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(help me make) The Ultimate Skullgirls Beginner's Primer

Kai

Kai

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Be warned, I'm going to mod this with a fairly heavy hand. Sorry if that rustles your jimmies, but I'm only looking for actual contributions, here.

I've long wanted a video that could be used to introduce pretty much everything a new player might need to know. In essence, a single 5-minute video that you could show a new player and prevent them from ever saying things like, "I keep getting hit by infinites," or, "there's nothing I can do in this situation." It's not a combo video, and it's not an in-depth tutorial.

What I need is your opinion on WHAT would be included in such a video, and how best to explain the absolute basics to a new player. This is pretty much going to be for the new players picking up 2nd Encore, so consider that when thinking about how things should be stated.
  • DO THE TUTORIAL
  • IPS/Undizzy ABSOLUTE BASICS
    • IPS quick explanation
    • Undizzy quick explanation (and come back to that during the resets section below)
  • "Why Am I Dying, And How Can I Not Die?"
    • Defending against Mids (block), Lows (block low), Overheads (block high), and Throws (tech or jump)
    • Pushblocking, Absolute Guard, PBGC, & Alpha Counter
    • Combos vs Resets
    • reset Dynamics, or how to beat them
  • What's right for you?
    • Team Composition & Dynamics (+ tiers are dumb, etc)
    • Controller choice (i.e. completely irrelevant)
And that's where I am right now. I'd say I need to finish this in the next 30 days, which isn't too hard.

Thoughts?
 
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you should add in chains, the combo stages, and dizzy and how they are tied to each other. a play understanding that should help them do combos that maximize the damage without them spilling over in the dizzy department. This should include doing a reset on an opponent who has full dizzy and how you can do a full chain before the combo stage goes up and triggers dizzy.

but then again you can just do this as a sub topic under the Combos/Resets.
 
I think it's important to explain what neutral is and that every character has their own best way of getting a hit in to begin a combo.
Footsies are scary territory and it's good to understand how to get in.
 
Denizen said:
I think it's important to explain what neutral is and that every character has their own best way of getting a hit in to begin a combo.

that should be another video, first the essencial/ universal then the specific, tought.
 
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Wenzel said:
that should be another video, first the essencial/ universal then the specific, tought.
I'm not saying Kai should explain how each and every character does in neutral, just explain the basics of neutral and make the viewer aware that each character has different approaches to it.
 
Nynten said:
Team composition and combo mechanics made (and still make) my head spin. Neutral game tips would be good, simple things like hit confirming, mixups, zoning, and a bit about footsies. Since that's a lot and most of it is experience, just give a basic overview.

Also maybe a really general overview of character strengths and weaknesses. That would help with the team comp thing.
Denizen said:
I'm not saying Kai should explain how each and every character does in neutral, just explain the basics of neutral and make the viewer aware that each character has different approaches to it.
This is good info for a new player to know, but maybe not a BRAND NEW player, you know what I mean? The primary focus of this would be to clear up that very first level of initial confusion. Things like neutral stragtegies and even character strengths are beyond that, imo. I will talk about neutral as a state of engagement, though. Let me add some things up top...
 
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Quick run down of Bursts and Burst baits, counter hits, OTGs... basically anything Mike made a visual cue for.
and maybe explain chicken blocking.
 
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Fedora_Ninja said:
Quick run down of Bursts and Burst baits, counter hits, OTGs... basically anything Mike made a visual cue for.
and maybe explain chicken blocking.
bursts yes
chicken blocking no
or maybe yes
maybe just a statement about how landing ends blockstun
 
I don't know what you're planning on doing with this video, but make sure there's no doubt about where people can go for more information.
ie: Here, not the steam forums or wherever. It got brought up in some other thread a while ago that new players didn't know where to go, so I think it's probably worth noting.
This doesn't have anything to do with playing the game though.
 
Grunt said:
I don't know what you're planning on doing with this video, but make sure there's no doubt about where people can go for more information.
ie: Here, not the steam forums or wherever. It got brought up in some other thread a while ago that new players didn't know where to go, so I think it's probably worth noting.
This doesn't have anything to do with playing the game though.
I agree. I think that referencing Skullheart is actually VERY necessary. It might even be the very first thing I talk about in the video.
 
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I guess this is a question about what exactly you're looking for in the video, but personally I think that any skullgirls tutorial video, even for brand new players, should assume the viewer has played the tutorial. Stuff like bursts/drama have tutorials now so I don't think they need to be included in an introductory video. PBGC might be a bit advanced for new players but pushblock/alpha counter are definitely good ideas. Combos vs resets I would say is core for sure. Some of this stuff though does seem like something that players at the "fresh-off-the-tutorial" level might not at that level yet.
 
