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General Painwheel discussion

R.C. Simon

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Squigly Painwheel Big Band
Just a thread for painwheel mains to discuss things like combos, tech, synergy, and other general gameplay. I had saw that the Painwheel thread was empty so i thought maybe if i posted this it would start to get things going.
 

Stuff

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I'll start, M buer should be plus on block
No.

I don't really understand why buer in general needs to be plus. [maybe grounded H buer since it works kind of like a cmd grab and you could actually try going for it because you won't exclusively die for it] Other than in a scenario where you mess up the combo (which does suck), you can always choose to fly cancel before buer and be safe instead. I don't think buer should work like a poke and if you want to poke with it, that's what assists are for.

I'll add this, I do think that -18 on block is an outrageous number because that's a free HCH for messing up but also stuff like Hairball are that minus so idk.

I do think a thread like this has merit and I'm very curious what other pw players want 'cause that's likely the best way to get anything for her.

Personally speaking I'd like to see PW do more chip damage in addition to lowering charge time for nails but I feel these are also very unlikely to happen.

It'd also be nice if pw's flight wasn't penalized by being normal jump height, I'd prefer it to be slightly higher, not a super jump height or however high Val can go but slight adjustments would be cool and hey just tossing ideas why not, maybe in neutral pw could stand to have infinite fly cancels since it has a time limit for some reason but it could work normally from fly cancelling on block or hit. Or just remove the time limit, I really don't get why it has one in the first place.

Maybe slight tweaks to her flight speed.

Idk.

Also, make M Pinion work like H Hairball, I mean this sincerely, thanks.
 
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Ralph282

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No.

I don't really understand why buer in general needs to be plus. [maybe grounded H buer since it works kind of like a cmd grab and you could actually try going for it because you won't exclusively die for it] Other than in a scenario where you mess up the combo (which does suck), you can always choose to fly cancel before buer and be safe instead. I don't think buer should work like a poke and if you want to poke with it, that's what assists are for.

I'll add this, I do think that -18 on block is an outrageous number because that's a free HCH for messing up but also stuff like Hairball are that minus so idk.

I do think a thread like this has merit and I'm very curious what other pw players want 'cause that's likely the best way to get anything for her.

Personally speaking I'd like to see PW do more chip damage in addition to lowering charge time for nails but I feel these are also very unlikely to happen.

It'd also be nice if pw's flight wasn't penalized by being normal jump height, I'd prefer it to be slightly higher, not a super jump height or however high Val can go but slight adjustments would be cool and hey just tossing ideas why not, maybe in neutral pw could stand to have infinite fly cancels since it has a time limit for some reason but it could work normally from fly cancelling on block or hit. Or just remove the time limit, I really don't get why it has one in the first place.

Maybe slight tweaks to her flight speed.

Idk.

Also, make M Pinion work like H Hairball, I mean this sincerely, thanks.
I highly doubt people are doing Buer on dropped combos if they have the time to realize they can Fly. There are absolutely moments where the combo will drop and ya already don did Buer and now you get HCH. Two main moments it happens to me is when i do things like
L Buer, Fly, 6jLK, sMP, 9jL Buer
By the time i realize i dropped and they blocked sMP, L Buer comes out
And
sMK, L Buer
Have to delay the L Buer fer it to connect on lights if im off welp i died. Is what i would say but people rarely actually punish me for those kinda drops. Still if people actually took advantage ouch.
You could avoid this entirely by just keeping your Pain simple tho I'll give ya that. Still feels extra harsh fer dropping stuff with Pain compared to others. Tho you seem to be on the same page on that front.
Outside dropping stuff tho i do feel Buer is fine as is as well i find them useful nuff. I can live with them even with the Fly input overlap that happens sometimes as well. Although i do think that is sum worth messing with if people want it.

Also only thing i wanna absolutely see outta Pain be

Making cLK en cMK combo max range consistently fer the fHK conversions. Even if it means nerfing how far cLK gos. cLK, L Buer fer max range confirm jus seems so unreasonable to me i don't know why it's a thing.

Other then that jus wanna see fixes to what i assume be unintended jank. Like how Hatred Intsall can just end when you Tag in Pain even if you get the HI version of the Tag when it connects.

Or that one thing softie mentioned where iirc jL or jM Buer sometimes can have assist body block it so the point doesn't get hit despite the Buer connecting with the Point.
This is assuming they haven't already been fixed either way works fer examples. I think softie done got a list maybe so we prolly gon be fine on that front.

After that is jus stuff i feel be on the more selfish side but not entirely unreasonable like

7 Frame Button most talks i see wanna make it sLK her fastest grounded move being Grab is whack.

H Buer being a better Anti Air it feels like one but sucks as one be nice to remedy that.

