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Invocation: An amateur's idea for a game.

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Actually, my plan is to before doing ANYTING with the coding for Invocation, to screw around and make an engine or use an existing system to ceate a simple 2 button fighter with stick figures, for practice.

Thanks for being real and honest. I want my combo system to work, which is why I've been posting ideas. I need to do more research, but hopefully next time I post some of my working plans, I'll get some good criticisms. The more practice and research, the more I'll be prepared for it
 
North888 said:
When I said Blockstun, I meant that it increases the recovery frames on the attacker
That doesn't matter when chain combos allow you to cancel recovery into other attacks. It doesn't reward the defender, but moreso punishes the attacker for just attacking. If you're trying to make moves punishable through perfect timing like a parry, then it's a completely different matter, but the the risk/reward is so imbalanced to the point where there's no risk in trying to do it.
Before implementing your own spins on system mechanics, research what other games do with it.

First iteration of Just Defends:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Just_Defend_(Garou)

Just Defends vs Parries (CvS2)
http://sonichurricane.com/articles/cvs2pvsk.html

Melty Blood's take on EX guards (from mizumi wiki):
Will restore guard meter if successful, and will reduce blockstun by 2f (need confirmation on this). Will also increase your magic circuit gain and reduce opponent's magic circuit gain from the attack.

Guilty Gear tactics with Instant Block:
http://dustloop.com/guides/ggac/tech/ibo.html
 
I've been doing a ton of research and work recently. I haven't had time to actually work on my programming, but I have been working to establish some semblance of an art style. I have a few more characters and more refined idea of mechanics. A few interesting ideas I'd like to throw out as just those: ideas. I'm not posting anything just yet, but I may be back later with some rough designs drawn on lined paper during my school freetime. You'd be surprised how much inspiration boredom brings in class...

Things I've been researching:
-Meter scaling for BOTH players
-Damage output vs. Combo length
-Alternative mechanics to bursts
-General character archetypes such as grapplers and such. Specifically looking at more ambiguous examples of such important archetypes to get feel for the archetypes.

Current Progress:
-Working on numerous projects to improve skills, especially in programming
-Creating a beta Helma sprite to establish a style
-3 new character ideas and a fleshed out idea for Boss character Ninetails.

All this is work in progress stuff. Anything I post here later on will most likely just be me throwing ideas at the wall, seeing what sounds good and what works, trying to refine this some more. Currently, Helma is the only character I have fleshed out gameplay-wise, and her move list is diverse and her style balanced enough she could be tweaked to work in pretty much any 2D fighter. I'm hoping to flesh out at least 1 more character to her level to really exemplify what I'm trying to go for here.

After the next 'update' I will be updating the OP with current information and current speculations of mine. It's been almost 2 weeks of just straight work and life getting in the way of me getting anything productive done. Gotta curb that before I lose my motivation!
 
It's been more than a day, don't kill me for double posting! DX

Anyway, I've decided to split this 'update' into two parts. This first part will be me throwing out ideas and new character concepts, the second update will be an update to the background lore and actual 'plot' of the game. After the second update, I'll fix the OP.

As far as ideas and balancing go, here are some things I've learned and look to implement from a design perspective:
  • Focus should be on damage output per character. Saying that, there should usually be some combo consistency length-wise between characters, but their damage output should be the focus. How hard they hit and how much they take off at high level combos, depending on setup necessary will be the focus. Most high level combos should take about 40% of the opponent's bar off as well as set you up in an advantageous position for a reset or counter. At the longest combos, despite not being the most effective way of fighting, you can expect to take off 50-ish%, but won't gain you much meter and will feed into the opponent, reducing your advantage.
  • Combo system: With 4 buttons, all standing and crouching normals can cancel into each other at least once for the most part per character. Some can cancel into a normal twice if you combo correctly and some may not be able to combo into all their normals in any order, but for the most part it will be open.
  • Damage scaling will be high-ish. The more hits, the less damage per attack is done. The character and to an extent the attacks you use determine how hard the scaling is. This supports going for setups into Okizemes or resets as opposed to longer combos (which will be possible, but for the most part not very effective)
  • Meter scaling will be high. You'll be lucky to hit 100% during any match. Meter resets after each round. Only a few characters have utility specials and 'Ultimates' that cost 100% meter. Most specials are used for single, high damage attacks. There are ways to chain them to the end of a combo and get decent damage output for the move, however. I'll be detailing this later here. Most specials cost 50% meter.
  • Your opponent gains limited meter from combos. This is not scaled. Longer combos can actually net your opponent more meter, overall, than you. If you go crazy, you might give them more than you get back yourself. Risk vs. Reward.
  • Assist system will be removed. It was an intriguing idea, but it creates balance issues and doesn't really work that well with the other game's systems.
Now, this is fairly vague, but it's far more accurate from a gameplay perspective than what I've been saying before.
Anyway, as for new mechanics, I had an idea I'd like to throw out and see how others feel about it. It is a replacement for a burst-system I call Instant Flashes.

