Full Undizzy Sequences - Community Poll.

[Elda Taluda]

After playing a few hours this evening I've got to say I'm fine with the changes in the beta. Being on both ends of 240+ undizzy for offense/defense on incoming seemed to be fine to me. I wasn't heavily punished for continuing pressure and I wasn't losing tons of health for not being able to defend myself.

I'll admit though, being conscious of the undizzy change made me try to play a more reset based game than I usually do (which I probably shouldn't have for testing?) just to play as the new version "should" be played. So while I wasn't able to tell exactly how much the changes affect my usual play style, I never felt like I had to make a sweeping change to in order to adjust to the patch. Which is more than I can say about earlier patches like when Undizzy was implemented -and then when the cap was decreased. Both of those patches made me feel like I was playing something entirely different and I wasn't very keen on relearning combo routes... But I persevered and I can without a doubt say SG is better for it now.

I feel this patch will be much in the same vein and it's not nearly as drastic a change in my opinion. This doesn't (majorly) hamper anyone's current combos or reset options. It just changes how players will decide on when to go all in - instead of always doing so.

 

[Zidiane]

During the matches I played I usually could do all my normal stuff, but occasionally I'd need to do lvl3 instead of Dynamo, or need to do one additional reset to secure a kill. Barely noticed the j.hp bella nerf in gameplay. It felt like I was a little more durable than normal as a solo 1v3, and felt like I had a healthy amount of time to play.

 

[HiroProtagonest]

Time's up, let's see what happens!

Or is Mike using the fourth-day glitch? <_< >_>

 

[RemiKz]

So didn't get to play the beta too much. With that out of the way, I think my biggest gripe with the change is incoming characters that were at 240+ undizzy felt like they got too much free breathing room, both when I was either on offensive or defensive side. That was probably the 1 thing I really wasn't a fan of, on top of just having to completely readjust the way I usually play the game.

My bias aside, I'm still not comfortable going through with such a big change after such little time testing. I'm mostly fine with the character specific changes but I'm very uneasy about the undizzy changes.

 

[Mike_Z]

Do the character specific changes not prevent this from happening? Without the undizzy scaling changes being applied, there should be about 2000 total damage shaved off from these 2 sequences.

They prevent the video, but not the concept, since they are character specific.

And it's funny, I'm way less unsure about the Undizzy stuff than I am about the character-specific stuff.

@Milton_JP
Anything?

 

[RemiKz]

They prevent the video, but not the concept, since they are character specific.

And it's funny, I'm way less unsure about the Undizzy stuff than I am about the character-specific stuff.

How many characters outside of bella/bb can pull off the concept after some of the character specific changes? I only ask because I have not had enough time to really test everything myself.

Are you unsure about what the character changes do themselves or potential bugs they can bring up?

 

[Mike_Z]

How many characters outside of bella/bb can pull off the concept after some of the character specific changes? I only ask because I have not had enough time to really test everything myself.

In 3v3? EVERYONE with a sliding knockdown, and most characters without one if you just include resets. In 3v3 with 240 Undizzy:
Fortune/Axe can do it in 2. Double/Pinion can do it in 2. Val/H Chair can do it in 2. Hell, Squigly/Bypass with no Seria has a meterless 6.4k repeatable sliding knockdown setup, and Squigly BY HERSELF with K charge has a 5.8k repeatable meterless sliding etc. I was just picking random characters at this point...two of those into two supers is dead. Considering it's the same setup into itself, and it is doable at any amount of Undizzy, that's a maximum of 3 touches per lifebar no matter what your situation is, back into themselves. That's about the same as with zero undizzy! Changing that to what is currently in the Beta (55% scaling) goes from 6.4k to 3.5k, which means at max Undizzy five or six touches, but if you let them play it goes back to two or three.
The point is to slightly reduce the reward for the opponent not getting to play as much. If you let them play, even a little bit, you get the same reward as before. And heck, Peacock is one of the characters that is least affected because of Argus scaling. :^P

Are you unsure about what the character changes do themselves or potential bugs they can bring up?