Corner H Buer, Thresher, Fly, Thresher being Universal would be nice. It's more so fer Solo Pain but I found it useful on enough occasions id like to be able to do it on the whole cast. Works Midscreen on everyone but not in the Corner to be clear.

And the big one Pinion Dash on Point cuz i never got to mess with it and i think is shame Pain had it removed in the first place.

Maybe a boost in Flight speed during Install. Personally view HI as really bad use fer meter if ya popping it fer use in neutral only worth using like that if ya about to die anyway and have meter to spare imo. A boost in speed might make me feel its more worth it. I would be fine if it stayed purely as a safe DHC/Damage Super tho.

If any of these things or other folks suggested changes makes the devs wanna nerf Pain in some way tho then i rather keep her exactly as how she is. I'd even go back to old retail Pain quite frankly unintended jank included. Got all that HI nerf talks still in my head.

Anyway that's all i can think of for now wanted to throw in some cents since i saw so little in here.
 
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Stuff

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A bigger tag hitbox would be nice, it'd also be nice if it wasn't the only techable tag ever but I guess that's the tradeoff for good conversions.
 

R.C. Simon

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No.

I don't really understand why buer in general needs to be plus. [maybe grounded H buer since it works kind of like a cmd grab and you could actually try going for it because you won't exclusively die for it] Other than in a scenario where you mess up the combo (which does suck), you can always choose to fly cancel before buer and be safe instead. I don't think buer should work like a poke and if you want to poke with it, that's what assists are for.

I'll add this, I do think that -18 on block is an outrageous number because that's a free HCH for messing up but also stuff like Hairball are that minus so idk.

I do think a thread like this has merit and I'm very curious what other pw players want 'cause that's likely the best way to get anything for her.

Personally speaking I'd like to see PW do more chip damage in addition to lowering charge time for nails but I feel these are also very unlikely to happen.

It'd also be nice if pw's flight wasn't penalized by being normal jump height, I'd prefer it to be slightly higher, not a super jump height or however high Val can go but slight adjustments would be cool and hey just tossing ideas why not, maybe in neutral pw could stand to have infinite fly cancels since it has a time limit for some reason but it could work normally from fly cancelling on block or hit. Or just remove the time limit, I really don't get why it has one in the first place.

Maybe slight tweaks to her flight speed.

Idk.

Also, make M Pinion work like H Hairball, I mean this sincerely, thanks.
buer may not need to be plus, but some sort of option on block would be nice. It's been said before but making buer flight cancellable on block would be nice, but its definitely not happening. While im not too against the limited flight cancels and flight time limit, if either of them were going to be removed it'd probably be the time limit i feel. 236p doing more chip isn't a bad idea either.

But if i could add any change to painwheel it'd probably be that either the armor on her c.mp or s.hp/c.hp/c.hk had faster startup. Doesn't have to be frame one but maybe a frame or 2 faster
 

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My problem with making buer plus or fly cancelable is the fact that it'll make pw really broken, a game-wide fix would be more suitable, if buer were made slightly taller only to accommodate areas where it'll drop (although I'd argue it's not that hard to otg buer but I seem to be an outlier) or make the otg hurtboxes of characters to still touch the floor so it still works. I wasn't around for beta discussions unfortunately but this is what I feel about a change like this.

I think I need literal videos of where these problems are because I seem to be just a monster at not dropping this.

Also PW's armor start up on heavies is fine, if they were reduced you'd never use her other armored moves unless they are 5MP and jHP. 5f as it is now is plenty fast and can beat a lot of things.
 
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Ralph282

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Only place that i can recall off the top of my head where ya can drop OTG L Buer
Is sum like
During Install jH Buer, [cHP], L Buer
That can make the L Buer whiff on characters like Filia or Squigly iirc. All ya gotta do to fix that is Delay L Buer. Make that your default en ya better off in the long run course sometimes ya forget in the moment and end up whiffing and that's a bummer. P sure there are other places where it happens but this ones prolly the easiest to drop. Heck maybe other buttons like sMP into L Buer can have it whiff as well. Raw L Buer on OTG tho nah i never had that whiff. Making Buer plus won't really do anything with this stuff tho.

Also last time folks did ask fer a taller Hitbox on L Buer so ya wouldn't whiff on stuff like sMK, L Buer en such. But the Devs seem to be reluctant to do that due to the damage increase it would give to Pain en i think there was another reason but i can't recall.
Stuff Like
cHP, L Buer or fHK, L Buer OTG less would be possible making Pains damage output go up by like 100-300 across the board. Worth noting she can already do this on half the cast tho.

