored. See Filia minus the DP.
 
In general I agree with most of those but I'll point out the ones I disagree with.

BB - Heavily disagree. I think Eliza has that MU down solidly. Up close, Eliza can mixup between crossup/fake crossup faster than valentine or filia with her IAD jLK or Air dashing into jLK at all, which is REALLY strong and confusing. BB being so big means that even if jLK isn't immediately an overhead, delay or using one of the other irregular buttons (like jMP or jMK) point blank for your overhead works just as well on BB. Eliza's jumps and airdashes solidly let her go above rush punches, so that's much of a worry for her either. Starting offensive approaches just with cHK and canceling into something (divekick, DP, L spiral, even sekhmet) really sucks for BB to deal with because his only options on the defensive is either DP or Cymbals both of which lose to well spaced sekhmet/DP. As always, Eliza doesn't have great defenses but BB doesn't exactly have the scariest up close pressure so it's not a big problem for her. I think the key is establishing well that you can start your offense from cHK to stop his A-trains/Brasses.

Cerebella - I actually think this is Eliza favor as well, but a lot of it is getting offensive momentum to get in Bella's air space with jMK's to cover the ground and air grabs to shut down her double jumps/jHPs/jMPs while interchanging with ground approaches to avoid getting excellabella'd or dynamo'd. The key here I think is that I think Eliza gets in Bella's air space for air buttons or air grab really really well. But even at worst, this feels even and very much not Bella favor imo.

Parasoul - Solidly Eliza advantage. Parasoul cannot deal with cHK very well if at all besides assists (which is a separate thing) or a big old jHP, which is easily counterable. On top of that, Parasoul cannot hit Eliza buttons very well except by upbacking and praying with a jLK/jHP, which again if you have the read is very counterable but most of all she can't combo from that. If you are good at shutting down Parasoul zoning, then she'll be forced to play offense, and from there you can use Divekick servant, sHK or jHK for free which are all fairly hard for her to deal with. Though I do think that Parasoul can apply pressure to defensive Eliza better than almost any other character once she gets in since it's very easy to bait out Eliza DPs with Para.

Squigly - Not so much disagree, but I do think you are leaving out that jLP from ELiza is really solid here since it can fight well against Squigly jHP and jLK. I feel like it's evenish, but at worst I'd agree that it feels Squigly favor like you said.
 
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alexpi said:
Big Band: Big Band favored. Eliza (as far as I've found) lacks an instant overhead vs Big Band.
You better find one, otherwise I have to change the compendium to say "every character except Eliza" >:[

Seriously though that's hard to believe. I know j.LK isn't an overhead while it's rising but does j.HP really not work?
 
j.hp is too slow to be 'instant' overhead. Otherwise, we'll just have to tag Eliza's j.HP as an instant overhead on the whole cast.

EDIT: Also, I'm still on the Parasoul matchup being evenish. Parasoul has to be the offensive player, but that's how most Parasoul players run her anyways. Pillar also beats every non-sekhmet grounded reset I've seen on Eliza. There could certainly be others I'm unaware of, but like I said, this has just been my observations over the last month or so.
 
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Big Band is one of the easiest to convert off of meterless throw from wherever as Eliza. I don't think it's much of a factor, but it's nice for Eliza.
 
Does iad j.LK work on Big Band? Because it doesn't work on anyone else unless you're like a character length away.
 
it does, it also can crossup on him. she still can instant overhead him but i don't think she can fuzzy guard him.
 
Big Band: I think that this one is slightly on Eliza's favour . She can get through Giant Step HK with her cr HK, she can punish almost everything Band can throw at her with sekhmet and she has the best armor in the game, which is one of Big Band best strength point. Also, she can mix up him with ease thanks to his height, jumping, calling servants and using sekhmet.

Cerebella: This one I feel it's even, or slighly in Eliza's favour. Not sure why though, I kinda feel that Eliza has loads of options to get through Bella defence, and can easilly avoid to enter into the grab range.