It's that I am sure about the undizzy change, because I know exactly what it does. Or rather, I am pretty certain what the future would be if I didn't do anything.
Character changes scare me more, because those can have severe unintended consequences once people experiment more.

 

[Huffy]

I think the scaling at max undizzy should be more severe.

Also I still think peacock should be changed in some way, she gets a lot of damage through chip bypassing this change altogether, Argus is unaffected by the super scaling and instead of dhcing she can just loop Argus.

 

[Mike_Z]

Because of higher minimum damage on Lv3s and Lv5s, Peacock's Argus [Lenny] Argus actually does about the same damage as Lv3s, and A/L/A/L/A does less than all the Lv5s. The two-bar version does about the same damage as catheads by itself can do, and certainly less than Counter->combo. She has a 4-bar version which does more than most Lv3s, but not more than Lv3->Lv1 or Lv1->Lv3->Lv1.

And, in case you missed it, this change doesn't even come into play in the vast majority of normally-played matches that most players have had thus far. Hell, I just played Liam 14 games and it came up once.

 

[Milton_JP]

@MikeZ
Penpen said "if he nerfs BB's attacks, doesn't it solve the problem?".
If I remember right, it doesn't solve the problem. is it right?

Remember 3v3 has extra damage, so these aren't restricted to these characters. In testing I found 3v3 versions of this without DHCs using Val/Dive of Horus/X, Filia/LnL/X, Fortune/Axe/X, and Squigly/H Danger/X...which were all the teams I tested. :^P

I might as well translate the above.

Also, I translated the your sentence that you gave me and I uploaded it to GoogleDrive.
(with @NaminoriTwister 's help)
I hope the Japanese will understand why the changes are happening.
Thank you.

 

[Mr Peck]

Argus is unaffected by the super scaling and instead of dhcing she can just loop Argus.

I just tested the damage you get from ending a combo with argus lenny argus, compared to other common combo ender level 3s. I also included roughly how much meter it builds for the opponent (higher numbers = worse!). Hopefully this info is useful for people!

Big Band level 3 (midscreen): 4620-5059 damage, 25% meter for opponent (depending on char height and distance)
Peacock argus lenny argus: 3865-4105 damage, 60% meter for opponent (depending on char height and laser RNG)
Robo level 3 cannon: 3825 damage, 25% meter for opponent
Parasoul level 3: 3726 damage, no meter for opponent (what?)
Double level 3: 3690 damage, 20% meter for opponent
Eliza level 3: 3172 damage, 30% meter for opponent

And for level 5s:

Double level 5 (corner combo into explosion ender): 7309 damage, 50% meter for opponent
Big Band level 5: 6875 damage, 25% meter for opponent
Robo level 5: 6600 damage, 20% meter for opponent
Peacock argus lenny argus lenny argus: 6356-6550 damage, 90% meter for opponent

So she does less damage than big band's level 3 but slightly higher than Robo/Para/Double, and she does slightly less damage for 5 bars than all combo ender level 5s, all while giving the opponent twice as much meter as other characters. It's also worth mentioning that Peacock loses 100-200 damage from her normal combo ender by going into an ender that gives her enough time to do lenny>argus, so that kind of evens things out.

 

[Zidiane]

Parasoul level 3: 3726 damage, no meter for opponent (what?)

So, since I was curious if there was anything else that didn't give meter like this, I checked all the supers. Not sure how much of this is intended.

Fukua lvl 5 and Val's counter super (even with poison) seem to give no meter. Fortune, Fukua, Bella, Beo, and Filia's lvl 3's gives very, very little meter (beo's 3 wolf super), like less meter than some of each of their special moves. Beowulf's arm super, Parasoul's sniper super, Peacock's Lenny, and Val's lvl 5 give incredibly tiny amounts of meter compared to many other supers.

Also, of the supers I tried, they don't give any meter on block? Didn't try all of them. I just always assumed they did.

Another side note, holy crap, Painwheel tag-in gives a crazy amount of meter! Like, more than any of her supers I think?

 

[Mike_Z]

@MikeZ
Penpen said "if he nerfs BB's attacks, doesn't it solve the problem?".
If I remember right, it doesn't solve the problem. is it right?