Instant Flash:
Similar to a burst, upon putting in the right buttons, the user cancels whatever animation they're in and creates a small blast radius around them. It also charge over time, similar to a burst. There are some big differences, however. Instant Flashes have a number of properties:
  • You must be in a hitstun, recovery, knockdown, or other state preventing action to use an Instant Flash. Recovery and startup from your own attacks, within a certain frame window (if the recovery takes more than about 20 frames, you can Instant Flash out of it) cannot be Instant Flashed out of. Cannot be used during grabs or other certain animations, both from your attacks and your opponent's.
  • The blast radius is about the same as in GG
  • Instant Flashes do NOT interupt attack animations or frames. They do interrupt recovery frames and, within a certain frame window (about the first 5-10 frame) they also interrupt startup animations, however. Obviously, neither of these apply when one attack is canceled into another as most startup and recovery frames are canceled out. Basically it doesn't interupt an attack unless they are winding down from the attack.
  • Cannot be used when being hit by a super or grab. However, it can be used immediately after a grab. For example, take Valentine's grab. You could use an Instant Flash after the animation is finshed and before the imminent followup (since you can't really cancel the recovery animation of the grab into your next attack, though the enemy is stunned long enough for you to follow up) to counter them.
  • While it charge back up over time, taking damage and using an Instant Combo (detailed below) will recover the gauge as well. It takes less time to charge up than the burst gauges in BB or GG for comparison (an exact time pending until I finish the base build). For the most part, you'll only get to use one, maybe two per round on occasion. It could TECHNICALLY be possible to use it 3 times, but this would be on very very rare occasions.
  • Instant Flashes come out instantly. They don't move you into the air like most bursts, however.
So with all that, just what do these Instant Flashes do? I'll tell you! Instant flashes create a burst radius around you. If the opponent is caught in it at the applicable time, it puts them in an extended hitstun state and pulls them towards you. You can CANCEL Instant Flashes into practically anything and create counter attacks called Instant Combos. There are a few rewards for pulling this off:
  • An Instant Combo rewards the player based on how much damage the combo dealt. At the end of the combo, whether it was dropped or finished, your Instant Flash gauge is refilled slightly based on how much damage you did in the combo.
  • Resets are not rewarded here, unlike in the rest of the game, so going for a longer combo here IS more effective. You get to put out that higher damage and get points back towards another Instant Flash, which allows you to immediately counter the end of the opponent's combo, their reset, grab, dropped combo, etc. Going for the longer combo in an Instant Combo state still rewards your opponent with the extra meter, however, so choose wisely if it is worth it.
  • Super attack scaling is reduced here during these combos. Going for longer combos and ending in a super, assuming you have the meter, rewards you with more damage than normal and that extra damage goes towards refilling the Instant Flash gauge. The scaling may still make it more worthwhile to go for a shorter Instant Combo ending in a Super to maximize damage and avoiding damage scaling.
Basically it's meant to be a counter system that discourages your opponent from resetting too often and using unsafe attacks. It encourages making sure you attacks confirm and resetting or ending combos with moves with little recovery or moves that put distance between you and your opponent. From the user side of things, it's still baitable and Instant Combos give use for the longer possible combo strings in the game. It gives you something to save your super for if you wish, but still gives the opponent meter back. It also takes long enough to charge, even with an effective Instant Combo, that you won't be able to make use of it too often that it becomes broken.

After all those, I have 3 new characters with their gameplay styles I'd like to put up. These are fairly indepth, but still liable to change. Descriptive enough to give you an idea of how play, but without any definitive information while I figure out how to balance them. Feel free to give your thoughts on them as well.

Gorgan Unit Prototype 2 - Unit 03: Codenamed "Cleopatra"
Short Bio:
A robot designed to work as a guard and a spy. The Gorgan Units are designed to look and feel like statues. With special bodies that can be coated in a number of synthetic 'skins' to mimic the feel of many different materials, they are given very unique shapes. The robots are shaped like statues. In the case of Cleopartra, the robot is in the design of a classical figure. A featureless woman with arms missing at the shoulders and legs cut off above the knee. The robot uses special magnetism inspired by Tiganizo's ability to use magnetism to float for a moment. The head and leg stumps detach from the core body and can fire lasers or be used more physically. Cleopatra is set to defend and spy on an important political figure who is believed to be a Sage, but he catches on to the scheme and flees. The robot statue pursues.
Gameplay style:
Cleopatra floats using magnetism and has weird, floaty controls. She has lasers in her eyes and in the base of the separated legs. These lasers are very weak, but good for hit confirming, even at full screen. She has a strong aerial game and is focused on using momentum to improve her attacks. She often flings parts of her body, especially her core torso, at the opponent to form combos. Due to her floating via magnetism, some of her attacks can be influenced by aerial momentum even on the ground. A simple character able to confirm from full screen and follow that up into a combo. She has many unsafe attacks, however, and her mixup game is weak. She has very few low attacks, but quite a few overheads. No airdash, instead, she has a hover jump. Upon a double jump, she will instead hover in place at that point in the air for a bit and can be moved left and right to position for attacks. Multiple charge-type inputs.

Sarria the Apprentice Magician
Short Bio:
Sarria is a young girl about 16. She grew up like many children identified with high magical abilities. That is, she grew up in an area designated and protected under the goverment. She's been moved about via caravaans all her life. One fateful day, a growing group of extremists attacked her escort. The military was able to quickly and easily push them back, but they managed to make off with two hostages. A young Sarria and an old man. As the extremist group prepared to do horrible, brutal things to the two, the old man revealed just how magically capable he was, destroying what was left of the extremists and saving the two. Unable to return to the escort, as it had moved on without them, the man and her began to work on their own. He taught her, over the course of many years, basic magic. Her master, however, was murdered by a mysterious electrical assailant one day, and now she's on a quest for revenge!
Gameplay Style:
She's a zoner. She has multiple (about 3) projectile types that have 3 versions each. Each level of the projectile has a different, unique movement path. She can chain these projectiles quite easily, but has an "exhaustion system." You can only chain her projectiles so many times before she tires out and goes into a special recovery animation. Over time, the exhaustion level goes down, so you need to switch off between throwing long projectile combos without maxing out her exhaustion, and holding the opponent back while your main offense readies itself. The best strategy is to poke and attempt to hit confirm with her normals or other mostly utility moves before launching into projectile combos, or throw out shorter combos for less damage in order to keep the exhaustion level low. Her projectiles are a fire ball (which has a quick, long range shot, a larger, slower, slightly shorter but more powerful shot that is harder to cancel out (like an EX fireball), and an anti-air fireball that flies in a fairly low arc), a magic dragon (that flies forward before u-turning back towards you (hits multiple times for low damage), zigzags high and low across the screen a short distance, and a large one that comes down the screen diagonally (basically diagonal Marie Skull Train)), and a lightning bolt (that strikes the opponent's locaton quickly for low damage as a mid attack, that strikes the area a bit in front of you after a short delay as an overhead, and a strong bolt that fires at near the edge of the screen. This last version has extra stun to it.). She has super versions of all 3 projectiles (which are on part in power to a Melty Blood EX special). Only one of each projectile type can be on screen at once and thus her sub-par normals and other moves are necessary to keep up combos between the projectiles you're firing. The exception to this is her supers, which cause all other projectiles by her on screen to vanish. They can be comboed off of, but the scaling from them makes this only really effective during Instant Combos.

