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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

Tank said:
ff7 aries death 8-bit vs 3d
omg I can't believe you just spoiled Aerith's death.

Won't deny that for story telling stuff 3D can often work better, but dang if FF6 doesn't have some truly riveting story sequences. Doom Train, yo.

Either way, Shovel Knight is not a story heavy game, but excels at just fantastic gameplay so graphics interrupting the intense emotional attachment is not much of an issue. I also don't particularly like the NES aesthetic, but I gave SK a shot anyway and it's probably the best game I've played on 3DS.
(Though even having said that, the Plague Knight expansion has some really nice storytelling regardless.)
 
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Tank said:
Dancing with an ugly girl works the same as dancing with a cute girl, but you want to dance the the cute one again.
Unless the cute girl turned out to be huge bitch. Are you the kind of guy that just dances with girls but doesn't talk to them? Because you should at least try to get to know them if you're going to put in the effort to dance with them.

Yes, this is an analogy.
 
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As I see it, 3D games can be more story focused, but a story-focused 2D game can be pretty deep or intrigueing. For example, how about VNs? They aren't 3D cutscenes but can be just as engaging.

It's not really fair to said 3D is more engaging until you play the games i nquestion.
 
Verdant Brave said:
Unless the cute girl turned out to be huge bitch. Are you the kind of guy that just dances with girls but doesn't talk to them? Because you should at least try to get to know them if you're going to put in the effort to dance with them.

Yes, this is an analogy.
Unpacking the analogy, I was actually put off by Shovel Knight's gameplay, not the graphics. If anything, the graphics just made the Trouple King that much funnier. However, I've never played Megaman, didn't grow up on Nintendo, so I didn't grow up on Nintendo Hard. I had a brief foray into Super Meat Boy, but that's about it. And I seem to have lost a lot of my patience since then. Well, that, and deaths don't punish you that much in SMB; except for Bandage collecting and secrets, they're actually rewarding. Deaths in Shovel Knight hurt, especially if you die trying to get the gold from your previous death...
 
Tank said:
Aerith's death 2d vs 3d
Buuuuuuuuuuuuut that's comparing a scene that was originally MADE in 3D (by the team working on a game that cost $45 million to make and $100 million to market), with a scene made by a fan in a romhack which is limited by the capabilities of the engine that's on an NES...that's like saying "my imitation of the Mona Lisa constructed entirely out of Cheetos in 15 minutes does not have the impact of the original." Duh, of course not.

[edit]
Also Aerith's actual death scene in FF7 is a CINEMATIC! It's not in-game, it has nothing to do with whether the GAME is 2D or 3D! Plenty of 2D games have cinematics...Alundra, Mega Man X4...come ON!

Instead, how about you compare
Crono's death
to Aerith's, by playing both games.
I GUARANTEE they will have the same impact. 2D vs 3D has no bearing, it's HOW you use the available materials.
In fact Crono's affected me way more, I didn't really feel all that attached to Aerith because of the way Cloud acted.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Instead, how about you compare
Crono's death
to Aerith's, by playing both games.
I GUARANTEE they will have the same impact. 2D vs 3D has no bearing, it's HOW you use the available materials.
In fact Crono's affected me way more, I didn't really feel all that attached to Aerith because of the way Cloud acted.
Agreed.. Crono being your main man saves everyone... then given the option to save him or not.. making the ending even more painful and special if you don't and the revival just as special.

...I feel silly putting CT stuff in spoiler tags.
 
Kit Ballard said:
...I feel silly putting CT stuff in spoiler tags.

It's not silly CT was legit spoiled for me over the course of this conversation. lol. its all good though.
 
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Tank said:
It's not silly CT was legit spoiled for me over the course of this conversation. lol. its all good though.
I dono why I'm laughing so hard right now. I'm sorry XD I'm so used to CT being known since it was out when I was still a teen.
 
Have to agree with Mike: 2d vs 3d cinematics are kind of irrelevant. In the end it's the writing that decides the impact of the scene. Everything else is secondary IMO.

If spritework truly undermines a scene, and you can't do anything above nes/snes sprites, you could always just use little comic-book-cutscenes like Phantasy Star IV.

