Full Undizzy Sequences - Community Poll.

[Saske]

Game-wide things I am open to doing because they directly affect only the problem area:
- [revised] All non-super hits at 240+ Undizzy are automatically scaled to minimum damage. If you want to reset into meter use, I have no problem with that doing real damage. This also basically doesn't affect existing combos, since by the time you get to 240 Undizzy you're already at minimum scaling so the new rule would change nothing.

- [revised] Minimum meter gain for the attacker and maximum meter gain for the victim when the victim is above 240 Undizzy.

I like these 2 changes together the best. They directly address the problem while making the least drastic changes to the overall game.

I'd also like to try every single one of the character specific changes, especially the beowulf one. The Canis Major combos are pretty ridiculous right now. Although, the game-wide changes might help mitigate this, so who knows.

 

[HiroProtagonest]

On top of the combo stage 2--> 5 characters like squigly at max undizzy would suffer the most from trying to do resets as well. I think the scaling afterwards of 240 is fine since your combo should rely BEFORE 240 not after, but not so much the combo stages. As an assist id still like to see excellebella as a mid but thats just my 2 cents. If characters can keep going after max undizzy is going to get nerfed, its something Id like to see as a universal thing (aka beowulf slams, squigly silver chord big band etc etc)

I'm with Sonic concerning changing the combo stage to 5 during a full undizzy reset, as that affects specific characters, rather the game as a whole.

I like these 2 changes together the best. They directly address the problem while making the least drastic changes to the overall game.

Okay, NOW I realize what the Stage 5 chain would do. Yeah, that would affect specific characters more than others for no intentional balance reason, not just prevent assists.

 

[havick9]

How about extra nerfing to M/H.A-train assist at max undizzy too?

This thing does 10k 3v3

 

[missingno]

-All non-super hits at 240+ undizzy being minimum scaling. I think this change would be a mistake, since outside of a few characters, damage at max undizzy isn't obscene. It would also remove the value difference between throws and low/high mixups, since they would all do minimum damage anyway, making the mixup decisions less weighted in risk/reward and more on randomness.

This is a valid point, though your solution of tracking extra undizzy past 240 seems a bit complicated to me, given that's not currently tracked in any way. Perhaps instead of minimum scaling, a more elegant solution would be a separate damage reduction, like how 2E+ made green burstable hits deal half damage (stacked on top of regular combo scaling).

 

[ClarenceMage]

Perhaps instead of minimum scaling, a more elegant solution would be a separate damage reduction, like how 2E+ made green burstable hits deal half damage (stacked on top of regular combo scaling).

Increasing amounts of separate damage reduction would keep in theme with max the green burst damage change, so that sounds like a good suggestion to me!

 

[PME]

I never really had a problem with specific assists like Excellebella or A-Train, since you're giving up one of those characters' other assist options in exchange for combo extensions and the like. I always thought that was a fair trade, as nerfing specifically those assists would hurt other players wanting to get creative with their combos.

 

[Spencer]

I should note that I have a bias toward solos and putting the game back to the neutral which may be anathema to SGs design:

- Automatically move to Combo Stage 5 as soon as any hit is landed at Stage 2+ at 240+ Undizzy. So 2->5 or 3->5, even in the middle of a chain, thereby restricting you to exactly one unburstable chain including throws in that situation, minus jumpins.

This might be too harsh though, but it would be fun to try out. It doesn't at all eliminate the reset game, but it does basically mean the end of the full combo into reset game. For those that are strongly against it, who does it affect more than others? I do think this is a more elegant way to handle it than just making max damage scaling which seems to me to be an even more harsh punishment for getting to 240. I also don't think the meter gain would be too helpful (relative to losing a character), but I could be way off about that. The meter gain would be stupid strong for a solo player though :-)

Character-specific things I'm partially open to doing that do not just affect Undizzy:
- Band can't use his taunted supers in the same combo where he gains the taunt. Even as a Band player I actually wanted to do this before, and forgot. >.<
- A-Train can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into. Band is the only exception in the game here, Buer/Excella/etc already do this.

I vote for these character specific changes (alongside any other changes... if any). The first because you wanted it gone... I would assume for a reason. The second because it would maintain parity with the rest of the game.

 

[Nine]

I don't see a point in changing the game now, especially with the possibility of more bugs being introduced into the game with no way to fix them the moment the patch goes through.

