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Spotlight How to Make Fighting Games: Mike Z explains the dos and don'ts

I'd be curious to hear some criticism of Skullgirls from the similar point of view. I know in the video MikeZ mentioned that were time and money not a thing, we'd be able to be in training in between matches. I'd be interested to hear of some other things on the wish-list were time and money infinite. Related, I'd be curious to know what things would be done differently if the team was starting at the beginning.

Anyway, great watch. Thanks, Mike.
 
There's a subtle reason for this, which has to do with preserving charge and not requiring things like cross-cuts.
If previous inputs are stored as "Down, Down-Right, Right+Punch" and evaluated based on your character's facing direction on the frame it is finished (when you press Punch), all these problems disappear.
As long as you did the motion properly for the direction you're facing when you press the button it will come out, regardless of what directions your character was facing in the middle of the motion.

Wow, that seems... kind of obvious now and I feel like an idiot for not really seeing it sooner... or thinking Lei Lei / Hsien Ko’s gongs were glitched because VSAV apparently handles this in a similar way as well. Hell, I’ve avoided playing some characters because of issues related to this sort of thing without realizing it.
 
I'd be curious to hear some criticism of Skullgirls from the similar point of view. I know in the video MikeZ mentioned that were time and money not a thing, we'd be able to be in training in between matches. I'd be interested to hear of some other things on the wish-list were time and money infinite. Related, I'd be curious to know what things would be done differently if the team was starting at the beginning.
Things I know *I* have a problem with, off the top of my head:
- Fight request with training mode
- Replay recording and playback, online and offline (holy crap) with hitboxes/slow-mo/etc
- Reserve Unit (it's coming eventually I promise)
- Changing team order on loading screen online
- Start loading game assets as soon as teams are picked to shorten loading times
- Tutorials for things that are missing like PBGC and Undizzy
- Challenge mode for combos
- Show-Me mode
- Change assist type from training menu and character-specific assist options
- Allowing a CPU player in Versus mode
- Versus screen and Win screen (memory issue, unfortunately)
- Retry option in Ranked so you can play multiple times, with 2nd+ not affecting your score - this may be doable now...
- Caching all the menu text so it doesn't take forever for a menu to come up on console...er...maybe I can do this now...
- Possibly doing All-Play lobbies in the "you queue up on a side" way instead
- Play back a replay in Training Mode, and choose a spot to set a savestate and use one of the players as the Dummy Recording, so you can try out in-match situations yourself.

None of this would have changed what we'd done initially. I'd still have chosen to skip move lists, etc, because we had very little time.
If we'd had more time with actually being paid, more of it would exist, though.
 
- Retry option in Ranked so you can play multiple times, with 2nd+ not affecting your score - this may be doable now...
The salty runback option! That would be the best!
 
- Tutorials for things that are missing like PBGC and Undizzy
I hope to see this happen. Also a tutorial for double snaps.
 
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- Replay recording and playback, online and offline (holy crap) with hitboxes/slow-mo/etc
I'm really interested in what makes this difficult to implement, if you don't mind me asking.
 
I'm really interested in what makes this difficult to implement, if you don't mind me asking.
Short answer: Not a lot, just time.
We already support recording and playback, we even used it for Friday Night Fights. But it just does fopen/fwrite to a hardcoded dir, which I am SURE is not how that's supposed to work on console. Things like checking for available hard drive space, etc, all the little support-y details of that.
We also don't have UI for browsing/deleting/playing them back.
So at this point it's that my time is spent on characters because we will soon be out of money.
 
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Ironicly enough, look what jumped out today:

Extra Credits

Outsider people are way too respectful of how smart fighting games are. You need endless research much less than you need to have done the dragon punch and fireball motions thousands of times, blocked weak mixups thousands of times, etc. Tennis is hard, and you have to think in tennis, but if you can't usually make all the core tennis shots it doesn't matter how smart you are. Sitting through a tennis tutorial telling you what "love" means is trivial next to the mountain of time, give-a-damn, and suffered beatings you will ultimately invest. Tutorials are good and a good fighter should have them, but they can't really even make a dent in the accessibility of fighters.
 
@obregon

You are 100% correct for sure. That said, I am guessing there is a fairly large group of people that pick up a FG only to put it down an hour later in a state of confusion.

A good tutorial is not designed to make everyone a Daigo or even a fairly average player like I am. It is to break down the initial learning cliff to accelerate the very beginning and help to grow our noobs into less-noobs.
 
Short answer: Not a lot, just time.
We already support recording and playback, we even used it for Friday Night Fights. But it just does fopen/fwrite to a hardcoded dir, which I am SURE is not how that's supposed to work on console.