Zamani, Treasure Hunter Extraordinaire!
Short Bio:
Zamani isn't her real name. She's from a wealthy family, but something happened that forced her to flee. She doesn't really talk about it, though. She runs a crew of treasure hunters on the seas, searching for long lost treasure buried by old pirates and hidden away by the countries many years ago. While out looking, she and her crew discover a secret about the Shuja corporation by accident, and are labeled by the world as pirates. Now hunted, she has to confront both this secret and her old past. She has a lot of spunk and energy, always looking out for a new lead and clue. She keeps her crew in line through respect, but is more than capable of geting rough when necessary. Her biggest weakness is collectables. She will often buy merchandise and memorabilia for popular shows or characters of the world, even if she doesn't necessarily know much about the character itself. Her captain's quarters is filled to the brim with a massive collection of figurines, toys, models, stuffed animals, posters, and even more crazy fan merchandise. She has some innate connection to dark magic that allows her to create mystal attacks based on objects in her possession. Wears a thick and massive pirate captain's coat with tons of pockets stuffed with bits and pieces of her collections which, through her innate dark magic, she can use to fight!
Gameplay Style:
She's a fun character. She'll pull out a little robot and it will fire a missile about as big as the robot. This missile travels slowly and is good for juggling. She wields a pirate sword and has good ranged and variable normals with some great mixups. She has a powerful ground game with some overhead normals and moves used to set up juggle opportunities on the ground. In the air, she has less options and almost no good jump ins or air specials. Her merchandise forms her specials, such as the robot (which comes in two variants: red for a slow rocket, and blue for a fast energy ball), a magical girl wand that turns into a giant hammer, a hat she uses for a special grab that electricutes the opponent, leaving them open for followups, and a few more. Her specials also follow this, as she pulls out a fake agent's badge from a popular cartoon and her coat and hat turns black, she gaining a pair of shades and a large energy rifle that allows her fire a powerful beam across the screen, or an ornate pirate pistol replica she fires that summons a line of cannons from the side of the screen that shell the area with cannonballs. There are obviously going to be a ton of references in her attacks, and she will be a more lighthearted character amidst the cast (since most have kinda cruddy backstories).

Again, the next update will be an official lore update to the backstory as well as idea of the game's 'plot' if it gets one. I will also go over the initial setup for the game's boss character, Ninetails (who may or may not have a playable version, haven't decided yet).
 
North888 said:
Most specials cost 50% meter.
Y-you mean supers, right? Special Moves specifically refer to hadoukens, shoryukens and such moves, not the shinkuu hadoukens of the world.
 
there should usually be some combo consistency length-wise between characters
Again, with the combo count....
Val can do a 30+ hit combo but is scaled to shit in the end. Her damage is mainly what hard hitting moves she can scrape together in the first 10 hits and then has to use all the multihitting moves possible to do 6.7k when all other characters beat 7k no problem. And even with the max damage scaling that's not completely going to deter Val players from long combos. Milking the kill is important. If Val isn't going to go for a reset or a kill, then there are snap backs or s.hk(x3) for the sliding knockdown into vial load into oki.

Combo consistency isn't necessary. Zangief's combos are ass and he relies mainly on spacing and using the fear of getting SPD'd or Ultra 2'd. Getting scooped or hit by his pokes are his "combos". At the same time Akuma/Evil Ryu has a high damage output with long-ish combos but the player has to work in not dropping those links.

Combo system: With 4 buttons, all standing and crouching normals can cancel into each other at least once for the most part per character. Some can cancel into a normal twice if you combo correctly and some may not be able to combo into all their normals in any order, but for the most part it will be open.
What? You talking about the magic series?
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Marvel_vs_Capcom_3/Systems/Attacking:_Chain_Combos_Magic_Series

Meter scaling will be high. You'll be lucky to hit 100% during any match.
The way you say it makes it sound like combos are the only way to build meter. Guilty Gear builds meter simply by attacking and by moving forward, encouraging offensive movement. Street Fighter 4 builds meter simply by doing anything (specials, combos, block strings, throws, blocking, focus attacks, focus absorbing). In 3rd strike you can build meter by whiffing normals. SG you gain meter through combos, doing specials, and whiffing normals when you have below 1 meter (as long as you aren't running away. upback j.hp isn't going to work in building meter).


Instant Flashes.

.....no. Instead of a "Get off me!" burst you're basically players giving an incentive to mash "super" when getting reset. Except in this case, the "super" you're giving the pressured player guarantees a full high damage combo from which the opponent cannot escape. In SG, players at least have to spend another meter in other to dhc and potentially keep the combo going (unless if you're fukua and mashed BFF super. But then if you mashed against a jump in it's gonna whiff and you're gonna die). Here you you only have to spend an external resource and there's no risk to it. The fact that the Instant flash can be canceled into anything = I can make it safe by canceling it into jab. Even worse, you can trigger it in hitstun. Which means if I get touched once and I see that gauge glowing, there is no reason not to use it. I will instantly get a full combo no matter what. And if it's in the late game, and both of us have it, then he can trigger his instant flash and I die for using a mechanic too early. And why would you even give the players the ability to burst during knockdown or recovery? There's ground teching and if they whiffed a big move they should get punished for it.

Basically it's meant to be a counter system that discourages your opponent from resetting too often and using unsafe attacks.
Screw you I'm gonna crossup IAD as much as I damn well please! Encouraging resets and installing a mechanic to discourage it is counter intuitive.
 
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Not to mention you don't want to discourage unsafe attacks. Everything is unsafe in a traditional 2d fighting game. Excepting maybe a full screen fire ball (and even than, if you have a beam super to counter it with) every single action you can perform on your opponent in a traditional 2d fighting game is psychic counterable. Encouraging you to not use unsafe attacks is impossible and not something you'd want to discourage anyway, since that lack of safety is at the heart of strategy, and why have a move if you're encouraged not to use it?

This actually reminds me of a design flaw in another game within a different genre. I'd like to encourage everyone here to go load up the Taito shmup Metal Black in mame and tell me why the game is considered a sub-par shmup despite its excellently dreamy atmosphere and gorgeous melancholy soundtrack. You should be able to figure it out by the end of stage 2 at least if you're good.

*hint: It has something to do with the properties of the beam special and your main weapon*


---

You know, I feel like we need a thread for amateur game designers who are currently working on engines/brainstorming ideas/etc. to exchange ideas and update progress together. Besides the shmup demo I'm working on in Unity, I also have 3 other game concepts for Unity demo's I'm bouncing around in my head, all of different genres. Would be neat to talk about em. Anybody interested?