In my opinion, I think that most responses to these 3v3 1 reset kills have been reactionary and lazy (no discussion or wider effort to try and adapt to these meta developments, I haven't seen any discussions that are available to the public SGC).

I really think that people should stop complaining and actually adapt in the video game.

 

[dead]

I'd be happy to see any changes that encourage resets. All the game wide changes sound great to me.

 

[MegaMix]

Regularly I wouldn't care, but it does unease me how much damage one can do after that Undizzy. It's a change I can live without, but I'd prefer to see something done. Also, you might as well Mike Z since this is literally the last chance you have.

My biggest issues weren't the 1 reset kills, but the 1 reset kills at max undizzy. It made undizzy feel a little pointless when you played certain team combinations so any changes to make max undizzy a bit worse for the attacker is what I'm voting for.

Yep.

 

[BigEffinDud]

Imagine how many times you would have to reset an incoming character with low-ish damage characters like Parasoul, Robo, or Fukua if the combo stage was automatically set to 5 at max undizzy lmao. Minimum scaling at 240+, the unchained A-Train, and Beo grabs, and less damage OR length on Excellebella pls (:

 

[guitalex2007]

I'm all for:
- Min Scaling >240 or chain 5 on reset >240
- The character changes posted for Band/Beo/Bella
- Maybe the sliding thing, but I'm not sure about that

I'm not feeling:
- Changing the max health
- Doing nothing :p

Also hi.

 

[Cadenza]

Came here to say i would like Anything BUT setting combo stage to 5.

 

[Spencer]

Imagine how many times you would have to reset an incoming character with low-ish damage characters like Parasoul, Robo, or Fukua if the combo stage was automatically set to 5 at max undizzy lmao. Minimum scaling at 240+, the unchained A-Train, and Beo grabs, and less damage OR length on Excellebella pls (:

That would be if you were only to reset at >240 dizzy. You can reset before that point without having to worry about stage 5.

Minimum scaling at 240+ sounds more harsh to me than level 5. Does anyone have damage numbers for a full minimum scaled combo?

 

[Midiman]

I really think that people should stop complaining and actually adapt in the video game.

They do demonstrate a symptom of Undizzy that I have never liked, which this clip shows off very well:

Namely, that you're still able to do a pretty good chunk of damage above 240 Undizzy, as well as lead into setups.

Sounds like you should just adapt instead of complaining, Mike.

What would you adapt to, anyways? If you get hit with something like this, what exactly is there to adapt to? That my opponent just got me into a setup even though I'm at max undizzy. What do you suppose I'm supposed to do to retaliate against this, that isn't not get hit.

This is not "haha just adapt", this is "This is eventually the thing EVERYONE will do"...

 

[ClarenceMage]

What would you adapt to, anyways? If you get hit with something like this, what exactly is there to adapt to?

Refer to my post for situations where that situation is inapplicable, and ways it can be mitigated.

"This is eventually the thing EVERYONE will do"

Only if there aren't any upsides to picking Not Those Teams, and Not Those Assists, for which there are many.

 

[Red Witch]

Refer to my post for situations where that situation is inapplicable, and ways it can be mitigated.



Only if there aren't any upsides to picking Not Those Teams, and Not Those Assists, for which there are many.

We pickin' fights now?

The fact that there are other options doesn't mitigate the abuse of undizzy, which seems to be the main thing Mike is trying to remedy. Nonchalantly saying that "Oh, but there are a bunch of reason why you won't see this every game" doesn't mitigate the fact that the game is near SDE levels of long combos.

Undizzys original purpose was to eradicate the option on long-winded combos that just nuke a characters health and promote using resets and give players a chance to block. With current mechanics, we have the possibility of a Trio wiping the floor of a Duo starting with only 1 meter.

The only thing I had against changing the game at this point was a potential forever bug, but in order for the game to stay healthy and make sure that "Not Those Teams" have an equal chance to shine when utilized properly its a necessary evil. And there are several players who would gladly trade a more useful neutral tool to toss a character in the dumpster for only one measly freaking meter. Mind you, all the have to do is catch someone on incoming and reset them ONCE. With 1! METER!

-------------------------------------

The best contribution we, as a community, can make is to make the absolute most of the 3 day beta and do our best to find any bugs we can that may come out of this. That way game goes strong and we can be the happy-go-lucky SG players that we are.

 

[Cadenza]

We pickin' fights now?

He hardly was. Be calm.