Also on the armor thing only thing I'd change is give [cHK] 3 hits of armor purely jus fer consistency. So many people have thought that thing really has 3 hits of armor so its weird that I've never really seen anyone corrected. Till Rabble told me i didn't even know that one. And after i actually recalled being in training mode and noticing it years ago but thought i was doing sum wrong or my game was glitched or sum I've heard literally everyone say it's 3 hits of armor. If there's a balance reason why it's 2 then fine but it's jus really weird people never really got corrected on that.
 

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Idk if it's been written down or not but it would be very cool if pw was not penalized for flying backwards.
 

R.C. Simon

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Only place that i can recall off the top of my head where ya can drop OTG L Buer
Is sum like
During Install jH Buer, [cHP], L Buer
That can make the L Buer whiff on characters like Filia or Squigly iirc. All ya gotta do to fix that is Delay L Buer. Make that your default en ya better off in the long run course sometimes ya forget in the moment and end up whiffing and that's a bummer. P sure there are other places where it happens but this ones prolly the easiest to drop. Heck maybe other buttons like sMP into L Buer can have it whiff as well. Raw L Buer on OTG tho nah i never had that whiff. Making Buer plus won't really do anything with this stuff tho.

Also last time folks did ask fer a taller Hitbox on L Buer so ya wouldn't whiff on stuff like sMK, L Buer en such. But the Devs seem to be reluctant to do that due to the damage increase it would give to Pain en i think there was another reason but i can't recall.
Stuff Like
cHP, L Buer or fHK, L Buer OTG less would be possible making Pains damage output go up by like 100-300 across the board. Worth noting she can already do this on half the cast tho.

Also on the armor thing only thing I'd change is give [cHK] 3 hits of armor purely jus fer consistency. So many people have thought that thing really has 3 hits of armor so its weird that I've never really seen anyone corrected. Till Rabble told me i didn't even know that one. And after i actually recalled being in training mode and noticing it years ago but thought i was doing sum wrong or my game was glitched or sum I've heard literally everyone say it's 3 hits of armor. If there's a balance reason why it's 2 then fine but it's jus really weird people never really got corrected on that.
i actually thought c.[hk] had 3 hits of armor too :/
 

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I've always figured it has 2 hits because it is a comboable sweep kinda like how jHP has 1 hit of armor because it would be extremely good if it had more. I've never really questioned it
 

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I don't know about plus on block, but Buers definitely shouldn't be so minus on block. It's pretty much a blocked DP in how big the punish window is for it. The hitbox is already not that great.
 

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Painwheel Ms. Fortune
I come back here to search for tech and all I see are people asking for changes...

Anyway, I used to have a really gimmicky crossunder using LP Nail but since coming back I can't remember how to do it. I was wondering if anyone knows what I'm talking about. I used to love it just for style.

Also looking for uses for f+HK because I never use it.
 

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I would be fine with buers being so minus if there was an actual reward to using them. As a person who uses them wayy too frequently, for a proper spacing read with jlbuer you get to charge a nails shot lol. That reward is faaar less than what Bella would get for those CMD grabs that are like 16 frames to punish. I'd be happy with either making air buers useful and keeping the current frame data or keeping the current functionality and tweaking the frame data for something more proportional. All the grounded buers are all actually useful so I don't really have any qualms for them, except for maybe that pbgc lbuer scales too much imo (pulling that off is hard bc of the slow startup and you don't get much off of it, that being said at least you get a combo and some invuln from the hitgrab). Perhaps consider making grounded hbuer a little faster since it's hitbox is pretty weak and it's very punishable. I don't think PW needs that many changes, just my 2 cents as the resident buer madlad. I do have comments on her nail gameplay but other than what immediately pertains to the conversation I'd rather not discuss changes here.
 

R.C. Simon

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I come back here to search for tech and all I see are people asking for changes...

Anyway, I used to have a really gimmicky crossunder using LP Nail but since coming back I can't remember how to do it. I was wondering if anyone knows what I'm talking about. I used to love it just for style.

Also looking for uses for f+HK because I never use it.
maybe the character specific s.hkx2 l nail dash under?
 

Ralph282

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Painwheel Robo Fortune
I come back here to search for tech and all I see are people asking for changes...

Anyway, I used to have a really gimmicky crossunder using LP Nail but since coming back I can't remember how to do it. I was wondering if anyone knows what I'm talking about. I used to love it just for style.

