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Excellabella meter gain never scales and unblockables

@fenster
Double j.LP startup delays her landing for 7f vs doing nothing, that's enough to invalidate the setup.
Beowulf can M Blitzer vs not doing it, which require two different timings for Fukua and gets him a doublesnap if he gets it right.
Big Band can M or H Beat, without meter.

Kai said:
Dealing with this setup is the kind of thing that's above my level, and always will be. Thing is, most people fall into that category with this. Nobody's beating this setup right now.
The key words here are "right now".
ANY setup you haven't seen before is going to hit you until you learn about it, this is true everywhere.
Remember when Doom/Amaterasu triple-team was a guaranteed hit? Yeah.

Kai said:
If the trick to beating this is playing 250+ matches against sage,
The trick to beating it is having seen it before, as with most setups, and being prepared for it.
For some people it takes 250 games to react. For some people it takes twice.

Cynical said:
you can [snip] avoid taking damage.
Keep in mind the overall content of your sentence.
Difference vs Eliza is that Eliza's is a different guess every time, this is NOT a guess every time, you just do your thing and the setup becomes junk. And for most characters "your thing" is "press one button once".

Is this setup good? Sure.
Is there a specific counter that you need to know? Sure. That's what makes it good!
Do you have to guess once you know the counter? No.
Is it risky? Yes.
Is it broken? No.
DO NOT EVEN JOKE about asking for changes to help you not need to improve.

I shudder to think what it would be like if this community had to figure out counters to things organically by playing games at the arcade.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Big Band can M or H Beat, without meter.
I thought M Beat Extend was only strike invincible?
 
Mike_Z said:
@fenster
Double j.LP startup delays her landing for 7f vs doing nothing, that's enough to invalidate the setup.
Beowulf can M Blitzer vs not doing it, which require two different timings for Fukua and gets him a doublesnap if he gets it right.
Big Band can M or H Beat, without meter.

The ways to escape I posted were ways to get out regardless of timing (or at least the timings I tried) and M blitzer got hit by all of them so I didn't think it would work, but after trying another timing M blitzer worked so I might go through all the options again and double check what works. Also Double j.lp hasn't worked at all even after going through a bunch of different timings so I wouldn't rely on it as a reliable way to get out.

Also I'm not fenster.

Yeah everything still works, some ways just get easier or harder
 
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Mike_Z said:
Keep in mind the overall content of your sentence.
Difference vs Eliza is that Eliza's is a different guess every time, this is NOT a guess every time, you just do your thing and the setup becomes junk. And for most characters "your thing" is "press one button once".
I don't play this game anymore, but judging from this thread, don't you still have to guess between "setup" and "delayed setup"?

I shudder to think what it would be like if this community had to figure out counters to things organically by playing games at the arcade.
I think it has a lot more to do with the dynamics of okizeme and traditional pressure vs. resets and assist gimmicks in pressure.

In traditional okizeme, everyone knows what's coming (since you're knocked down, it's pretty obvious *when* you need to make your guess), and what their options are regardless of game (I can pick a direction to block, or DP, or reversal backdash in some games, or maybe wakeup throw in some games), and what they beat. Once they block the meaty or the crossup and they're in pressure, the options are still just "block, tech/counterthrow, DP, stick out a non-DP in larger gap" vs. "high/low mixup, throw, frametrap, bait the reversal", with any game-specific "while in blockstun" options for the defender. Meanwhile, in SG, if your opponent knows one piece of tech that you don't (likey even among advanced players), then you don't know when you have to make the guess, or what the options in the guessing game even are. Compared to non-Marvel arcade games, that means that there's a crapton more specific trivia required to even continue playing the game once you've been touched once, and I've even seen Marvel players claim that SG makes it too difficult for the defender between easier restands, better throws, and custom assists (I haven't played Marvel myself, so I can't vouch for the veracity of this, but I've seen it stated by enough Marvel players that I suspect that it's true that it requires significantly more knowledge of character-specific trivia to defend successfully in SG).
 
mcpeanuts said:
I thought M Beat Extend was only strike invincible?

L is only strike, M and H are both, people just rarely use M lol
 
Pickles said:
L is only strike, M and H are both, people just rarely use M lol
Haha really? I have to update the Big Band compendium now. Frayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
 
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Training mode frame data says otherwise.

L vulnerable one frame then hit invuln M is hit only H is both.

There is no instance of big band's hurtboxes (during M beat extend) turning white or yellow which would be avoiding throws. Just light blue.
 
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damn rip me
 
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mpgame99 said:
Bella- Mash j.lp (it's kinda hard but works)
Bella can elbow drop which hits both characters and is significantly easier.
 
