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Hitstop Poll

Hitstop?

  • Total voters
    59
IsaVulpes said:
HoldingUpTheMirror.jpg



W-W-where's my reflection?

Am I a vampire?
 
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Over the course of this conversation, I've started to understand why supers have hitstop. I thought a lot about the ramifications of what the mechanic SHOULD lead to on paper, so I understand why it was implemented. Unfortunately, the game's meta right now often involves mashing out on super as an optimal strategy, so it's not working as intended. But that's a problem with the players, not the game.

That being said, the way this option works is still giving a lot of power to the player on the receiving end of pressure, and that's always a dangerous line to tread. However, if I could, I'd change my vote in the poll from "awful" to "needs tweaking."
 
If I could I'd change my vote to needs tweaking since that is what I've thought all along. The mechanic from the viewpoint of not being able to counter super, is a good idea. Counter supers like they were in sde is just bad design.

But, the new implementation is just as bad and it's easily seeable by the creator needing to come up with alternative reasons for the implementation. At first it was to counter, counter supers... Now it's to counter the ability to block on reaction to supers...

These are not the same thing in the slightest and the games original frame data doesn't seem to point to this being a part of the expected implementation of the supers.

Most dp moves have 10-17 frames of startup and lack big horizontal range. Many of the unblockable supers have waaaay more range and are quicker to boot. Plus they are almost all waaaay easier to mash out when coming out of block or hitstun.

But it's the range that is the bifpg culprit here... These moves weren't designed to be unblockable and thus many of them have huge unblockable ranges. One could argue that that is justified because use of meter... But meter isn't as precious as people make it sound. It's generally best used in its best way... Meaning that whatever is considered the best use of meter, will generally be how meter is used save for situational occasions. This new hitstop makes using supers to get in, or to dictate a match pace by threat of raw super, very powerful and therefor it will be one of the prime ways for super to be used... Meaning that raw super is going to become very common... Because I mean using a dash up diamond dynamo or fortune air or ground super into pw or double or peacock or squigly safe dhc super, is going to be extremely powerful especially if the wielder of said tactics tries to use it in in an on hit fashion but takes the free pressure on block in the case of double or pw dhc, and the free guess in the case of peacock dhc since bomb makes a blocked dynamo safe...

We will be seeing a lot of this. Good players will be using the safer versions, bads will be using the unsafe versions as all in gambits against those they suck at beating without it. It makes the game bad in my eyes... But it's playable. Just have to design a team around it to maximize.

Also, it makes trios much more powerful than they currently are... So that always a good thing in my eyes so I guess its kinda meh.

It's whatever, good players will take note of these properties and start to make teams around the feature.
But sg is going to be hella wack when fortune with 2 meters backed by double gets a huge advantage just by being above your head.... Double jump... Airsuper, cats,

Easiest offense ever. W/e
 
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Dime_x said:
But sg is going to be hella wack when fortune with 2 meters backed by Bella gets a huge advantage just by being above your head.... Double jump... Airsuper, cats
What does this even have to do with hitstop
 
Is it hitstop's fault that a Peacock can just throw out 3 Argus Agony attacks in a row and if I so much as stop pushing back for a moment I get hit?
 
Broken Loose said:
what WHAT WHAT
? That's the one thing he said in this thread that wasn't ridiculous

Bella Metal: 24f
Double L.Butt: 17f
Filia Updo: 8/11/13f
Fortune Fiber: 13/14/15f
Parasoul Pillar: 17f
Pea M.Bang: 20f

The new viable reversals are

Bella Dynamo: 6f
Filia Gregor: 4f
Fortune Berserker: 4f
PW Crawl: ?? "Faster startup", uh.
Val Knives: 5f
Val EKG: 4f

Which IS quite a noticeable difference when trying to react to "Dash-Metal" vs "Dash-Dynamo" - not to speak of Dynamo having twice the range of Bella's shitty DP.
 
IsaVulpes said:
That's neither hitstop's fault nor true
Well, I don't think it's impossible that I was dashing as a force of habit, but I'm pretty certain that out of the 3 matches I had where my opponent managed to pull this on me (spaced apart over a number of other matches) I dashed less than 9 times, but ok.

Also, are all supers effected by hitstop, do they have different lengths of time, and where can I find a list of them and their details if so?
 
IsaVulpes said:
What does this even have to do with hitstop


If you really need to ask... The question is above your head.
Though c'mon, it's obvious.
A hint:

Fortunes airsuper is unblockable post flash from a fair distance away.