Parasoul: Dunno this one, I still have to play against a good Parasoul to grasp the matchup info, for now I'd say in Eliza's favour, even if those mix ups can be scary.

Peacock: This one is on Eliza's Favour. She can use her cr HK to get near, get peacock with Weight of Anubis while she is throwing things, she can get through everything with sekhmet (even though she gets a lot of damage) and mostly, if Peacock gets into the corner is likely dead meat. Getting near her can be quite boring since you'll have to run, boat, try to punish, defend more than once, but that is the same with every character, the difference is made primarly by cr HK since it allows to get near faster and, if in the right range, punish even the Argus Agony with upperkat.

Painwheel: This one... I feel like it's even or slightly in Painwheel Favour. Eliza is doing fine against painwheel and has good options, but the lack of a "normal" dp is a nice thing for Painwheel, since she can expect to be able to pressure all the time without being caught by upperkat into her operative range (close). The key should be to keep painwheel into the mid range, so she can be dp with upperkat.

Fillia: Same as Painwheel. The only difference here is that updo weakens Eliza's offensive air options, jump hp is quite risky to use and that airdash is quite nasty.

Fukua: In favour of Eliza. Her "Zoning" game with bubbles is weak against eliza's cr HK and sekhmet. And Fukua is also slow and has to come near to be a threat, so she has to get into the mid range which is Eliza's forte.

Squigly: Even. She can pressure fine if charged, but she can have some troubles with Eliza midscreen range. Squigly isn't comfortable while charging since she has to avoid weight of anubis, but can pressure Eliza with j hp that has a nice range, and more important she can pressure Eliza using center stage + super to get near into the "comfortable" range to mix up.

Valentine: Even though I haven't played much against Valentine, I'd say it's in favour of Eliza. Val has a nice ground dash and solid tools, but eliza beats her in everything else. And the lack of a reversal is good since Eliza can pressure all the time calling servants whenever she get pushblocked without being punished (at max you'll get a sting)

Fortune: Dunno this one, I have yet to play against a good Fortune, for now I'll say it's mostly even since the both excell where the other one is weak (Close range Fortune, Mid Range Eliza).
 
wait, giant step is a projectile?

damn, that changes a lot for me
 
I feel like the PW matchup is actually not bad for Eliza at all; even or slightly Eliza favored.

Don't try to contest PW air-to-air (you'll lose with anything except a psychic air throw). Instead, just try to make some space and use servants, ESPECIALLY MK. PW has a much harder time avoiding MK servant than Filia does -- her slower speed means that it's harder for her to stuff you out of the startup, and it also means that if she wants to get to you, she has to sit in the "danger zone" for longer.
 
Eliza has a really easy time trashing bad Fukuas. Dunno what the fuck she does against a good one (read: one that doesn't try to spam ground shadows/fireballs against her)
 
Eliza has a very straightforward (in a good way) approach to hit Fukua. Both are fucking awful once they're under pressure, but I feel like Eliza has a slightly easier time establishing the pressure.
 
I'm not going to go deep into matchups this early, but right now, the only matchup I find "bad" is Fillia and I'm not sure if it will stay that way. It doesn't even feel that bad, either, j.MK is godly against Fillia at half to full screen, it is just very difficult to deal with Fillia once she is inside. Upper Knat is terrible at dealing with Fillia crossing up and just going nuts on you in general, 5MP would be good but too slow. Even 5LP is a little bit too slow I feel, but it has been my most reliable defense tool against Fillia.

Even then, I wouldn't be calling the matchup worse than 6-4 at this point.


Parasoul is likely a bad matchup but I haven't really had much experience yet, Parasoul's air priority is probably a pain to deal with and her ground pokes rival/beat ours out. However I find we deal with her pressure better than she deals with ours.


