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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

I dunno. The whole casual friendly thing weirds me out, but I can just ignore it. So yeah we'll see in a year.


Huh, I thought I posted this already.
 
Not-So-Saint said:
skipping platforming would break the pace and I'm not sure how you can easify it either.
There's the "New Super Mario Brothers Wii Turbo Ultra Arcade Edition" route of having Ajna's younger, taller, supposedly-less-popular sister go through the levels for her. Or you could have a "Spirit Vision" that makes a palette swap ghost AI go through the next screen's worth of plot-path for her.

Or, if we want to be really sadistic towards the developers, there's the "American McGee's Alice" option of dynamic puzzles that change with the difficulty. (Smaller platforms, faster movement in areas with tricky timing, etc... I still need to play that game, come to think of it...) "Story Mode" could be "Corridor Simulator 2018." "And I beheld as the challenge level fell from the Heavens... like Lightning!"
 
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The Dave said:
I still need to play that game, come to think of it...
It's pretty good. I'm a fan of American McGee. I think I still have the 360 game laying around here. I know for a fact my desktop's hard drive has the old version (based on Q3's engine) on it.
 
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Yeah, given how L0/mike is, I doubt we will get an easy mode. Accept the challenge and get good enough to beat the game, or don't play.

I'll probably at least attempt (and probably succeed) to beat every super hard bonus boss the game offers me just as a way to accept the gameplay challenge L0/Mike have presented to me. Unlike other RPGs, you know it's beatable, the challenge is to figure out the secret strategy they left in to beat it, using the best of your ability. Yes, even if it takes forever.

Remember when video games were supposed to be challenging???
 
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Cheesedragon said:
Yeah, given how mike is, we will never get an easy mode. Accept the challenge and get good enough to beat the game, or don't play.

Counterpoint: He did make Nightmare Marie easier for Story Mode.

And, you know, Sleepwalk Difficulty.
 
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I think you mean, Mike doesn't really want to hold the player's hand. He'll gladly show you what is there in the game you can do, but after that he's like "You figure out the rest Jack."

Like in SG, you get the basic coverage in the tutorials but after that it's up to you to figure out optimal combos, which moves to use when punishing stuff, which reset to use in a given situation, which characters to synergize to your team/ what assists/ alpha counters/ other stuff. The list goes on.

So yeah I think I can see Mike doing the same thing here with Indivisible where the game tells you "Hey~! This weapon is pretty good for [certain type of combat] and you can use it to help you traverse the environment [state example here]"

Just like in the beta where you picked up the Axe, it told you that you now have a weapon for combat and that if can help you go thru vines and it can be helpful in other ways" Later on Mike did the classic hint in the environment with the background axe in the wall. I can expect this being the same for the other weapons. Like when Ajna gets the Chain 'n Sickle there might be a section where you have to look up [cool feature thanks for that Mike~] and see like a rafter that is being hit with a beam of sunlight breaking thru the roof of an abandoned pagoda. That way the player is like "hmmmmm maybe i could use this new weapon I have gotten to swing across that rafter and land on the other side of the camera."

Idk. It's their game, I'm sure they will make it super cool and interesting in how they teach the player to experiment with their new found weapons. Remember, this is gonna be like Metroid.
 
Just give the player a golden tanooki suit if they die too many times. And then make it so that just seeing the suit show up means your save file can never have shiny stars on it, even if you didn't actually use the suit.

Okay joking aside it's always good when games have options, might as well include something. Perhaps the hints themselves could change based on difficulty setting. "Use it to traverse the environment in new ways" and the axe embedded in the background was a very clever use of show and not tell, but some people out there might need things spelled out for them more than that.

Just don't have something randomly pop up when I didn't previously ask for help or turn on easy mode. Don't be the Microsoft Paperclip.
 
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Cheesedragon said:
Yeah, given how mike is, we will never get an easy mode. Accept the challenge and get good enough to beat the game, or don't play.

I'll probably at least attempt (and probably succeed) to beat every super hard bonus boss the game offers me just as a way to accept the gameplay challenge L0/Mike have presented to me. Unlike other RPGs, you know it's beatable, the challenge is to figure out the secret strategy they left in to beat it, using the best of your ability. Yes, even if it takes forever.