*edit* oh also


Fedora_Ninja said:
The way you say it makes it sound like combos are the only way to build meter. Guilty Gear builds meter simply by attacking and by moving forward, encouraging offensive movement. Street Fighter 4 builds meter simply by doing anything (specials, combos, block strings, throws, blocking, focus attacks, focus absorbing). In 3rd strike you can build meter by whiffing normals. SG you gain meter through combos, doing specials, and whiffing normals when you have below 1 meter (as long as you aren't running away. upback j.hp isn't going to work in building meter).

Mvc2 Cyclops and Ruby Heart J.HK, ha ha ha.

Making spacing a good meter build ain't a bad idea. You could also have a charge stance like in some of snk's games.
 
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Armageddon11 said:
Y-you mean supers, right? Special Moves specifically refer to hadoukens, shoryukens and such moves, not the shinkuu hadoukens of the world.
Yes, I meant supers, typo on my part.
Fedora_Ninja said:
Again, with the combo count....
Val can do a 30+ hit combo but is scaled to shit in the end. Her damage is mainly what hard hitting moves she can scrape together in the first 10 hits and then has to use all the multihitting moves possible to do 6.7k when all other characters beat 7k no problem. And even with the max damage scaling that's not completely going to deter Val players from long combos. Milking the kill is important. If Val isn't going to go for a reset or a kill, then there are snap backs or s.hk(x3) for the sliding knockdown into vial load into oki.

Combo consistency isn't necessary. Zangief's combos are ass and he relies mainly on spacing and using the fear of getting SPD'd or Ultra 2'd. Getting scooped or hit by his pokes are his "combos". At the same time Akuma/Evil Ryu has a high damage output with long-ish combos but the player has to work in not dropping those links.
You mention multiple characters. I don't mean everyone has to have a 10+ hit combo of exact proportions, I meant that, for the most part, most characters, keyword MOST, should be able to pull off combos above a certain number of hits based on the system. I may have worded that badly, however. For the most part, there are defined combos for characters that go up to a consistent number of hits. You can see this a lot in games with auto-combos.

However, saying that, I must concede I should drop the idea of combo count. I should be focusing on damage output and HOW they get to that damage. Whether it be longish combos, preposterous setups, grapple chains, etc etc.


Fedora_Ninja said:
What? You talking about the magic series?
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Marvel_vs_Capcom_3/Systems/Attacking:_Chain_Combos_Magic_Series
That wasn't exactly what I meant. And I think perhaps the point of being able to chain most normals into each other isn't always going o be the most effective thing. The example of was thinking of is that in Under Night In-Birth, another 4 button fighter, most of the cast can do their standing and crouching normals into each other without any real restrictions. However, that game technically has 3 normals per standing, crouching, and jumping, meaning you'll be able to freely chain 6 normals at most before a launch and then 3 aerials for the most part. I'm thinking it'll have to be more like the Magic Series, or perhaps I'll set it up so that for the most part most normals chain into each other. I'll have to tinker with the pre-build I'm working on, see if that works. I'm thinking I'll probably have to go like the magic series, though.

Fedora_Ninja said:
The way you say it makes it sound like combos are the only way to build meter. Guilty Gear builds meter simply by attacking and by moving forward, encouraging offensive movement. Street Fighter 4 builds meter simply by doing anything (specials, combos, block strings, throws, blocking, focus attacks, focus absorbing). In 3rd strike you can build meter by whiffing normals. SG you gain meter through combos, doing specials, and whiffing normals when you have below 1 meter (as long as you aren't running away. upback j.hp isn't going to work in building meter).
Who said combos are the only way to build meter? I meant that during combos your opponent's meter gain is consistent so during a combo, if it is long enough, they may gain more meter than you. I plan on having meter be gained via using, including the whiffing of, moves in general, blocking said moves, getting hit, basically like in SF4. I don't think I'll have meter build during just forward movement, however. No, I plan on balancing it so you get meter through most actions. However, saying you won't get to 100% most matches is a bit of an exaggeration on my part. What I essentially mean is that you should be prepared to not rely on meter. Meter scaling will be high and you shouldn't be able to get supers out very often.

Fedora_Ninja said:
Instant Flashes.

.....no. Instead of a "Get off me!" burst you're basically players giving an incentive to mash "super" when getting reset. Except in this case, the "super" you're giving the pressured player guarantees a full high damage combo from which the opponent cannot escape. In SG, players at least have to spend another meter in other to dhc and potentially keep the combo going (unless if you're fukua and mashed BFF super. But then if you mashed against a jump in it's gonna whiff and you're gonna die). Here you you only have to spend an external resource and there's no risk to it. The fact that the Instant flash can be canceled into anything = I can make it safe by canceling it into jab. Even worse, you can trigger it in hitstun. Which means if I get touched once and I see that gauge glowing, there is no reason not to use it. I will instantly get a full combo no matter what. And if it's in the late game, and both of us have it, then he can trigger his instant flash and I die for using a mechanic too early. And why would you even give the players the ability to burst during knockdown or recovery? There's ground teching and if they whiffed a big move they should get punished for it.
I see the point. Again, it was a rough idea I had for a replacement for a Burst mechanic. The idea of an immediate counter to an opponent's combo or attack was appealing to me, but it obviously needs massive fine tuning to work. I agree that the opponent should get punished for screwing up, so if I do want to keep the idea, I'd have a lot of work to do making it fair. Any suggestions on how to improve it? Or should I just completely scrap it then? I have a few more ideas lined up, either way.

Fedora_Ninja said:
Screw you I'm gonna crossup IAD as much as I damn well please! Encouraging resets and installing a mechanic to discourage it is counter intuitive.
This is also true. I meant it as a system for the player to set up resets but not to set up super short resets or risk eating an Instant Flash and getting their reset turned against them. However, going back to your previous argument, this also makes sense. I've been thinking a lot about how to go about all this. I've been studying quite a few fighters and looking for a mechanic like burst that complements the fighting system, though perhaps I was trying to be too original with it. I'm sure there's a way to make Instant Flashes work, but yeh, it's currently redundant as is. Back to the drawing board for how to balance this. I personally feel that a burst system wouldn't be the most effective counter mechanic for this game's setup, so I've been looking for an alternative. However, I could be wrong in that and a simple burst system is all it really needs. The simple pre-build I'm working on now, which is anything but close to working, makes me question that idea as well...so I'll see how this goes and determine if a Burst System would be the best counter mechanic.