Most basic question is whether this is for "FG players interested in SG 2nd Encore" or "Totally new to FGs people interested in SG"
Based on your starting post I presume it is the latter, as someone used to other FGs doesn't really need to know that overheads have to be blocked high

But if it is for beginners to the entire genre, and you basically have to explain FG basics as a whole, then something like Alpha Counters is most definitely out of place (You hardly see this used by experts, why would there be room for it in a beginner primer?) and even PBGC is certainly not part of the topics in that case
 
IsaVulpes said:
Most basic question is whether this is for "FG players interested in SG 2nd Encore" or "Totally new to FGs people interested in SG"
Based on your starting post I presume it is the latter, as someone used to other FGs doesn't really need to know that overheads have to be blocked high

But if it is for beginners to the entire genre, and you basically have to explain FG basics as a whole, then something like Alpha Counters is most definitely out of place (You hardly see this used by experts, why would there be room for it in a beginner primer?) and even PBGC is certainly not part of the topics in that case
You're right, people coming from other fighters don't need this kind of guide, they just need to put in some effort to learn a new game.
Pickles said:
I guess this is a question about what exactly you're looking for in the video, but personally I think that any skullgirls tutorial video, even for brand new players, should assume the viewer has played the tutorial. Stuff like bursts/drama have tutorials now so I don't think they need to be included in an introductory video. PBGC might be a bit advanced for new players but pushblock/alpha counter are definitely good ideas. Combos vs resets I would say is core for sure. Some of this stuff though does seem like something that players at the "fresh-off-the-tutorial" level might not at that level yet.
If I felt like every player was going to both play and understand the entire tutorial, I wouldn't bother with this. I know this to not be the case, though. I'm making this for the player I've seen again and again: absolutely clueless, and helplessly lost. If Skullgirls is flying a plane, than this video is explaining gravity and basic aerodynamics like lift and drag.

Three years ago, I didn't even know that you had to jump to avoid a Diamond Drop assist, man. Nobody told me that shit, which is why it took me a year to really get into the game. I want better retention than that when 2nd Encore hits PS4. There is going to be an entirely new wave of gawking, wide eyed, naked babes in the woods come the PS4 release. "Look at that cool art!" they'll say. I want those people to stick around.
 
In that case explain what a grab is and why they're important.
If you wanna get deep, explain when to use them.
 
Kai said:
Already listed :)
lmao my eyes completely missed the word throw cause I was looking for grab.
Too much Beo, sorry.
 
Pickles said:
assume the viewer has played the tutorial
Disagree. Despite how much our community emphasizes playing the tutorials, doesn't mean that every new player can get through all the lessons. Ever watched a newbie stream of the tutorials? A lot of frustration and skipping chapters can occur.

Which kinda gives me an idea to record successful runs through the tutorial. Kinda like how VesperArcade's youtube posts trial modes for SF4 and the like.
 
Since this is a guide to people at the very beginning I think it might be good to start it like this:
-Skullgirls is a 6-button fighting game, there are standing, crouching and jumping normals, in general they must be blocked like this.
-You can chain normals like this.
-Command normals and exceptions the blocking rules.
-In addition to normals there are throws and this is how they work and how you deal with them.
-In addition to those each character has specials (two or three examples and very simplified explanation of their uses).
-You can cancel normals into a special.
-After that each character has blockbusters and they cost meter (examples) and you can do sequels (more on that later).
-You can go from specials to blockbusters.
-A combo is this this and this.
-The limitations for a combo are such and such.
-They can be long but they generally can't kill you.
-A brief explanation what are resets and why people do them.
-Resets, burst baits and how to not fall for them.

Then cover team mechanics, neutral, engagement and re-engagement. I don't know of a good way to begin talking about those.

I think one good thing to do in the guide is to not heavily separate things. Instead you can continue an explanation and add a title on the top left of the screen that indicates what is the concept you're talking about.
 
I'd think mentioning Alpha Counters (or w/e it's called in-game) would be useful. I hardly see anyone using these, and I feel they are important to know since you can use them off of a Burst Bait or early pushblock to still get out of a tight spot. They exist, but they are underutilized by most players, I feel. Even I, the one bringing this up, don't use them in opportune places.
 
I'm not sure if this appropriate for the scope of the tutorial but I think it is something that can go a long way in trying to grow the community and have beginner's participate in the community.