Remember when video games were supposed to be challenging???
http://skullheart.com/index.php?posts/356958

This was a few posts above yours. That doesn't seem like never.

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Ninja said:
Later on Mike did the classic hint in the environment with the background axe in the wall.
Yeah, that hint was brilliant, and it looked like there were a lot of players that really appreciated the subtlety of it. But then, of course, we also saw the people that got up to that spot in the game and assumed it was over. I've even watched some people playing that never bothered to try doing a jump-attack the whole time they were playing.

Then we probably saw even more people that had trouble holding the attack button down for a consistent axe-climb, and more people than that seemed to forget how to target enemies when they got to the Boss. We also had people complain about the balance of the entire Prototype based on the difficulty of reaching and defeating a totally optional Boss. It's been a pretty funny mixture of mindsets and opinions so far, from considerably knowledgeable players, so I wonder if the Labzero team can come up with the magic recipe of options to help accommodate them in the final game.

One thing that I find surprising though, is that none of the people I'm describing ever seemed to have trouble figuring out how to walljump. Very few games I played when I was little had walljumping, so I bet if I had put my 10-year old self at the controls, I'd have probably gotten stuck right at the beginning!
 
KaboomKid said:
so I wonder if the Labzero team can come up with the magic recipe of options to help accommodate them in the final game.
I'd prefer they make the game the way they want to make it.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
I'd prefer they make the game the way they want to make it.
Using suggestions they like has been the way they've been making games so far.

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KaboomKid said:
Yeah, that hint was brilliant, and it looked like there were a lot of players that really appreciated the subtlety of it. But then, of course, we also saw the people that got up to that spot in the game and assumed it was over. I've even watched some people playing that never bothered to try doing a jump-attack the whole time they were playing.

I blame other video games that dumb down the amount of brain power the player has to use during a game. This has been going on for quite a while so when a player reaches that first axe cling section and think "What the heck? I can't get up... oh well end of game." It is because other games have these obvious solutions [I'm talking about glowing hints or pointers or that kind of shit] and have conditioned people into expecting those sort of things. This is one of the reasons why I feel like many people have forgotten about Metroid, like they now think games like Indivisible as Metroid-vania and that Metroid-vania translates to is having the map in a grid format and some secrets with forced item upgrades that are needed to progress thru the lvl.

I personally wish for Mike to keep the original design elements that were put into Metroid's lvl design where it made the player think and feel like exploring and experimenting different weapons on different stuff and you know... be rewarded by those experiments.

bleg i shouldn't be typing at 1:40 am. this probably sounds really disjointed and dumb. I want to work to discover stuff in Indivisible. there actual thought formed in my head.
 
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KaboomKid said:
One thing that I find surprising though, is that none of the people I'm describing ever seemed to have trouble figuring out how to walljump. Very few games I played when I was little had walljumping, so I bet if I had put my 10-year old self at the controls, I'd have probably gotten stuck right at the beginning!
I actually spent a while trapped in one corridor before finally realizing "Hey maybe I should check to see if walljumping exists in this game?" Yeah, I felt like a total idiot once it dawned on me.

Also, while I was running through the outdoor area was when I noticed Ajna would flash if I held attack while in the air, and started trying to figure out what that meant. Then I hit the wall to the next room, and was like "Oh, neat, I'm guessing I probably use this to gain height somehow" but no matter what I did I couldn't seem to gain height or figure out any use for it. After five more minutes of playing on that one wall I was like "Wait, what if I'm just hitting an invisible ceiling out here?" ...Yup.

I am not a clever man.
 
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@J-Boogie said:
Using suggestions they like has been the way they've been making games so far.
There is a difference between taking input, or even targeting an audience, and trying to please every single person.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
There is a difference between taking input, or even targeting an audience, and trying to please every single person.
"Every single person" includes people that aren't even interested in the game though. What we're talking about here, are people that played and (I'd assume) enjoyed the Prototype, but for whatever reason, seemed to miss a big step in fully understanding the game. Lab Zero will still be taking feedback from these kinds of players, so we'll see what they decide to do with it. For some players, this game could end up being like their first Super Metroid, or their first time enjoying a game with ATB style battles, so easing them in will be pretty important too.