In any case, If nothing is to be done about the UD Mechanics right now then so be it. but if we do have the chance then I would gladly install Beta again to see how it fleshes out.

Be nice everyone!

 

[Red Witch]

He hardly was. Be calm.
Be nice everyone!

it was sarcasm. heh. Internet is hard.

 

[Mike_Z]

Let's prevent some devolving:
- Again, I don't have a problem with 1-reset kills in 3v3 from 0 Undizzy. My problem is with what's possible at 240 Undizzy.
- I agree the response to the 3v3 stuff has been largely lazy. You CAN block it, ya know.

-Your character that facilitates this strategy could have been snapped in and murdered.

This, too.
However, arguing that there are ways to prevent the tech by playing well is not the same as the tech being impossible.
Yep, you can certainly choose Not Those Teams and Not Those Assists. This doesn't somehow magically make Those Teams and Those Assists unable to do the thing, though. The other major bit is that it isn't just Those Teams, it's most teams in 3v3. (The exact same setup is possible with Val/Axe, and does more damage, just the Horus assist call was easier to place. All she needed was something to allow a poison load and not OTG, I literally just picked random assists.)

outside of a few characters, damage at max undizzy isn't obscene

At 1.0, with zero optimization, 1 bar, and no other resources:
Robo gets 4.3 (c.LK s.MP s.MK s.HK Cannon, and yes that's more than all the multihit junk)
Parasoul gets 5.2 (c.LK c.MK HPHP LShot s.MP HPHP Pillar bikes F+HP)
Fortune gets 5.2 (c.LK c.MK s.HP LRekka-Slide c.MK s.HP HRekka x3 CSF)
Eliza gets 5.2 (c.LK c.MP c.HP Dive c.HK DPLM LoS)
Fukua gets 5.2 (c.LK s.MK s.HK MShadow [LShadow] s.MK c.HP ]shadow[ HDrill superdrill)
Filia gets 5.3 (c.LK s.MK s.HP j.HK ad j.LK HP HK Hball Fenrir)
Painwheel gets 5.5 (c.LK c.MK c.HP fly whiff DF+button c.MK c.HP LBuer Crawl)
Val gets 5.5 (c.LK s.MK c.HP /\ j.HP HBypass dash HP MBypass, ground Flatline)
Squigly gets 5.5 (c.LK c.MK HPHP stance c.MK HPHP Chord Daisy c.HK)
Cerebella gets 5.8 (c.LK c.MP s.HP Kanchou s.MK s.HK Copter Dynamo)
Peacock gets 6.0 (c.LK c.MP c.MK s.HP LBang c.MK c.HP s.HK HBang x3 Argus)
Band gets 6.5 (c.LK c.MK c.HP EBrake c.MK s.HK HTrain SSJ)
I skipped some chars it's late.
In 3v3 that 5.2k is 6.7k, and 5.5 is over 7k. Pretty much everyone except Robo can do 15.5 in 2 combos, because these numbers are without assists etc.

As for scaling damage down as Undizzy goes up above 240, that doesn't actually solve the initial problem. :^P

- @Tomo009 Peacock could do a lot after 240, but it would cost multiple bars, which I'm fine with. You had to get those resources.
- @alexpi It's actually easier to test the game-wide things, believe it or not. MUCH easier. Fixing A-Train will be really difficult. :^S
- @Aden Lowering the Undizzy limit by any amount makes Big Band BETTER. It lowers the damage other characters are capable of, but he can do 7.5 with 80 undizzy. So yeah, not happening.

I feel like the whole "grabs don't scale until after the grab" that makes beos grab useful wouldn't matter anymore if all non super hits were max scaled at max undizzy

Luckily, it is possible to reset before you reach max Undizzy. :^P

 

[Aden]

Lowering the Undizzy limit by any amount makes Big Band BETTER. It lowers the damage other characters are capable of, but he can do 7.5 with 80 undizzy. So yeah, not happening

I should have been clearer I guess. I know a large part of why we didn't do the lower undizzy experiment was because it effectively required a ton of balance changes and Big Band was even mentioned specifically. When I mentioned lowering undizzy I meant with everything that would have to come with it, which I understand is not an option at this point.

 

[Adeveis]

I have no problem with max undizzy only giving 1 chain before burst. It could enforce people to think about removing that undizzy from their opponent either with a burst bait or a sweep to make them want to spend some of their undizzy to ground tech.

