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Level 5 Super as a game changer: how often?

When I used to play as her in the vanilla, i would always ignore it i figured Checkmate incision was better for my style of keeping the opponent away while charging poisons
 
how often? Almost never. I think it's been used against me like... 2 times
Val is always used on point because her assists are ass, So it's gonna be really rare.
I still need to get that achievement :/
 
In a tournament setting I had it happen to me once in vanilla and I was just like "yes look at all that meter they just wasted"

Haven't seen it since.
 
It is never a game changer. Her level 1 supers are too good for you to hold onto 5 bars for long enough to use it. Meter is the only reason she can combo from her air grab. Not to mention there is a high chance val will be the first character to die.
 
Level 5 Super comebacks almost never happen, but like any unorthodox strategy in a fighting game, they are fun as heck to watch.
 
When I use to play as her back in the day I only got to use it twice in an actually fight, but after I started fighting better people I wasn't even thinking about using it.
 
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I've only used it just for fun and that was because I was getting my shit kicked in and actually had 5 meters stored up.
 
I used to save up for it and use it simply because you never saw it. If I was playing seriously, I doubt I'd ever use it.
 

I remember one time I was about to be timed out by a Peacock when I noticed I was standing near a body while having 5 meters. Right before the timer hit zero, I revived the body which gave me the life advantage to win the time-out.
 
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RemiKz said:
I remember one time I was about to be timed out by a Peacock when I noticed I was standing near a body while having 5 meters. Right before the timer hit zero, I revived the body which gave me the life advantage to win the time-out.
I like that. Especially if they're deliberately playing for the win on time.

I can see the ragemail already.
 
GirlyStyle said:
5 air scalpels > one lvl 5
Just to point it out, 5 unscaled air scalpels is about 6k dmg. A revive super is 4k dmg + 4k revive, so the total life swing is bigger. You can combo into it, as well, which a lot of Valentines ignore, plus it can give you back your (assumedly chosen to work with Valentine) assist.
It may not be something you save up for, but if you find yourself with 4+ bars you would be shooting yourself in the foot to ignore it. Then again, the SG community at large is still at the "mashing reversal super is a good tactic" stage.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Just to point it out, 5 unscaled air scalpels is about 6k dmg. A revive super is 4k dmg + 4k revive, so the total life swing is bigger. You can combo into it, as well, which a lot of Valentines ignore, plus it can give you back your (assumedly chosen to work with Valentine) assist.
It may not be something you save up for, but if you find yourself with 4+ bars you would be shooting yourself in the foot to ignore it. Then again, the SG community at large is still at the "mashing reversal super is a good tactic" stage.

for sure! i meant more as the bar comes to you; there is probably more basic utility and opportunity you get out of the bar as you achieve it by using something as awesome as air scalpel then a player would saving up for level 5; but that doesn't rob level 5 of its use if you happen to fall into that situation.

Then again, the SG community at large is still at the "mashing reversal super is a good tactic" stage.

thankyouthankyouthankyoutha...
 
I've only tried to do Val's lvl 5 once. I got excited that I got the hit, was in the right position for revival, aaaaaaaand did the wrong quarter circle. Got snap out instead and eventually died.
 
It probably boils down to the point of either reviving an assist and burning all your meter, or retaining it for air scalpels.

I'd personally go for the revive for getting back pressure options, but I'm terrible at the game anyway :V
 
Mike_Z said:
Just to point it out, 5 unscaled air scalpels is about 6k dmg. A revive super is 4k dmg + 4k revive, so the total life swing is bigger. You can combo into it, as well, which a lot of Valentines ignore, plus it can give you back your (assumedly chosen to work with Valentine) assist.
It may not be something you save up for, but if you find yourself with 4+ bars you would be shooting yourself in the foot to ignore it. Then again, the SG community at large is still at the "mashing reversal super is a good tactic" stage.


The total damage seems irrelevant, and mashing super gets pretty good mileage so why change the meta against people who don't have whiff/block set ups? The point is that if you are in a shitty position wih a dead character and have 5 bars you probably could have used that meter more effectively and never even get into that situation.

Is it a valid comeback mechanic? Yes. Does it fit with how she is played or is it supported by her strengths? I don't believe so. The only design synergy I see is that she has it because she is a nurse.
 
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It saved me 3 matches, or so, some time ago. :P I ended finishing my opponent with the revived character and barely any health.
 
May Captain Obvious grant me strenght and no one bashes me for stating what people already know.