Ninja said:
I personally wish for Mike to keep the original design elements that were put into Metroid's lvl design where it made the player think and feel like exploring and experimenting different weapons on different stuff and you know... be rewarded by those experiments.
Yeah, I'd love it if the game could reach that almost perfect balance of challenge, such that most players wouldn't even ask for difficulty modes, and they'd be willing to struggle with even the toughest parts of the game just to watch their skills improve. It was really cool to watch that happen on James Chen's stream of the Prototype, and it'd be great if more gamers could share an experience like he had.
 
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AdenPhoenix said:
There is a difference between taking input, or even targeting an audience, and trying to please every single person.
Well, yeah. But given prior experience (and we've got a lot of it across all the betas) what do you think Lab Zero's style is?

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KaboomKid said:
It was really cool to watch that happen on James Chen's stream of the Prototype, and it'd be great if more gamers could share an experience like he had.

oh my gosh that was actually a really good stream. His excitement when he was figuring out combos and him improving his skill with the axe climb was just so satisfying to watch. Also his cat was sucked into the game as well. Could not stop staring at the leafs in the wind, was super cute.
 
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fenster said:
Well I forgot the other thing that I wanted to ask, which is the complete opposite of what I asked earlier, but I assume there's gonna be some sort of "Skip Cutscene" function as well, right?
Yep. And I'm hoping Guacamelee-style death-retry cutscene shortening, that was AMAZING.

Cheesedragon said:
Yeah, given how mike is, we will never get an easy mode. Accept the challenge and get good enough to beat the game, or don't play.
Don't speak for me again. I'm not asking, this time.

Do you have ANY IDEA how many things Skullgirls does to make playing the game easier? Allowing you to input an airdash on the same frame you press Up to jump; allowing chains to be input up to 5f before the move even connects; not having HCT/HCB or more complicated motions; 360 no-jump buffering; allowing kara-cancels from one-button moves to multi-button moves (e.g. QCT+LP~LK can kara-cancel LP LnL to DDrop, or QCT+MP~MK can kara-cancel to snapback); not requiring 3P/3K, allowing leniency between buttons in 2P/2K; having assist calls be valid for up to 7f after the input; having configurable macros, adding extra assist commands for pad players; the MOST comprehensive how-to-play-fighting-games tutorial when it came out; Sleepwalk difficulty...etc.

I have a problem dumbing down high-level gameplay to make it easier for people who don't want to put in effort or learn, but I have nothing against making the basic game more accessible for people who are bad at games. I have even less problem with that for single-player games, because the point of those is not improvement or victory, just solo enjoyment.

There are already hella things like this in the Indivisible prototype, for example you can press Jump up to like 5f before landing and she'll immediately jump again when you are able to. Attack inputs are buffered. In the game now, dash inputs are buffered. Etc.

KaboomKid said:
Then we probably saw even more people that had trouble holding the attack button down for a consistent axe-climb
Pretty much nobody finds button holds without being explicitly told about them - the exception is for shooting. Axe climb is probably the worst-presented part of the prototype, IMO, but it's all we had time to do.
It's already planned to be a [non-held] separate button, even before the prototype - since there's Jump, Attack, Dash, and Action, air Action with axe -> chop that will hang.
 
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Look, if you guys really, REALLY want to hold hands in the platforming parts, just make a "shadow mode" that you can activate and show how to go up a single part or challenge, but DOESN'T skip it.

Kills a tad of the puzzle part, but seeing where you should jump, how far and where to hold a button or for how long gives you a solid idea of what to do (like demonstrations in challenge modes).

Of course, this kind of thing should have some cost...

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We seem to all be talking about how Lab Zero might structure a mode to make the platforming easier, but based on the prototype's platforming, I don't think that would really be necessary. While the difficulty of the platforming in the full game will of course vary, I don't think we necessarily need to worry about that part of the game needing some complicated system to make it all easier. In the prototype, the only very difficult platforming segments are to get to the secrets and I don't think that it would be necessary for those to be easier to find/access as they are entirely optional. There also won't be death pits and coming into contact with enemies doesn't instantly kill you like in a game like Mario which removes most of the possibility for death and frustration from a less skilled player.
 