 

[Mike_Z]

Testing max Undizzy min scaling to find obvious bugs here, it has the interesting property that basically any max-Undizzy combo into a Lv1 now does equal or less damage than just doing the Lv1 by itself, because you scale the Lv1 by more damage than you add. All the previous combos do 2.5-3k, including Band's...and c.LK (or other single hit) ->super seems to be optimized, dealing 3k-4k. Robo can actually compete with everyone else.

I kinda like this, because it makes confirms into max damage much harder in that situation.
I don't think 1 chain before burst is as necessary with this. It's really pretty harsh.

 

[Turvon]

I think excellabella should be left alone, the assist isnt what the problem is. It will affect Vals ability to gain 2 vials midcombo which if you use that assist (like i do) its a vital part of your gameplan

 

[Turvon]

He hardly was. Be calm.

In any case, If nothing is to be done about the UD Mechanics right now then so be it. but if we do have the chance then I would gladly install Beta again to see how it fleshes out.

Be nice everyone!

Same

 

[Zidiane]

if things change they will go into the Beta for a MAXIMUM OF THREE DAYS, and if there are new bugs introduced as a result those bugs will be present FOREVER.

-All non-super hits at 240+ Undizzy are automatically scaled to minimum damage.
- [revised] Minimum meter gain for the attacker and maximum meter gain for the victim when the victim is above 240 Undizzy.
- Band can't use his taunted supers in the same combo where he gains the taunt.
- A-Train can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into.
- Pummel Horse can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into.
- Excellebella assist scales to minimum damage or has a shorter animation.

I'm okay with these things.

The shorter excellebella might be good. People would need to choose between some resources and continuing the combo or max resources and return to neutral. I think that's more interesting than always getting max resources and continuing the combo.

 

[Huffy]

Any change that makes the game more neutral-focused is fine by me.
The problem I have with these is that they're an indirect buff to solos and duos.
In 3v2 you'll reach max undizzy a lot in resets just because they have so much health, so I think another change to duos/solos would be needed to compensate.

 

[HiroProtagonest]

Any change that makes the game more neutral-focused is fine by me.
The problem I have with these is that they're an indirect buff to solos and duos.
In 3v2 you'll reach max undizzy a lot in resets just because they have so much health, so I think another change to duos/solos would be needed to compensate.

As opposed to being mostly training wheels?

So maybe a trio isn't always the best pick, that's fine with me, duos and solos exist. Do your dang research. :^\

I would be even saltier about solo Bellas online tho

 

[Huffy]

As opposed to being mostly training wheels?

Duos are good already

 

[Spencer]

I agree that it would be a buff to solos. But, unless these changes were to push solos past teams in terms of viability, there is no real reason to fret unless there is some deep seeded philosophy that solos necessarily should be weaker than teams.

I won't speak to how this will affect duos though. I don't play duo enough to really sweat it. Someone like @NCV or @Midiman might be able to provide some insight there. But I also don't think MikeZ is ignorant of how these changes will affect MUs involving other team sizes either.

 

[Zidiane]

The problem I have with these is that they're an indirect buff to solos and duos.
In 3v2 you'll reach max undizzy a lot in resets just because they have so much health, so I think another change to duos/solos would be needed to compensate.

The majority of the best teams and the best players use trios, I don't think an indirect buff to the other guys like this is the end of the world. Duo's still struggle really hard if you catch a happy birthday and a lot of solos still don't have a lot of options in a lot of situations. Trios can avoid max undizzy reset nerfs by just doing shorter combos before they reset; You already get more meter and give the opponent less doing quick resets anyway, the only reason to do full combos while you're trio is if you can kill or you want positioning. You can also do 235 Undizzy combo into a reset, then just keep looping from there until you can kill.

I think it's worth trying in the beta as quickly as we can and getting solid stats on what can/cannot kill with undizzy changes.

 

[ninja-nutria]

I assume this damage reduction wouldn't apply to supers? (edit: that balance idea has since been changed) That aside, reducing the damage you can get from a combo at max undizzy (whether it's by reducing combo length or directly reducing damage) sounds great to me. Peacock/Beam currently deals 7k damage in the corner from a 240 undizzy start, which feels kinda crazy.