Squire Grooktook said:
Not to mention you don't want to discourage unsafe attacks. Everything is unsafe in a traditional 2d fighting game. Excepting maybe a full screen fire ball (and even than, if you have a beam super to counter it with) every single action you can perform on your opponent in a traditional 2d fighting game is psychic counterable. Encouraging you to not use unsafe attacks is impossible and not something you'd want to discourage anyway, since that lack of safety is at the heart of strategy, and why have a move if you're encouraged not to use it?

This actually reminds me of a design flaw in another game within a different genre. I'd like to encourage everyone here to go load up the Taito shmup Metal Black in mame and tell me why the game is considered a sub-par shmup despite its excellently dreamy atmosphere and gorgeous melancholy soundtrack. You should be able to figure it out by the end of stage 2 at least if you're good.

*hint: It has something to do with the properties of the beam special and your main weapon*
When I say unsafe, I mean attacks that leave you open wide-open. Attacks that are far less safe, say, on block, or are easy to react to. Generally moves that leave you wide open to immediate counter. But of course, your statement is also correct in that all moves leave you open, and anyone with enough skill can counter that and take advantage of it. As stated above the Instant Flash system has a large number of glaring flaws, and I mostly threw it out there to see what everyone thought and what to do with it. It wasn't an official thing by any means at all. It was an idea I ahd on the side I wanted opinions on, and from the sounds of it, it looks like it'll be best to keep it to the side.

Squire Grooktook said:
You know, I feel like we need a thread for amateur game designers who are currently working on engines/brainstorming ideas/etc. to exchange ideas and update progress together. Besides the shmup demo I'm working on in Unity, I also have 3 other game concepts for Unity demo's I'm bouncing around in my head, all of different genres. Would be neat to talk about em. Anybody interested?
I would be down for this. I greatly appreciate the feedback I've gotten here, and a whole thread for me to put an idea for something and see how it sounds would be great. It definitely would've been a better place to go with the whole Instant Flash idea, if it had existed.


Squire Grooktook said:
Mvc2 Cyclops and Ruby Heart J.HK, ha ha ha.

Making spacing a good meter build ain't a bad idea. You could also have a charge stance like in some of snk's games.
I've been thinking of using spacing to build meter. You slowly gain meter depending on distance from the opponent: there'd be a 'sweet spot' distance that would earn you the most meter, and this would be different per character depending on their playstyle. It'd reward you for keeping yourself where your character works best. I hadn't put much thought into it. Alternative ways to build meter is next on the list of things to research.

So in conclusion...No one has anything to say about the new character ideas, Instant Flashes seem to be a bad idea overall and I should go back to the drawing board with that. That's fine.
Next update will probably be tomarrow.
 
North888 said:
You can see this a lot in games with auto-combos.
Autocombos... isn't it just Persona and UMVC3's simple mode that do auto combos and the more optimal combos are done manually?

North888 said:
that game technically has 3 normals per standing, crouching, and jumping, meaning you'll be able to freely chain 6 normals at most before a launch and then 3 aerials for the most part.
That's still the zig zag magic series.

North888 said:
What I essentially mean is that you should be prepared to not rely on meter.
No player ever should rely on meter, but if it's there, spend it when the opportunity presents itself. You can't predict the amount of meter players will built/spend in one round cuz of the amount of different play styles. Spamming the shit out of fireballs, whiffing specials after scoring a knockdown, whiffing specials fullscreen away, continuously poking with specials safe on block.... there's a bunch of strategies to build meter in a match. The most you can do is assign appropriate meter build values per action and meter scaling.

North888 said:
Any suggestions on how to improve it? Or should I just completely scrap it then?
I say completely scrap it. Right now you're trying too hard on inventing a hot, new edgy mechanic when you haven't even got the fundamentals fleshed out. If your game's foundation isn't even solid, then there's no point on building on top of it. If you look at SG, SF4, and Yatagarasu, none of these games include anything new. SF4's focus attack mechanic may look like it's the "new thing," but all they did was give every character a universally armored move that crumple stuns when charged.

SG's unique thing was the infinite prevention system and drama. However, IPS doesn't mean anything to players who know how to get around it. Drama's implementation was inspired by Marvel 2 undizzies, and exists simply to prevent TOD combos and encourage resets. Everything else of SG takes inspiration from MvC2, 3s, Darkstalkers, Guilty Gear, and a bunch of other games.

Yatagarasu is heavily inspired by 3s and doesn't even try to hide it. It's just that it's made by former KOF devs, so it uses KOF control schemes in addition to assigning parry commands to 2 different buttons. It does have a new interactive commentator thing where known fighting game players will comment on how you got hit, you're running away, you have good defense or whatever, but it's completely unnecessary and optional. It's just extra flavor to an already good meal.

Case in point, you don't have to do anything new. If you want bursts, pushblocks, air dashes, and parries, just throw in bursts, pushblocks, air dashes and parries. No one's gonna sue you over it. Just make sure the overall package is fun and feels balanced.
 
Fedora_Ninja said:
Great points
I use autocombos as an example. I never really used them after I got good at those games.

That also counts as Zig Zag Magic series? Ok then, so that is what I was going for. Well good to know there's something I missed when looking up stuff >_> I was never really into UMvC enough on a competitive level to understand all it's mechanics when it was still a big thing (even though it's still quite popular now).

Course no one should rely on meter. When I talk about meter scaling and the limited meter you get, it makes you use the character. Meter here exists to give you massive damage should you know how to use. Of course, that said, despite meter being something to not rely on, it's very important to have the fundamentals of its balancing down.

As far as mechanics...I like Instant Flashes, it was an interesting idea from my perspective. BUT, you're right. I don't plan for parries, so instead I'll go simple. Do what's been just and do it well. I think it'd be best to go back to what I had planned before (what the system I'm currently slowly working on), which was a simple burst system with a pushblock system.

I did have an idea, and this is what turned into Instant Flashes, that a player could use their burst to instead stun the opponent if used outside a combo, and then it'd basically do an Instant Combo, but it felt too outta place, so I came up with Instant Flashes. Obviously I'm not going to plan on implementing that, though. I always thought there should be a way to recover your burst faster, so I might make it so you gain a bit (and we're talking really small here) of the burst gauge back with every hit you take. (obviously it'd still be basically one burst per round, but you might be able to get the second burst earlier in the second match if things are going badly and you're getting pummeled). I might also not, though.
 