KaboomKid said:
it wouldn't really help players that are just struggling to find the axe, or understanding where/how to axe-climb.

I dunno, I'm all for games being inclusive to more unfamiliar players with easier difficulty, but I really feel like these are things that, if you had real trouble with, it was due to a lack of patience, not skill or knowledge. I am not a fan of the "instant gratification" model games are going with nowadays - especially mobile. You press a single button and "Three Stars, Level Complete, 50,000 gold!". You gotta work for stuff, gotta try for stuff. Losing is FINE. In fact, it's better to lose sometimes because you LEARN from situations.

Honestly I know people joke about the whole "Super Guide" thing Nintendo does but I think it's best because it only shows up if the game thinks you truly need help with a section. Otherwise the game can still be streamlined and not give the impression that the player needs to learn how to press the "A" button (which I hate).

Getting stuck on a section in a game isn't a bad thing, it's part of the challenge of video games. That's where the fun comes from.
 
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Maybe a limited number of "help me /do it for me" functions can be used per level or something. That way it makes it so you have to try to do it your self but you'll get some help if you need it but you still need to learn cause you know you can't get help all the time.
 
Why's it need to be limited? If it was like Mike's suggestion of 'can go thru but don't get achievements' that seems like it'd be fine.

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Mike_Z said:
Pretty much nobody finds button holds without being explicitly told about them -It's already planned to be a [non-held] separate button
Now see y'all, that could be the kind of simple change that ends up helping a lot of people that were struggling with the Prototype. It ain't always about Easy Modes!

I did really enjoy the feel of axe-climbing though, but maybe that's because I had been imagining Button Holds since the WIP "VR" footage. It already sounds like the next playable build is going to feel a lot different, but thanks to the power of Button Config, it hopefully shouldn't be too tricky to adjust.

BTW, @Mike_Z what kind of ideas have you guys been looking at to help better represent the connection between Blocking and Iddhi Meter? From all of the playthroughs I've watched, that seems to be THE thing that everyone has trouble figuring out. Like, they notice Blocking drains Meter, but they usually don't pick up on how they NEED Meter to Block. So when the Blocking doesn't work, they tend to think it's an issue with their controller or something. It's already such a great mechanic, so hopefully more players are able to understand it better.
 
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Edit: I missed the quoted post was Mike's. So uh... no need for what I said, thought by you guys you meant us. (Also, I don't like deleting posts, hence the edit.)
 
@j-boogie cause if a player wants to play auto mode they wouldn't care about achievements anyway. Think that was said too. Limited because it gives the player incentive to grow with the character. Sometimes story elements in games are enhanced when the player struggles with the character.

Now that I think about it something better than just flat out giving a limited number of "auto mode functions" is hiding those AutoMode functions in the level ,as an item or something, so players who explore are rewarded by maybe being able to make another part of the level easier .
 
Tank said:
@j-boogie cause if a player wants to play auto mode they wouldn't care about achievements anyway. Think that was said too. Limited because it gives the player incentive to grow with the character. Sometimes story elements in games are enhanced when the player struggles with the character.

Now that I think about it something better than just flat out giving a limited number of "auto mode functions" is hiding those AutoMode functions in the level ,as an item or something, so players who explore are rewarded by maybe being able to make another part of the level easier .

And I'm asking why does it have to be limited or 'need to be found'. You can just make it an option that a person can choose.

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DukeMagus said:
Look, if you guys really, REALLY want to hold hands in the platforming parts, just make a "shadow mode" that you can activate and show how to go up a single part or challenge, but DOESN'T skip it.

I actually like this idea the most. With the spiritual themes, Ajna can just sit down and astral project , "Hm, how can i do this? Oh! I know!" *shows you how with a ghost ajna*
 
Kasumi said:
So uh... no need for what I said
Yeah, I was talking to Mike in that paragraph, but now I'm kinda curious what your thought was. Obviously you've had a lot of problem-solving to do yourself lately!
 