Thats cool.

How are Microsoft/Sony in terms of documentation?
 
I feel that we're scared to make FGs more accesible in fear that it removes the depth we've come to love, to the point that we seem to want them to remain a niche/elitist genre.
 
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- Reserve Unit (it's coming eventually I promise)

- Change assist type from training menu and character-specific assist options
What's Reserve Unit? Is that like a saved team setting? And character-specific assist options? So like Filia would have a Parasoul exclusive assist?
Tutorials are good and a good fighter should have them, but they can't really even make a dent in the accessibility of fighters.
I have first hand experience that says that's not true. It wasn't until Skullgirls and it's training mode that I even started to really get all the complex depth fighting games could have. I sorta knew certain things, sorta knew other things, but before this tutorial framed it all for me, I would just play fighting games cause they were pretty and I liked punching people in the face. I tried to play SF4, GG, SCV, BB, and MVC3, and I just couldn't get to the depth any of them had. They all felt like I actually required all this extra knowledge and experience to even start, knowledge that I had no clue how to obtain, and as a result I never really started.
 
I feel that we're scared to make FGs more accesible in fear that it removes the depth we've come to love, to the point that we seem to want them to remain a niche/elitist genre.
doubt it. the "Harada method" seems like a more rational explanation, even if it is bullshit

i mean, DAMN! Almost Everything that could be done to make skullgirls easy to learn and punch people casually was made, and it's still a very technical game with complex combos and strategies

the fact SF4 never got F*CKING TUTORIAL TEACHING THE PROPERTIES OF A FOCUS ATTACK, can only be justified as laziness or a deliberate decision.

The frame data was never added to the game, what COULD be explained by not having to change it every time they update the game, but they CHARGE for the updates!
and now there's the bradygames app, because you NEED two screens and devices to check the details on training mode right?
 
I always think "Uh oh" whenever I see Mike Z quoting me.
Maybe if you took the same amount of time it takes you to type out the question to look for the answer, you wouldn't have that sense of dread. <3

So! Who wants to put me in contact with the Extra Credits people without me doing it myself? Heh.
I am curious to see what they think of SG's tutorials, because while we didn't do it as hand-holdey as we could, I have had a TON of people tell me they never really understood fighting games until SG.
 
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Maybe if you took the same amount of time it takes you to type out the question to look for the answer, you wouldn't have that sense of dread. <3
Well... to be fair, typing in "reserve unit" by itself gives you like military links. I didn't know it was from MVC3.

Edit: This only means I have a sorta excuse this time, though.

So! Who wants to put me in contact with the Extra Credits people without me doing it myself? Heh.
I sent them a youtube PM earlier today, saying how I'd like to see a fighting game episode of Design Club (or something) and suggested you as a person who could help them. But I'm a nobody. Here's their twitter.
 
@Mike_Z gets + 10 cookies for using let me google that for you!

also mike, thank you five times over for putting the are you sure thing when picking a team online
 
salty runback option in ranked would be awesome. saves me time going into unranked and sending match invites and hoping they bite.
 
do: bringback mde and sde
don't: put big band in your fighting game
p simple
 
salty runback option in ranked would be awesome. saves me time going into unranked and sending match invites and hoping they bite.

Being able to request rematches vs a decent player from ranked instead of creating a room and sending an invite, hoping they will join is preferable. Granted, those who really care about their score won't join you anyway because rank is so important...
 
This helped so much when watching it, I even took notes just to make sure.
 
I really want to make a fighting game and I will take that entire video into consideration. It really did explain a lot of stuff.
 
<pet peeve>
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=reserve unit mvc3
</pet peeve>
You didn't say "Like in UMvC3" anywhere in your post. You just said "Reserve Unit".
How is someone who hasn't played Marvel 3 supposed to know that it's a MvC3 thing/term/whatever?
Just googling "Reserve Unit" doesn't really help http://lmgtfy.com/?q=reserve unit

"Reserve Unit 'fighting game'" and similar searches sort-of work if you know what you're looking for (that search -for example- gives as 5th result THIS THREAD, that's how often the term gets used),
but that it's a fighting game term and not some programmer slang or whatever is already an assumption which one had to make on the basis of nothing.

Don't give insufficient info just so you can act haughty when people don't know what you're talking about.
If you have to do that, at least go all the way and write something like "RU (IceIp)" instead, that'd be so confusing it could heighten your horse to skyscraper levels. How nice!
 