Grunt said:
Bella can elbow drop which hits both characters and is significantly easier.
It was the first thing I tried with bella and it didn't work so maybe your timing on the setup was off.
 
Kai said:
Dealing with this setup is the kind of thing that's above my level, and always will be.

This is the exact mentality that will keep you down and unwilling to learn more things.

Just fucking press a button when you're descending. You know how to press a button, right? It requires the same setup every time. You have eyes, right?

Look at the screen and press a button.

This is not rocket science.

This is a setup that requires a counter. A counter that requires ESOTERIC GAME KNOWLEDGE, but Mike Z has already done all of your thinking and lab work for you.

The hard part has already been done - Finding esoteric game knowledge to beat a setup that's hard to deal with. However, Mike Z cheated by being the game designer so you basically get the information for free.

Fucking learn the counter that was handed to you on a silver platter, and stop making up reasons to not learn things like "that will always be above my level" which is never fucking true unless you have ACTUAL MEDICAL ISSUES HOLDING YOU BACK (and even then fkn look at brolylegs) and is amongst the weakest shit I have ever heard good lord
 
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mpgame99 said:
It was the first thing I tried with bella and it didn't work so maybe your timing on the setup was off.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that affects what moves you can use before you land from 2mp is the hitstun of 2mp itself, so I'm not sure how you would even do that wrong.
But regardless, here's what I got.
Am I doing it wrong? I guess I'm only doing this setup based on what people are saying in this thread, but it seems right to me.
 
Dagwood said:
i think you're talking his words a little too seriously

I don't think he's taking his role as a competitive player of the game seriously if he wants something removed because he doesn't think he'll be good enough to deal with it when a solution was explicitly spelt out to him.

If someone dares reply "yeah but what if he's not really that serious of a competitor" then HE SHOULDN'T BE SUGGESTING BALANCE FIXES
 
ClarenceMage said:
I don't think he's taking his role as a competitive player of the game seriously if he wants something removed because he doesn't think he'll be good enough to deal with it when a solution was explicitly spelt out to him.

If someone dares reply "yeah but what if he's not really that serious of a competitor" then HE SHOULDN'T BE SUGGESTING BALANCE FIXES
bruh
Kai said:
I'm just gonna chalk this up to me not being good enough at SG to understand the consensus.
we're past it bruh
 
The thing you quoted is in response to Dagwood telling me im taking what you said too seriously -

the real thing i'm blasting you on is "i will never be good enough" because god dammit how is that not the most pre-emptively self-defeating attitude
 
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ClarenceMage said:
The thing you quoted is in response to Dagwood telling me im taking what you said too seriously -

the real thing i'm blasting you on is "i will never be good enough" because god dammit how is that not the most pre-emptively self-defeating attitude
Do you really think there's something wrong with me realistically comparing my skill level to that of the game's top players? Me, a married 30yr old father of three with a 45hr/week day job, modest music, acting, and game development careers, and countless other smaller time commitments, against high school and college students?

I think it's sillier that you believe I'm supposed to reasonably be able to seriously compete in fighters :P Not gonna happen. I try my best and have fun, but that'll only take you so far. Reality. And that's why I basically said, "nvm I don't know what I'm talking about." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
We're all skipping the fact that if you jump out of the command throw at the last second you can ALWAYS block or poke Excella because of the unblockable protection, which I am not sure WHY we are skipping...

mcpeanuts said:
I thought M Beat Extend was only strike invincible?
You is right, I is tired. H Beat works, and that was probably supposed to be L Cymbals, since they hop.

Cynical said:
I think it has a lot more to do with the dynamics of okizeme and traditional pressure vs. resets and assist gimmicks in pressure.
Yeah, sure, resets aren't okizeme, but resets exist in all sorts of games.
And the "if your enemy knows one piece of tech" thing is still true, regardless of game. I win tons of MvC2 matches because I play characters nobody knows gimmicks with.
(I don't know if you're talking about MvC3 players, in which case, MvC3 is significantly easier compared to MvC2 in many ways, including mixups because they give you air techs.)

There's no more character-specific knowledge required to play SG at a decent level than there is to play 3S, or GGAC, or MvC2. However, more is presented to you up-front in SG, as opposed to taking years to acquire in other games, so it can seem like there is more to know because by the time you get there in other games you don't realize what you know since the community was learning along with you. The amount of character/matchup specific stuff I can reel off for 3s or GG is way more than for SG...

I mean, mostly it's just an excuse to not play. When you don't really want to, you'll find anything. Although I have heard a lot of MvC3 players say the same thing about MvC2.
 
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@Kai What little time you have that you spend on sg can always be spent better.