Remembering my experience as a beginner in the community, at the root of all of my questions on mechanics in the game also linked to the larger question of who do I ask to help me out? I think some consideration should be give to helping beginner's know the resources they can access and how to get to know members in the community who can provide them with feedback on their gameplay. Knowing that there are people in this community who are invested in your progress can give beginners a sense of acceptance in the community and an expectation of growth as they are learning more about the game.

Again, not sure if this is what you are aiming for in this video but just a direction I wanted to throw out there ;)
 
Kai said:
If I felt like every player was going to both play and understand the entire tutorial, I wouldn't bother with this.

If that's the case then it does seem extremely redundant to me to make this. "Yes there's a really amazing tutorial, but what if people don't do it?" seems like a bad reason.

Fedora_Ninja said:
Despite how much our community emphasizes playing the tutorials, doesn't mean that every new player can get through all the lessons. Ever watched a newbie stream of the tutorials? A lot of frustration and skipping chapters can occur.

Which kinda gives me an idea to record successful runs through the tutorial. Kinda like how VesperArcade's youtube posts trial modes for SF4 and the like.

This I think is a good idea then. The tutorial for this game is just SO GOOD that ignoring it because people get frustrated doing it seems like a waste. If they can't do the tutorial, then watching someone do it would give them that information without the mechanical effort. There's a lot of stuff that experienced players take as obvious, like jumping out of throws, that would be fantastic information for a new player to have. Reiterating what's been said in the tutorial just seems redundant, but that's my opinion.

Not that I don't think you should include ANYTHING from the tutorial, some things like blocking high/low/throw that deserve to be stressed should certainly be stressed, but making a video assuming the viewer didn't bother with the tutorial seems silly. Maybe we should ask new players what parts of the tutorial they had the hardest time with and focus on those in the video?
 
I don't feel there's a need to take polls, honestly. The anecdotal evidence that I've seen time after time from frustrated new players is what I'm going to use, and I've tried to tailor this to those needs. It's fine if you disagree with the fundamentals of this idea, but I'm not going to change it that drastically.

If we want to maximize this guide's effectiveness, we can't pretend we have the luxury of trusting that the tutorial will be played and absorbed. Again: When I started playing in 2012, *I* did not know that you had to jump to avoid throws, and I had completed the tutorial. I'm trying to help THOSE people.
 
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The way I see it, this vid not only can be used to explain the game to new players, but also to potential new players that are on the line of considering buying it, and just want more information about the game. Though from the looks of things, it may turn out to be more of a 10 min vid than a 5 min vid.
 
Kai said:
Be warned, I'm going to mod this with a fairly heavy hand. Sorry if that rustles your jimmies, but I'm only looking for actual contributions, here.
I've long wanted a video that could be used to introduce pretty much everything a new player might need to know. In essence, a single 5-minute video that you could show a new player and prevent them from ever saying things like, "I keep getting hit by infinites," or, "there's nothing I can do in this situation." It's not a combo video, and it's not an in-depth tutorial.

What I need is your opinion on WHAT would be included in such a video, and how best to explain the absolute basics to a new player. This is pretty much going to be for the new players picking up 2nd Encore, so consider that when thinking about how things should be stated.
  • IPS/Undizzy ABSOLUTE BASICS
    • IPS quick explanation
    • Undizzy quick explanation (and come back to that during the resets section below)
  • "Why Am I Dying, And How Can I Not Die?"
    • Defending against Mids (block), Lows (block low), Overheads (block high), and Throws (tech or jump)
    • Pushblocking, PBGC, & Alpha Counter
    • Combos vs Resets
    • Team Composition & Dynamics (+ tiers are dumb, etc)
  • "The Triad Method," or, "what am I doing?"
    • Neutral - when you're both looking for a hit
    • Engagement - when you're actively attacking or being attacked, either blocking or being hit (the key here being to communicate that one must remain defensively vigilant even when being hit, to avoid resets)
    • Re-Engagement - any state where one player has control of how the next engagement starts (oki, incoming, etc)
And that's where I am right now. I'd say I need to finish this in the next 30 days, which isn't too hard.

Thoughts?
Kai said:
I don't feel there's a need to take polls, honestly. The anecdotal evidence that I've seen time after time from frustrated new players is what I'm going to use, and I've tried to tailor this to those needs. It's fine if you disagree with the fundamentals of this idea, but I'm not going to change it that drastically.