Tank said:
@j-boogie cause if a player wants to play auto mode they wouldn't care about achievements anyway. Think that was said too. Limited because it gives the player incentive to grow with the character. Sometimes story elements in games are enhanced when the player struggles with the character.

Now that I think about it something better than just flat out giving a limited number of "auto mode functions" is hiding those AutoMode functions in the level ,as an item or something, so players who explore are rewarded by maybe being able to make another part of the level easier .
That misses the point of a "story mode" like feature though. It isn't to make a gentler learning curve for beginners, it's for people interested in the world/story who don't necessarily care for the gameplay. If you hide this gameplay skip then the only people who will find it are the people who enjoy the gameplay and won't want to skip it while those who would want it will miss it as they rush to the next cutscene.
 
i actually like the "Hold button to axe cling" thing...

I mean, if you want to change it Mike that's fine, but really holding the button [to me atleast] feels so much heftier. Like you are actually burying that axe into the wall. Like "SLAM~!" right into that stone wall. So bad ass...
 
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Ninja said:
holding the button [to me atleast] feels so much heftier. Like you are actually burying that axe into the wall.
Yeah, that's how I felt about it too, but I can see how that type of input might not make sense for a lot of the other weapons. Like, attacking up close with the spear versus tossing into a wall, or attacking with the chain weapon versus using it as a grappling hook.

If those weapons would perhaps be better off with a second Action Button for their unique traits, then that logic might as well apply to the Axe too, y'know? Keeps things less confusing.
 
actually... I can see the hold button to use it for environmental things to be used as a universal input. Think about it... Hold the button so Ajna can throw a spear into the wall, where she has to wind up that throw so the spear can really sink in, or holding the button so Ajna can use the Chain to swing across something [ if nothing is in range Ajna will just spin the chain around like the cool kid she is]

Idk... it's Mike's game I trust he will make it still feel really good to do this platforming stuff.
 
@J-Boogie said:
And I'm asking why does it have to be limited or 'need to be found'. You can just make it an option that a person can choose.

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Having automode be limited/found makes the player actually play the game other wise they may as well go watch the play through on youtube in a week.

Lex said:
That misses the point of a "story mode" like feature though. It isn't to make a gentler learning curve for beginners, it's for people interested in the world/story who don't necessarily care for the gameplay. If you hide this gameplay skip then the only people who will find it are the people who enjoy the gameplay and won't want to skip it while those who would want it will miss it as they rush to the next cutscene.

sorry. hidden was a bad choice of words. The item should just be found in the level not hidden like a secret boss or anything but not just found by holding "right" the whole time. Even if a player is just in the game for the story, part of the story is the level they are playing so they would likely explore anyway.

Otherwise story mode could just be all the cut scenes with no gameplay beside press X to advance the story.
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I guess i'm coming from a point of view that the game should be played because you want to play for the story not because you are forced to play to get the story. Being able to just choose automode is like saying i don't want to play this game but i still want the story. Games people don't want to play usually don't get played very long or at least won't be played more than once after they get the story.
 
I see where you're coming from but here's the thing: you're not always going to make a person play a game they don't want to. And there's some people who are just poor at games for various reasons but still likes to to interact with them.

So I think it'd be better to allow these people to enjoy it personally in some way rather than just watch it in some other fashion.

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Ninja said:
actually... I can see the hold button to use it for environmental things to be used as a universal input.
Well we don't know exactly how the other weapons work yet. Maybe the Chain's Attack will have a Charge upgrade, kinda like you're describing, that would let you whack enemies from farther away. If the input is separate from the grappling hook, you could use an attack like that reliably in multiple places without worrying about your weapon getting stuck in the wall at weird angles and messing you up.

Arrows might work a similar way, like Link's arrows in Smash. Now, if Ajna's arrows had that cool Teleport-Arrow concept they've mentioned before, then that ability could be kept to a separate button, and you'd never have to worry about the game confusing your normal Arrow-Hold for a Teleporting one.

I mean, I'm a MM guy, so I'm cool with Button Holds all day, but since there are so many different move concepts on the table for this game, I can see how having that extra button for some stuff could remove a lot of the guess work for some players.
 
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