Other matchups I'm really not sure, but probably even: Valentine, Fortune, Fukua?
 
alexpi said:
wait, giant step is a projectile?

damn, that changes a lot for me

Here

You can get through the wave if you time it rightly, otherwise is goint to hit you. If the pedal hits you it's a different story, that count as a high and cr. HK armor doesn't work

@Tomo009 Dealing with Fillia is quite annoying, I'd abuse sekhmet in air whenever I see someone that no matter what is going to jump (like her). Or just push block and summon dive of horace, that worked for me a bunch of time against Fillia
 
My Impressions on Matchups

I've been playing Eliza nonstop since Sep 30th, solo, duo, trio, point, mid, anchor, about 75 hours now.
I'm just some intermediate player though. Take my shitty opinions with a grain of my salt.

Good:
Big Band: 6-4 Slightly Eliza. Both have to attack/bait to get anything done, Eliza's are slightly faster.
Cerebella: 6-4 Slightly Eliza. Mostly because you limit her movement. Try not to fight grapplers head-on.
Double: 7-3 Favor Eliza. She can't move against this. Keep her at midrange and you should be fine.
Parasoul: 6-4 Slightly Eliza. Keep her grounded, occasionally punishing things other characters can't.
Peacock: 7-3 Favor Eliza. Stop her jump and punish teleports. Throne absorbs projectiles too.
Painwheel: 6-4 Slightly Eliza. See big band, replace "faster" with "longer". Whoever pressures first wins.
Valentine: 6-4 Slightly Eliza. Try to trade/bully her, or she'll carve crop circles in your giant hurtboxes.

Bad:
Filia: 3-7 Favor Filia. This sucks. Trying to contest her IAD/low shit is an uphill battle.
Fukua: 4-6 Slightly Fukua. You eventually end up fighting her air normals. Guess who has priority.
MsFortune: 3-7 Favor MsFortune. This surprisingly blows. You hate block pressure+slippery mobility.
Squigly: 4-6 Slightly Squigly. Her j.LK is annoying. Being big gets you clipped by divekicks/gimmicks.

Overall: You do well against anyone who's approach you can stuff with pokes. You do badly against anyone who's pressure game is much safer than yours. I feel that Eliza is a polarizing character and your results come down to the assist matchup to establish/resist pressure more often than not.
 
This might be a newbie question, but what is a solid way to figure out match-ups? In SF4, my friend would have the CPU fight a CPU for ten matches and base it off of that. I'd love to figure out Eliza's match-ups since she's playing point on my team now.
 
tstywall said:
This might be a newbie question, but what is a solid way to figure out match-ups? In SF4, my friend would have the CPU fight a CPU for ten matches and base it off of that. I'd love to figure out Eliza's match-ups since she's playing point on my team now.

I can tell you that there isn't a 100% accurate way to tell that a match up is in favour of someone. Assuming that both players know their stuff, play solo (no assist to cover up or additional reversal), are equally skilled (wich is pretty difficult to find) and know the opponent's character, you might figure it out after a lot of experience against a character. And most of the times match ups are only opinions, some of them have good points, other ones are completely based on personal issues :PUN:
To figure out Eliza's match ups you should play and note what's wrong against a character and what's good against him. I can tell you that Fillia is a bad match up for Eliza since the airdashing lady goes where you can only read the opponent's move beforehand and act accordingly (summon Dive of Horace) or just guess it right using st :MP: and getting a counter. Collect many thoughts from players who know their stuff and you have something that is somewhat reliable.
 
The more I play the Eliza, the less and less I think she has good MUs against Double and PW. Pw's jMP/Double jHP actually beat out horus when not done extremely pre-emptively thanks to their high hitbox and not terrible startup so if you try to react you'll get stuff'd out 90% of the time. The only time I ever got to AA those buttons was somehow finding some magic timing after sHKx1 into Horus, but since I can't seem to find that timing anymore I'm just putting that down to luck. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the Double MU hinges upon your skill of getting perfect cHKxxDP punishes, since I don't have it 100% consistent yet, but PW is a mystery to me since it feels like I can't AA her at all and none of the air to airs I normally use work at all.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
why does everyone say the matchup vs fukua is in favor of eliza. maybe its just me but i've steam rolled eliza
I'm not going to pretend I'm an Eliza expert, but I agree with this guy right here. Every time I've played against a Fukua, assists or not, with Eliza I feel like i have no solid options fullscreen and very few solid options up close.