Also looking for uses for f+HK because I never use it.
Yeh u prolly talking bout what simon said sHK×2, L Nail that only works on Lights - Fortune so that may be why u are unable to reproduce it
You can however do any knock down into it to make it work on more characters lets say for example
cHP, Fly, 6Unfly, sHK×2, L Nail
This way it works on Fortune and many if not all Mids or do knockdown into
cLP, sHK×2, L Nail
This way it works easier on Mids and also works on Double

When it comes to fHK its usually for damage or max range confirm like cLK, cMK, fHK×4, Fly, into whatever
In HI if u haven't used H Buer yet it can be used to do
fHK×4, H Buer, Fly, 1Unfly, Death Crawl works OTG less and even midscreen
Also seen it used to do mix ups like either
sMK, fHK×3, Fly, Grab or 6jMK
Or
L Nail, so you can back up fHK×4, Fly, 9jMP into cross under en such
Tho cHP also works here so eh id imagine its suppose to be either easier or do more damage
Oh! And also if ya tryna maximize damage a good habit to make in the corner if you see your close to killing end the string into
cLP, sLK, cMP, fHK×4, H Buer, Fly,
Then look at the health bar if jL Buer can kill do that if not end in thresher
Also also many edits phone has caused pain didn't even wanna post yet ah well
 
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what was the reason it was removed from her kit in the first place?
The game dev didn’t think it got with her kit
 

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Yeh u prolly talking bout what simon said sHK×2, L Nail that only works on Lights - Fortune so that may be why u are unable to reproduce it
You can however do any knock down into it to make it work on more characters lets say for example
cHP, Fly, 6Unfly, sHK×2, L Nail
This way it works on Fortune and many if not all Mids or do knockdown into
cLP, sHK×2, L Nail
This way it works easier on Mids and also works on Double

When it comes to fHK its usually for damage or max range confirm like cLK, cMK, fHK×4, Fly, into whatever
In HI if u haven't used H Buer yet it can be used to do
fHK×4, H Buer, Fly, 1Unfly, Death Crawl works OTG less and even midscreen
Also seen it used to do mix ups like either
sMK, fHK×3, Fly, Grab or 6jMK
Or
L Nail, so you can back up fHK×4, Fly, 9jMP into cross under en such
Tho cHP also works here so eh id imagine its suppose to be either easier or do more damage
Oh! And also if ya tryna maximize damage a good habit to make in the corner if you see your close to killing end the string into
cLP, sLK, cMP, fHK×4, H Buer, Fly,
Then look at the health bar if jL Buer can kill do that if not end in thresher
Also also many edits phone has caused pain didn't even wanna post yet ah well
Thanks for this.

I've kinda settled into this as a "don't overuse" crossunder mixup:

s.HKx2 --> call assist to pin them in air (I use Squigly Arpeggio) --> whiffed M.Buer(crossunder) --> go for weird reset on the other side

Works on everyone except Big Band. Tricky timing on Double. The heavier the character, the faster you need to do Buer after the assist. Sometimes this results in a whiffed snapback by mistake, which will also crossunder, but you'll waste a bar. There's also some character specific things. Like with Cerebella I do s.HKx1 before cancelling because my assist misses her otherwise. You can still crossunder without any assist at all, but it's super obvious.

It's just a gimmick.

You can also just continue the combo from the other side instead of going for a reset but the only point of that would be to look stylish.
 
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Dime

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Im bored. Havent played this game in years… but most of whats been mentioned in this thread pertains to old PW as well.

about pinion dash:

I was the only person advocating for it to stay. Other people wither didnt care or wanted it gone because they kept flubbing the execution and getting it out by mistake. Mike saw it as something that wasnt important for her kit so to make players happy he just removed it.
The reason why I wanted it to stay was because if you used lvl 1 pinion + assist, you got a really nice pressure reset even if they pushblocked.

buer being plus on block doesnt really make much sense to me.. it would make her better the same way giving mike tyson a bazooka before he went into a boxing match, would make him better.

the changes i personally would want to try out:

faster startup on ground dash. This would allow PW to convert invincible assists even when she just blocked a heavy attack.

make her upwards fly faster when the opponent is in the air, or give her a double jump (would never happen, but it would be nice)

make charged jhp have 2 hits of armor (might be broken, but 1 hit of armor seems kinda weak with all the multi hitting stuff in the game)

thats all i can really think of atm. There are other cute things like buff her ground super… but I dont think its worth mentioning.

right now from what ive seen from the top painwheels that arent me (cause i havent played in years) pw’s main problems seem to be converting from invincible assists with a high percentage, and she seems a tad bit slow.
However she has crazy buttons to make up for the slowspeed.
 

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be nice if there was a pain meter telling about how much damage is stored ina cool way