It does not solve the problem.
The combo in that Big Band video does ~5.9k:

Spoiler: The video again

Squigly, no assist, 3v3, with K Seria: c.LK->c.MK->s.HPHP KK s.MK HPHP 236LK = 5893, and time to get another K Seria. And you can use an assist to set up your okizeme each time for even more damage.
Do that 3x = dead, no meter, with no chance to move and two guesses to block. If you spend meter, you can do it in two combos.
You can find an example of this with any characters you want.

meter things

Some of that is intended - Parasoul isn't intended to give very much meter.
Some of that, I'll fix, because it isn't.
Meter on block is a percentage of meter on hit.

 

[Sydoh]

So, in testing out the lobbies right now, we seem to be able to get matched to different people when there is an odd number, but still getting matched to the same person with even numbers.

We dropped from 5 to 4 and I just got the same person 3 times in a row.

 

[Adeveis]

@Mike_Z While there is still time for bug fixes i feel i should mention I think L bomber as an assist auto corrects twice.

 

[Mike_Z]

We dropped from 5 to 4 and I just got the same person 3 times in a row.

That might be a result of the player count changing, rather than odd/even.
I'll add a case for "and they are NOT THE LAST PERSON YOU PLAYED" straight up, and we can test that from tonight on.

@Adeveis
Checked all three, it most certainly does not.
[edit]
Unless you have a replay, that is, because I checked in-game and in script.

 

[Adeveis]

@Mike_Z
unfortunately I don't but i do have this

Spoiler

I'm getting lvl3 from a qcf input instead of stancel. However when I use one button i get my stance attack.

 

[Daxam]

I am not sure if it was mentioned yet, but the forced scaling at max undizzy robs some characters from 300-400 damage on their honest bnb comboes while others are totally unaffected. The comboes themselves deal exactly the same damage, but level 1 super at the end varies from character to character.

From my short round of testing Diamond Dynamo was totally unaffected at max scaling with full undizzy, but Doubles Car and Elizas Lady of Slaughter lost 300 and 400 damage respectively doing their bnbs I found around those forums. If I was better at this game I'd probably keep testing, but comboes are hard.

It might be worth looking into as it makes bunch of characters just slightly weaker in normal play while the change was targeted at full undizzy sequences.

 

[Pickles]

^ to expand on this a little bit

I didn't notice any real damage difference but in testing I did find damage discrepancies at max undizzy for double car between retail and beta. (didn't test eliza stuff cause i dont play her). I'm more curious as to WHY what i found happens, happens:

so in retail, doing basic bnb into H bomber car, the damage scaling for each hit of H bomber is .2 until the last hit which is .275 (presumably because it does 1000 dmg unscaled). The interesting part is with car: the first hit is scaled .2 in both versions of the game, but on retail each hit after the first is scaled .33, while in beta each hit is scaled to .2 until the last which is scaled .275. Complicating things further is that I did have car scale w/ retail scaling in beta version once but I have been unable to reproduce it (I dont remember exactly what string I used i was just playing with different combos that all got to min scaling by the H bomber at the end to see if anything changed). To be honest I feel like it PROBABLY should be the way it is in beta right now? I dont really understand why car randomly unscales its hits in retail.

 

[RemiKz]

In 3v3? EVERYONE with a sliding knockdown, and most characters without one if you just include resets. In 3v3 with 240 Undizzy:
Fortune/Axe can do it in 2. Double/Pinion can do it in 2. Val/H Chair can do it in 2. Hell, Squigly/Bypass with no Seria has a meterless 6.4k repeatable sliding knockdown setup, and Squigly BY HERSELF with K charge has a 5.8k repeatable meterless sliding etc. I was just picking random characters at this point...two of those into two supers is dead. Considering it's the same setup into itself, and it is doable at any amount of Undizzy, that's a maximum of 3 touches per lifebar no matter what your situation is, back into themselves. That's about the same as with zero undizzy! Changing that to what is currently in the Beta (55% scaling) goes from 6.4k to 3.5k, which means at max Undizzy five or six touches, but if you let them play it goes back to two or three.
The point is to slightly reduce the reward for the opponent not getting to play as much. If you let them play, even a little bit, you get the same reward as before. And heck, Peacock is one of the characters that is least affected because of Argus scaling. :^P


It's that I am sure about the undizzy change, because I know exactly what it does. Or rather, I am pretty certain what the future would be if I didn't do anything.
Character changes scare me more, because those can have severe unintended consequences once people experiment more.