There's too much emphasis on combos in all your posts about your game. Learn more about the neutral of fighting games and try to think of that. If you need help understanding that, there's this footsies manual http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Overall, whenever I see you post some new mechanic it's almost always related to combos and how once a beginner gets trapped in a combo they can't get out so they need some sort of crutch to get out. I don't mean to sound like a dick but once you actually play a fighting game for a long time you start finding solutions to problems like that that aren't just "Mash out super/ultra/burst/whatever reversal the game gives you". You need to give your player the benefit of the doubt as far as those sort of situations go. Think about how your combo structure is as far as damage goes, think about how knockdowns would work and how characters get to set up oki traps, then think that whether putting a burst in would be necessary if otherwise the game would become incredibly one-player-y (knockdown into setplay into knockdown into setplay into...).

PS: Mindlessly slapping mechanics on is not always the best solution to everything. Once your characters get fleshed out in terms of mechanics and people can actually play them, then you can get some real feedback about how necessary having a comeback factor like your Instant Combo is (and by the sounds of everything I don't really think so).
 
Huh....You're completely right. I've been trying to create a map so to speak, so that when I have some idea of what I want it all to feel like when I'm able to get to programming it (again, it's a pre-build state, so I have very little programming done towards it). I'll go forward attempting to balance this with having a burst system in mind. Anything else, push blocking, parrying, etc will be taken into account as possibilities for when the game is actually playable. I'll keep that in mind. I know quite a bit about the neutral of fighting games, but in the design aspect of it, I kept drifting to how to react to combos instead of thinking of other tools outside of new mechanics to get out of that or prevent said situations. Thanks for pointing it out...Lot's of new stuff to try out and work with...
 
I love that Sonic Hurrican guide. It's really great.

Also since no one gave my Metal Black quiz a shot:
The game is fucked because you're penalized for using the games main weapon mechanic.

The main idea of the game is that you get a giant laser beam weapon that can be powered up by collecting little particles that are constantly floating through the air.

The problem is, the effectiveness of your normal gun is linked to your beam, so if you use it you'll be reduced to a pea shooter until you can collect enough particles to fill the guage again. It goes without saying that said pea shooter is pathetic and will usually get you killed. Hell, even when fully powered up it fills a tad too weak.

Factor in that the beam guage takes way too long to fill up, that the beam itself doesn't give you invincibility frames, and that the beam always fully consumes your guage and can't be used for short bursts, and you have a game that penalizes you for using the thing that's supposed to make it unique. The only time it's really a good idea to use the beam is when finishing off bosses.

The are other issues with the game too. Your ship moves a bit too slow, and a common complaint is that too many enemies come from behind you in a game where you have no way of covering your back. Overall it's a not terribly polished game on top of a poorly thought out/executed mechanic.

Compare the way bombs/"WEAPON" works in Raizing's "Battle" shmup trilogy, where a similar large number of pick ups allow you to build up a guage for your special attack, but it does not depower your main weapon when used and can be used rapidly by collecting more items > expending small amount of guage > collecting more items > expending small amount of guage > etc.

The more you know...
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I love that Sonic Hurrican guide. It's really great.

Also since no one gave my Metal Black quiz a shot:
The game is fucked because you're penalized for using the games main weapon mechanic.

The main idea of the game is that you get a giant laser beam weapon that can be powered up by collecting little particles that are constantly floating through the air.

The problem is, the effectiveness of your normal gun is linked to your beam, so if you use it you'll be reduced to a pea shooter until you can collect enough particles to fill the guage again.

Factor in that the beam guage takes way too long to fill up, that the beam itself doesn't give you invincibility frames or all that much damage, and that the beam always fully consumes your guage and can't be used for short bursts, and you have a game that penalizes you for using the thing that's supposed to make it unique. The only time it's really a good idea to use the beam is when finishing off bosses.

The are other issues with the game too. Your ship moves a bit too slow, and a common complaint is that too many enemies come from behind you in a game where you have no way of covering your back. Overall it's a not terribly polished game on top of a poorly thought out/executed mechanic.

Compare the way bombs/"WEAPON" works in Raizing's "Battle" shmup trilogy, where a similar large number of pick ups allow you to build up a guage for your special attack, but it does not depower your main weapon when used and can be used rapidly by collecting more items > expending small amount of guage > collecting more items > expending small amount of guage > etc.

The more you know...
Yeah, I can definately see how that coorelates to what I was thinking of... *sigh* every time I think I finally have smart, it never quite is, is it? Ah well, back to the drawing board.
 
Well I was more just reminded of that thanks to that comment about "discourage people from doing unsafe things". IMO you want people to be taking risks ;)
 
Hah. yeah. I'm quickly learning how wrong many of my misconseptions about fighters were. Now I'm more to the point "What do I have that actual works? And what needs to refined?"
 
BTW I really recommend reading that Footsies handbook that was posted by Yomabudd (Sonic Hurricane). It's a must read for all players. Pretty much all of it and every chapter too.
 
Already bookmarked and top of my list.
 
Also it isn't you as the game designer who discourages risky play. If that were true, dps would be safe on block. Instead it is the other player's skill that punishes and discourages unsafe play. Truth of fighting games: the developer doesn't know shit about how his/her game is going to evolve a year later on. In one year we can find glitches, infinite combos, optimized damage and meter gain beyond intention, and determine a tier list when the developer initially thought everything was fair.

edit: here's some older stuff where Mike talks fighting games/game development

 
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Fedora_Ninja said:
Also it isn't you as the game designer who discourages risky play. If that were true, dps would be safe on block. Instead it is the other player's skill that punishes and discourages unsafe play.

Not sure I totally agree with this. I mean its a bit of semantics and I get what you're trying to say, but it is the developers job to realize that making dp's safe would be totally stupid and make the game unplayable. It's also the developers job to decide and balance how safe/unsafe things should theoretically be. Otherwise frame data and things like that would go out the window.

Yeah the game (usually) evolves beyond what the developer intended, but that doesn't mean you go into it without a specific idea on playstyle or certain design fundamentals.
 
Yeah...I was supposed to have a lore update and update the OP and characters with corrected gameplay and stuff awhile ago. Sometimes life has a way with hitting you with steamrollers, Za Warudo style! I'll ge the actual thing out and update the OP when I can.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
it is the developers job to realize that making dp's safe would be totally stupid and make the game unplayable.
DP FADC in SF4 was completely safe (plus in some cases) until Ultra.