Like, for instance, some time spent on learning how to defend against a setup that requires you to look at a thing then press a button, especially if other people are using it on you. This is not an issue of mysterious "good enough", this is a discrete situation that you can learn.

If you've got a full schedule, and you're not making the most out of the time you have to play/practise a game you enter tournaments for, then that's not an issue of how much time you don't have available to you.

High school/College students that put in a lot of shitty time towards the game will be better than someone who has a full schedule and puts in shitty time towards the game, but someone with a full schedule that puts in gdlk efficient learning time will shit on high school/college students who just spend all day on ranked mashing supers at neutral.

I am pretty sure you aren't using your time with SG as effectively as you can, which is NOT a jab at you because time management for competitive gaming is a difficult and important skill that everyone should be learning and working on.
 
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Mike_Z said:
We're all skipping the fact that if you jump out of the command throw at the last second you can ALWAYS block or poke Excella because of the unblockable protection, which I am not sure WHY we are skipping...
Doesn't this depend on the timing of the assist call though?
I've been trying stuff and I am able to block Excellabella only when it's called very fast, but slight delay makes it so jumping off the floor, out of Fukua's throw, gets me caught by Excellabella.
 
Grunt said:
Doesn't this depend on the timing of the assist call though?
I've been trying stuff and I am able to block Excellabella only when it's called very fast, but slight delay makes it so jumping off the floor, out of Fukua's throw, gets me caught by Excellabella.
Yes, it does, but it's still an option. The protection is longer than a j.L startup for everyone.
If you are protected, you can jump-block.
If you are not protected, you have enough time to jump and poke her.

So there are options for dodging the throw before you land, there are options for beating the throw ONCE you land, and there are options for defense if you jump.
Despite all this, there is a thread complaining about the setup...
 
Mike_Z said:
Yes, it does, but it's still an option. The protection is longer than a j.L startup for everyone.
Once I'm done setting this monitor up imma go test this again, cuz I was still getting grabbed as Bella, but maybe I just suck.
I do suck

Mike_Z said:
Despite all this, there is a thread complaining about the setup...
Well, it looks like some of us were trying to turn it into a tech thread, but I guess this is the bug report forum.
 
ClarenceMage said:
@Kai What little time you have that you spend on sg can always be spent better.

Like, for instance, some time spent on learning how to defend against a setup that requires you to look at a thing then press a button, especially if other people are using it on you. This is not an issue of mysterious "good enough", this is a discrete situation that you can learn.

If you've got a full schedule, and you're not making the most out of the time you have to play/practise a game you enter tournaments for, then that's not an issue of how much time you don't have available to you.

High school/College students that put in a lot of shitty time towards the game will be better than someone who has a full schedule and puts in shitty time towards the game, but someone with a full schedule that puts in gdlk efficient learning time will shit on high school/college students who just spend all day on ranked mashing supers at neutral.

I am pretty sure you aren't using your time with SG as effectively as you can, which is NOT a jab at you because time management for competitive gaming is a difficult and important skill that everyone should be learning and working on.
Define "spending time better".

Pretty sure that someone who has a full time job and a family isn't going to defeat a student that is spending his time well, period. So why bother grinding shit out in training mode (a process which is tedious to the point of being borderline intolerable) when you're not going to win any majors anyways? Seems like a pretty shitty use of time to me, frankly.
 
Man, I managed to poke Bella ONCE and I'm not sure what I did, cuz even on the same replay I couldn't get it again.
But whatever, I like the dodging stuff better, it seems easier.
dekillsage said:
HERE WE GO
Get ready for a showstopper?
 
Grunt said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that affects what moves you can use before you land from 2mp is the hitstun of 2mp itself, so I'm not sure how you would even do that wrong.
But regardless, here's what I got.
Am I doing it wrong? I guess I'm only doing this setup based on what people are saying in this thread, but it seems right to me.

That's similar to the result I was getting in Training -- Is this the golden key that everyone is talking about? It doesn't seem bad at all at first glance, but again I'm thinking we may be doing it wrong.
 
sage what have you done
 
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dekillsage said:
Good stuff to those who went into training mode to figure out how to beat this gimmick set up lmaooo
Definitely surprised that people are losing it over that one set up when the point of the team is to do this...
http://www.twitch.tv/zsonicfox/v/6785394?t=1h03m15s
Too funny
Twitch archives don't work for me on this computer but I'm going to guess that's the TOD with Double level 5.
 
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I tested the setup with beowulf and tried M blitzer. The first time I did it I was able to M Blitzer hitting both cerebella and fukua. Then I accidentally erased the setup and redid it. This time I couldn't M Blitzer because excellabella just grabbed me out of the start up. So I had to rely on the unblockable protection which I could do somewhat consistently if I timed my jump with cerebella's assist landing.
 
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