Can I at least make the argument for having snapbacks clear undizzy? I did have 1 situation come up where my opponent tagged in their next character but they had so much undizzy built up, that I did very little damage as a punish and could hardly do anything after I snapped the other character back in.

 

[Zidiane]

Can I at least make the argument for having snapbacks clear undizzy?

You're saying 1v3 you want to come in against a solo who just snapped a bunch of its health back while you're stuck without either assist in the corner with no undizzy built up? You're a brave, brave soul.

It would also mean that I could necro snap in the character I want to come in and be free to apply pressure with no undizzy to give the defender one extra shot to live, no matter my team size.

 

[RemiKz]

You're saying 1v3 you want to come in against a solo who just snapped a bunch of its health back while you're stuck without either assist in the corner with no undizzy built up? You're a brave, brave soul.

It would also mean that I could necro snap in the character I want to come in and be free to apply pressure with no undizzy to give the defender one extra shot to live, no matter my team size.

Maybe not clear completely but either reduce it by a certain amount or make it start counting back down to zero sooner or something. I also don't see anything really wrong with spending meter for a CHANCE to take out a character that tagged out of pressure.

 

[Zidiane]

I also don't see anything really wrong with spending meter for a CHANCE to take out a character that tagged out of pressure.

Snapping already gives you enough advantages to justify the bar (solo health, ruining DHC order, double snaps, beating sekhmet, removing red health, dealing with problem assists, deconstructing gimmick teams, locking out assist calls). It really doesn't need a buff like that.

 

[Cadenza]

Another thing is that usually when you snap, you got the corner. control the corner and let the UD drain if you feel like that's the issue. Not giving up any position other than pressure which in turn makes the reward for opening up someone again much higher than constantly pressuring someone.

 

[Mr Peck]

Can I at least make the argument for having snapbacks clear undizzy? I did have 1 situation come up where my opponent tagged in their next character but they had so much undizzy built up, that I did very little damage as a punish and could hardly do anything after I snapped the other character back in.

Maybe not clear completely but either reduce it by a certain amount or make it start counting back down to zero sooner or something. I also don't see anything really wrong with spending meter for a CHANCE to take out a character that tagged out of pressure.

Tagging has cleared undizzy to 0 for a long time, and it still works in the beta for me. Do you have a replay where this doesn't happen? It seems like a serious bug if that's the case.

 

[CaioLugon]

I believe what's happening to supers in beta is that the 55% extra scaling is being added to the hits that would bypass the minimum scaling. For example, the last hit of lady of slaughter in retail does 800 damage fully scaled, which is 66% of the unscaled 1200, and in beta it does 440, which is 55% of the 66%. With double adding 55% scaling would go below minimum so it just stops at 20/27.5%. It was probably an overlook from mike's part since the buff to car and the adjustments to lady of slaughter were a whole thing and this just invalidates those cases without even mentioning it. (@Mike_Z)

 

[RemiKz]

Tagging has cleared undizzy to 0 for a long time, and it still works in the beta for me. Do you have a replay where this doesn't happen? It seems like a serious bug if that's the case.

Nvm I saw what happened. It wasn't a tag, it was a quick DHC into double puddle so the bar didn't really have much time to reset.

 

[PME]

Cat Strike has a weird frame where both hits will connect, but will push too far for the stagger, otherwise known as the +4 range. If you do it at the +3 range, you'll get the stagger, and barely missing the +4 range, you'll still get the stagger. I'd rather the "slightly missing the +4" and +3 ranges not stagger. Sorry, since this doesn't really have anything to do with the undizzy stuff.