(if anyone cares: sLP cMP cMK cHP sHK hold L item drop, OTG sLK cMP cMK cHP sHK L george + beam assist, release level 3 item, argus)

^ If you change anything i would go with this, real problem here is, damage at max undizzy, 1 reset kills are ok.

will try to record later but i can tod with my lenny reset with bb giant step assist + 1 argus pea/bb/val

 

[cloudKing211]

Solos and duos are not training wheels nor are they being buffed immensely here (healing was that buff).

They are an *option*

A huge part of this game is the variety of team options and strategies you can use with the limited pool of characters. As we have seen, this game has come a long way from its start with 8 characters. So use training mode to find the optimal way that *you* play. I know I am.

 

[HiroProtagonest]

Solos and duos are not training wheels nor are they being buffed immensely here (healing was that buff).

I mean, I don't think solos being training wheels is a bad thing. It's an effective mechanic to speed the learning process.

Swiftfox already plays a duo, too. As well as a couple others who get fairly far with different duos, but that Peacock/Bella team is a thing.

 

[Adeveis]

Every team size has it's weakness. Trio has little health and usually lose one character in two hits but in exchange for the utility you get for having multiple characters. Solo doesn't the utility a team does but makes up for it with damage output and health pool. Duo has a bit of both worlds but nowhere near as much health and damage and not as many characters to work with. The only reason people feel like trio is better is because you get two assists and "more chances" to make mistakes. Unfortunately people either have been ignoring the glaring weakness a trio has or perhaps were just unaware of it probably the latter seeing as how all these "one guess death" videos have been popping up.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I'm for:

-Changes to Excellabella
-Minimum damage scaling with full undizzy
-Big Band can't use a tauntboosted super in the same combo he used a taunt
-A Train is burstable when it is not chained into (it's an exception for no real reason)

I don't like the changes to stage 2 straight to stage 5 and Beowulf's EX moves being burstable simply because they A) change combos a bit too much for the last patch and more importantly B) Have the potential to mess things up further by introducing new bugs that will never be fixed.

If Excellabella gets minimum scaling changed or a shorter animation (which I would prefer), it also kind of helps fix Beowulf's absurd tauntboosted damage output too, because you wouldn't have enough time for free taunts in combos. I feel like Band and Beowulf should have to earn their powered up moves and not get them for free in combos but that's just me.

Mainly it seems like these things are possible due to "exceptions" to the way Skullgirls works. So fixing those exceptions and also making max undizzy combos do less damage seem like the best fixes to me.

 

[ninja-nutria]

Every team size has it's weakness. Trio has little health and usually lose one character in two hits but in exchange for the utility you get for having multiple characters. Solo doesn't the utility a team does but makes up for it with damage output and health pool. Duo has a bit of both worlds but nowhere near as much health and damage and not as many characters to work with. The only reason people feel like trio is better is because you get two assists and "more chances" to make mistakes. Unfortunately people either have been ignoring the glaring weakness a trio has or perhaps were just unaware of it probably the latter seeing as how all these "one guess death" videos have been popping up.

i mean, ive been playing solopeacock since day one withouth complaining.

there is nothing wrong with being solo, it actually makes you pay more attention to spacing and defense.

 

[alexpi]

I mean, I don't think solos being training wheels is a bad thing. It's an effective mechanic to speed the learning process.

Swiftfox already plays a duo, too. As well as a couple others who get fairly far with different duos, but that Peacock/Bella team is a thing.

TJ's on trio now

 

[HiroProtagonest]

TJ's on trio now

Oh, he is? I was going off Combo Breaker and CEOtaku 2016.

 

[Wrestlemania]

- [revised] All non-super hits at 240+ Undizzy are automatically scaled to minimum damage. If you want to reset into meter use, I have no problem with that doing real damage. This also basically doesn't affect existing combos, since by the time you get to 240 Undizzy you're already at minimum scaling so the new rule would change nothing.
- [revised] Minimum meter gain for the attacker and maximum meter gain for the victim when the victim is above 240 Undizzy.

Character-specific things I'm partially open to doing that do not just affect Undizzy:
- Band can't use his taunted supers in the same combo where he gains the taunt. Even as a Band player I actually wanted to do this before, and forgot. >.<
- A-Train can give Undizzy bursts when not chained into. Band is an exception in the game here, Buer/Excella/etc already do this.

These get my vote, brother. Getting big damage after 240 Undizzy is like distracting the Ref when you gottem in the turnbuckle justa pummel 'em more. That don't jive. I'm also diggin the A-Train change; all men should be equal in the ring.
Arooooooo!