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I'd be curious to hear some criticism of Skullgirls from the similar point of view. I know in the video MikeZ mentioned that were time and money not a thing, we'd be able to be in training in between matches. I'd be interested to hear of some other things on the wish-list were time and money infinite. Related, I'd be curious to know what things would be done differently if the team was starting at the beginning.

Anyway, great watch. Thanks, Mike.


Clear.pause.screen.

With a completely white background.


Why? So i and others can see the motherfucking hitboxes at any individual frame rather than having to do slowmo over Andover and still not be able to easily see the frame that one wants to see.

The biggest travesty of sg is not having a clear pause menu to go with those juicy hitboxes. Its like using the worlds greatest paints with the worlds shittiest paintbrush.


Also, just to make it known, mike cant do a clear pause screen because he didnt do the training mode ui and simply... Doesnt know how to make a clear pause screen.

I literally asked for that option months before vanilla sg was ever released.
 
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dammit Mike Z, now you made me dig up my Dreamcast just to try this out. And I don't even play Potemkin

also, shout-outs to FDC combos
 
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<extremely thoughtful response with good info>

(late reply... very long day yesterday)
I appreciate you responding even though this isn't a subject that you necessarily care for. And I also appreciate the depth and detail of your response.

And yes, perhaps my category distinctions, though debatably applicable and useful, could use some finessing as to not make unintentional implications (footsies def still apply in games like marvel and SG.)

I dont bring up categorization in hopes that you would necessarily buy into that line of thinking, but because for the sake of my questions, I had to establish my line of thinking that certain chunkings of fighting games have more mechanical/systemic similarities to others in their own chunk rather than between chunks. Nor do I come from a marketing perspective, because yeah: whatever to all that. It has little bearing upon game design, aside from seeking funding from a studio/publisher.

I was mainly trying to set the baseline for this: In a single game, smash bros, an entirely new approach to fighting games was birthed. Yes, it shares many fundamentals and whatnot, but I consider it a whole new lane to follow in terms of fighting game development.

Or consider the lineage of games that couldve been birthed if people followed in the path first forged by Bushido Blade.

Or even with street fighter: before it, what was there- karate champ? Someone carved that first path.

Are there paths yet to forge? Or has everything been explored that doesn't involve creating a new meter or gimmick? That was the heart of my rambling.


But I totally understand your answer to that question, and it makes great sense. People make what they know, what they like, and what they find fun. And the depth of their understanding determines the depth of their product. That also makes me think that the depth of their understanding, or lack thereof, will determine the offshoots that emerge.

With that said, who knows when new 'categories' will ever be birthed, since folks dont like to study any more, as evidenced by these kickstarters and mainstream sequels that abandon genre history (as you illustrated in your panel).


Anyway, thanks for sharing.
 
I need to find time to watch this video, because the discussion in the thread it has caused is pretty excellent by itself. Enjoyed the "why" question and answer about crossup input flipping especially.

Quick, how are you supposed to tell if you've woken up or not?
When you get hit by the oki.
 
So! Who wants to put me in contact with the Extra Credits people without me doing it myself? Heh.
I am curious to see what they think of SG's tutorials, because while we didn't do it as hand-holdey as we could, I have had a TON of people tell me they never really understood fighting games until SG.

Welp I twitted them so... don't say I never did anything. Your talk with Maximilian on Salty Cupcakes is still one of my most favourite things ever so I'd really look forward to a collaboration episode.
 
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dammit Mike Z, now you made me dig up my Dreamcast just to try this out. And I don't even play Potemkin

also, shout-outs to FDC combos
WTF happened on that second combo? How the hell did he get the scaling to scale a Heavenly Pot Buster's damage upwards?
 
Finally, the Extra Creditz guys always have interesting perspectives on things. They almost never go over something in a way I've thought of it before. So I would kinda really like to hear them talk about the competitive side of fighting games. Regardless of how it happens, them doing a fighting game episode will make me happy, and I'll see something in a new light.
 
...So I would kinda really like to hear them talk about the competitive side of fighting games...

I agree. Even if it wasn't by them, it would be nice to see someone put together a well thought out and developed video on the subject.
 
@tekkaxe
I would argue that SF and Marvel have more commonalities than differences, and POSSIBLY even the same for SF and Smash. I do agree that Smash is a very different take because the goal is not simply "deplete a resource" but instead "deplete a resource enough that you can force the opposing character to go somewhere they don't want to go, then do that", but there are still hits and throws and blocking and walking and projectiles and blockstun and hitstun and things.

@Fizzxwizz
Well, we put a lot of thought into the character select, positioning and UI flow, but not sure what you're asking.