In sde this would primarily be a way in on block. Or it would a be a true reversal to cats if something was stuck out and the opponent couldn't counter super. Now it basically shuts down everything except for blocking. There is absolutely nothing to lose. High probability of hit and if not, easy pressure.

How does it NOT have anything yo do with hitstop... Have you even gone into training or tested the unblockable properties with a friend?

That's rhetorical, don't answer that.
 
For one, maybe you should read patchnotes. Or like, go into training and test the 'unblockable properties' of it?

For two, you wrote "Doublejump, airsuper, cats". That DHC works you know, without Hitstop as well.
So the difference is, that you're more likely to hit. Which makes it better, woo.
But on block, the Fortune DHC Cats is still positive, still godlike, still "getting a huge advantage just by being above your head.... Double jump... Airsuper, cats"
So yeah, with hitstop this is stronger, but without hitstop it's still the very same shit.
You know, the 'problem' here isn't the hitstop, but the DHC to Cats.
 
Oreo said:
Over the course of this conversation, I've started to understand why supers have hitstop. I thought a lot about the ramifications of what the mechanic SHOULD lead to on paper, so I understand why it was implemented. Unfortunately, the game's meta right now often involves mashing out on super as an optimal strategy, so it's not working as intended. But that's a problem with the players, not the game.

That being said, the way this option works is still giving a lot of power to the player on the receiving end of pressure, and that's always a dangerous line to tread. However, if I could, I'd change my vote in the poll from "awful" to "needs tweaking."

The game's meta will evolve when folks get their supers blocked. It's like VF in this regard.
My main worry is that the game's meta will evolve into some sort of OS/safe pressure that beats wakeup supers and provides a free mixup- then we start getting set play, and that's dull.


DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Is it hitstop's fault that a Peacock can just throw out 3 Argus Agony attacks in a row and if I so much as stop pushing back for a moment I get hit?

Most chars have something they can do to punish blocked argus hard, though in many cases it requires meter as well. Blocked Argus is not how Peacock wants to spend meter in general. there is a pause in the middle of Argus, and Argus isn't instant even with hitstop.
 
Oreo said:
Unfortunately, the game's meta right now often involves mashing out on super as an optimal strategy, so it's not working as intended.

Play people who don't suck.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Play people who don't suck.

>implying that there isn't some degree of mashing out super at the higher levels of play in MDE
 
Oreo said:
>implying that there isn't some degree of mashing out super at the higher levels of play in MDE

"Some degree" isn't "OPTIMAL STRATEGY THAT COMPLETELY BREAKS THE GAME WITH UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES NERF PLS"
 
Oh I can't choose both "Awful" and "Needs Tweaking"?

Oh well, whatever. I'll just abuse it for the time being since my character has one of the best ones.
 
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I wish I could change my negative vote, because at this point Diamond Dynamo is a better reversal for Cerebella than her awful Devil Horns move.
 
IsaVulpes said:
For one, maybe you should read patchnotes. Or like, go into training and test the 'unblockable properties' of it?

For two, you wrote "Doublejump, airsuper, cats". That DHC works you know, without Hitstop as well.
So the difference is, that you're more likely to hit. Which makes it better, woo.
But on block, the Fortune DHC Cats is still positive, still godlike, still "getting a huge advantage just by being above your head.... Double jump... Airsuper, cats"
So yeah, with hitstop this is stronger, but without hitstop it's still the very same shit.
You know, the 'problem' here isn't the hitstop, but the DHC to Cats.


Lol it's funny how you make connections. So in sde its most likely to blocked. And yet you think that in sde it was good? Most likely to be blocked... is bad because that's 2 meters to do something you could have probably done for 0 meter.

However... High probability of hitting with a Lower probability of being blocked, yet still safe on block and still safe pressure... Is a HELL OF A LOT BETTER.

Seriously... You think there's little difference between block and hit? You cray? Or are you just mouthing words to try and sound like you know stuff? I can't tell the difference anymore. Most or atleast much of your arguments are to agree and then say "however it doesn't matter because"...

And in this case it didn't matter because... Hey you were most likely to block that super... There's like a huge difference.

Hit is what makes the strategy attractive. Safety is what makes the strategy viable. Hit is what makes the strategy good at any level. in sde, hit was much less likely. In mde, hit is much more likely... That alone changes everything. And in mde it's even worse since you get so much damage upfront mostly unscaled and with no dizzy applied so you can full combo from stage 5. So yeah it's pretty powerful in many respects. And it's so far a cry from sde... It's like damn near unimaginable you would make that argument... But here we are.