On that note (do not click if you haven't played PS IV)
Alys death > Aeris death

"Horror" is one of the only "feels" that can't be properly accomplished in 2d gameplay, IMO. BUT you can still achieve a dark, surreal, or unnerving atmosphere in 2d, even if you can't make people fall out of their chair with fright (during gameplay, you could still have a terrifying story). X-Multiply and Splatterhouse are great examples of macabre atmosphere during 2d gameplay IMO.
 
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Missed this but:

Tank said:
This is more story based than gameplay based but it does a good enough job at showing what i see. meh story is gameplay.

Unless you're directly interacting and making choices that affect the story throughout all its stages, no story is not gameplay.

That makes about as much sense as saying "music is gameplay". Or "visual art is gameplay".

Tank said:
analogy time.
Dancing with an ugly girl works the same as dancing with a cute girl, but you want to dance the the cute one again.

Here's a better analogy

Playing a 2d game with okay-ish graphics, but well designed gameplay/writing/whatever is like dating an ugly girl who's your soulmate.

Whereas playing a game with okay gameplay/writing/whatever but fantastic graphics is like dating a beautiful girl who you have no connection with.

I'd prefer the former.
 
I know I just made a joke about spoiling decades old character deaths up there, but would it hurt to mention in the spoiler tag what game you're about to spoil? ;_;
I have had at least one game spoiled on me in here so far thanks to just opening the spoilers unknowingly.
 
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^^^ You really shouldn't open spoiler boxes when people are referencing games you haven't played then.

Also re: "people only like 2d because nostalgia". I grew up homeschooled with a number of game consoles at my disposal, from the nes to ps2, and when you have nothing to do all day besides study and replay the same game library over and over, you start to realize what's really important in games. Music and visuals are nice, but you can enjoy them both without actually needing to play or replay a game. Gameplay and story on the other hand are another matter, and the games with superior gameplay and writing always remained fun on replay while the ones that just had nice visuals and music didn't.
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
Unless you're directly interacting and making choices that affect the story throughout all its stages, no story is not gameplay.

The definition for game and thus the definition for game play is kinda vague.

I'm playing a game right now called XBLAZE Code: Embryo. It is literally a rated M visual novel game on a PS3 cd. The only form of interacting you have is reading a text message or not reading a text message. I can go through the whole game with out reading any messages and that's the gameplay but i didn't interact with anything but still advance in the game.

Not interacting is interacting in this case. ever seen luigi wins by doing absolutley nothing? That's still gameplay.

Squire Grooktook said:
Here's a better analogy

Playing a 2d game with okay-ish graphics, but well designed gameplay/writing/whatever is like dating an ugly girl who's your soulmate.

Whereas playing a game with okay gameplay/writing/whatever but fantastic graphics is like dating a beautiful girl who you have no connection with.

what about the game with fantastic graphics and designed gameplay/writing vs the game with okay-ish graphics and well designed gameplay/writing?

The only thing that changes is the graphics not the gameplay or story. That's what I said. You compared something different. the only variable i'm changing is the graphics.

the ugly and cute girls in my analogy do the exact same thing they just look different.
 
Cellsai said:
I know I just made a joke about spoiling decades old character deaths up there, but would it hurt to mention in the spoiler tag what game you're about to spoil? ;_;
I have had at least one game spoiled on me in here so far thanks to just opening the spoilers unknowingly.
You saying this makes me want to post more spoilers.

How about a 9 year old character death? (HL2)

I found
Eli's
death to be extremely impactful thanks to the top notch voice acting and animation. I'd like to see someone make that 2d ;b. I say if you're going to kill someone and have it be emotional make it a 3D or close to it cutscene.
 
Tank said:
The definition for game and thus the definition for game play is kinda vague.

I'm playing a game right now called XBLAZE Code: Embryo. It is literally a rated M visual novel game on a PS3 cd. The only form of interacting you have is reading a text message or not reading a text message. I can go through the whole game with out reading any messages and that's the gameplay but i didn't interact with anything but still advance in the game.

Not interacting is interacting in this case. ever seen luigi wins by doing absolutley nothing? That's still gameplay.

I had a massive argument with Horseman about my middling stance on visual novels, I have no desire to open up that can of worms again :3

The Luigi example is different because he still can do something to alter the course of the mini-game, if he so chooses.