If we want to maximize this guide's effectiveness, we can't pretend we have the luxury of trusting that the tutorial will be played and absorbed. Again: When I started playing in 2012, *I* did not know that you had to jump to avoid throws, and I had completed the tutorial. I'm trying to help THOSE people.

If you're going to use a standpoint where you strip the explanations to a bare minimum what i would emphasize on is more on the side of defense and the neutral game.explaining how to deal with pressure and what to look for when on the defense.
most ive seen with newer players is they try to mash out of certain situations where its better to play more defensive and look for certain things ITT such as ips and etc.
how to deal with pressure i feel would more tailor to a newer audience to SG,in a lot of threads ive visited on other boards ive seen a lot of accounts of people giving up when they feel they can't do anything against someone who's giving them a hard time.
 
I had 2 friends try to learn skullgirls recently, both completely new to fighting games, and from that experience I can agree with Kai's goal.
One of the friends (and I assume a lot of new players) was running through tutorials like a set of trials, where he completed whatever the goal is without thinking about it or ever going back.
He was able to complete them all, but when I was watching him play he couldn't chain together normals, so there's something to be said for a video like this.
 
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Grunt said:
He was able to complete them all, but when I was watching him play he couldn't chain together normals, so there's something to be said for a video like this.
a mention of execution and repeating bnb's till their second nature might be good,but its more on the said individual to put in the effort for things like that,not what someone on a video that *may* indirectly state such.
some players don't want to apply the 'ryu' type of discipline where they go into training mode and just repeat the same thing over and over again until its down in whichever position they are.
 
You should absolutely mention and stress pushblock absolute guard.

It is very easy to do and makes surviving 10000x easier, it is honestly the first thing I ever tell a new player who has played other fighting games.

Because this is starting from absolute beginnings it wont be the first thing you mention but I didn't see it on your list and feel it is critically important, far moreso than pushblock guard cancel for a beginner. Pretty much the most important thing about defense at all, really (past explaining how overheads, lows and pushblock actually work so they have the foudnation).
 
Albverdich said:
its more on the said individual to put in the effort for things like that,not what someone on a video that *may* indirectly state such.
I suppose execution isn't the best example, but I'm just saying some people don't use tutorials as a learning experience, they use it as a list of things to accomplish, which I think is what Kai's getting at.
 
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I was going to build this primer myself along with the Bella guide, but I wanted to wait for the PS4 tutorials. I wanted to build off of what the game teaches, and not have to rehash anything the game already made clear.

Edit: Nvm. Not Primer material.
 
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Zidiane said:
snip
All this is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do. What you're describing is a beginner's guide on neutral, more suited to a traditional tutorial.
 
Oh, sorry. Sometimes I forget which bits of information is suitable for which groups and stuff. Umm... well, if I think of anything more suitable, I'll pop back in.
 
Maybe going over Outtakes/Snapbacks, and how they have different levels of importance between team v team, solo v team and solo v solo
 
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Much of what I type below is based on me assuming this guide vid would be for an absoulte fighting game noob/absolute skullgirls noob:

-IMO, Skullheart should NOT be one of the first things mentioned. Middle, or last, as a "If you'd like more resources, there's an awesome community here: link. (cue explanation of the types of resources there, from folks talkin strats to live streams)". Yes, this fictitious newbie has logged onto youtube to get more info about the game, but if we're talkin' absolute basics, skullheart is not essential to knowing how to make your doodz fight.

quick note: in a panel or interview or something, MikeZ went over his list of the absolute basics a new player needs to know to play SG. I recommend someone find it. If I remember where it was, I'll paste it in. But that was a really good scope to keep in mind. It was like, 10 things or so, and it purposely left off some of the things that we vets would even find important.


Anyway, I feel that Beginner stuff is like this:
-There are these invisible boxes on top of your character. When you press buttons, stuff happens to your boxes, and when one box touches another character's box, stuff happens.

-generally speaking, your left hand makes you move and your right hand makes you hit.

-Framedata for dummies: "Hey you: press all the attack buttons as many times as you can, as fast as you can. Now, how many times did your character actually swing their fists? Only 4 times? Well, welcome to the wonderful world of startup/cooldown. Now stop mashing buttons, and press the ones you need when you need 'em."

-there are these things called motions. new people have a lot of trouble with these, but let's walk through how to do them, step by step: with video footage of my thumb/hands- now in slow motion. (QCF, DP, 360... and be REAL basic and elaborate with explaining this. I've watched new folks stream their attempt to do a DP or QCF in the tutorial and their rage/pain overflowed)

-Your health bar is here, their health bar is there. Take away all of their health without losing yours to win. Oh, and some of it is red, but here's the easy explanation of why.