W/e I'm over it. It will most likely stay in in its current form and be abused damn near the same way dhc glitch was abused. I know I will be abusing it as long as it is in the game. I abused low roundhouse customs in a2, I don't see why not to abuse this in sg.

However let me make one thing clear, again, for like the third time as to what my opinion is:

Hitstop as a way to prevent counter super is a good idea.
Hitstop giving unblockable after the flash effects is way to strong and ENCOURAGES random super.
Hitstop unblockables after flash are the fastest reversals in the game COMBINED WITH THE FURTHEST RANGE, COMBINED WITH BEING THE FASTEST MOVES IN THE GAME, combined with having some of the most invincible frames in the game, combined with being able to tack on easy EXTRA DAMAGE via dhc or extra damage via SAFE dhc.

They went from being slightly underpowered to being recklessly overpowered.

My posts have always been to turn them from that overpowered state into something good but not completely braindead and op.

But if it stays, then like any true fg player I'll just build my team around it. Like how dhc glitch had almost every top team in marvel built around it.
 
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Vladislav_Paizis said:
I wish I could change my negative vote, because at this point Diamond Dynamo is a better reversal for Cerebella than her awful Devil Horns move.

Devil Horns is for AA, tbh. It's amazing AA.
 
View619 said:
Devil Horns is for AA, tbh. It's amazing AA.
It feels like it was designed JUST to blow up Filia.
 
I thought devil horns had a terrible hitbox?
 
ragnorok64 said:
I thought devil horns had a terrible hitbox?

A terrible horizontal hit-box yeah. The vertical hit box is ridiculous though.

iLoli said:
It feels like it was designed JUST to blow up Filia.

I figure it was designed to deal with air dashes in general, but then you don't really have anybody mashing on air dash attacks more than players mashing on Filia j.hp.
 
To be fair to that point, Fortune's outright air dash is a little too slow to get hit by DH, and her stupid head on J.HP airdash is wayy to fast to DH.

Peacock's never dashing at Bella.

Val's airdash sends her upwards.
 
What about keeping hitstun as is and changing the inputs to be 236 236 *button input* ?

Mashing problem fixed.
 
For the benefit of the class (i.e. the old guy here not familiar with the term) can someone explain exactly what "hitstop" is?
I'm assuming from the posts here it has to do with a super flash animation beginning and the opponent not being able to do anything but some clarification would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
Hitstop is the frames during which either you or your opponent is frozen, usually done to add weight to the attack to make it seems stronger. Every move in the game has at least some hitstop, you can notice this because your animation stops for a few frames whenever you hit the opponent with a move or vice versa. Its most noticable on moves like Cerebella's standing HP. Hitstop also eats up any command done during its frames. Skullgirls has a buffer that makes it so that the last move you inputted during hitstop will come out frame 1 after hitstop if its valid. Multiple commands, like an airdash cancel into jumping HP, will not happen if input during hitstop. In that case you only get the air dash, since its the last valid input.

In this case, the hitstop happens during the super flash. It only affects the opponent, and for most supers it lasts until the first few active frames of the super. That means that even if an opponent inputs a block during the superflash, the command will not actually happen until the end of the hitstop. So, for supers that have the hitstop property, it results in them being unblockable on reaction to the super flash, since the opponent's block is eaten up by the hitstop long enough that the super has become active and hit them.
 
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you pretty much had it right, basically hitstop locks you in place for a few frames the moment a superflash happens which causes supers to hit you for doing something other than blocking. The only supers this doesn't apply too are Daisy pusher, Ultimate showstopper, and double's car from behind
 
I googled hitstop because I don't know what it is and I find this: Hit stop: the frame of freeze when for both attacker and defender when the attack connect after defender goes in hit stun/block stun and attaccker in recovery frames of the attack or in the next attack if cancel.

I still don't get what it exactly is though...if someone can please explain it

Sorry the answer is a few posts above! Nevermind!
 
mpgame99 said:
you pretty much had it right, basically hitstop locks you in place for a few frames the moment a superflash happens which causes supers to hit you for doing something other than blocking. The only supers this doesn't apply too are Daisy pusher, Ultimate showstopper, and double's car from behind

That's not even close to a comprehensive list. You missed Squigly Battle Opera, almost every level 3 super, Silent Scope, Motor Brigade, Argus Agony, Lenny, Cat-Heads, and Crossup Scalpels.
 
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