Tank said:
what about the game with fantastic graphics and designed gameplay/writing vs the game with okay-ish graphics and well designed gameplay/writing?

That depends, are we talking the exact same kind of gameplay?

For example is it literally the same game except for visual presentation? If so sure, go with the graphics if they are exactly the same otherwise.

It's just that that situation never actually appears outside of remakes, and even remakes sometimes are inferior to their original version due to slight tweaks, port inaccuracies, etc.

Shovel Knight is its own thing, gameplay wise. There's no "Shovel Knight with better graphics" out there. So that analogy really doesn't work. It's the case with most games too: almost no two games are alike, and even ones that are clones sharing similar genres and/or sub-genres tend to have enough subtle differences to make them feel different from eachother to an observer with developed taste in the genre.


Also, this is off topic from the current line of thought, but relevant to the conversation. Better graphics don't always equal superior aesthetics. Sometimes remakes with enhanced graphics do not capture the charm of the original artwork. Compare Final Fantasy 4's lovingly crafted pixel art, character portraits, animations, etc. to the 3d remake currently on ds and steam *shudder*. Shovel Knight's sprite art is very well drawn and quite good, and a 3d or graphically enhanced remake wouldn't necessarily look better from an artistic standpoint.
 
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Mike_Z said:
2D vs 3D has no bearing, it's HOW you use the available materials.

That's the best statement to resolve the 2D vs 3D discussion (if it wasn't already).

Each has their own tradeoffs that can make any style and execution unique. All that's needed is a fundamental understanding of utilization. In fact I don't think these disciplines should be compared at all. They're both different methods of doing the same thing.
 
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Cellsai said:
I know I just made a joke about spoiling decades old character deaths up there, but would it hurt to mention in the spoiler tag what game you're about to spoil? ;_;
I have had at least one game spoiled on me in here so far thanks to just opening the spoilers unknowingly.
I mean you did open spoilers, so that's kinda your thing...but also I had no idea it was possible to title a spoiler box!

Also aren't you like at least 25? You have no excuse for not having played CT yet!
 
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Just take a good look at Undertale: the game is completely on 2D and a lot of people love it (I won't say everyone because there's always a few people that won't like you, no matter what you do). In certain part of the game (not risking the whole "you spoiled me!" thing), the graphics change, and it definitely shocks you. That's a nice and creative way to use different kind of graphics to your advantage as a story teller. Also, there's Lisa: The Painful RPG. The atmosphere of that game gives me the creeps, especially because some sprites can be disturbing, and the way the game throws them at you, well, dang.

Remember Super Mario 64: It was a milestone in gaming history, with its 3D graphics and huge stages, yet the plot was basically an excuse to put Mario into his first 3D adventure. Guillermo del Toro once said that, the more money a project has, the less imagination the makers will pour into it. Good thing L0 is the exception! So let's give them all of our money.
 
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Chrono's and Aeris "deaths" are insignificant compared to:

kEQgQ6y.png
 
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E!Damnation said:
Guillermo del Toro once said that, the more money a project has, the less imagination the makers will pour into it. Good thing L0 is the exception! So let's give them all of our money.

Reminds me also of the idea that overcoming limitations often breeds creativity.

MysticSpirit said:
Chrono's and Aeris "deaths" are insignificant compared to:

I wouldn't say insignificant, but Phantasy Star is so damn good. I wish I had some time to play more of the first two right now.
 
Mike_Z said:
You have no excuse for not having played CT yet!

Can't speak for Cellsai, but I didn't have a SNES growing up (went from the NES to Genesis, cuz Sanic). To this day, I still haven't even played through Super Mario World... T_T

I picked up Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross and was going to play it on Vita, but I decided to go through Alundra first since I wanted to play those two back to back. Maybe I'll forget by the time I'm done with that... lol!
 
Mike_Z said:
<3333

I got stuck after getting those swimming boots because I thought that was all you had to get in there (OoT Ice Cavern flashbacks I guess); so I just watched some of the Alundrathon stream and realized I was totally walking in circles, missing the path that was there the whole time... ^_^; Well, thanks Mike! (also I always cracked up when you were voicing Septimus!)
 