Squire Grooktook said:
Not to mention you don't want to discourage unsafe attacks. Everything is unsafe in a traditional 2d fighting game.
Generally light attacks are not unsafe on block in most 2D fighters anyone considers "good". Projectiles from certain distances are usually safe. Moves or blockstrings that push the opponent back too far to punish are safe. Various normals are safe unless punished by prediction/doing something first, like Instant Blocking or a red parry. Hsien-ko's s.RH in VSav is completely safe, and it's a RH.
Nearly everyone has some way to make a chain ender safe in SG.
Etc.

North888 said:
They do interrupt recovery frames and, within a certain frame window (about the first 5-10 frame) they also interrupt startup animations, however. Obviously, neither of these apply when one attack is canceled into another as most startup and recovery frames are canceled out.
When you chain or special cancel, you do not remove any startup from the next attack, you only cancel the recovery of the previous attack.

Also FWIW I know everyone is jumping on Instant Flash as a bad idea, so I'm only going to say these things:
1 - They are not bursts, or even burst-alikes. They do not give you the same functionality as bursts, so if you are aiming for a kinda-similar defensive mechanic you missed.
2 - If they don't have any startup they are virtually guaranteed to land, which means attacking someone who has a full Flash is asking to be countered immediately.
3 - If it can't be done outside hitstun, you can mash the input for it whenever you think the opponent is going to hit you and get a full combo punish...?
4 - If it beats the recovery of any move you can just wait until the end of the opponent's combo and hit them for free, rather than attempting to do it in the middle...?
5 - What actually HAPPENS if they interact with active frames? Does it not come out or does it whiff or what?
6 - Do active frames still count as active for Flash purposes after they've hit you? For example, slides like Filia's or M.Bison's have many active frames, but if you make contact with the first one it is no longer "active".

Overall, again, and still, you need to think more about how people that KNOW how to play the game are going to use a mechanic rather than how beginners are going to use it.
 
Mike_Z said:
Generally light attacks are not unsafe on block in most 2D fighters anyone considers "good". Projectiles from certain distances are usually safe. Moves or blockstrings that push the opponent back too far to punish are safe. Various normals are safe unless punished by prediction/doing something first, like Instant Blocking or a red parry. Hsien-ko's s.RH in VSav is completely safe, and it's a RH.
Nearly everyone has some way to make a chain ender safe in SG.
Etc.

Errr, I might want to clarify what I meant. Safe on block yes, but not safe in general. A jab isn't safe from a psychic invincible dp, nor is it safe from someone doing their own jab a few frames earlier to stuff it, or from someone having baited the jab only to sweep it from out of range, or from someone blocking and calling an aaa assist (this one depends), etc. etc. The long range fire ball might be safe, but can be disadvantageous if read correctly and is totally vulnerable to a hard punish if someone has a beam super or whatever.

More what I meant is that there's really no 100% safe strategy or playstyle in any fighter I've ever played, where you can just rely on reflexes and never be punished if your opponent reads you. With few exceptions, like the full screen fire ball example, almost every kind of offensive or defensive measure has some kind of psychic hard counter. wiffs, stuffs, dp's, blocking, throws, etc.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Errr, I might want to clarify what I meant. Safe on block yes, but not safe in general. A jab isn't safe from a psychic invincible dp, nor is it safe from someone jabbing a few frames earlier, or from someone having baited the jab only to sweep it from out of range, etc. etc.
That's not the accepted definition of "safe" though, and if you go by that definition then only Ivan Ooze has anything safe in any fighting game ever made. :^P
 
"Safe" implies your move connecting or at least whiffing in some cases, or the situation being successful. You can safe-jump (implies a knockdown), etc.
NOTHING is safe from a pre-emptive psychic DP/fully invincible super before your situation starts, that makes no sense as a concept.
 
Mike_Z said:
NOTHING is safe from a pre-emptive psychic DP/fully invincible super before your situation starts, that makes no sense as a concept.

Well there's blocking lol. But yeah, I concede your point. Safe-jump example is good enough proof for me.
 
Mike_Z said:
DP FADC in SF4 was completely safe (plus in some cases) until Ultra.

Off topic I know, but although it is punishable now (-5), it's still way harder than it ought to be and players still don't punish it properly. You can also just backdash and be completely safe (unless you're fighting someone with a super fast, far moving Super like Chun Li) now, which means that DPs are still basically safe, you just don't get free pressure/a mixup when you're opponent blocks them. Still totally non committal and it's horseshit, but it's better than "auto pilot DP FADC, get huge damage if it hits, be safe if it's blocked".

Having a mechanic that makes special moves that would normally be MASSIVELY punishable safe is bad. If you have a mechanic that does that, DPs are basically non committal if you have the resources to make them safe, eliminating the "read" part of reversals. If you're hellbent on having that mechanic, just please don't give the person who did the DP and had it blocked pressure like SF4 did until Ultra.

edit: At OP, Instant Flash sounds very convoluted. I like how you're going for more basic, streamlined mechanics for your first fighting game (like eliminating the assist system), so I would say not to include it. I've been playing fighting games for years, I read the description of it and I still have no idea how it actually works or what it accomplishes that a basic burst system wouldn't.
 
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Yeah, I'm scrapping the Instant Flash idea. It was just an idea I had that I wanted to throw out to see how it faired. It obviously isn't a very good or at least well thought out. If I wanted to use it, I'd have to overhaul the system quite a lot.

To answer a few questions:
-If used during an attack, it passes through with no effect. If hit during the burst, however, it is canceled and doesn't come out.
-This applies to active frames. The slide would not be canceled. It doesn't count as a hit unless the opponent is in recovery frames. Again, I'd need to overhaul it quite a bit.

In general, I'm just gonna go with bursts. It's simpler, generally useful, and an effective system.
 
I know this is kind of late in the conversation but, I wouldn't even recommend going for designing a fighting game for your first go at game development even if it is an amateur attempt. Try something a little smaller in scale like a mobile puzzle game. Gaining experience is key. You don't want to have a really ambitious project become a train wreck. However, don't scrap your ideas completely. You can always go back to see if your ideas withstood the test of time. Maybe with some experience under your belt you'll have a new perspective on how to implement your original ideas. Having the mind of an animator (3D or otherwise) and/or programmer helps with that as well.
 