Summarizing: Val's Level 5 blockbuster IS useful, but it is an non-standard special. People neither plan on nor have enough confidence on using it. Most of the time you'll just be following your flowchart and getting decent damage out of lvl 1 supers and (the most importand part), knowing how to follow it, since you're used to how it works. You position yourself faster and your mind is ready to process the rest of the match faster.

Even if Level 5 revived other characters with 50% life, you'd still have to play differently than most val players, playing more defensively and not using key tools like scalpels and DHCs for safe switching (in a 3-char team, i mean). Add to that the inevitable "now what do i do?/let's see what happens" split second your brain will freeze because you're not used to this blockbuster's properties and it makes pretty hard for someone to actually think about revival "traps" as a main tactic/objective.

Then again, there's always a pioneer using a character in a completely original way, or just adding a personal touch to the standard flowchart to gent an unexpected advantage (Like KaneBlueriver's team in Marvel)


What i rarely see is the Moai special. Can't say anything solid about this one (stating the pressure it may cause doesn't help and i don't remember if it causes chip damage)
 
Level 5 is good if Val is your last character for whatever reason (snapped out, raw tagged in, etc). Going from solo Val to duo Val when the match is nearly over (assuming that the opponent is down to his last man too) is huge. But I don't think it's something you aim for from the outset.

Double level 5 is crazy (crazy chip, lock-down hell if you don't have a way to knock her out of it) but pretty much only used in the same scenario.

Here's a question though, what happens if you're anchor Val on a trio and you revive over the piled corpses of your teammates?
 
Wow, this is really blowing up, huh? lol

But yeah, it's only something to consider if you're in the right situation for it. In the few instances where my Val is coming in with 4 meters, I immediately start to form a plan to stay near the dead body and I try to find a way to combo into it or to get the opponent to stay nearby so I can do it. I'll gladly forgo damage or the threat of putting myself at additional risks later on if it means I can get another shot with my assist back.
 
Mike_Z said:
Just to point it out, 5 unscaled air scalpels is about 6k dmg. A revive super is 4k dmg + 4k revive, so the total life swing is bigger. You can combo into it, as well, which a lot of Valentines ignore, plus it can give you back your (assumedly chosen to work with Valentine) assist.
It may not be something you save up for, but if you find yourself with 4+ bars you would be shooting yourself in the foot to ignore it. Then again, the SG community at large is still at the "mashing reversal super is a good tactic" stage.

The thing is, it has nothing to do with how much damage 5 air scalpels does. The utility of 5 scalpel supers usually outweighs the benefit and chance you get to use lvl 5. They let you use 236K > Scalpel to get in if the opponent blocks and starts a combo if they don't, you can use it as a reversal, and it let's you combo off airthrows.

Not to say lvl 5 doesn't have its uses. Heck, my last post gave 2 examples where it was used to win a match. The problem with valentine is that she has so many uses for her Scalpel super, that she doesn't really get the chance to properly use her lvl 5. Another reason for the lack of use is that Valentine is usually set as the point character because she doesn't have very good assists or DHC options, so she isn't in a position where she usually has a lot of excess meter or even has a body to revive.
 
View619 said:
Here's a question though, what happens if you're anchor Val on a trio and you revive over the piled corpses of your teammates?

I believe you can choose which one you want to revive by doing 214+MP+MK for assist 1 and 214+HP+HK for assist 2.
 
The myth tht bypass+scalpels is a good thing needs to be killed right now. Unless you are making a read on them pushing a full screen button (one that wont beat out the bypass, they can block and go in for an air grab. Then you are forced to tech and congrats you are back in neutral with one less bar.

It's only good for making people not press bad buttons at mid and full screen. Other than that it's actually mediocre. Better to use ground scalpels against peacock for the screen clearing, that's for sure. The only reason people think it's good is because they're bad.
 
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Using ground scalpels against peacock will almost always get you punished unless you do it like right in front of her when she is already pressing a button. Bypass > scalpel has positives as it is fast enough to catch people off guard and is safe. 1 meter is fairly cheap to throw around as a safe combo starter attempt.
 
A good peacock will stuff a bypass before you even get to her, you have no invincibility, long start up, and travel the entire length of the screen. And air scalpels is only truly safe from at least a character's height above, and at that point you usually can't even hit confirm. If you get deep enough for a hit confirm they CAN jump and grab you before you can do anything else, blocked scalpels were nerfed precisely to remove it as a brain dead rush down technique. Unless you want to gamble another air scalpelright after I don't think you are getting in. Do you see any competent val's using bypass scalpels that much? You have so much air mobility it's just a crutch. If you can't get in with her movement but you can get in with a bypass then you're opponent is bad and you aren't using her options effectively.
 