-Oh, and there's some stuff called meter. It does cool magical stuff (that we can talk about later). You get it when you hit folks, and when you get hit.

-movement (but not mentioning wavedashing. that's not basic, though very useful for some chars.)

-to defend, hold AWAY from your opponent. you can also defend while crouching by holding AWAY and DOWN. But some moves hurt you a tiny bit even though you're blocking. We call it "chip damage". Beware: you can be GRABBED while you're blocking. If you want a little space, press 2 punches when their hit connects with your defense, and you can push them off ya.

-There are attacks that hit mid: you can block them while standing/crouching. There are attacks that hit low: you have to crouch while defending to block them. There are attacks called "overheads": you gotta block them while standing. If the opponent is in the air attacking, you have to stand up to block it (9 times out of 10)

-Introductory primer to what that guy over there is doing: they're standing back shooting stuff all day? they're either trying to slowly kill you by chipping away at your health, or they're hoping you'll get impatient make a mistake trying to rush in. They're running in your face doing a lot of attacks? They're hoping you will be overwhelmed and wont block the appropriate type of move (high/low/mid), or they're hoping you'll be so scared that you keep blocking- then they'll grab you. ETC. Here's what you should try to do in each of these basic situations...

-if you get hit, you get stunned for a short period of time. If they have another move that's fast enough, you can be hit again before you recover. Eventually, they will not have any more moves they can use, so they'll have to try to start from scratch and hit you fresh all over again. It can be tricky to see where/when that's going to happen, but with practice you'll start to spot those coming.(combos/resets done.)

-this game is also a team game. Here's what your teammates are there for: assists to jump out and lend you a hand. switching characters to give your people a break. taking your place in a pinch (alpha counter), helping you do extra damage... So here's how you should treat your teammates: dont call them at bad times, keep an eye on their health... etc; here's how you should treat the enemy's team: watch out for the assist- it's usually gonna be called at ____ opportunities. Punish them- they're vulnerable here and here. ETC.

-ETC beginnery stuff
----

To me, this is the type of beginner stuff that is real handy. After that, if you want to get into some of the more advanced stuff like team composition, dynamics, PBGC, alpha counters, IPS, Undizzy, then cool- but I'd lean toward keeping it basic, especially since it's a basic primer to help absolute new folks not die. Maybe that stuff is in a part 2 video.

Basically: what am I doing? Why am I pressing these buttons? How do I not die? Keeping it in this realm would be beneficial. It's easy for a primer vid to balloon into a comprehensive guide, but by aiming only for the goal of "new guy not being completely baffled", then the scope stays in check.
 
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That, he did. I link it often when trying to help new players :)
 
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Maybe a short mention about movement: IAD, double jump, super jump?
How about a short explanation about what makes moves unsafe?
 
A couple things I think would be useful:

-Assume players are using a standard PS4 pad. Maybe explain different controller options? Or, maybe just mention that (especially with SG) the PS4 pad works just fine and there's need to get a "real controller" to be good at the game.

-Some way of showing you doing the inputs irl. Either a short section that shows an overview of what you're actually doing to input normals/specials/supers, or just have a dedicated "controller/hand cam" so that as you go through the video, people can watch you do the inputs. I suggest this cause when I first picked up Skullgirls (around when it launched), I didn't know that QCF was supposed to be one smooth motion (I had only seen the arrow notation, and thought QC was done be quickly tapping down, down-forward, forward and then whatever button.). It was easy to correct when I saw the notation in the tutorial, but I still had trouble doing the motion and actually timing the motion+button press for a while. Being able to see it done would have helped me out a lot in the beginning.

-A quick rundown of common terms used? When I first started getting into things, I'd hear people say stuff like "Oh, just blah blah Fireball blah to get that combo" or, "Just DP that into super and DHC into X to punish" and I'd be like "WTF. This character doesn't have a move called 'fireball'. What the hell's a DP? And what in the name of the Skull Heart does DHC mean?! I went through the tutorial and move list and there's nothing called DHC!" Obviously, using the game's own terminology for things in this tutorial is best. But there are some REALLY common terms thrown around quite often in combo videos/other tutorials/etc., that may be worth mentioning just so people are aware.

-Lastly, maybe a quick shoutout to the First Attack series on UltraChenTV? They've got an updated Skullgirls one on there channel now, but even their other, more Street Fighter focused ones have tons of invaluable information for FG in general, imo.
 
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