Cas Chronon said:
I know this is kind of late in the conversation but, I wouldn't even recommend going for designing a fighting game for your first go at game development even if it is an amateur attempt. Try something a little smaller in scale like a mobile puzzle game. Gaining experience is key. You don't want to have a really ambitious project become a train wreck. However, don't scrap your ideas completely. You can always go back to see if your ideas withstood the test of time. Maybe with some experience under your belt you'll have a new perspective on how to implement your original ideas. Having the mind of an animator (3D or otherwise) and/or programmer helps with that as well.
Yes, this has been told to me many times. Currently, as I have myself stated many times, am keeping this project up to date as a GOAL. I am working on other things to gain experience, but at the same time, improving my own knowledge and skill at fighting games. So I come back here consistently to update my knowledge and throw out ideas for this project. The front page even has, in giant text, an update saying the project is on haitus. Please don't assume I'm still jumping into this without attempting to gain any sort of experience. I just love this world I've made, and want to expand on it and improve y ideas as I go.
 
Cas Chronon said:
I know this is kind of late in the conversation but, I wouldn't even recommend going for designing a fighting game for your first go at game development even if it is an amateur attempt. Try something a little smaller in scale like a mobile puzzle game.

Or you could just start making characters in mugen. Nobody is really thinking of commercial development yet as far as I can tell.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Or you could just start making characters in mugen. Nobody is really thinking of commercial development yet as far as I can tell.
This was the plan. After delving into everything, Mugen seems the safest and easiest way of handling this. If I ever want to make this a major thing outside of a pet project, I'd have to invest much more time than I have.

Also rejoice, for he front page hath been updated! There is more to update to keep up with the updated lore, but it is much and I am tired, plus this is more gameplay focused, so I will post such lore updates as they come.
 
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MUGEN has a very low learning curve. You could start developing some characters in it, play around with your ideas and see how they fare in action, and see where you should go with it from there. You could even finish it in MUGEN if you don't plan on making money from it
 
Birdo! said:
MUGEN has a very low learning curve. You could start developing some characters in it, play around with your ideas and see how they fare in action, and see where you should go with it from there. You could even finish it in MUGEN if you don't plan on making money from it
This has more or less become the plan as of right now. I'm working on my actual spriting skills unless I can find someone locally to me that can do the animation, which is unlikely. Once I finish the base sprites for at least the normals, I plan on putting at least 1 character, which would be Helma, into MUGEN and messing with it to create the system I want. It's all very time consuming when you're on a college budget and schedule.
 
*waves nervously*
Hello everyone! Well...I won't get in the way of North's work, or the discussion, but I'm the composer for the game North wants to make. =D
In any case, from the looks of it, the only stuff he's really linked is that one song...which I'm sure I updated, and thus the link won't be working. 0_o;
So...here's a simple link to my Soundcloud profile, and everything will be there. I won't make any music update posts (I'll leave that to North to decide which songs are actually worthy of being known XD), but if anyone here happens to be a fighting game music creator/generator/maker/enthusiast, I'm open for criticism. I guess you can put comments here, or even better, put them on the specific song on Soundcloud, and I'll most certainly see it. ^_^

Take care, now! *tips imaginary top hat*
https://soundcloud.com/xscalibur64
 
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Ok, so minor things. Been screwing around in Mugen in general, learning how to use it. Haven't started actually implementing any characters or retailoring yet, but I'm getting there. A couple overhauls on my part for some moveset ideas and such, but basically I'm beginning to work my way into actually programing this...or whatever you call reskinning Mugen as a completely new game :/

Anyways, I have a new movelist for Helma as well as a moveset for Zamani, who actually turned out quite a bit differently than I originally thought. She's become more of a mid range zoner :/ So those are the two I'll be focusing on. I may post said move lists later if I feel it is worth mentioning, but really not much progress after all this time.

What I need right now, is help. I've gotten to the point where I wish to start creating the sprites, if even for just testing stuff and getting an idea of the art style I want. Now obviously they aren't going to be SG levels of quality, but I'm at a bit of a loss for how to do this. I have stuff to do sprites...but should I be using a specific program to animate? Should I make them pixely or hand drawn like some f the game's inspirations? My art tablet broke along with a number of the current sketches of characters, leaving me mostly with fairly poor doodles done during class :(

I've basically hit a wall and don't quite know how to proceed around this...If anyone knows anything that can help with this, I'd be much appreciated.

EDIT: Oh, also, I'm no music master, so any suggestions for Xcal on improving the music on te soundcloud he posted above htis post would be appreciated. Sometime tomarrow when I'm not half dead I'll update the OP with the link to it and maybe some other minor stuff.
 
North888 said:
but basically I'm beginning to work my way into actually programing this...or whatever you call reskinning Mugen as a completely new game :/

Scripting? Technically it's programming so you could call it that and not be wrong as far as I know.

North888 said:
What I need right now, is help. I've gotten to the point where I wish to start creating the sprites, if even for just testing stuff and getting an idea of the art style I want. Now obviously they aren't going to be SG levels of quality, but I'm at a bit of a loss for how to do this. I have stuff to do sprites...but should I be using a specific program to animate? Should I make them pixely or hand drawn like some f the game's inspirations? My art tablet broke along with a number of the current sketches of characters, leaving me mostly with fairly poor doodles done during class :(

My personal recommendation would be to grab some ripped sprite sheets from an existing fighting game and use them as placeholders for the time being. You might be a bit averse to that, but learning to draw or hiring an artist (who don't come cheep, as far as I know, especially for something as intricate as sprite work) will grind you to a halt for a long time (possibly forever).

Just pick out a character from an existing fighting game who's moveset is vaguely similar to what you have planned, and you can tweak timings and whatnot or mix and match animations to create your own move set based on what you want. Alternatively, you could try animating some tweened stick figures in flash or something and converting that to a sprite sheet, I dunno.

Get something up and running you can play with or have friends test, and when it starts to really come along, maybe then you can start working on finding an artist.
 
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It's like 2:30am and I'm tired XD
But yeah, ripping sprites might just work. I've been thinking up an art style fr awhile now and haven't made any progress...and I don't know anyone locally who could do the spriting. It's a shame, but the characters themselves I guess I need to save for later, and for now just work with what I got. Hmm....Actually I mentioned Zamani earlier, but I could possibly rip some Cerebella sprites to use for her (considering she has a few moves that are essentially direct shout-outs to Cerebella XD). Need to find someone for Helma though. A-anyways research time!....will come tomorrow!

As far as friends testing....nah, my friends aren't big fans of fighters at all. DX But thanks for the suggestions. Now I just need to get X off his butt so he can actually finish more than just Infiltration >_>
 
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