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now now... we're starting to get kinda off topic

(Mod edit: I think you mean that the topic has been... bypassed...)
 
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This is more on topic than most off topic posts, it can easily be made relevant. A lot of the dislike of val's lvl 5 is because of her meter usage, and bypass scalpels is a huge part of a lot of vals' tools. If she can get in with mobility and assists instead of meter then it increases the hance she can use the lvl 5. Admittedly I still am not a fan of it, but a careful val can get 5 bars more often than if they tried abusing bypass scalpels.
 
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I feel at the very least we might see people start seeing this as more plausible because val might be snapped out more often than other characters. This all depends on if its worth the meter to get a snap in reset instead of a normal reset and if forcing val to be an assist is worth it as well. It's probably pretty situational, but as the community gets better it is possible.

I guess that gets into the issue of determining when a val should be snapped out, but that's probably more of a fit for the general discussion thread.
 
Eh, I don't think snaps are going to be huge against trio teams, unless the idea is to screw up DHC synergy or snap in a bleeding assist, since good trios should really be two teams in one (if you lose any one character, the other is an effective duo). Val level 5 would be most likely against duos, where the second character is snapped in and forced to play with a weaker assist so you can deal with solo Val afterwards.
 
Like I said, its gonna be situational. It has to be decided on a team by team and player by player basis. If their val is ass then you shouldn't even bother snapping, among other things.
 
off topic but i really like snapping valentine out, and do so a lot because she's just too good of a point.

her mobility and neutral options with assist are so amazing, i feel like one the best things to do against val is put her in the only position she sucks at; not in the game.

i feel way more confident against a good val if she is forced to come in at some point. her assists are pretty lackluster and her DHC synergy is nothing to brag about, so worst case scenario for me they have to spend two bars to get val in safely.

of course, if i start seeing more level 5 tactics, i will change my tune.
 
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DukeMagus said:
point taken

Skip to 2:00


We have a productive discussion here. Sure the level fives are powerfull, but enough to risk the time and the arsenal of lower level blockbusters?

To me these are the high-level Blockbusters that are not much used.

-Peacock's level 3.
-Valentine's level 2 counter and level 5 ressurrection.
-Double's level 5 and level 3.

For Peacock the issue seems to be that good players manage to extract more damage from an Argus combo following the throw than using Goodfellas.

-Experimental buffs: no throw escape if it is activate, all damage is black instead of red.

Valentine's counter. Level 1 supers can be used as cheaper counters and an ensemble can save her if it goes wrong.

-Experimental buffs: Heck, just put it at level one and see if it goes cheap or not.

Ressurrection: Costs a full bar, must be properly placed (hard to combo and ressurrect), life restored is one combo away from death.

-Experimental buffs: Larger amount of life restored, bigger damage, level 4

-Double's moai. Too costly. Cat heads, cars and team eat the bar first.

-Experimental buffs: Level 4.

-Nightmare legion. Same reasons of level 5.

-Experimental buffs: Reduce damage scaling to sweet it to combos.
 
The other characters stronger supers are mainly used as damage enders to get an easy kill, I think they're fine the way they are. I don't think its a good idea to even think about patching the game right now, we just got a huge change and it still needs to settle in. None of the supers need to be changed.
 
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Ignoring the request for super buffs, I can give a few reasons why Peacock's level 3, Double's Level 5 and Val's Level 5 are useful in their current forms.

Good Fellas

  • Does a large amount of damage while giving the opponent no meter iirc, which is important to consider when you're killing a member of a team with additional members remaining; triple Argus does more damage, but also gives the opponent a lot of meter. "Good" players should consider this, but SG is still about maximizing damage over all else, so whatever.
  • Ignores undizzy, so you can land it regardless of the undizzy stored while the opponent can burst (and immediately block) out of triple Argus if you exceed undizzy with the SOID or L George.
Double's Level 5

  • Her only air-ok reversal, which is important since air resets are so strong.
  • Ridiculous chip and damage, allows Double to TOD solo off of a standard starter (dead character plus corner pressure is huge).

Val's Level 5

  • You gain a character back. That's trading your meter for the ability to call an assist, tag out and recover red health, possibly give you the life advantage near the end of a match...it's really good when the opportunity presents itself.

  • Double Level 3 is fine.
  • Val Level 2 leads to a full combo on success, a greater reward than landing a Flatliner or Scalpels. You're not getting combos off of those unless you set-up your team accordingly.
 
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