Even if c.HK > Upper Khat is a good anti-zoning option, I feel like it comes out way too slow to actually do anything against Fukua. If I'm pinned fullscreen because of fireball pressure, which is more accurate because of Eliza's tall hitbox, superjump or superjump > Air Dash can only get you so far because of Fukua's air priority, and even from halfscreen I have a hard time seeing c.HK > Upper Khat catching a non-flowchart Fukua who does more than Ground Fireball > Air Fireball > Ground Fireball > Air Fireball. It just isn't fast enough. Even when I do catch with H Upper Khat the conversion is really wonky, leaving me back in neutral anyway.

I would say it's 6-4 Fukua EASILIY, almost bordering on 7-3 in my opinion but Eliza still has some potential left and the match itself isn't THAT blatantly abysmal to say 7-3.
 
Bump because I'm curious what people think of her now after almost a year.

plus for IAD shenanigans, either sMP didn't exist as a neato anti air back then or people just... forgot about it
 
IMO
Beats Head On Fortune, Double, Filia, Beo. She anti-airs well and just has convenient ways to stuff these characters at the ranges they want to play at

Loses to Head Off Fortune, Bella, maybe Band. If you can't control the ground, Eliza feels super weak. She also doesn't break armor well.

Everyone else feels fairly even
 
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I think she loses to double and para. She always has to wary of pressing a button in the air because of l and h gun nad she has gigantic hurt boxes. a double that spaces herself well will never get hit by anti air s.mp. para's napalm shots easily control eliza full/mid screen and most of eliza's air button get beat out by para's disjointed normals
 
LazyBakemono said:
I think she loses to double and para. She always has to wary of pressing a button in the air because of l and h gun nad she has gigantic hurt boxes. a double that spaces herself well will never get hit by anti air s.mp. para's napalm shots easily control eliza full/mid screen and most of eliza's air button get beat out by para's disjointed normals

Omg thank you I've been saying this for almost a year and people gave me crazy looks ;_;

Also SMp anti was around last year too. The only slight tech thing I thing everyone picked up in the last that's way different is using clk cmp for block strings/confirms instead of cmk

I wouldn't say Eliza loses to Bella or big band, I think those are evenish. I used to think that PW beat Eliza, but it's been a long time since a PW gave me trouble as Eliza personally so I dunno how others view it. Fwiw when I play as PW against Eliza I feel it as a slight favor for pw so I still hold onto that possibility.
 
fenster said:
Omg thank you I've been saying this for almost a year and people gave me crazy looks ;_;

Also SMp anti was around last year too. The only slight tech thing I thing everyone picked up in the last that's way different is using clk cmp for block strings/confirms instead of cmk

I wouldn't say Eliza loses to Bella or big band, I think those are evenish. I used to think that PW beat Eliza, but it's been a long time since a PW gave me trouble as Eliza personally so I dunno how others view it. Fwiw when I play as PW against Eliza I feel it as a slight favor for pw so I still hold onto that possibility.
I also think that BB and bella are even for eliza. PW I dont know since they kinda started dissapearing for some reason. it's been a while since i played a good painwheel. I've had to change to c.mp for confirms because c.mk has cost me way to many matches and nec was the last straw.
 
does cMK have a gap in a block string?

also i feel like Bella is an ok matchup as long as we like, don't use sekhmet outside of combos. that might hurt some people but i find jMK and jHK and the like to keep her out as well as anyone might expect

as for PW, she can stay out of Eliza's reach pretty easily with flight imo, and grabbing is really the only way to get her in if you can reach her at all (because of armor). Plus you don't really have a reversal to mash during those crazy mixups
 
It's hella unsafe if they block it. for example if bella blocks it she can pbgc 360 and there is not a single thing she can do about it (aside from level 3 but that's not practical)
 
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