PS1 CT has a lot of loading time, tho. Avoid that one, seriously.
 

I'll concede for now. 4am here. Maybe well pick this up in a different thread.

I got a text pad full of responses i planed for various comments that i don't even remember goes to what.

(just so every ones clear the talk isn't 2d vs 3d its 8-bit vs better graphics cause skullgirls and the drifter dude exist. 3d is just a substitute for better graphics)

lets make eveybody happy
2D->3D2D->Real3D2D
process.png
 
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...reminds me that I should see how I can convert a model into a 3D printer readable model... There's a 3D printer at my library I would love to abuse.
 
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TaNooki said:
I got stuck after getting those swimming boots because I thought that was all you had to get in there (OoT Ice Cavern flashbacks I guess); so I just watched some of the Alundrathon stream and realized I was totally walking in circles, missing the path that was there the whole time... ^_^; Well, thanks Mike! (also I always cracked up when you were voicing Septimus!)
Be sure'n tune in this year, hehehehe. LOTS of optimizations, and no longer a 100% run.

And yeah, Septimus just...sounds like he looks, to me.
 
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All I can add to that conversation is, if you haven't played Chrono Trigger, you can't call yourself a real man yet.

Here's some desperately needed motivation to do so for those who didn't yet, I'll even post the german one (which is surprisingly well VA'd) to make it more interesting for you (no game spoiler):
 
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TetsuNoHitsuji said:
I think the way you are looking at it makes that darker bit at the bottom of the pad look like the inside, but I think it's actually a plate that wraps over the shoulder, and then has those handle things sticking out of them.
I still think it's wrong, I think part of her shoulder is supposed to show from beneath the shoulderpad, I made a picture to demonstrate, could someone from labzero clarify? @Mike_Z?

edit: nevermind I got it, was confused for a bit there, TetsuNoHitsuji is right
 

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infected melon said:
I still think it's wrong, I think part of her shoulder is supposed to show from beneath the shoulderpad, I made a picture to demonstrate, could someone from labzero clarify? @Mike_Z?

edit: nevermind I got it, was confused for a bit there, TetsuNoHitsuji is right
It is not like that. The shoulder pad has like a cover on the side, that you are mistaking with the inside.
 
Here's my take on dancing with girls. Looks are game's graphics. And AAA games aren't even always cute, most of the time they're conventionally attractive. Girls personality is game's story. Simple games are silent type, you have to guess yourself what she's thinking about, and games with shitty stories are bitches.
Gameplay is how she dances. Genre is her dancing style. If you prefer one in particular, you'll probably skip on lots of girls entirely. And lastly her dancing skill is how good design is thought out.
Some people are coming for light activity and prefer pretty girls who are pleasant to talk to, some are heavily into one type dance, so they don't care about anything else. Some guys just want a really good dance with a skillfull partner and they gladly will dance all night long with the ugliest bitch if she happens to be the best dancer in the room.
As of me, I would like a good connection in the dance, don't care if she talks at all and would like her to look pretty but my taste is kinda unconventional (let's say I prefer to dance with tall girls). And I don't care if she dresses fancy as long as she's tidy and has sense of style.
But I don't flirt or date them. Cause my mistress is cinematography and I mainly talk to her =]
 
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People are missing the obvious 2D vs 3D example with FF4 on SNES vs DS.

Personally, I'd say some things worked better in 2D, and some things worked better in 3D. So for me at the end of the day, 2D can convey dramatic scenes fine in a lot of cases (in that game).

Also for people talking about dancing girls (?), FF4 even has that as well :V
 
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Honestly...Indivisible has gotten the most media coverage I've ever seen on an indie game's crowdfunding camp, and most of it, like 90%, is positive! Just all the people pushing it! Yes...we're not exploding in success. Makes me wonder, why? Ya know? I get there are some that aren't that interested and a number of people have said that from the outside the game doesn't look super interesting from the prototype, but few can say much if anything negative about it.
 
From what I've heard, crowd funding campaigns usually get a huge jump at the end as people stop procrastinating with their donations. So yeah it looks like we aren't exploding in success yet, but it's reasonable to think that we might be fairly soon. Still don't stop promoting this game as much as you can though.
 
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